Tackling a Hive Fleet

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Eumerin**

If the Eldar did slingshot an asteroid out of a webway gate... and?

If the strike is accurate (i.e. faraeer assisted), then one, or maybe two, ships get destroyed. But there are likely plenty of redundancies in each swarm of ships. It would be like firing a bullet into a swarm of insects.

**Flinty**

It’s back to targeting the Norn Queen. If the rock is big and fast enough, it means that smaller escort ships can’t get in the way to save the bigger beasties. The Eldar are sophisticated enough to be able to identify the key ships. On the other hand throwing rocks seems a little beneath them

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clouds of monofilament fibres travelling at relativistic speed seems more their style. Instant space chowder!

**Eumerin**

Only works if there's only one norn queen. I suspect most swarms have multiples on different ships for redundancy.

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

Probably, that would still hurt it a lot though, should it be in terms of pure price tags

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Loathe as I usually am to bring up “but in the game”? I can’t stop comparing how a Hive Fleet fared in Battlefleet Gothic.

In short? One on one, the Hive Ships weren’t all that great. Provided you could keep them at a relative arms length, the engagement would be relatively one sided, as they tended to be very short ranged.

If we extrapolate that back to the Lore? I think that kind of holds up. The ships, individually, aren’t that difficult to knock holes in and kill. The difficulty is there tends to be significantly more of them than there are of you, so like on Terra firma, we see Nids excel at attrition. And many of the ships are quite chaffy. Easy to kill, but doing so doesn’t really make much impact on their wider forces.

Add in the impact of the Shadow of the Warp all but denying you any chance of reinforcement, and you really need to know your onions to make your kills really count.

Which brings me on to my next thought. potentially baiting a world or system. Now like most if not all plans suggested so far, you’re gonna be sacrificing that world more or less entirely. Certainly it’s gonna need a bloody good and thorough cleansing to begin with.

And this plan? Is letting a Genestealer Cult run its course.

In doing so, in the run up to the Day of Ascension, you can use gene scanners (confirmed to exist in the Cain novels, and aren’t noted as particularly esoteric) to keep the Cult contained to Just That World, with no Hybrids or Brood Brothers making it off world.

At the same time, you start massing assets in-system. Not just a fleet, but a Battle Group size. Once the signal is out and the Nids have arrived? Give ‘em hell. Potentially engaging them in the far reaches as they enter the system, giving you even more time to make use of your comparatively higher speeds to slowly bleed them. Engage at extreme range, withdraw, rinse and repeat, postponing a full scale naval engagement until they hit the system proper.

**Insectum7**

Laying a trap is a reasonable idea . . . but it's possible the Nids have forward scout ships. Or if you're baiting with a Genestealer cult, is it possible that a Magus or Patriarch can sense the massive number of warp disturbances of the Imperial fleet.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

There is that possibility. But…what can they reasonably do with that information?

Don’t get me wrong, this is an “ideal world” situation, which not least requires you to be able to deploy a sufficiently powerful and numerous fleet without denuding other systems of support.

If you can pull it off, the Cult can only really try to summon a larger Hive Fleet - which isn’t necessarily an undesirable outcome, as you’re trying to reduce their overall numbers as much as possible.

Certainly if your genescanning is done properly and thoroughly, you massively reduce the chance of the Cult getting off planet, or infesting your Naval assets? Heck, you could even pre-emptively virus bomb the planet, all but eliminating any risk of planetside defences being used against you.

**Altruizine**

Eumerin wrote:
Only works if there's only one norn queen. I suspect most swarms have multiples on different ships for redundancy.

From Dante:

'If I may petition you, lord commander. We could concentrate our efforts on the guiding minds of the ships, the norncraft and their queens, as we depart,’ said Dhrost. ‘If we might dismantle their command network, it shall afford you more time to reinforce Baal.’

Phaeton and Aphael shared a worried look.

‘Speak!’ said Dante to his brothers, holding up his hand. ‘While Dhrost is here, he is to be accorded the same rights as a member of our Chapter. Let the record state that the Red Council will speak freely.’

‘We have accounted for eighty per cent of the norn, brood and hive ships seen in the system, general,’ said Aphael. ‘As per standard engagement strategy when making war upon the tyranids.’

‘The hive fleet recovers quickly. How?’ said Dhrost.

‘We lack sufficient intelligence to say exactly, general, but we are certain that adaptive evolution among the tyranid swarm has made the previous strategy unworkable. It appears the tyranids have found a means to counter our destruction of their largest vessels,’ said Phaeton.

‘Theories?’ said Dante. He toyed with the bowl full of rubies set into the desk before him. The glassy rattle of them against each other was supposed to aid meditation.

‘I have two,’ said Phaeton. ‘The first is that the hive mind has devised a way of exerting its will over a larger area, with fewer intermediary vessels required as nodes in its neural network. If this is true, it may be used to our advantage. If we were to commit to multiple strikes across a broad front of several infested systems, the operation of the hive mind might be greatly disrupted. By extending its range, the hive mind has increased its vulnerability.’

‘Provide the second theory,’ said Dante.

‘They have evolved a way of spreading their neural network more widely across a given area, making it harder to disrupt,’ said Phaeton. ‘The larger ships are no longer the only nexus points for the broader synaptic web of the fleets.’

Karlaen slammed his goblet onto the table with a growl. ‘You mean that shooting the big ones will no longer work, brother-captain. Speak plainly, Phaeton.’

‘In fleet actions, yes, brother, that is the case,’ said Phaeton. ‘Shooting the big ones will no longer work.'

**Insectum7**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There is that possibility. But…what can they reasonably do with that information?

I'm not too familiar with Tyranid fleets, so specific tactics are out of my wheelhouse. But one counter strategy might be to slow down the fleet and delay interception by weeks or months while other tendrils reach for other systems in the sector, forcing the Imperial fleet to either split up to defend other areas or risk losing worlds without adequate fleet defenses. Basically, if the Imperial fleet wants to concentrate resources, that can be an opportunity for the Nids to attack undefended space elsewhere.

@Altruizine: Many Norn Queens/"Nodeships", nice.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

It’s not at all clear what the dinner bell rung by the Patriarch is actually capable of.

It could just be a push notification to Hive Fleets that their order is ready, awaiting collection - and no more than that. Just a beacon to attract them, with the inherent expectation if not completely pacified by the cult uprising, at least a world already deep at war with itself, making resistance to the Hive Fleet proper theoretically much lighter.

But? Whilst I can’t think of any evidence to directly support, it could be an information feed of greater depth. Number of worlds, known defences etc.

That’s a thread unto itself!

**JNAProductions**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s not at all clear what the dinner bell rung by the Patriarch is actually capable of.

It could just be a push notification to Hive Fleets that their order is ready, awaiting collection - and no more than that. Just a beacon to attract them, with the inherent expectation if not completely pacified by the cult uprising, at least a world already deep at war with itself, making resistance to the Hive Fleet proper theoretically much lighter.

But? Whilst I can’t think of any evidence to directly support, it could be an information feed of greater depth. Number of worlds, known defences etc.

That’s a thread unto itself!

On the one hand, Genestealer Cults are intelligent. The Patriarch is a genius-level tactician and strategist.
On the other hand, they're NOT one-to-one linked to Nids. They don't know what awaits them.

I'd err on the side of more information going to the Nids than less, though.

**Iracundus**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Loathe as I usually am to bring up “but in the game”? I can’t stop comparing how a Hive Fleet fared in Battlefleet Gothic.

In short? One on one, the Hive Ships weren’t all that great. Provided you could keep them at a relative arms length, the engagement would be relatively one sided, as they tended to be very short ranged.

If we extrapolate that back to the Lore? I think that kind of holds up. The ships, individually, aren’t that difficult to knock holes in and kill. The difficulty is there tends to be significantly more of them than there are of you, so like on Terra firma, we see Nids excel at attrition. And many of the ships are quite chaffy. Easy to kill, but doing so doesn’t really make much impact on their wider forces.

Add in the impact of the Shadow of the Warp all but denying you any chance of reinforcement, and you really need to know your onions to make your kills really count.

The Tyranid fleet in BFG acts somewhat similarly to its ground counterpart. Smaller faster ships/organisms race ahead to distract and disrupt the enemy. In BFG it is the Kraken and they can launch boarding actions and hit and run attacks, injecting Genestealers and other organisms inside enemy ships. The enemy is then occupied with Tyranids running around inside their ship or is otherwise distracted shooting at these Kraken, giving time for the slower Hive ships and their expendable escorts to close the distance. At close range, the Tyranid ships pack a decent amount of firepower with their bio-cannons and their bio-plasma ignores void shields as the shots are so slow moving they pass through the shields. If they engage in close range boarding action, they will tear through the crew while their bio-ships tear through the structure with claws.

While it may be tempting to say "Just shoot the big ones", the smaller ships are meant to make it too painful to ignore them.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

JNAProductions wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s not at all clear what the dinner bell rung by the Patriarch is actually capable of.

It could just be a push notification to Hive Fleets that their order is ready, awaiting collection - and no more than that. Just a beacon to attract them, with the inherent expectation if not completely pacified by the cult uprising, at least a world already deep at war with itself, making resistance to the Hive Fleet proper theoretically much lighter.

But? Whilst I can’t think of any evidence to directly support, it could be an information feed of greater depth. Number of worlds, known defences etc.

That’s a thread unto itself!
On the one hand, Genestealer Cults are intelligent. The Patriarch is a genius-level tactician and strategist.
On the other hand, they're NOT one-to-one linked to Nids. They don't know what awaits them.

I'd err on the side of more information going to the Nids than less, though.

I guess it depends on where the Patriarch’s knowledge comes from. After all, genius isn’t measured by the stuff you know, rather your ability to process and store information, and apply it to new and novel use. For instance, Einstein presumably wasn’t born with any inherent knowledge of physics and that. But his unique, beautiful brain allowed him to learn from others and develop things further than anyone else.

It’s entirely possible The Most Intelligent Person In The World Ever has been and gone, but because they were born somewhere with no formal education system, they lived or are living their life without ever being able to realise their potential.

But waffle aside? Another thought occurs. The Hive Mind isn’t noted to take control of the Purestrains until the invasion is on. And we know of all Tyranid forms, its Genestealers that are able to operate entirely outwith the Hive Mind. Whilst not exactly conclusive, that knowledge has me leaning toward it being a fairly basic “light in the darkness” beacon, and not a two way radio type affair. It’s also possible for a Patriarch to have never been subject to the Hive Mind. Because any Purestrain can become a Patriarch in the right circumstances, not just those directly spawned by a Hive Fleet. This then brings into question that should complex information be transmitted in the signal, whether the Patriarch and Hive Mind would be able to understand what the other is saying with any great clarity. It is possible, given genetic programming. But I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily a given, as Just A Simple Beacon is purpose enough for what the Hive Mind wants. Which is the location of a prey world.

As ever if anyone has GW or BL sources to the contrary of my thinking, let me know, because knowing more is always cool.

**Overread**

JNAProductions wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s not at all clear what the dinner bell rung by the Patriarch is actually capable of.

It could just be a push notification to Hive Fleets that their order is ready, awaiting collection - and no more than that. Just a beacon to attract them, with the inherent expectation if not completely pacified by the cult uprising, at least a world already deep at war with itself, making resistance to the Hive Fleet proper theoretically much lighter.

But? Whilst I can’t think of any evidence to directly support, it could be an information feed of greater depth. Number of worlds, known defences etc.

That’s a thread unto itself!
On the one hand, Genestealer Cults are intelligent. The Patriarch is a genius-level tactician and strategist.
On the other hand, they're NOT one-to-one linked to Nids. They don't know what awaits them.

I'd err on the side of more information going to the Nids than less, though.

I was always given to understand that the Cult has tiers - those at the very top and the Genetealer Patriarch itself should be 100% within the Will of the Hive Mind along with any purestrain Genestealers that are bred from the Cult if it reaches a maturity level capable of creating them. Because at that point they are all pure genetealers.

There's also a bit of lore in one of the older Codex that notes the new Planet sized construct has also been used as a holey site to take High ranking humans within Cults too which seems to reinforce their connection with the HiveMind/Stargods.
Which suggests that the very higher level humans at least know what the Tyranids are mostly all about (since they had to rise upon a world; have that world invaded and were then preserved whilst the rest of their Cult was likely devoured).

Indeed Tyranids preserving the upper ranks of a Cult and allowing/enabling them to escape to seed more worlds if a factor.

So the upper ranks are either fully Tyranid or as close as can be. The rest of the Cult is a whole spread from those who might have no mutations at all all the way to the heavily mutated with them having varied understandings of the Cult, its objectives and the Stargods/Tyranids.