Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

To REALLY take off this one is going to need at least 4 factions.

2 helps, 3 is even better, but for a viable game on its own? Four!

With each faction being a unique and special snowflake of course.

DFG does have a motto: "China says no."



"You want to give us more money for new units? Sorry. China says no."
You try one.

"We really need to get going on this, and get more factions out. Let's get the Shadokesh KS moving!"

"China says no."

This is my take on the current topic.

There are many factors that go into a games success or the road to mediocrity or even failure. Every game manufacturer wants to have a runaway success but let’s face it, anything but the first four slots in the top games can hardly be called a massive success. The chances of becoming one of the top four are VERY slim. BE PREPARED TO FAIL…. This is key IMO, how you manage your failures will determine your ultimate success.

SUCCESS: When it does happen it is a mix of quality, gameplay, presentation and more often than not perseverance and marketing. Ultimately, what makes a successful game is the customer. Retailers will sell and push the flavor of the day, using them as a barometer of successes can create a fleeting illusion of success. If the customers keep coming back, then you have the potential for a true success.

If we look at the current games we can see a few different tactics being employed to ‘push’ the games.

On the quality and slow simmer to a boil side, we have Infinity. They have a lot of releases but let’s face it, the visual quality of the mini is great (if you can paint well) the game system is a bit meh….JMO, I know some people LOVE it but I do not feel it is the best system from a simply ‘system’ standpoint, They have spent at least thirteen+ years developing their IP and pushing it out to marketing a more grass roots fashion.

On the new game being heavily marketed side we have WWE, Romeo is doing what he does best, marketing. Getting it in front of people on the forums, conventions and podcasts at every opportunity. I have not played the game so I will not comment on that aspect. Will this lead to ultimate success? I have no idea but the effort is clearly there. I do think his desire not to sell into distribution will hurt him in the end but time will tell.

Mantic IMO does a lot of things right and some not so great, their niche seems to be mostly with the cost conscious game crowd and with the UK. Their most recent game releases (systems) are fast clean and elegant. The minis from what I understand are hit and miss, but for the price, most are happy to try. On the marketing side, they are taking a fairly balance approach. Ronnie is out whenever and wherever he can be and talking about the game and future plans. For a cost conscious marketing plan I feel he is doing a fine job.

Where am I? By necessity I fall into the slow simmer to a boil side. As I am (currently) a sole proprietor I need to take a very measured approach and let my minis speak for themselves. Once I have a game and opforce I can go with the more cost conscious ‘ala Ronnie’ marketing, and a light push into advertising. Sure it would be great to enter the market with four complete factions, but that is simply not a reasonable expectation for a plastic range when the creator does not have a few million to throw into it from the start.
Obviously waiting six months to year between releases, no matter how many kits hit in that release in not a recipe for success. It places a burden on the supply chain and the customer that ultimately hurts the longevity. Far better to release a kit every one to three months and keep in the public’s eye. The Shadokesh need a revisit, they need to be amazing kits in their own right as ‘counts –as’ will be tougher than a human force. Stressful to say the least…

There is a tipping point, where volume of sales drives production faster because there are more resources available to myself and where the risk vs costs make sense. We have not hit that tipping point, nor do I expect we will until there is a game and at least one opforce. I am a patient man, I do not need or expect overnight success, nor is it required to ultimately be successful. There will be small successes and failures along the way, the trick/task for me is to manage both and still keep the train rolling.

This is not as easy as it sounds. As a sole proprietor and as the only artist, my attention is not where it needs be, interacting with all of you. I need to find partners or employees to take key burdens from me so I can step back to more of a director role…. All in good time.

At the end of the day, it is perseverance that wins. The first game release, no matter how well you craft it or love it, does not guarantee a success. You need to hit with the right system for the right market at the right time. You need to be open to change or even scrapping the concept altogether to tailor the experience your customer base desires. You will NEVER make everyone happy, what I love about a game you may despise. As Robey Jenkins once said, “Murder your darlings”, meaning do not be afraid to take what you think is the ultimate system, tear it apart and turn it something completely different. With luck, you can tailor the experience enough in the beginning to allow for small teaks and balance revisions, but if you find the appeal for a rules section is falling flat, do not be afraid to ‘murder’ it. As long as I am not pushing out quarterly revisions and charging my customers for the privilege I am confident that any well-structured and reasoned revisions should be accepted by most.

As I said, I am patient, I am here for the long game. The industry is such that there has always been a fresh influx of new gamers. This is where GW targets the vast majority of its resources. (Unfortunately to what seems to be the exclusion of their veterans) I truly hope that those who participated in the Kickstarter and my fans and customers from my resin days have the patience to follow with me through the ups and downs of this crazy ride, I can hardly blame them if they do not. For now, the pace is what it needs to be.
Looking at my current structure and capabilities, I think my biggest challenge will be getting out of the way if it does build steam. Will I have the contacts, the staff and the resources to allow to meet its potential without overstretching and collapsing? This industry is strewn with dead bodies of brightly lit flames that imploded before reaching their potential. Nothing kills success faster than success unmanaged.

Thanks for your thoughts Mark. I bought a Leviathan and wish that I had backed more heavily into your KS but to be quite honest here, there wasn't a reason. Without an opposing force, there was simply no point in buying a bunch of Eisenkhern as I had/have no desire or plans for a 40k imperial counts-as force. I bought the Leviathan because it's a beautiful beast and wanted to put it together and paint it. It did not disappoint me.

As a consumer, especially a disaffected GW consumer, I'm shopping for a game that I can sell to my friends and club-mates, something that we can all get into and have fun with. Unfortunately, Iron Core is nowhere near there and to be very honest with you, we'll have landed on something by the time you're ready for prime-time.

I think the slow-simmer strategy, whether you're forced to it or not, is a fail right now because so many people are leaving GW (at least in my area) right now and without anything ready to sell them, you're missing out. In my opinion, you're situation is similar to Mantic. They're an "almost" company because they sell to cheap-skates who don't care about quality. You're an almost because you've decided to go to the completely other end of the spectrum; you're all about quality which means you don't have anything that I'm interested in spending my money on. The market is glutted with human sci-fi and I want something "alien" to buy, build and paint and frankly, I'm so tired of GW's "all things human" approach that Mantic's Deadzone was refreshing in its diversity reardless of how I hate the material more than a Jehovah's witness knocking on my door at noon on a Saturday.

Sure, humans are safe and I'm sure they're selling well enough but there's no "wow" factor like the first time I saw the shadokesh render during kickstarter.

Thanks again for making a terrific product. I wish you all the best in the future and may even throw some money at your business if/when something new and different shows up. It's a shame that you've had to make business partners of a company that has cost you money in the long run by taking so long to get your product out in the world.

Thanks Mark for taking the time to post on the subject, it was a nice read. Where you said releasing 4 complete factions was not viable I totally agree. But you don't need to release 4 complete factions maybe 2 units, a monster/vehicle and a command unit for each faction. So that would be 16 kits in total, maybe this could be reduced to 12 kits if some kits were multi tasked. Yes your miniatures speak for themselves, but with no rulset and no other factions for them to go with they will be reduced to proxies only and fade into the background. You may have alot of pacence but customers do not (well some do of course). You need to get alternative factions out there as soon as possible, NOT complete factions just a bit here and there. Mantic started of with a few units for several factions for KoW and look at them now. If you applied your care and attention to how they did there's (few units, rules go from there) you would have a great success on your hands, as it stands now I see your company as proxies for GW (no offence) and nothing more, unless of course you are happy with this. It seems you want to release one complete faction at a time and I wish you luck with it but I fear unless you have base starter factions to stand on you will be doomed to fail, which none of us want to see that.

Thanks for the thoughtful insight agnosto.

Agreed, now would be a great time to be in font of any GW exodus but I think that train will be leaving the station over a few years’ time, so although I would prefer to be ready now the financial realities of 1 million US per faction are beyond the reach of anyone I know.

Great to hear your view on alien races, as I said this one is nerve racking as having one of the two factions that will be accepted purely on their own esthetics is a bit of a gamble when we are talking about the kind of money needed for hard tooling.

 agnosto wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts Mark. I bought a Leviathan and wish that I had backed more heavily into your KS but to be quite honest here, there wasn't a reason. Without an opposing force, there was simply no point in buying a bunch of Eisenkhern as I had/have no desire or plans for a 40k imperial counts-as force. I bought the Leviathan because it's a beautiful beast and wanted to put it together and paint it. It did not disappoint me.

As a consumer, especially a disaffected GW consumer, I'm shopping for a game that I can sell to my friends and club-mates, something that we can all get into and have fun with. Unfortunately, Iron Core is nowhere near there and to be very honest with you, we'll have landed on something by the time you're ready for prime-time.

I think the slow-simmer strategy, whether you're forced to it or not, is a fail right now because so many people are leaving GW (at least in my area) right now and without anything ready to sell them, you're missing out. In my opinion, you're situation is similar to Mantic. They're an "almost" company because they sell to cheap-skates who don't care about quality. You're an almost because you've decided to go to the completely other end of the spectrum; you're all about quality which means you don't have anything that I'm interested in spending my money on. The market is glutted with human sci-fi and I want something "alien" to buy, build and paint and frankly, I'm so tired of GW's "all things human" approach that Mantic's Deadzone was refreshing in its diversity reardless of how I hate the material more than a Jehovah's witness knocking on my door at noon on a Saturday.

Sure, humans are safe and I'm sure they're selling well enough but there's no "wow" factor like the first time I saw the shadokesh render during kickstarter.

Thanks again for making a terrific product. I wish you all the best in the future and may even throw some money at your business if/when something new and different shows up. It's a shame that you've had to make business partners of a company that has cost you money in the long run by taking so long to get your product out in the world.

Ninjed again, though I actually think the comment about Mantic catering for cheap skates is quite insulting (actually VERY insulting). Yes Restic sucks for infantry sized models but its great for larger stuff, and there new plastics AND scenery are great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NoseGoblin wrote:
Thanks for the thoughtful insight agnosto.

Agreed, now would be a great time to be in font of any GW exodus but I think that train will be leaving the station over a few years’ time, so although I would prefer to be ready now the financial realities of 1 million US per faction are beyond the reach of anyone I know.

Great to hear your view on alien races, as I said this one is nerve racking as having one of the two factions that will be accepted purely on their own esthetics is a bit of a gamble when we are talking about the kind of money needed for hard tooling.

Thats why you don't throw a million at it. You let your fans see your concepts, then move to a unit at a time. Releasing whole factions at a time is complete madness imo!

Thanks Overtyrant,

I agree with you but I am not sure where to draw the line on this, partial faction’s vs a full faction and how to structure game play becomes problematic, but I will give it some thought.

One of the issues I would need to overcome is my own work flow. I work best when I can immerse myself in a look or feel rather than switching between factions, so I tend to flesh out the units as much as possible for one faction at a time. This could be overcome by bringing in a few artist to deal with the other factions but the costs of that can grow out of control quickly.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have to bow out of the conversation for a bit to work on a render and build some heavy support, but I would love to hear more thoughts on this subject.


If I were to release two factions at once, where is the cut off? One unit of infantry and a single vehicle?

Let me hear what you feel you need to sit down with your friends and play....

IMO, having four factions is actually much less effective than two extensively fleshed-out factions. The Eisenkern are a pretty well-rounded faction once Wave 3 gets released - those wouldn't need too many shiny new things anymore, for a while (resin character or two wouldn't hurt - some conversion bits etc. are good but plastic-wise, they're fine!).

If shadokesh get released with 3-4 kits, I might dip my toes in a bit - if, however, they get as extensive a release as the eisenkern have now, I'll be diving in all the way. Of course you'll have to like one of the two factions enough to start playing, rather than one of four, but at least there's two decently complete factions rather than four that all feel like there's something missing.
Worse yet, as it stands now there would be one complete, rather versatile faction, and three factions with army lists that feel like swiss cheese.
If anything, the "many armies, ASAP" approach is what's hampering several of Mantic's systems, IMO (DZ is fine for example, but KoW even now has like ten armies, all of which have rather limiting model selections available...)

Really, I'd like just the shadokesh, and LOTS of them to go up against the excellent eisenkern.
It's not about the players you'll miss because they don't like either aesthetic: there will be tons of those, however many factions you go with; it's about showing an incredibly solid core offering, in hard plastic, that outside of GW nobody has to offer. Do that for just two factions and have a good ruleset to go with them, and I'm sure DFG models will be on the shelves at at least two FLGSes around here in no-time (two stores that, so far, don't stock any because there's no game to go with them, yet).

Looking at the wow factor if the minis themselves, I have enjoyed so far making the Crusader(still need to get the lighting package set in,) I also bought the troopers/accessories-command kit/ and the heavy weapons. that can be fleshed out with the Blak Widows and Command squad sets planned.

The heavy armored types will also be nice to have set and ready, I also plan on many Hanomags.

Once you flesh out the Shadokesh, adding the rule set will at least allow players to really get going into the Iron Core play.

Now seeing releases, I have noted that other companies release a unit or 2 from each faction on rotating basis each quarter, usually a heavy unit like a tank or mech, and infantry related units.

I am always pleased at the detail and work that went into the stormtroopers.

 NoseGoblin wrote:
If I were to release two factions at once, where is the cut off? One unit of infantry and a single vehicle?
Let me hear what you feel you need to sit down with your friends and play....

Depends on how the faction plays, and what qualifies as a vehicle.

IMO a Space Marine style faction is going want an Infantry Squad and a Land Raider, while a Tau style faction is going to want Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits.

Two infantry units probably going to be better for most factions (depending on the rules...), a 'standard' and a 'Special' option.

 NoseGoblin wrote:

Great to hear your view on alien races, as I said this one is nerve racking as having one of the two factions that will be accepted purely on their own esthetics is a bit of a gamble when we are talking about the kind of money needed for hard tooling.

Based purely on the aesthetics that I've seen so far, I would imagine that if the Shadokesh have walkers, they'll be more organic and agile but less heavily armored than their human counterparts. If it were me, and I realize it's you, I'd draw on the aliens from the Evangelion series for inspiration.

I think you've also got to carry on putting out new Eisenkern stuff if you want to keep a 'game' up and running as well as new factions,

Gamers are fickle and as you say the pages of history are full of games (some really good mechanically) that are 'dead' and so only played by the occasional massive fan,

and lack of regular releases is what makes gamers think something is dead so I think that once you hit the 'THIS IS A GAME' point of releasing rules as well as models you're going to have go carry on feeding the desire for new stuff even in factions you think are fleshed out and don't need anything new, even if you need to 'go back' to the occasional resin or metal special release

What is a minimum for a game? I'd say at least one transport, core infantry, tank/heavy support team/ vehicle and a big gribblie (and this mainly because that's an expectation and what separates Iron Core from most of the competition).

While I can see the appeal of wanting another full faction right off the bat, giving the Iron Core game a full range of play options, you'll be relying on people liking the aesthetics of those armies for buy in. If people don't like them, it doesn't matter how extensive the line is, they will not buy in for anything.

My ideal start off going forward would be for at least 2 more factions, if not 3.

1 more Human (Republic or Protectorate), and 2 alien factions (Shadowkesh and Dhar-Hazier). This gives a feel for the overall IC universe and allows different play styles to be incorporated in each faction along with the different aesthetics to give more choice for people.

1 infantry unit.
1 Options kit that will let you make models for 2 other units (weapon/armor/gear options).

1 Leviathan or Walker analogous unit. The Large unit for each faction.
1 options box with sprues allowing different variants or weapons.

1 Vehicle kit, with maybe one option sprue allowing variant build.


This gives you a core force for each faction starting with say 3 infantry units minimum, 1-2 walker variants, 1-3 vehicle variants.
The key is to make one main box for each unit, but have a box of options allowing other variants instead of complete variant boxes.

That is my ideal if you win the lottery or some millionaire gamer throws money at you.

More feasible is push forward with the Shadowkesh, but have backups for other factions to add if you decide to go Kickstarter again.

Kickstart the Shadowkesh with a full lineup already designed with a goal allowing at least 3/4 of it to be paid for up front. Stretch goals to finish it out (in the short term). Basic units for up to 2 more factions (vehicle, infantry, walker) ready to go.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Azazel - Are you at all familiar with whats going on with Iron Core? The ruleset has been in development (or at least a conceptualization of it, whether or not precinct omega carries that over remains to be seen), and promises to be something truly unique. Whether or not it turns into something successful is another story, but it has the potential, certainly moreso than the derivative/recycled crud that mantic keeps feeding us.

I know it's being mostly developed by one guy in his spare time, with input from Mark and a forum-community of people who could prove their worth by showing painted DFG miniatures. While something like that will no doubt end up with a smallish following, it's not going to be what we'd call "big" in any way. Not to piss on the parade of course, but just trying to be realistic. The figures make great 40k proxies, that's what most people will use them as, and that's totally fine.

Mark, if units are an issue, can you take advantage of WGF's existing range by releasing a 'Mercenaries upgrade kit' full of various weapons and alien or helmeted heads? WGF has Russian infantry who would make great Rebels against the Eisenkern, if only they had blasters and kit. Zombie survivors could be converted into covert agents, killer cyborgs or alien flesh puppets. This could help keep your brand going and allow players to try some of the rules (as well as converting other ranges using your products) until you can develop full factions. Might also help keep WGF interested.

Personally, I think the Shadokesh look amazing and should be your next range. They are a big risk, however, but a 'Slavemaster' list that allows people to use Shadokesh with their mercenaries (or Eisenkern minis or Enforcers or...) might make them more enticing for the foot-in-the-door purchase.

The other human factions all sound too generic. They would be easy to proxy with historicals or products other companies will bring to the market long before you get there. Vehicles and highly distinctive units will be what make or break the other human factions, which will require a lot of investment before people really take notice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Necros wrote:
What about metal & resin? Sure plasic is awesome, but can't ya do some starter troops for other factions the old fashioned way, and save the plastics for leviathans and vehicles for now?

Didn't he already have metals and resins? Lots of other companies have tons of metals and resins. This would be a step back, in my opinion, and give the impression of stagnation or death for DFG.

Might as well buy the Total Extinction resin space Russians and Funky Aliens instead as they will be available sooner, and in greater numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agnosto wrote:
In my opinion, you're situation is similar to Mantic. They're an "almost" company because they sell to cheap-skates who don't care about quality.

As a cheapskate with a make-do attitude, I am telling you you're wrong. For their quality, most of Mantic's products are far too expensive.

You're an almost because you've decided to go to the completely other end of the spectrum; you're all about quality

Quality and Star Wars Nazis. Seriously, no one does coal-scuttled Star Wars mooks half so well.

His products will do phenomonal once his Valkir (which have appeal outside of that particular niche*) hit the market. Someday. When China says yes.


*

I think Mark is correct. Despite GW's claims to the contrary, the actual Hobby of wargaming abides. If you bring out a good product, the timing really doesn't matter to your long-term success. Perfect timing can jumpstart it, sure, as being in the right place at the right time will make anything easier. However, it is not a requirement to be successful. Slow but steady will win more races, after all.

As far as what shape the new factions take, I can see them getting started with 1 basic infantry kit, 1 elite/command kit and 1 vehicle/Leviathan-style kit. That's still a lot of sprues if they're done up detail-wise like the Eisenkern, but at that level I can see simulating a border skirmish between raiders of that faction (e.g. - Shadokesh) and an Eisenkern garrison. Yeah, it puts a ton of emphasis on the Eisenkern, but given that they're the fleshed-out range I'm pretty sure that's going to happen regardless.

This is similar to the model that eventually saw the Necrons included in 40k proper. They started off with a very similar setup of basic infantry, commander and bike and were later built out to a very successful range (albeit all at once because GW-level resources). Ranges that the rules click for and have good models will (hopefully) sell quickly and fund faster expansion of that range. Ranges that don't sell as well can be left at their "raider" level until sales of more popular lines can subsidize their expansion and/or the issues with why they're not as popular can be ironed out (assuming they can be).

It's not a quick plan, and it won't make Mark Scrooge McDuck-style piles of money, but I don't see where it's a "doomed-to-failure" approach either.

A second fully developed faction seems like a better idea to me than multiple factions with no depth. You can have a good game with two fully developed factions but splitting the releases among three will give each one third of the units leaving little strategy imo. Fully developing and balancing two factions will get a good game up and running, to which the other factions can later be added - even if it's rules only to begin with which can later be fleshed out by a model range. Better to proxy an entire army than bits and pieces from each army imo,

The Eisenkern took off because they were multi-part poseable hard plastic and usable for many systems (has to be said - especially 40k), they didn't need Iron Core to be worth getting for people. I'm not sure Shadokesh have that luxury, though I personally like the concept and style. I guess they'd be usable with other systems so long as they had obvious analogs in unit and weapon types and if they look good people would go for them. Tying in with the previous point, I also think a fully fledged range would allow people to field full armies in other systems rather than using as a replacement for a single unit type such as vespids or kroot for example.

I wonder how well the Eisenkern stuff has been selling for WGF through their own channels. You'd think if they were flying out the door through WGF's retail distribution channels, they'd prioritize more releases.

At the same time if a design ends up being a dud, you've now sunk yourself as million dollar ranges don't grow on trees. Maybe the first OpFor would benefit from being more developed, but as a long-term approach I don't think Mark's health could take the stress of tooling up a huge range and having so much hang on whether the mass market was interested. I think the overall health of the company is much better served by a smaller release unless they can somehow salvage this KS to get some upfront funding.

Not shipping anything by 2015 will nip that prospect in the bud in all likelihood though. Funding and WGF's performance to-date indicate a smaller approach is far more feasible/sustainable.

 agnosto wrote:

 NoseGoblin wrote:

Great to hear your view on alien races, as I said this one is nerve racking as having one of the two factions that will be accepted purely on their own esthetics is a bit of a gamble when we are talking about the kind of money needed for hard tooling.

Based purely on the aesthetics that I've seen so far, I would imagine that if the Shadokesh have walkers, they'll be more organic and agile but less heavily armored than their human counterparts. If it were me, and I realize it's you, I'd draw on the aliens from the Evangelion series for inspiration.

I second this look!

I also second the idea of the Shadokesh. They have a great organic look to them.


As for future release (perhaps KS) I would stick with simple things: base troops, elite unit, and a command squad (elites and command and accessories as stretch goals). Don't want to have too many kits to do, which causes delays, which we are seeing now.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Partnering with another company is one of the best ways forward in the short and mid-term. Long haul and all that, sure - but you need to get there without becoming another of the many DOA miniatures companies (with WGF presumably just pumping out the existing plastics in perpetuity)

If Eisenkern were a DeadZone faction, then you'd be selling them at a much greater rate immediately, and they'd have someone else to fight before 2017, instead of being "counts-as" figures until then at the earliest.. (Based on W3 in 2015, and 2 years for Shadowkesh following that).

 Azazelx wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Partnering with another company is one of the best ways forward in the short and mid-term. Long haul and all that, sure - but you need to get there without becoming another of the many DOA miniatures companies (with WGF presumably just pumping out the existing plastics in perpetuity)

If Eisenkern were a DeadZone faction, then you'd be selling them at a much greater rate immediately, and they'd have someone else to fight before 2017, instead of being "counts-as" figures until then at the earliest.. (Based on W3 in 2015, and 2 years for Shadowkesh following that).

Along those lines they could be used as a corporation faction (as Mantic has not done one for them yet), the look would fit as their are thousands of corporations in Deadzone/Warpath universe and the current figures for Warpath Corporation miniatures leave a lot to be desired.Or at least as an option. I know that what I am using the current guys for as they got the kits already and heck I may even sub them for the enforcers to some extent. I really want Ironcore universe to come out but Azazelx's idea is also really good if it worked.

You're right of course - and while there's nothing at all to stop us from proxying them, they'd be far better off as "official" figures for Corp or even an entirely new faction. Imagine the "15mm" Levi on the board there. (And the "15mm" model is a good example of the true "counts-as" nature of this range at this point since It's a Dreadknight in all but name and there are no other "15mm" models in the range or even spoken about...)

I think KS 2 should be Shadokesh plus either Protectorate or Republic. With the initial goal as an infantry kit (could even borrow GW play book and dual purpose the sprues) and a Big ThingTM for each. Stretch goal out to a Cmnd/elite unit and Transport/tank for each.

It would hopefully, be successful yet restrained enough that it wouldnt take 2 plus years for fulfillment, and test the waters for Shadokesh marketability. As let's face it, if the Protectorate are the scifi Great coats they read like they will sell.

Plus 3 makes an entirety feasible game.
Just look at Starcraft.

 NoseGoblin wrote:

As I said, I am patient, I am here for the long game.

That's an understatement!

YES! Thanks for bringing that up KK. It is easy to forget that Mark has been at this thing for a while now. I remember when those original DFG leviathans were released and then lawyered away only to have Mark come back with the new style Leviathan followed up by the metal troops and then he shocked everyone with the plastic stuff. I don't see him giving up anytime soon.