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I am always amazed at how many people get into argument with people who just created an account on a forum and have been negative/trolling the thread this entire time.

It is so much easier to simply ignore those posts and stick with what is constructive and positive.

 Hollowman wrote:
It hurts my black little heart that they felt the need to nerf both units... it's certainly not as if they were swamping the tournaments and flooding the tables with tiny tears of frustration at their game breaking greatness. I was hoping for something to help them, but not expecting it... getting worse was a nasty surprise.

To be fair, they didn't really nerf them. They just didn't make them better. They've never been good. :(

The new poster dogpile still going on? Really?

Thanks again to pretre for answering my question regarding repentia. The rest of you guys need yet another hobby or something.

i'd call giving the broken penitent engine even less attacks and the repentia less feel no pain opportunities as a nerf

shadowsfm wrote:
i'd call giving the broken penitent engine even less attacks and the repentia less feel no pain opportunities as a nerf

Except the PE got 3 base attacks (for 4) instead of D6+1. So it smooths out the randomness of the unit. (And only gives -.5 attacks on average).

Repentia got much better FNP now but can only use it in Hand to Hand but in exchange they got dedicated transports and much cheaper.

So as I said, they really didn't get nerfed but they didn't get better.

Going to miss my bastion for now =-(
I like the Retributer HB holed up inside of this but since im going with a blob I think the ADL is a better choice.
Besides three Exorcists should mean a lot of missiles raining on my foes!

Wow. I really like the addons!

 pretre wrote:

shadowsfm wrote:
i'd call giving the broken penitent engine even less attacks and the repentia less feel no pain opportunities as a nerf

Except the PE got 3 base attacks (for 4) instead of D6+1. So it smooths out the randomness of the unit. (And only gives -.5 attacks on average).

Repentia got much better FNP now but can only use it in Hand to Hand but in exchange they got dedicated transports and much cheaper.

So as I said, they really didn't get nerfed but they didn't get better.

you forget about the penitent engine's bonus attacks (battle frenzy) didnt you?
and as for the repentia, they used to still be able to attack after their own death

 pretre wrote:

 Hollowman wrote:
It hurts my black little heart that they felt the need to nerf both units... it's certainly not as if they were swamping the tournaments and flooding the tables with tiny tears of frustration at their game breaking greatness. I was hoping for something to help them, but not expecting it... getting worse was a nasty surprise.

To be fair, they didn't really nerf them. They just didn't make them better. They've never been good. :(

Repentia were pretty decent in 5th when employing "Grand Theft Rhino" but that went away with 6th and the "no assault from transports that aren't assault vehicles" and only got worse with this change.

shadowsfm wrote:
you forget about the penitent engine's bonus attacks (battle frenzy) didnt you?
and as for the repentia, they used to still be able to attack after their own death

I had forgotten about the bonus since I never use PEs. I still think the standard number is better, but concede that they lost that. 3+ FNP on LD is better than 5+ or 4+ to swing once last.

no matter how much we argue over a peice of crap, it is still a peice of crap.
so, moving on

shadowsfm wrote:
no matter how much we argue over a peice of crap, it is still a peice of crap.
so, moving on

That's not a fair statement. who made you the be-all-end-all of how effective a unit is? Penitent engines have there uses against certain foes, doing very well against horde type armies or a tervigon spam list (The amount of strength 10 hits this thing puts out is frightening!) and Repentia can work as a counter assault unit. The problem is they fill roles we don't NEED filled. Why take chances in combat to kill a Tervigon when you can spam melta? Why take Repentia when a battle conclave make a better counter/assault unit? But don't simply blanket mark them as 'crap' because they don't find there way into competitive lists, every codex has them simply because the concept won't work competitively. I mean penitent engines will always be fragile, that's there thing, in a meta of Krak grenades that's not a good thing. But that's their thing. They are still great at grinding down ork hordes and make great anti biker bob units for how cheap they are (As said, strength 10, you only have to cause 2 wounds to make points back). Think about it before you go and chunk entire units into the rubbish bin,

when i say "i'm moving on," that's me trying not to force my opinion on others. but i have every right to have my own opinion and express it

If we're honest with ourselves, when we look at the Penitent Engine, you don't see a very effective unit. Certainly, it has murderous potential in close combat. However, there is a massive issue getting it into combat which means that potential is ultimately pointless. By comparison to other type of walkers or even Monstrous Creatures, it is not very durable and only slightly more effective. With Rhino class armor, most armies have an over abundance of things that can reliably pop it, as an important part of the game currently is popping rhinos/transports. As a result, you're paying a lot for a slow Rhino. (6" + D6" maximum speed versus guaranteed 12") Additionally, the opponent doesn't even have to then coordinate more shooting at the gooey bits inside which are the threat, they can just pop it and move on. Compared to the aforementioned monstrous creature (such as a Tyranid), it will take four successful wounds from anti-tank weapons (Toughness 6 is roughly equivalent to Armor 10) to bring one of those beasts down. It only takes 3 successful "wounds" with similar weaponry to bring an Engine down. And a MC doesn't have to worry about being hit by AP 1/2 causing it to spontaneously combust. It can't absorb as much firepower, its only moderately more effective in the close combat its not going to get to, and is only slightly less expensive.

I don't think its unfair to call it a crap unit considering you can grab allied Space Marines or even IG and get more useful walkers. Ironclad Dreadnaughts, while not the same level of close combat power, make effective tarpits and are a ton more durable, while Armored Sentinels can take can bring decent shooting such as Lascannons the girls don't have. There's not much of a price difference between an Engine and an Armored Sentinel with guns I'd wager. (Though, taking your only allied FA choice and not grabbing Vendettas is not precisely wise either.)

And if you'd want to bring up the added cost of having to buy an HQ and troop choices, that ignores the added value those units have. It already seems pretty common practice to bring in IG anyway.

So no matter how you slice it, taking an Engine is giving yourself a handicap you can't afford to. If its a fun game, sure go nuts, have fun. Just don't expect them to do much except absorb their points cost in anti-armor shooting for a turn or two and die. Perhaps that'll get your rhinos just a bit closer, but then you'd better earn their points back and the cost of the unit you distracted for.

It needs to be much better to compete with anything, even in its own list. Exorcists or even Fire Trucks are a more solid investment by leagues. That fact alone means its not worth taking, and so therefore its not unreasonable for someone to turn their nose up at it. It should be better, and its poor design that its not.

Edit: Had Carnies in mind when I wrote this from the 'Nid perspective, but they only have 4 wounds. Corrected, but honestly doesn't detract from the point. Even so, Carnies have a 3+ armor save against anything not AP 3, making them even tougher.

shadowsfm wrote:
i'd call giving the broken penitent engine even less attacks and the repentia less feel no pain opportunities as a nerf

Penitent Engines get 3(4) attacks. thats not a small amount for a dreadnought. It's twice what most of them get. Just saying.

So how do you get them across the table without getting popped?

You don't.

Bring more.

PEs entire fluff is about most of them dying and the last few falling amidst the corpses of the other side. They're one of the few things in 40k that actually works like the lore says.

 Jancoran wrote:

shadowsfm wrote:
i'd call giving the broken penitent engine even less attacks and the repentia less feel no pain opportunities as a nerf

Penitent Engines get 3(4) attacks. thats not a small amount for a dreadnought. It's twice what most of them get. Just saying.

dreadnoughts get just as many attacks at initiative 4 if you equip them with two close combat weapons. the problem with the penitent engine is, even if they survive long range attacks, in close combat, the modals with initiative 4 has a good chance of popping it before the engine even gets a chance to attack

So I am starting to think there could be a use for minimum size repentia squads to walk up behind the immos out of LoS. When your sister get out and nuke stuff the repentias can charge in to bail them out. Now that your sister units (you know you are taking priests, just admit it) are practically impossible to kill efficiently in assault you can hold an enemy unit up long enough for something to bail them out.

I understand people's misapprehension at the repentia's possibly not getting to swing but I think they usually will with their 3+ FnP just keep them away from S6 A5+ units and you should be able to get some use out of them.

So I got a lovely box from the war store today labeled "Your reinforcements have arrived" (hah, thanks Neal!) and I am now busily converting up my Protectorate troops into proper ladies of the god emperor.

dadakkaest wrote:So how do you get them across the table without getting popped?

pretre wrote:You don't.

With at least 3, they stand a reasonable chance of getting 1-2 into combat (more likely 1).
With 9+, you stand a reasonable chance of getting at least half into the enemy lines to start ripping stuff up.
Just 1 is really not worth it, it will die.

 pretre wrote:

shadowsfm wrote:
i'd call giving the broken penitent engine even less attacks and the repentia less feel no pain opportunities as a nerf

Except the PE got 3 base attacks (for 4) instead of D6+1. So it smooths out the randomness of the unit. (And only gives -.5 attacks on average).

Also lost the attacks from Battle Frenzy, which was usually good for another attack or two.

I do agree that they've never really been good though. An AV11 open topped walker just isn't really durable.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So I got a lovely box from the war store today labeled "Your reinforcements have arrived" (hah, thanks Neal!) and I am now busily converting up my Protectorate troops into proper ladies of the god emperor.

Which menites did you go for? I was thinking of using some but couldn't find any that I could see working (I had also considered mantid's Basile's, which do seem viable).

 pretre wrote:
.
To be fair, they didn't really nerf them. They just didn't make them better. They've never been good. :(

I'm inclined to say it's a pretty serious nerf on Repentia, and a minor but unecessary one on penitent Engines.

A one round 3+ FnP in combat isn't all the useful. Sure, before the update I'd lose a Repentia or two in assault and if the "hail mary swing" faith thing didn't go off it was sad, but losing Reps in cc was never an issue. If they were in CC, things were golden. You could lose half the unit before they could swing and still blend the enemy. It's getting them INTO combat that's tough, and as far as getting them there the 6++/5+ FnP was a necessity.

And they were downright survivable back when they had a 6++/4+ FnP and could assault out of a stopped rhino. They were a terror. They've fallen further and further, and as of now I have 30 of them I don't know how to use... they are almost back to the mess they were in the Witch hunters codex. Even in 6th I could run them up behind screening Seraphim and Penitent engines and count on doing some damage. They always outdid my conclaves, at the very least. I just can't picture how to make them work now, even in masses.

Penitent Engines are... ok. They have always been ok. They worked well in concert with Repentia, because that was just too much blender heading down the field. On their own they can do fair. Squadron them up, rotate the least damaged to the front each turn, and hug cover. Bad opponents will shoot everything at them the first few turns and that helps you a lot. Good opponents will ignore them the first few turns and let you get close, which pretty often means you get an assault out of it, and at the least a lot of guns pointing their way right when your other units are getting into dangerous positions.



The PE/Repentia combo was good when the WD dropped. It was weird, but it worked well - the glory days of sending massed penitent Engines, 3 rhino full of Repentia and a uriah conclave right into enemy lines while Kyrinov made your backfield fearless. Delicious.

I'm not seeing much discussion - positive, negative, nerfy, , whatever - about death cult. I'm surprised as they were (imo) always a cracking little shock unit in 5th, although the (relative) demise of assault in 6th I don't see them really cutting it. Thoughts?

They are better in assaults now (because of priests) but still suffer the problem of getting there.

 Ovion wrote:

dadakkaest wrote:So how do you get them across the table without getting popped?

pretre wrote:You don't.

With at least 3, they stand a reasonable chance of getting 1-2 into combat (more likely 1).
With 9+, you stand a reasonable chance of getting at least half into the enemy lines to start ripping stuff up.
Just 1 is really not worth it, it will die.

I agree in principle. Giving your opponent problems of target saturation may help keep threm alive long enough to reach the enemy but even if they manage to make it into assault theres a chance they could fail to strike as their only I3. Not forgetting that 9 of them comes in at over 700 pts and your denying yoyr army exorcist support. If i had 9 i'd try it, hell I might even pick up 1 more and try 3 but I don't think they'll be regulars in my list due to how unreliable they are.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

dadakkaest wrote:So how do you get them across the table without getting popped?

pretre wrote:You don't.

With at least 3, they stand a reasonable chance of getting 1-2 into combat (more likely 1).
With 9+, you stand a reasonable chance of getting at least half into the enemy lines to start ripping stuff up.
Just 1 is really not worth it, it will die.

I agree in principle. Giving your opponent problems of target saturation may help keep threm alive long enough to reach the enemy but even if they manage to make it into assault theres a chance they could fail to strike as their only I3. Not forgetting that 9 of them comes in at over 700 pts and your denying yoyr army exorcist support. If i had 9 i'd try it, hell I might even pick up 1 more and try 3 but I don't think they'll be regulars in my list due to how unreliable they are.

D

Yeah, but then, I never really intended to use Exorcists, just Penitent Engines and Repentia.
And so far when playing, there's been 6-8 very murdery units charging fulll tilt towards the other guy, and they don't know what to do about it, meaning a reasonable ammount can make it there, and they will invaribly murder their first target.
It's after those first targets that things start getting a little more uncertain.

Maybe buy a squad of Rets and an Exorcist at some point, and a Vindicator to convert to Sisters icons/colours and homebrew in, but otherwise, just maxed Penitents.

Then, use homebrew characters that let you take even more Penitent Engines (Elite, Fast Attack) and Repentia as troops.

 inmygravenimage wrote:
I'm not seeing much discussion - positive, negative, nerfy, , whatever - about death cult. I'm surprised as they were (imo) always a cracking little shock unit in 5th, although the (relative) demise of assault in 6th I don't see them really cutting it. Thoughts?

I like them but its slightly anooying they are only power swords now - I keep looking at them but not managed to fit them in yet