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Mark Has said that he's combining a lot of pieces in the kits for parts reduction.

This is sad, as I see this as the end of a good product.

The issue is was DFG a game company or a model company?

As a game company they never made a game usable with their models.

As a model company they make great models......but for what?

The problem as I see it is "what happened to the G part of DFG"? Without a game these great plastic highly detailed miniatures became essentially unusable.

The troopers fill in for guard...until GW finally, someday retools the guard. Even then they really only work as scions because of the armor.

The heavy troops? I guess you could use them as terminators.....sort of

The APC....super cool....but what do you do with it?

That flying Zug is a block of Resin.....no where near as nice as the APC and its variants with the detailed internals, not to mention the ease of plastic.

I backed the kickstarter and was hoping for a cool new game that never materialized. Without the game I just dont see much use for the minis.

If you are going to make models (especially injected plastic with its high initial investment) ....they need to be useful, either as stand ins for something else, or pieces for your own game. These accomplished neither particularly well. They were totally drool worthy kits mind you, especially when they came out. Besides sitting on the shelf looking cool, I dont know what else you can really do with them.....and that means you are not going to sell the numbers needed to justify the injection molds for high quality plastic.

I applaud the effort as I honestly feel that these made GW step up their game in a lot of ways....but in the end, these are going to sit on my shelf and never get used.

Make a game DFG!

DFG is a 1-man shop, where the core capability is models design and manufacture. Not rules-writing, which is a totally separate skill. All of which requires money to put into place. I'm sure Mark did his best, and is still doing his best to keep the line moving.

I think it's unfortunate that he won't at least KS the FlugStuG (only), but then, I'm not responsible for the success and delivery.

Mark did put out feelers for writers/rules content a few years ago, but that seemingly went no where.

Putting money into a game to go along with minis isn't a magic ticket to the success train either even if you've got experience, have connections, and do alot of things right as a result. Just look at Dakka's own Maelstrom's Edge; I obviously don't have any sales data but I anecdotally don't see anyone talking about it except occasionally here and haven't seen it offered for sale either locally or on the major online retailers last I checked.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Mark did put out feelers for writers/rules content a few years ago, but that seemingly went no where.

Yeah, the timing on that was unfortunate, as I'd be willing to work on it now, but wasn't ready then.

I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool. While many of us have tons of miniatures we don't use........Im pretty sure we all dreamed of using them. That hope is important to get the first buy....usefulness actually gets us to keep buying. Im talking in mass quantities here.

That Zug......blech. Dont get me wrong it looks cool, but its just going to be a big block of resin, compared to the apc.......its a step backwards and again what am I going to use it for? If it was plastic and super detailed with internals like the APC I might buy ONE for the hell of it. I look at that and anymore, I consider it a game piece, not a model (with lots of details and bits and internals)....But there is no game for it.

I really think the best bet for mark is to figure out what the models are for...If they are just going to be stand ins for existing games, thats fine. There are companies that totally survive on that....but you have to make them useful in that way if you want to sell a lot.

If the models are going to be for a game he need to flesh out the background, rules and faction and do another kickstarter featuring the game and new fleshed out factions. I'm not saying its a silver bullet, especially in a crowded market where there are now 2 dozen kickstarters everyweek. There are however a lot of people that already have DFG stuff so they would probably give it a shot. Again the minitures he put out in that kickstarter are stellar (for the most part)....I just wish I had a use for them. Its one thing to buy something like one Leviatan to put on your shelves.......its another to expect people to buy whole armies.....to only ever put on your shelves.

I personally never liked the look of the miniatures for malestorms edge. If your minitures are not good....im not going to look at the game...which may be shortsighted on my part...but I feel im also representative of the market.

Mark hit a good envelope, GW was not making great stuff at the time. They have since stepped up their game quite a bit in almost everyway, from miniature production to games design, to niche coverage, I mean they have a game for everything now. ....the door for doing a high quality game, with high quality plastic miniatures may be closing. Maybe find a partner. I dont know.....but I think it would be a shame if those molds and his ideas go to waste.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

The troopers fill in for guard...

Except they don't, because they're completely out of scale.

That was the big problem with Dreamforge, for me... I loved the designs, but the troopers were entirely the wrong scale to use them in anything I currently have, so I never bought more than the first metal unit way back when.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Mark did put out feelers for writers/rules content a few years ago, but that seemingly went no where.

Yeah, the timing on that was unfortunate, as I'd be willing to work on it now, but wasn't ready then.

Did he at least respond to your inquiry? I got a big fat slice of silence from my submission.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Mark did put out feelers for writers/rules content a few years ago, but that seemingly went no where.

Yeah, the timing on that was unfortunate, as I'd be willing to work on it now, but wasn't ready then.

Did he at least respond to your inquiry? I got a big fat slice of silence from my submission.

I never inquired, as I just wasn't ready to do so when he asked. If he asked tomorrow, I'd throw my hat in the ring.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool.

I'd guess most 40K minis don't ever see a board to play. And most games will never be big enough to drive mini sales. There is a market for cool models, but 28mm is not part of that market.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool.

I'd guess most 40K minis don't ever see a board to play. And most games will never be big enough to drive mini sales. There is a market for cool models, but 28mm is not part of that market.

Unquestionably true. If we go through the Closet of Shame that most wargamers have, why, that alone can be 2x what they have built and playable, which itself can be 2x what actually hits the tabletop.

I, for one, am always delighted when something hits the tabletop!

 Chairman Aeon wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool.

I'd guess most 40K minis don't ever see a board to play. And most games will never be big enough to drive mini sales. There is a market for cool models, but 28mm is not part of that market.

I buy minis that look cool and serve no other purpose. I do not even pretend I am going to play most games I buy minis for. I've got a decent amount of DFG minis because they are a joy to assemble and convert, and they look like a perfect mix of Star Wars, WW2 and 40k.

I also buy Maelstrom's Edge minis despite having no intention to play that game.

While I obviously don't speak for every customer, I have a different perspective than yours, and in my anecdotal experience one that is fairly common.

Yup I buy cool stuff even when I know it's never going to get played with


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: (or if i'm honest has a real chance of just sitting in a box forever)

Sometimes I buy a box of minis just to shut up that nagging voice in the back of my head.

I have some DFG stuff too, but the smattering of kits I bought wouldn't be enough to sustain a company putting out HIPS kits on the regular.

Everyone else saying they bought some DFG kits, did you buy a lot? Did you buy in quantities similar to how people buy GW kits? Because those are the types of sales you'd need to make a HIPS line profitable. And sadly rules do drive sales of models.

If the range was spin-cast metal you could try and appeal to the proxy crowd, but for the expenses put into the offerings DFG has, a game absolutely needs to drive the sales of these kits. Proxying alone isn't enough to justify their existence. Which sucks, because the kits are lovely. The infantry accessory kit with the robot mules is one of my favorite. It is a gold mine for conversions and the robo-mules are super useful for all sorts of games.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Chairman Aeon wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
I get that its difficult. But you cant really expect people to buy mass quantities of miniatures that serve little to no purpose besides looking cool.

I'd guess most 40K minis don't ever see a board to play. And most games will never be big enough to drive mini sales. There is a market for cool models, but 28mm is not part of that market.

I buy minis that look cool and serve no other purpose. I do not even pretend I am going to play most games I buy minis for. I've got a decent amount of DFG minis because they are a joy to assemble and convert, and they look like a perfect mix of Star Wars, WW2 and 40k.

I also buy Maelstrom's Edge minis despite having no intention to play that game.

While I obviously don't speak for every customer, I have a different perspective than yours, and in my anecdotal experience one that is fairly common.

Oh, I hear you, but also thats a limited thing. I think most people buy them with the ultimate intention of using them some day. Do most gamers have a closet of umbuilt stuff.....you bet. That doesnt however sell enough kits to legitimize tooling for hi quality plastic kits.

From what I get hes just not selling enough. Its not a lack of quality on the miniature end that for sure. I can only guess its a lack of utility and lack of intrest in a product with a lack of utility. Again I dont know if a game is a silver bullet, but I think it would increase exposure, utility and interest.

I bought a whole army of this stuff.....and while super cool...it sits on a shelf. I dont play guard, I wanted to play this. Had a game come out, I would have probably bought more.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I have some DFG stuff too, but the smattering of kits I bought wouldn't be enough to sustain a company putting out HIPS kits on the regular.

Everyone else saying they bought some DFG kits, did you buy a lot? Did you buy in quantities similar to how people buy GW kits? Because those are the types of sales you'd need to make a HIPS line profitable. And sadly rules do drive sales of models.

If the range was spin-cast metal you could try and appeal to the proxy crowd, but for the expenses put into the offerings DFG has, a game absolutely needs to drive the sales of these kits. Proxying alone isn't enough to justify their existence. Which sucks, because the kits are lovely. The infantry accessory kit with the robot mules is one of my favorite. It is a gold mine for conversions and the robo-mules are super useful for all sorts of games.

I don't know how most people buy GW, but I bought a lot. I would buy more Black Widows/panzerjagers, but they disappeared before I got to order more. I've got three boxes of Valkir, a similar number of storm troopers, one or two support weapons squads, a command box and a panzerjagers box, about 21 mules (in various states of conversion), two leviathans, and 5 or 6 of the 3-up sized Valkir, aiming for 18 in good time. (I also bought a couple of boxes of WGF Germans and Russians from DFG to use as Navy officers and Rebels.). If that's not sustainable custom for a miniatures company, I give up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Andrew, why not play a free rule set like One Page Wargames? There are a lot of free or cheap rule sets out there that let you have a great time with the minis you already own.

If DFG had a link to a free rule set and a suggested counts-as list, would that make the miniatures more palatable?

Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to adapt a simple ruleset to cover DFG's models, heck, one could easily use GW's Age of Sigmar as the core engine. Or Space Hulk / Kill Team. Just need the Datasheets.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I have some DFG stuff too, but the smattering of kits I bought wouldn't be enough to sustain a company putting out HIPS kits on the regular.

Everyone else saying they bought some DFG kits, did you buy a lot? Did you buy in quantities similar to how people buy GW kits? Because those are the types of sales you'd need to make a HIPS line profitable. And sadly rules do drive sales of models.

If the range was spin-cast metal you could try and appeal to the proxy crowd, but for the expenses put into the offerings DFG has, a game absolutely needs to drive the sales of these kits. Proxying alone isn't enough to justify their existence. Which sucks, because the kits are lovely. The infantry accessory kit with the robot mules is one of my favorite. It is a gold mine for conversions and the robo-mules are super useful for all sorts of games.

I don't know how most people buy GW, but I bought a lot. I would buy more Black Widows/panzerjagers, but they disappeared before I got to order more. I've got three boxes of Valkir, a similar number of storm troopers, one or two support weapons squads, a command box and a panzerjagers box, about 21 mules (in various states of conversion), two leviathans, and 5 or 6 of the 3-up sized Valkir, aiming for 18 in good time. (I also bought a couple of boxes of WGF Germans and Russians from DFG to use as Navy officers and Rebels.). If that's not sustainable custom for a miniatures company, I give up.

Neat! How many people in your play group did the same? How many DFG armies do you see out in the wild either in stores or on blogs and forums? You seem to be pulling your weight but most of us didn't. I know I originally bought a Leviathan for use as a Knight titan, and then Knight titans got released. I had good luck using the Black Widows as Inquistor models, but otherwise I had an existing IG army so didn't need to expand further.

Out of curiosity did you buy in big because you were waiting for a rule set, for proxying or just because?

Also, what are you planning for the 18 large size Valkir? A large scale Inquisitor style game? Cause that would be cool.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


Neat! How many people in your play group did the same? [snip]

Out of curiosity did you buy in big because you were waiting for a rule set, for proxying or just because?

Also, what are you planning for the 18 large size Valkir? A large scale Inquisitor style game? Cause that would be cool.

1. Play Group? Uh...

I do know other people in real life who buy minis, neither of them bought in bigger than a leviathan or two and maybe some troops.

2. I bought a sampling of minis during the Kickstarter and then had so much fun with them that I kept buying more over time. I've gotten so much use out of the upgrade kits, especially using the hands and robots with other lines' kits, that I keep getting them when they are on sale. I'm mostly building a range of minis that feel like a 40k/Star Wars mashup just for the satisfaction. If they ever get played, I'll be surprised. So, just because?

3. Converting with various bits (Ravenwing sprue, Daemon princes, Gundam) to make Primarchs. Realistically, I won't ever get a full 18 because some Primarchs bore me. I'm thinking of creating some variants just to be weird/use bits.

I love me some DFG but I will agree on the whole it simply suffers from the basic conundrum.

Look at the frequent Kickstarters for various 'games'. Many of these 'games' are complete gak and are just used to advertise random miniatures. You very often have great miniatures with a gak game because the goal has never been the game, just a desire to produce some cool minis. While there are plenty of ways to make use of DFG miniatures, it's just not a big enough market - and they were never sold with actual baddies or opponents...which could have helped.

They also weren't blatantly obvious substitutes for another major game. You could shoe-horn some into 40K, but DFG has always been , as mentioned above, solidly in the "cool but why?" category. I have owned maybe 3-4 different boxes at one point, but all have eventually been sold off because I didn't have much to do with them. That's a lot to ask of a small time manufacturer.

I did entertain doing up an army for a cool alien opposition for Horus Heresy at one point.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
2. I bought a sampling of minis during the Kickstarter and then had so much fun with them that I kept buying more over time. I've gotten so much use out of the upgrade kits, especially using the hands and robots with other lines' kits, that I keep getting them when they are on sale. I'm mostly building a range of minis that feel like a 40k/Star Wars mashup just for the satisfaction. If they ever get played, I'll be surprised. So, just because?

That is pretty impressive, but you have to admit that you likely are an outlier. Most people don't buy an army-sized lot of models for the heck of it, and the people who do likely aren't big enough in number to support a company's HIPS line.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

3. Converting with various bits (Ravenwing sprue, Daemon princes, Gundam) to make Primarchs. Realistically, I won't ever get a full 18 because some Primarchs bore me. I'm thinking of creating some variants just to be weird/use bits.

Ah, that is a pretty cool idea! Have you posted any of the WiP pieces yet?

 Elbows wrote:
and they were never sold with actual baddies or opponents...which could have helped.

Agree with your entire post but especially this part. The Shadowkesh (am I spelling that correctly?) would have been super helpful in getting this line off the ground.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

That is pretty impressive, but you have to admit that you likely are an outlier. Most people don't buy an army-sized lot of models for the heck of it, and the people who do likely aren't big enough in number to support a company's HIPS line.

They likely are, given that the line in question was launched through Kickstarter, unless the KS funding goal didn't actually cover the production cost.

Hard to say, but I suspect the KS covered the tooling, but not a typical production run of 2000-5000 each sets. He may have barely broken even after what he spent to produce non-KS kits for retail/distribution. I don't think he was flush with cash, or he'd have been able to push the Shadokesh and IronCore game system into production.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to adapt a simple ruleset to cover DFG's models, heck, one could easily use GW's Age of Sigmar as the core engine. Or Space Hulk / Kill Team. Just need the Datasheets.

Thats not really the point though. DFG need to be able to sell mass quantities of miniatures to justify the cost of tools and printing...without a game, without a good game, I just don't see that happening. If they were at least useful as proxies that would be one thing.....but they really are not besides the basic troopers, which may not be perfect guard scion stand ins, but they will work.

He could go back to the Kickstarter well, but thats become pretty saturated with full fledged products.

Why would anybody buy the Shadowkesh though? Ive got a few from the Kickstarter, which was another cool mini....but its not really useful without rules.

Dude, I don't know what you're trying to get at. KS is specifically to cover tooling or whatever, and it can cover a game or a single model. Simple rulesets can be good, often are. And has been well established, people will buy cool stuff, playable or not. But really, I don't know why you're even replying.

I, personally, have 95 Eisenkern (60 troops, 15 command squads/tempestors, and another 20 alternate weapons just in case I want to mix it up a bit) minis which I use as Militarum Tempestus (melee and special weapons courtesy of Mad Robot Miniatures), and 2 Keilerkopf APC's which substitute as Taurox Primes, so I did my part - but yeah the lack of a ruleset to support the minis coupled with the design choices that were made which made the miniature line less than convenient to use as 40k alternatives probably severely limited his sales.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Hard to say, but I suspect the KS covered the tooling, but not a typical production run of 2000-5000 each sets.

That would have been an odd choice, given that a production run would have been required to fill the KS rewards...

If you look at the KS, he only had about 1,000 confirmed orders, but HIPS production runs are 2,000 to 5,000 for best price per pop.

I'm guessing that the KS covered the tooling, along with the first 1,000 orders. But I'm not sure about the next 1,000+ which would have been out of Mark's pocket.