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carmachu wrote:

 Mr Hyena wrote:


But thats the thing; what really will stop bit companies from making and labelling that their bits are designed for warhammer 40k if this wins? If this happens; GW will lose alot of money; and armies will recieve less support; maybe with some even being squatted.

Patently false. GW does NOT lose money when folks buy bits from other copanies. Considering a) GW is out of the bits business for the most part, and b) every bit you buy from 3rd party producers needs you to BUY a GW kit to use. GW gains money, nots loses any.

GW will squat your army regardless.

I don't think you actually realize the quantity of bits makers out there and the range of products they actually make. Most 3rd parties produce alternate sets of legs, torsos and power plants for space marines, and they're pretty attractive. In fact they build complete models for alternate marines. Imperial guard --SPECIFICALLY imperial guard--abound like you wouldn't believe. About the only armies you'd have trouble getting from 3rd party manufacturers are Eldar, Dark eldar and Tau. If GW loses this, it's going to be a mad rush for many independents to jam some products through before GW gets it's IP protection in order and sorted out. GW's also going to have a hard time nailing down all those heads that pop up.

GW will lose money, but then this may lead GW to slash its prices to compete with the custom-made stuff. As of right now, the prices are so ridiculous that I find it better sense to buy from a third party than GW because at least I'll have a different characterful army. Suppose I want bulk terminator sorcerers to run as "thousand sons obliterators". Can't do that cheaply through gee dubya. The opening of the market won't just give GW a run for the money, but it'l open up the game and the best sculptor at the best price will get the business, so even CHS, bitspudlo, puppetswar etc may all have a run for their money. Why should I pay ridiculous shipping costs if some guy local does it to a comparable quality, and shipping is less, and the cost is comparable?

It's all just speculation from all around though. Let's get realistic, speculation only achieves one thing: Dissapointment, and a lot of it. .com bubble, japan economy bubble, housing market bubble.... the list goes on for quite a while. The reality is we won't know what the effect of this is until about 5 years after the decision is made.

EDIT:

DAMN YOU INTERNET!!!! TOP OF THE PAGE AGAIN!!!!!

The market is almost saturated with conversion bits makers (esp. when you can chose among 5+ companies making Razorback turrets, Dreadnought arms and Nazi orks). Most parts require you to pay 5times as much for GW than for conversion parts (e.g. shoulder pads). And IG? GW hasn't the copyright on normal humans in uniform.

 Lordhat wrote:
GW would be in a much better spot if they had started like Wyrd: Creating miniatures for people to collect (and perhaps use in games ala D&D) and THEN deciding to make a game (which happens to use all the models in their range). However, they wrote Rogue Trader and then afterward (maybe simultaneously) released models based on said game.

Not sure if serious, but GW started exactly as you described: First making D&D miniatures (they distributed this game in Europe), then starting with their own rules, which is Warhammer Fantasy. SciFi miniatures came much later, with Judge Dread miniatures predating Rogue Trader.

But that type of business cycle is so far in their past it doesn't have much bearing today. GW is in the business of releasing models and games together as single larger product line. Its not a chicken and the egg situation anymore... its peas and carrots or anything else that just go together.

Even if you could break down collectors vs gamers, you'd have to define what constitutes each. I have collections of armies I never really play, but I buy to play... are my purchases gamer or collector?-Its too subjective.

 aka_mythos wrote:
But that type of business cycle is so far in there [sic] past it doesn't have much bearing today.

Well it can do. For instance one of GW's claims is that they have copyright on the shape of a marine shoulder pad - its specific shape is one of the badges that demonstrates that it is their copyrightable design. Now the origins of that shape go back to the dim and distant past - the mid-80's, earlier even. The early pre-Rogue Trader Space Marine models had them, and who created the artwork that inspired them? Was that artwork a work for hire (and therefore now owned by GW and potentially protectable by them) or was copyright retained by the artist because GW *ahem* "lost" the paperwork, and therefore absolutely none of GW's business - amusingly potentially opening GW up to a counterclaim for copyright infringement by the original artist?

25 years isn't really *that* far into the past when it comes to the law.

 AndrewC wrote:
clively, I don't think thats quite fair on GW legal representation. They are, to accounts, respected and known as IP laywers. Weeble, for example, spoke well of them. However consensus is that this case is being run by a UK firm with little knowledge and an inablity to accept they're wrong.

Honestly, it wouldn't be the first time a client has lied to his lawyer.

Cheers

Andrew

I'm not entirely sure what you said that contradicts me. UK law != US Law. I wouldn't hire a US attorney to fight any type of court case in the UK, instead I'd hire a UK solicitor. For that reason alone I don't consider them competent to execute a case involving potentially huge ramifications for their client in the US. Then again, I have no idea if that team has an office in the US.

Regarding lying to the lawyer, I believe more in "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

In this case, GW corporate's stupidity in developing a game in a half ass manner and putting witnesses up that appear to have no clue what is going on within the company even in the areas of their direct responsibility. A competent attorney would have properly discussed the issues with the staff as soon as it was apparent they were actually going to court and way before actually filing documents.

A very simple example of the direct failure of the legal team is when they created the list of items they felt CHS infringed on. All it should have take is listing the CHS item with a picture, the Games Workshop trademark or copyright being infringed, the example product (in case of trademark), date of first use and proof of that date through US sales data. All of which should be available. I would find it hard to believe that a bean counter in GW doesn't know exactly how many Space Marine Tac Squads where sold in the US, broken down by state, perhaps even by economic conditions. How else are you going to figure out what your stores are doing?

Instead, they delivered a list to CHS that had pictures of their *own* products as being infringing (back of shoulder pad, tervigon kit), never produced the actual products themselves (although commanded to by the judge) and did not produce proof of sales. Combined with the list of trademarks they initially claimed CHS infringed, but GW staff later said wasn't found anywhere on CHS's site or product descriptions. Totally amateur hour by the GW legal team. It really looks like the list was put together by someone in GW trying to be helpful but unaware of the specifics of GWs product line and certainly not reviewed by anyone prior to filing it with the court.

All in all it feels like the GW legal team has simply not put in the time necessary to do this right while hoping the Judge looks at the pile of crap they did deliver in order to sort it out. Not good.

 aka_mythos wrote:
But that type of business cycle is so far in their past it doesn't have much bearing today. GW is in the business of releasing models and games together as single larger product line. Its not a chicken and the egg situation anymore... its peas and carrots or anything else that just go together.

Even if you could break down collectors vs gamers, you'd have to define what constitutes each. I have collections of armies I never really play, but I buy to play... are my purchases gamer or collector?-Its too subjective.

You are absolutely right.

Of course it means that GW cannot establish themselves as a "pure collector company". On balance, I think a jury would look at the "collectable models" and the large amount of rules and army books, and conclude that GW is not a "pure collector company".

GW lawyers always forget that they have to deal with a jury.
Noone with common sense will believe GW that toy soldiers are for collectors only, that GW owns the copyright on skulls and halberds and that second market products are illegal per se.

 poda_t wrote:

I don't think you actually realize the quantity of bits makers out there and the range of products they actually make. Most 3rd parties produce alternate sets of legs, torsos and power plants for space marines, and they're pretty attractive. In fact they build complete models for alternate marines. Imperial guard --SPECIFICALLY imperial guard--abound like you wouldn't believe. About the only armies you'd have trouble getting from 3rd party manufacturers are Eldar, Dark eldar and Tau. If GW loses this, it's going to be a mad rush for many independents to jam some products through before GW gets it's IP protection in order and sorted out. GW's also going to have a hard time nailing down all those heads that pop up.

GW will lose money, but then this may lead GW to slash its prices to compete with the custom-made stuff. As of right now, the prices are so ridiculous that I find it better sense to buy from a third party than GW because at least I'll have a different characterful army. Suppose I want bulk terminator sorcerers to run as "thousand sons obliterators". Can't do that cheaply through gee dubya. The opening of the market won't just give GW a run for the money, but it'l open up the game and the best sculptor at the best price will get the business, so even CHS, bitspudlo, puppetswar etc may all have a run for their money. Why should I pay ridiculous shipping costs if some guy local does it to a comparable quality, and shipping is less, and the cost is comparable?

It's all just speculation from all around though. Let's get realistic, speculation only achieves one thing: Dissapointment, and a lot of it. .com bubble, japan economy bubble, housing market bubble.... the list goes on for quite a while. The reality is we won't know what the effect of this is until about 5 years after the decision is made.

Ignorance on your part. I've been playing and modeling for over 20 years, with and without GW. I use ALL sorts of bits from CH to Iron dog to reaper. I have lists of 3rd party producers. Some specifically for GW. Others just make models, adn I can incorporate into armies and models. Hell citadel Journal use to advise(as well as RT era books) use of other models and parts. Nowadays GW has become hamfisted and facist about other models.

MOST of the 3rd party require GW models to use. I've got 10 awesome shields from CH for my DA army. Still need the terminators or power armor to use. Had some spore pods for a tyranid army back and needed GW models to make the function, especially since GW refuses to produce a model. I have iron dog ork tracks, that went on a GW tank/ork bit hybrid.....the list goes on and on and on. Every project w/o 3rd party wouldnt have gotten done, nor GW models bought without.

We can look at OGL in the RPG world as an example- 3rd party producers there, and the edition was the second highest one since 1st ed D&D. People came back and stayed back with a unified idea that its one big playground others got to play in. Then look at 4e after words that barely last 2.5 years and crashed and burned when they excluded 3rd party producers. Now I'll grant that thats simplifed a few things, but its something to think of.

4th Ed has lasted close to 4 years... but I totally get your point...

 Alfndrate wrote:
4th Ed has lasted close to 4 years... but I totally get your point...

The game lasted that long, but the last year or so they produced practically nothing for the game(in fact canceled many products) and the last 6 months of its life they were working on 5th I believe. But glad the point is made.

 Kroothawk wrote:
GW lawyers always forget that they have to deal with a jury.
Noone with common sense will believe GW that toy soldiers are for collectors only, that GW owns the copyright on skulls and halberds and that second market products are illegal per se.

And if you'd have asked the majority of the people at the time, no one with any common sense would have looked at the evidence and said OJ Simpson was innocent. The Legal Facts in a case don't always match up with what you think is common sense.

 Kroothawk wrote:
GW lawyers always forget that they have to deal with a jury.
Noone with common sense will believe GW that toy soldiers are for collectors only, that GW owns the copyright on skulls and halberds and that second market products are illegal per se.

The easiest evidence to show a jury that GW are full of it on this, are pictures from WD and their own website... its pictures of people playing their game. Not pictures or articles on how to display your collection. When they draw sooo much emphasis on making things uniquely yours, that is counter-intuitive to the norms of collectables.

Clively, Foley and Lardner (GWs Lawyers) are an american firm operating out of Chicago. Unfortunately they are taking instructions from GW corporate laywers in the UK (The UK firm I referred to, sorry I should have been clearer.)

This case should never have reached the stage it has. CHS should have folded as many others have in the past due to lack of funds. Now thanks to Winston & Strawns Pro Bono GW has now had to find a case with which to proceed, and poor F&L are the ones being hit with the flack.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Clively, Foley and Lardner (GWs Lawyers) are an american firm operating out of Chicago. Unfortunately they are taking instructions from GW corporate laywers in the UK (The UK firm I referred to, sorry I should have been clearer.)

This case should never have reached the stage it has. CHS should have folded as many others have in the past due to lack of funds. Now thanks to Winston & Strawns Pro Bono GW has now had to find a case with which to proceed, and poor F&L are the ones being hit with the flack.

And its really really amusing to watch GW and their lawyers flail around like clowns trying to make a case.

To make a point about GW losing money: I actually bought two rhinos just to use a kit from Puppets War.

And you know what else? I have no sympathy for GW. It is their own business practices that have got them here.

God forbid they have to actually compete for our money!

Maybe tactical squads will go back down to around $20....

 AndrewC wrote:
Clively, Foley and Lardner (GWs Lawyers) are an american firm operating out of Chicago. Unfortunately they are taking instructions from GW corporate laywers in the UK (The UK firm I referred to, sorry I should have been clearer.)

This case should never have reached the stage it has. CHS should have folded as many others have in the past due to lack of funds. Now thanks to Winston & Strawns Pro Bono GW has now had to find a case with which to proceed, and poor F&L are the ones being hit with the flack.

Cheers

Andrew

So what are Foley and Lardner's options regarding bailing out of the case due to interference from GW's lawyers and GW's (apparently) not being honest with Foley and Lardner?
I would be looking for a way out at this point...

Tim

timd wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Clively, Foley and Lardner (GWs Lawyers) are an american firm operating out of Chicago. Unfortunately they are taking instructions from GW corporate laywers in the UK (The UK firm I referred to, sorry I should have been clearer.)

This case should never have reached the stage it has. CHS should have folded as many others have in the past due to lack of funds. Now thanks to Winston & Strawns Pro Bono GW has now had to find a case with which to proceed, and poor F&L are the ones being hit with the flack.

Cheers

Andrew

So what are Foley and Lardner's options regarding bailing out of the case due to interference from GW's lawyers and GW's (apparently) not being honest with Foley and Lardner?
I would be looking for a way out at this point...

Tim

Firing the client? Nah, why waste an excellent chance for Mr. Keener to get some trial and then appellate court time on GWs dime.

I don't know how it works down in the states but up here civil lawsuits settle 80-90% of the time before trial. This is a rare chance to get to argue a whole pile of issues with a top notch firm on the other side.

czakk wrote:

timd wrote:


So what are Foley and Lardner's options regarding bailing out of the case due to interference from GW's lawyers and GW's (apparently) not being honest with Foley and Lardner?
I would be looking for a way out at this point...

Tim

Firing the client? Nah, why waste an excellent chance for Mr. Keener to get some trial and then appellate court time on GWs dime.

I don't know how it works down in the states but up here civil lawsuits settle 80-90% of the time before trial. This is a rare chance to get to argue a whole pile of issues with a top notch firm on the other side.

LOL! Thanks...I guess the key phrase is "...on GWs dime." F&L will do anything GW wants, but it all goes on the bill... and I bet GW is not happy about how big the bill is turning out to be.

Tim

timd wrote:

czakk wrote:

timd wrote:


So what are Foley and Lardner's options regarding bailing out of the case due to interference from GW's lawyers and GW's (apparently) not being honest with Foley and Lardner?
I would be looking for a way out at this point...

Tim

Firing the client? Nah, why waste an excellent chance for Mr. Keener to get some trial and then appellate court time on GWs dime.

I don't know how it works down in the states but up here civil lawsuits settle 80-90% of the time before trial. This is a rare chance to get to argue a whole pile of issues with a top notch firm on the other side.

LOL! Thanks...I guess the key phrase is "...on GWs dime." F&L will do anything GW wants, but it all goes on the bill... and I bet GW is not happy about how big the bill is turning out to be.

Tim

At this point the bill is completely GW's fault. Every time F&L have to fix some mistake or submit further papers because GW left out some detail or lied about something GW is paying for it.

Now to me, this case is damaging to F&L's reputation. But perhaps the payoff is worth that damage. Perhaps they'll make enough from GW to not care about reputation in the present.

GW got Finelawyers ™

These guys sure seem unprofessional from an outsiders point of view. You would think the judge would be getting pretty pissed by now.

 Kroothawk wrote:
GW got Finelawyers ™

That made me choke on my lunch. Well played.

12thRonin wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
GW got Finelawyers ™

That made me choke on my lunch. Well played.

Thanks! I just got a nose full of water. Stupid me for drinking while reading dakka.

The makers of finecast proudly present Finelegal. All arguements and filings guaranteed to be full of holes just like their resin.

 Kroothawk wrote:
GW got Finelawyers ™

HA!

 paulson games wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
GW got Finelawyers ™

That made me choke on my lunch. Well played.

Thanks! I just got a nose full of water. Stupid me for drinking while reading dakka.

The makers of finecast proudly present Finelegal. All arguements and filings guaranteed to be full of holes just like their resin.

Silly you! You're not supposed to poke around and examine the Finelawyer proceedings. You're supposed to accept the opaque C&D letter and settle out of court, and only after getting home and looking through the proceedings find out that it's full of holes.

EDIT: Since for some reason a half-dozen posts were deleted, here's a repost of the Finelawyer (tm) pic for the poster looking to use it as a sig:

Trying to get the thread back on-topic...

 wowsmash wrote:
These guys sure seem unprofessional from an outsiders point of view. You would think the judge would be getting pretty pissed by now.

Aye, I'm a little surprised at how much rope he has given GW thus far.

The way I see it, law itself is complicated, and IP law is particularly complex at the moment.

A Judge is likely to allow a bit of leeway to a plaintiff because he is not going to be completely familiar with the procedure.

That might actually go for the lawyers too, right now. IP laws are crazy at the moment.

With regards to game vs collector pieces:


http://ia600407.us.archive.org/32/items/gov.uscourts.mowd.65382/gov.uscourts.mowd.65382.65.0.pdf

"Indeed, Defendant’s very reason for selling miniatures offered in connection with GW’s marks was to benefit from the commercial magnetism that those miniatures and marks have developed in the gaming community."

"As a result of their inherent and acquired strength, and their ability to uniquely identify GW in the gaming field, GW’s trademarks and miniature designs are entitled to the widest scope of protection."

And the kicker - the miniatures are 'game related merchandise"

"3. For example, WARHAMMER 40,000 is a complex science-fiction war-strategy game set in the forty-first millennium featuring a futuristic war with human and alien warrior combatants in a fictional galaxy. (Verified Complaint, ¶ 8; Bennett Dep. at 7:3-10.)

4. GW also offers a vast selection of game-related merchandise, including books, templates, game cards, and a wide range of meticulously designed and crafted miniatures, such as model warriors, weapons, vehicles, and machines (“GW Miniatures”). (Verified Complaint, ¶ 11.)"

Wanna buy some chess-rules related merchandise

Next, the Finelawyers™ will claim GW being a church needing special protection for their religious symbols

I just await the day that DC has a Warhammer themed organization, they seem so to enjoy that(Checkmate, Royal Flush Gang).