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 Valhallan42nd wrote:


I'm sure that Wyrd's push for Gencon product also was a factor.

Don't forget that Tablescapes has hired them to cut and cast all of those terrain tiles. The Tablescapes Kickstarter updates have stated that each tile takes a tremendous amount of milling time.

On top of all of that outside work they also have their own in house kits, such as the Post Apocalyptic Women that made it to Gencon as well.

For me the bottom line is that if a new project or KS looks like it's heading for WGF, expect delays but good quality when it's actually delivered.

This sort of thing makes me more wary in a lot of ways of going in on a second DFG KS. Since WGF treat it like "their" project, it seems all the work-for-hire goes in over the top of it in terms of priorities.

 ironicsilence wrote:
if they found a way to make a coupon work that would allow us to add wave 3 stuff....yikes i'd be handing over lots of cash

Agreed! Although, it looks like it would be a coupon to buy Wave 3 (or maybe any?) Dreamforge items, but not shipped together with KS orders.

Azazelx, see Mark's reply earlier... my hope is that WGF is not redirecting effort that could be used for work on his project to others, but rather adding new capacity (still sucks that they're not putting it all into finishing the projects in the order they were received, though):

Mark Mondragon wrote:Regarding WGF and DFG:
WGF is committed to producing not just the current items but in producing the rest of the range. The delays have been a real problem and have been very stressful and not good for me or my company as this industry wants/demands to see regular releases. Delays aside they have been great to work with and are getting better…. I have an account rep that contacts me nearly every day regardless of whether or not there is any new items to discuss.

Here is what I can tell you, they have been expanding as fast as possible. They brought in 4 or 5 new CnC machines and are purchasing a new EDM machine. They quadrupled the number of CAD designer/mold split workers but in order to pay for that expansion they took on new cash clients. This did not mean that I had access to these new personnel as they were brought in to deal with the new work load, as the new work is completed they ‘may’ become available to move between existing and new work. I am not saying I like the situation but I understand it from a business standpoint. You need capitol to grow a business and that does not mean that any new resources suddenly become available to the legacy projects.This is a call that WGF has to make as to how much and when these new resources can be assigned. There are some short term benefits from this growth such as machine time but the cad work area where my models fall has not seen the same growth because there are not as many clients making items that need large complex Solidworks files. We may see the heavy trooper turn around improved as that is another side of the house.

Having said all of that I think both WGF and myself grossly overestimated their production capacity or underestimated the amount of work and molds needed to complete the KS at the time we started this project, sufficed to say, lessons learned, I will not be running another KS without having the items in T1 production, I.e. Here is a test shot of the plastic….
I am not making excuses for myself or WGF, just trying to inform you the best I can as to why we are where we are and where we are heading past this initial KS.

Thank you again for your understanding
Mark

seems like this was all just the perfect storm for WGF, correct me if I'm wrong but they "picked up" a crap load of new business in the last year

@RT

Yeah, I saw that. Given the delays and amount of hopeful updates, I'm going to stay cynical on this one. Even Mark doesn't sound especially hopeful, and whichever way you cut it, it puts this already-severely-delayed project pretty clearly in the low priority bin. While this makes "sense" from a business standpoint, since we've already paid them, while other clients are no doubt paying in ongoing installments - but it doesn't bode well for the attitude of WGF when it comes to "internal" and "already paid for" projects.

Remember when we talked about Wave 2 being in June or July, and hopefully getting Wave 3 before Christmas 2013? Oh, for those heady and innocent days. My new next bet for Wave 3 fulfilment is Q2 2014.

So given the kinds of delays we've experienced here, and my total lack of faith in the ability of any KS to deliver both quality product and on-time, I'd be very wary of backing a second DFG KS rather than just buying at retail if I still have the enthusiasm for the products when they come out a year or more later.

EDIT: Refreshed way too late for this party.

Am I frustrated at the delays? Yes

Knowing what I know, would I do it again? Yes

Would I love a coupon for more online purchases? Yes

Do I understand why there are delays? Yes

As to the coupons, I would like to see a % discount for future DF stuff. I don't know that I want to send money WGFs way unless its at the DF line. If its a set amount ($10 off) then I'd take a WGF order, but all said and done, I'm actually kinda loyal to Mark, but in the kid-brother way that allows me to groan, rage, and vent when I'm unhappy or disappointed.

I get the reasoning on the WGF additional resources going to new cash in hand projects, but that's very unhanded IMO. You can't do that type of manufacturing prostitution in many other fields and I find it just plain dirty. No one needs to explain how capital and overhead works, I get it, but holding an extra month of debt to settle outstanding orders can be and should have been done. I'll never order another WGF miniature again from any other line they produce.

I think another problem for DFG is that this was supposed not to kickstart only a product line, but also a game that came with it. Pushing the game back this way also hurts sales.

This, however, is not how WGF sees its market. They have kits, and few of them thematically linked together, true, but there is not system into which they all plug in. So from their point of view, they can just keep on chugging a kit here, a kit there, they are not a Wargames Workshop, just a miniature company.

If there are going to be delays like this, I don't think a second KS is warranted at all. There might as well just be the "here's what's in the pipeline for 2015" website, while he develops the game and WGF releases a few kits at a time. Because even if they are committed to his product, it's only miniatures to them.

Anyway, just my 5¢.

I wish they would sell those kits around here, I could use one of those ersatz titans for the Sunday Funday next month.

@Zwei

I truly am sorry that things have gotten to the point of feeling the level of frustration you do. I can and do understand the frustration of the delays, I have tried to be as up front as I can and provide the most accurate information I could based on what I know. The point of a Kickstarter is not to endlessly frustrate their backers and I loath the thought of making something that was intended to be a positive experience into something less than acceptable.

If I am understanding you correctly, the crux of the issue is that you do not have the items you backed due to the delays as you have items coming in stage two and you chose ship when complete to save some shipping charges based on information that was given to you for the expected delivery date.

We expect be shipping stage 2 late next week and had you contacted me earlier I have no doubt that we could have worked with you to find an acceptable resolution, Indeed some of the options you suggest would have been options I would have been happy to explore. Expressing your disappointment in the eleventh hour was unfortunate timing.

As to the other points on how the delays have been handled, that is a matter of opinion and I will not attempt to rob you of your opinions or disparage your frustration with statements that you will likely not find agreeable.

Stage 2 shipping late next week... woot! Nothing for me in it, but I want to buy some 15mm Crusaders

Thanks for that info Mark, althou I too have nothing to get in this wave, the more so in the next one!!!

Glad for those who will get their goodies, as it means that I won't have much time left to finally sart painting all those great Stormtroopers!!
Hehe...Need some time as all those fab APCs need passengers to deploy.

 RiTides wrote:
Stage 2 shipping late next week... woot! Nothing for me in it, but I want to buy some 15mm Crusaders

I am more excited for renders of stage 3 that he is waiting on releasing!

No stage 2 stuff here either.

Thanks Again Mark, Eagerly awaiting gun options as I started painting my leviathan finally and have wired it up for lights I cant wait to get some of the 15mm guys and/or a Mortis.

I see a lot of slamming on WGF, I have made a few mistakes with this Kickstarter but choosing WGF as my manufacturer was not one of them.

Just to give some perspective. The number of man hours required to complete this project are staggering. When you consider the output of other plastic mini manufacturers and how many kits they release each year, this project and its scope was a bit too ambitious for the short period of time allotted between stages. So far between stage 1 and 2 we will be releasing 15 kits (if memory serves) with a total of about 80 hard tools to complete what we have so far, that is an average of about 1.6 tools per week!

I know that the bottom line for many of you is a quality product delivered in a timely manner. I feel we nailed the quality but there is not much that can be done about the delays at this point. This is not an issue with WGF as much as the complexity of what I am asking them to produce. Had I dropped this project on another manufacturer, I have no doubt that we would be in the same spot with the delays but with a far inferior product.

Agreed Mark, the quality you've delivered from WGF has been amazing and I hope the partnership continues. Cheap, fast, good - pick two. I'll take cheap and good any time, and your kits are beyond good. If speed can be improved in the future, great. If not... the quality has been worth the wait.

Games Workshop only releases what, roughly 5 troop sized plastic kits with a new army release in general? They're the big player in the industry, so even coming close to that is pretty impressive imo.

wave 2 shipping next week? i have the weirdest boner right now...

 gigasnail wrote:
wave 2 shipping next week? i have the weirdest boner right now...

Fingers crossed at the end of the week but that may be a little ambitious? I submitted the final box art today. The printer will need to run the job (in China) and get the boxes to WGF China. The plastic for the kits has been or is being run now, they will box up the kits and instructions and begin shipping form China to the Pacific Rim while sending a plain loaded with the arms for the Kickstarter backers. The unknowns here are: How long the printer will take to turn around the order and how fast they can package up the orders for shipping to the US warehouse and the Pacific Rim countries.

I will update here and on the KS when I have more info.

@mark: hey, hope springs eternal, right?

as a side note, any news on the rule set for Iron Core? i have people interested on the strength of the model kits alone, but they're vet gamers and are looking for a tight, well-tooled rule set.

Look a it this way, Mark.
The delays on this project and the waves have continued to blow out pretty significantly. So even in a place like this, people will occasionally need to vent and blow off some steam. You'll note that the vast majority are choosing not to aim their frustration at you personally, but at WGF - which is actually objectively not unreasonable when we have been waiting close to a year and see the stuff we pledged for that long ago being leapfrogged in the production queue by more recent "cash money" projects.

But yeah, people will occasionally need a chance to vent, given the circumstances. Speaking for myself at least, I've gotten most of it out of my system for the time being. While I still stand by the content of my posts, I'm largely going to go back to waiting quietly and occasionally making semi-serious smart arse remarks about Wave 3 shipping next Septober...

I hear you Azazelx and I think Zwieschneid has a right to complain. I can empathize with anyone who paid for a product nearly a year ago and still has not received their order….. Honestly it’s a bit absurd to assume that most people are not torqued off their rocker about the project creep.

At the end of the day it is my responsibility. Zweischneid alluded to the poor handling of the delays, I have had projects in the past go over the estimated delivery date and been in a position to offer refunds or more incentives to say thank you for waiting. Unfortunately, with this project I am not in the same position. The funds from the Kickstarter have been handed to WGF to pay for the molds and has already been spent as the Kickstarter did not completely cover the tooling costs.

I am a bit protective of WGF because I know they are moving this as fast as they can and when I am able to pull myself away from it and look at the project and the relationship with fresh eyes I realize how lucky I am to be doing what I am doing and to have a manufacturer as committed and supportive WGF has been to this project. That is not to say we do not have our arguments or exchanges, this is after all a very expensive and stressful project with a huge amount of work by everyone involved.

I will tell you, WGF gets it…. They do everything they can to help get the project completed as fast as possible and have gone further than most would to try and make good on their promise to me and to you. The most recent example is the air shipment from China to the Pacific Rim and the air shipment of the arms to the US to try and save some time on delivery are all being handled out of pocket by Wai Kee and WGF. The Shadokesh and Ada figures from the Kickstarter, also paid for by WGF.

If it sounds like I am cheerleading, I suppose on some level I am. Wai Kee, John, Daisy and Paul keep a pretty low profile. I have grown quite fond of all of them and my poorly chosen words in an earlier post had the unintended consequence of opening up speculation as to lack of support… That was not the intent or the reality.

I may not have deep pockets but I do have broad shoulders and I am fine with the occasional venting rant or frustrated attack.

If only there was a picture or render Mark could release to distract everyone! ; )

 NoseGoblin wrote:
my poorly chosen words in an earlier post had had the unintended consequence of opening up speculation as to lack of support

You sound like our new prime minister! /kid

If only, Yonan . I assume we'll see something shortly after Wave 2 ships!

Mark, since wave two is getting boxed up right now, are they immediately switching to wave three stuff? That would go a long way to show that you are a priority, not moving your team to help another project along that is. I don't have anything in wave three, but would love to get som black widows and the heavy troopers and hanomags and .........everything else.

Well... they could spend a few minutes running more Adas and Shadokesh... I know I'd use them, at any rate!

I'm not trying to unfairly slam WGF; the product that they've gotten out the door has been fantastic in all ways, and their customer support when I had to contact them was prompt and friendly. I do not know of any other company that would be able to match their execution that isn't already booked up until long after this one will be finished. If they are indeed doing KD:M, I'm quite happy because I know when that project gets delivered, they'll be just as amazing.

However, with a project that's stretched on for a year with four months of delay past the projected end, and we potentially could be lining up for another 8-10 months (or more) before Wave 3 ships, there's a certain amount of weariness that as Az says just needs to be vented sometimes. It's one thing to underestimate the initial workload, but it really seems as they've been chronically underestimating things as we've gone from "hopefully make up some lost time" to "delayed even further back" on Wave 2. Heck, even from "the Mortis is on the boat" we've slipped a month on the projected ship date. To have that and then be pushed back by other clients, while I can understand the business reasons for doing so, just adds to that frustration no matter how good it might be for WGF (and me! As I am heavily into KD:M's KS as well) in the long term.

I won't be raising pitchforks any time soon, because I've never doubted they intend to see this project through and this is really just part of the risk of backing a KS. I've tried to be fair in my posts but I do apologize if I've gone to just straight bashing somewhere along the line.

As much as it hurts to the end consumer with delays, I think expanding as rapidly as they did was one of the best decisions they did.

DFG, Wyrd, KD:M are all great, beautiful models. By WGF taking on all three projects, they are showing what they can do for making high quality molds and casts. It would hurt them more to allow these projects to go to other manufacturers.

Plus once the molds are cut on the current projects, it opens up to other great projects. And with some more experience under their belts, they will be able to get more accurate with their time frames.

But this is getting off topic for DFG, as really its all about WGF. I will say Mark choosing WGF was not a mistake, as they brought the beautiful renders of models to hard plastic that are the best on the market. There is always growing pains, and with KS you should always assume it is going to be delayed, unless it is Mantic, which you should assume only half the models are going to be what you expected them to be.

 ironicsilence wrote:
if they found a way to make a coupon work that would allow us to add wave 3 stuff....yikes i'd be handing over lots of cash

I would, as well. I'd be adding a LOT more APCs, as well as mini levi arms.

 Krinsath wrote:
I'm not trying to unfairly slam WGF; the product that they've gotten out the door has been fantastic in all ways, and their customer support when I had to contact them was prompt and friendly. I do not know of any other company that would be able to match their execution that isn't already booked up until long after this one will be finished. If they are indeed doing KD:M, I'm quite happy because I know when that project gets delivered, they'll be just as amazing.

However, with a project that's stretched on for a year with four months of delay past the projected end, and we potentially could be lining up for another 8-10 months (or more) before Wave 3 ships, there's a certain amount of weariness that as Az says just needs to be vented sometimes. It's one thing to underestimate the initial workload, but it really seems as they've been chronically underestimating things as we've gone from "hopefully make up some lost time" to "delayed even further back" on Wave 2. Heck, even from "the Mortis is on the boat" we've slipped a month on the projected ship date. To have that and then be pushed back by other clients, while I can understand the business reasons for doing so, just adds to that frustration no matter how good it might be for WGF (and me! As I am heavily into KD:M's KS as well) in the long term.

I won't be raising pitchforks any time soon, because I've never doubted they intend to see this project through and this is really just part of the risk of backing a KS. I've tried to be fair in my posts but I do apologize if I've gone to just straight bashing somewhere along the line.

I don't think you've ever gone straight to bashing, you're usually one of the more level-headed one of us. Imho. Even if I love Az(x) to death, he sometimes goes further than I would, but you've always been very polite and concise.

But enough of that, we can't have all threads become shamefully negative! Mark is doing his best. If WGF can curb it's appetite for new customers for a few weeks, we'll be fine! (Can you imagine if Raging Heroes had contracted with them for their KS as well? Oh the delays!)

I'm still salivating over the possibility of a big fat discount coupon. I could certainly use a few more Black Widows (two more boxes sounds nice!) another 20 pack of regular troops and a 20 pack of Valkir. Maybe even an APC or three for flavor....