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 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Any links? I think I want to have some nightmares.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294373-bols-have-revealed-the-annual-profit-report-of-gw/

I think we need some people to go over there and educate them. I'm really surprised to see that level of devotion at B&C, but then again it is a Space Marine focused site, so undying loyalty to the Imperium is not unexpected

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Any links? I think I want to have some nightmares.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294373-bols-have-revealed-the-annual-profit-report-of-gw/

What's with the mod threatening to lock the post if Kirby gets brought up again? Is this the only site where we're allowed to discuss the guy who's been running the show for GW for 20 years?

Business and Data Analyst for a major UK bank here. I have serious concerns about GWs future and would not support extending credit to them unless a new business plan is presented. They are showing strong signs of being in a financial death spiral and so far have not presented any evidence that they're aware of this or of a plan to combat it.

The strong sides to GW are:
- The brand
- Plastics technology (compared to the rest of wargaming)
- Legacy customer base
- UK high street dominance

I've been strongly of the opinion that GW have been operating in the Lord of the Rings bubble MK2, only this time it's the 40k bubble and it's burst. Last time they were able to use the rest of their product portfolio as leverage while restructuring their business plan, but now they have no other products. The Hobbit is dead according to the financial reports, and if Warhammer Fantasy has now dropped out of the top 5 wargames then it certainly doesn't have the ability to save GW.

GW have been running their business with extremely high prices and extremely low value compared to their competitors. The main reason that the bubble last this long is because of the social dominance of their primary product. That has now gone.

 slowthar wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Any links? I think I want to have some nightmares.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294373-bols-have-revealed-the-annual-profit-report-of-gw/

What's with the mod threatening to lock the post if Kirby gets brought up again? Is this the only site where we're allowed to discuss the guy who's been running the show for GW for 20 years?

Probably not, but holding up other forums as paragons of happy-happy joy-joy isn't a great argument unless you're intimately familiar with the moderation and know for a fact that dissenting voices haven't simply been erased.

 heartserenade wrote:
Any links? I think I want to have some nightmares.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294373-bols-have-revealed-the-annual-profit-report-of-gw/page-3

I haven't been to B&C for probably 2 years, actually this thread is quite mild apart from the ridiculously contrived pricing examples by coffeegrunt and the economist switching to acturial which is definitely a good thing for economics.

The Warhammer Forum hasn't kicked off this time round, which is good as I don't have to read any tosh by Chris Applesford, but this time round we have WhispersofBlood

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=124672

BoLS spread everything over so many clickbait blog posts I'm not going to go there right now, but any forum posts by Mr Mystery are bound to be.....irrelevant.

I just finished reading. My brain is now crying and is in a metaphorical fetal position.

To paraphrase Kirby, it only looks bad if you look at the numbers. It's like saying someone is only ugly if you look at their face.

I got to the "first rule of Bolter and Chainsword club is don't talk about Tom Kirby" post and gave up.

 slowthar wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Any links? I think I want to have some nightmares.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294373-bols-have-revealed-the-annual-profit-report-of-gw/

What's with the mod threatening to lock the post if Kirby gets brought up again? Is this the only site where we're allowed to discuss the guy who's been running the show for GW for 20 years?

Probably. Mods on B&C and Warseer seem very afraid that GW is going to come and shut them down if they say anything bad about them, and enforce almost asinine strict "Stay on target" discussion of topics, threatening to warn/ban/lock if something goes off topic even slightly or starts to bring up issues with GW people by name. Other than the GW General forums on Warseer, the place seems to be a GW Propaganda mill, not quite as bad as BOLS though.They also seem to have a very strict "Don't ever question, do as we say because we said so" kind of jackboot mentality; I recall once I asked how something was considered offtopic when it was related, and the answer was "Because <mod> said it was off topic". Not good enough reason for me.

 Azreal13 wrote:


This isn't a 40K website.

You're not even in the 40K section.

40k General Discussion - 30911 posts
WHFB - 4729
WM&H - 3625
Infinity - 788

Can we at least agree this forum has a little bit of a 40k bias? Also, this is a thread about GW, who's biggest seller is 40k. Finally, many people are posting about the issues with 40k contributing to these 'problems'. I assume they're in the wrong place too? Thanks for adding value to the thread.

They had a Kirby topic, one of the BL authors (A D-B) and another board member got into it, but they clearly had a history.

It also looks like some more stuff was posted and deleted in that topic from the way it ended and a comment in the annual report topic, so I probably wouldn't hold it against B&C in this instance.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Any links? I think I want to have some nightmares.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294373-bols-have-revealed-the-annual-profit-report-of-gw/

It's not so much the rah-rahing that's going on, but the horribly inaccurate and sometimes plainly fictitious numbers being bandied about that is truly disturbing.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:


This isn't a 40K website.

You're not even in the 40K section.

40k General Discussion - 30911 posts
WHFB - 4729
WM&H - 3625
Infinity - 788

Can we at least agree this forum has a little bit of a 40k bias? Also, this is a thread about GW, who's biggest seller is 40k. Finally, many people are posting about the issues with 40k contributing to these 'problems'. I assume they're in the wrong place too? Thanks for adding value to the thread.

Off Topic - 691652

What's your point again?

EDIT
Actually, it's 15259 in Off Topic, you said posts but quoted threads. Nevertheless, it means that random nonsense is probably one of the top two or three sections in the site, doesn't make it less a wargaming site.

EDIT 2

But there are in fact, more posts in Off Topic than 40K Discussion, just in fewer threads.

 Azreal13 wrote:


What's your point again?

I think he was just being polite and thanking you for adding value to the thread.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:


This isn't a 40K website.

You're not even in the 40K section.

40k General Discussion - 30911 posts
WHFB - 4729
WM&H - 3625
Infinity - 788

Can we at least agree this forum has a little bit of a 40k bias? Also, this is a thread about GW, who's biggest seller is 40k. Finally, many people are posting about the issues with 40k contributing to these 'problems'. I assume they're in the wrong place too? Thanks for adding value to the thread.

Off Topic - 691652

What's your point again?

In fairness though, if you ignored all the posts that include a Dakka meme, there's only like 5 posts on that board

Yes but if you remove people arguing about rule for X, mis-spelt phone texts about "I'm gonna buy x wololol" and wish-listing, you probably need to move that decimal point a couple of places to the left.

I've noticed a number of forums get turned into shelters of timid little mice by GW's fansite-smashing antics, and several that have now the equivalent of brown-shirt wearing moderators policing the content of the forum users with an iron fist. Fortunately, Dakka has remained a pretty relaxed place to discuss things in a relaxed manner (for the most part.. except when the personal digs start creeping in..). Which, I think is just as well, as I don't think any amount of snivelling and subservience will matter a damn if GW's legal teams decide a hit is in order to justify their fees for a while longer.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:


This isn't a 40K website.

You're not even in the 40K section.

40k General Discussion - 30911 posts
WHFB - 4729
WM&H - 3625
Infinity - 788

Can we at least agree this forum has a little bit of a 40k bias? Also, this is a thread about GW, who's biggest seller is 40k. Finally, many people are posting about the issues with 40k contributing to these 'problems'. I assume they're in the wrong place too? Thanks for adding value to the thread.

Off Topic - 691652

What's your point again?

I was counting threads, you counted messages. Threads in Off-Topic - 15,259. Anyway, I think this is going a little 'Off-Topic'. Maybe +1 to the thread count? Still not sure you're quite up to 40k General.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I assume they're in the wrong place too? Thanks for adding value to the thread.

Yeah. All that venom's really from the anti-GW crowd, huh?

Ok--enough sniping--back on topic please.

Ryan

*Edit* Mod message above.

Not worth it.

Regarding the BnC thread, it's not even "all is fine and unicorns and rainbows and cupcakes". At best the opinion is 50/50. It's just that the arguments of one side is, to put it frankly, mildly idiotic.

"They're been there for years, they'll be here for years to come."

Well, I'm not arrogant enough to say for certain that GW will indeed go under. But don't be arrogant to assume that they will: the numbers are pretty fething bad. Rome stood for years and years as an empire and where is Rome now? Longetivity might indicate staying power, but that doesn't mean your company is invulnerable to stupid decisions.

Yeah, that report doesn't look very good when you take the raw numbers at face value.

Uh, isn't that kind of the point?

"They're releasing all these nice stuff like 7th ed. and Space Marines, so they must be doing good!"

And they lost profit despite those releases, so... does that mean they're doing good?


I'm all for a good discussion but at least make an efort to make your arguments, I dunno, sane?

Mmm... one reason for the loss of profits is the horrible management of the company's IP in the digital realm. They should be improving royalties, not decreasing them by 75%. It's 2014, it's not really acceptable to see shrinking profits in this area. It's essentially free money, and it's not going to be improved through iPad apps.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/136515-Games-Workshop-Profits-Down-24-CEO-Happy

The relevant paragraph:

"One of the big reasons why Games Workshop has been ferocious about its IP is its arrangements with third party computer game developers, like the now-defunct THQ. Back in 2009, royalty payments on that IP made up nearly half the company's profits. Things have changed significantly since then; in fiscal year 2013 royalty payments dropped £3.5 million, going down to only £1 million, and while there was some improvement in fiscal year 2014, it was only up £0.4 million."

I predict Kirby's replacement will have experience with merchandizing and digital publishing.

 Sillycybin wrote:
Does anyone think this would be a good time to become involved in GW as a job? Would someone who understands the hobby side of things turn the company around?

I think a good CEO can sell anything, and it doesn't matter if you're into the HHHobby or not at all. What they need is a CEO who doesn't openly scoff at the idea of doing market research, advertising, or sales.

OK folks, just as a reminder - We're not keen on bashing other forums - that does nothing positive for the community.

The topic of this thread is GW's current financial report, not the quality of discussion found on other forums.

 heartserenade wrote:
Regarding the BnC thread, it's not even "all is fine and unicorns and rainbows and cupcakes". At best the opinion is 50/50. It's just that the arguments of one side is, to put it frankly, mildly idiotic.

"They're been there for years, they'll be here for years to come."

Well, I'm not arrogant enough to say for certain that GW will indeed go under. But don't be arrogant to assume that they will: the numbers are pretty fething bad. Rome stood for years and years as an empire and where is Rome now? Longetivity might indicate staying power, but that doesn't mean your company is invulnerable to stupid decisions.

Yeah, that report doesn't look very good when you take the raw numbers at face value.

Uh, isn't that kind of the point?

"They're releasing all these nice stuff like 7th ed. and Space Marines, so they must be doing good!"

And they lost profit despite those releases, so... does that mean they're doing good?


I'm all for a good discussion but at least make an efort to make your arguments, I dunno, sane?

Which is why that site is shrinking in popularity.

Now the the Crux of the matter.

The corporation will continue to shrink until the last bastion of strength is Britain. And that is where it will stagnate. They will continue to do business with those indies that will continue to buy a product to them. But the opportunity for GW to be something big died in 2006 and the beginning of reduction of quality services began. GW will not suddenly collapse but just wither away into a nationalistic and singular company brand of a game.

Their Brand could be considered TOXIC. No Multinational corporation wants to deal with plastic man dolls with this much negativity.

Next regardless on what Kirby says about resigning he WILL be involved with said corporation, so there will be no change in thought processes in management. His preamble states all that needs to be stated about his mindset.

Finally all of you White Knights out there. Your precious little game at one time could have been mainstream. Could have taught the values of working with your hands and creating beautiful items without be cast typed as one of those trolls that live in the basement that has no life.

But the greed of your god emperor Kirby has made this impossible now. You missed your chance to have wargaming become mainstream like D&D did in the 80's. The actual value of your game is in your own mind as the people are dumping their models on Ebay. They are tired of yours and the company's BS.

Business is business and I've been in business longer than many of you white knights been born. There is nothing wrong in making money. What is wrong is the shafting your customer base and how it is being done. And to many.... enough is enough within this hobby.

The years of financial mumbo jumbo will continue. GW will SHRINK back to Britain as it's last strong point. And Kirby will continue to milk to company dry.

Now I know nothing about finances whatsoever beyond business studies GCSE and a passing interest in economics, but as a "hobbyist" if I were financially invested in GW, I would not be concerned about the drop in profits - this is explained in the cost of redundancies and the website, which are one-offs.

What would bother me is the drop in revenue. Sure it picked up a bit in the second half, but it's still down on last year by a noticable amount. I would be asking only two questions. 1.Why is this? Yes the internet can speculate all it likes, but only GW management know the real figures. 2. How do we improve it? It seems strange to me, as someone with know experience in business management whatsoever, that you could have such a drop in revenue without any plan of how to increase it. Even if it's a cursory acknowledgement or some token gesture, just something to try to pull the punters in.

Personally if I were CEO, I'd probably be pretty conservative. I would hire a proper HR team to do their job properly (typical internet stuff, have a facebook page that shares peoples' paintings, c&p some old white dwarf onto the website as free content, much more communication between the rule devs and the fanbase, etc etc). I wouldn't drop prices, because imo that would act the same way as deflation does in the real economy and choke the demand as consumers wait for prices to fall further. Instead I would make prices rise gradually below inflation for a while.

I'd also streamline GW stores, chop the unprofitable ones and divert their funding into the more popular high-volume gw stores. Letting little timmies run around is fine, so long as their are other staffers available to cater to customer types - people who come in knowing exactly what they want to buy, come in, buy it and leave; other customers who might be browsing for something to buy but not nessesarily right at that moment, people who might need hobbying advice, etc etc. If you're going to spend money on personell, spend it efficiently.

Also as a hobbyist I would have the rules guys branch out into alternating rulesets for 40k - large scale, skirmish, tankhammer. I'd also have a dedicated Specialist Games section, lots of new limited edition box sets.

I kinda agree. Unless there's an incredibly massive shift, VERY quickly indeed, GW is not even going to have half a look in into making Wargaming more accessible / more mainstream now.

If anything, it's going to be - and is - Star Trek Attack Wing and X-Wing now. Even my local comic shop has started stocking them, not to mention the occasions when Waterstones (the last major high street book shop chain) has it in stock.

I wouldn't call someone insane for putting good odds on Mars Attacks being a breakout - in Europe at least. There has supposedly been crazy distributor purchases for that there.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
... H.B.M.C et al will still be predicting the end of GW...

For months I've been predicting that this report would be good, and see a big turn-around in sales compared to the half-year statement. But no no, continue to put words into my mouth.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Or maybe we just have a 'toxic' community who seek to inflate any negativity?

Or maybe we don't have our heads in the clouds drinking the GW cool-aid. And you're the one who entered the thread calling this discussion a "circle jerk", so maybe look carefully at the glass house you're in before you start throwing rocks.

 Daedleh wrote:
Business and Data Analyst for a major UK bank here.

No you're not. You're just a hater participating in circle jerk inside a toxic community! If you don't like GW, then stop playing 40K. How can you criticise a business for wanting to make money?

There. Now I've summed up the (so-called) "counter-arguments" to everything you've said, we can get back on track.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
... H.B.M.C et al will still be predicting the end of GW...

For months I've been predicting that this report would be good, and see a big turn-around in sales compared to the half-year statement. But no no, continue to put words into my mouth.

Confirmed, we thought that 7th + SMs + IG + IK etc would have been enough to lift the sinking ship up a little longer. We were wrong - it was worse than we thought. SMs *did* sell really well judging by all the painting and army threads that popped up on dakka, not to mention over a grand spent on them by me but even SMs weren't enough to do much other than reduce the losses - sales across the board must have been horrible, which is why they rushed the 7th ed release to get whatever they could into the last report. It must have been horrible before that.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

Finally all of you White Knights out there. Your precious little game at one time could have been mainstream. Could have taught the values of working with your hands and creating beautiful items without be cast typed as one of those trolls that live in the basement that has no life.

I still remember fondly the days when GW was trying to do this. I can still quote the ad for heroquest that was played during saturday morning cartoons, strange thing was, so could most of the kids from my school who had no interest in the game.
It was a missed opportunity to keep it going.
"fire of wrath"
"i'll use my broadsword"

More than 20 years on I still remember this, that's good marketing. How no marketing is better I will never know. Luxury branding is one thing, not advertising a luxury brand is another thing entirely. It's slowed. How are people supposed to know your goods are luxury items if you don't tell people they are?

 Bullockist wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

Finally all of you White Knights out there. Your precious little game at one time could have been mainstream. Could have taught the values of working with your hands and creating beautiful items without be cast typed as one of those trolls that live in the basement that has no life.

I still remember fondly the days when GW was trying to do this. I can still quote the ad for heroquest that was played during saturday morning cartoons, strange thing was, so could most of the kids from my school who had no interest in the game.
It was a missed opportunity to keep it going.
"fire of wrath"
"i'll use my broadsword"

More than 20 years on I still remember this, that's good marketing. How no marketing is better I will never know. Luxury branding is one thing, not advertising a luxury brand is another thing entirely. It's slowed. How are people supposed to know your goods are luxury items if you don't tell people they are?

This. We need adverts of a teen in a dark suit with a Rolex, surrounded by bikini models, rolling dice, possibly on a table in the back of a massive stretch limo. Then it fades to black and the words "Because I play Space Marines" fades in, followed by the GW logo.

Or at least that is what GW might think would be a good advert...