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[Update] So, the entire threat got bogged down into talk about sexism. Given its a topic related to the Sisters of Battle, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. If you want to see the Codex, PM me or hit that g-mail, and I'll get around to sending it to you eventually.

Hello all, I've been toying with making a new codex just to try and get my head wrapped around how things work. I've been avoiding other people's ideas, for the most part, so that I don't inadvertently copy someone's stuff. Still, just a glance here in the rules section, I spotted myself and SysterSydney had a similar idea (at least in name) for a Canoness. Oh well.

I did have some background concepts & information I planned to write up to explain somethings, but for now I've just gotten the rules framework down and such. Feel free to ask questions or comment. My general idea was to start a bit heavy and see how far I could push things, then reign in power if necessary depending on feedback.

Note: I have not play tested these rules due to a general lack of people to play 40K with these days.

Also Note: Certain names that are, shall we say, on the nose, are not the final names, just place holders to communicate their origins easily until a more appropriate 40Kish name can be applied. You'll probably figure out which ones I'm referring to.

After trying to get the formatting on the forum itself to work, I realized that was a fool's errand and decided I'd just upload the Rich Text document and provide a link.

Gonna try this Zippyshare.com out, haven't heard anything bad about it yet. Additionally, those who want a copy via e-mail, I'll hand out this one: nydustemplar@gmail.com. Its not my main and I don't use it for anything, so I maybe slow to reply.

Link for the Codex: Will provide upon request. Lack of Interest means I haven't been doing upkeep on it.

Please let me know if there is any issues.

Thanks much for the read.

Edit: Fixed some minor spelling issues as well as a minor typo. Also adjust the points of one of the Ecclesiarchy Relics. Posted an updated codex.

Three cheers for fandexes! I will feel free to shamelessly steal your ideas (and give you due credit: "only please don't call it plagiarism, call it research" - Tom Lehrer) and you should feel free to steal mine. Only together can we crush the filthy Tau and Eldar Xenos! (and maybe not even then...).

Interesting read, though I would pick another name for the FA 'Horsemaidens'. Maybe *blank* Cavaliers? Or *something* Calvary...
I also think the points may be appropriate and like PE having wounds.

SisterSydney wrote:Three cheers for fandexes! I will feel free to shamelessly steal your ideas (and give you due credit: "only please don't call it plagiarism, call it research" - Tom Lehrer) and you should feel free to steal mine. Only together can we crush the filthy Tau and Eldar Xenos! (and maybe not even then...).

I wanted to have an untainted copy up just for my own sake before I dig into other's ideas. I know of at least two other fan codexes (1 here and 1 on 1D4Chan) but I've been avoiding them for the aforementioned reasons. Also when I saw your independent character, I did the same since I had a similar idea. Although I think, from the tiny bits of stuff I picked up, I sort of diverged a few things. Battlemaiden Chastity, for example, was the one who really got a lot more credit bringing down big monsters with her Unblemished Sarissa.

Not sure if I mentioned it in the ramblings at the bottom, but the whole point of the Battlemaidens being armed only with Long Arm Sarissas was that they couldn't become a proper Sister of Battle until they'd broken it in battle. Sort of liked the idea of a hoard of zealous, eager to prove themselves recruits charging into the fray and being halfway effective, as opposed to, let's say, Conscripts. There's a sort of analogue to why they have to break their Sarissas, and why the only one who's never managed to do it, while continually driving it into the toughest enemies she can find, is named 'Chastity'.

mrwhoop wrote:Interesting read, though I would pick another name for the FA 'Horsemaidens'. Maybe *blank* Cavaliers? Or *something* Calvary...
I also think the points may be appropriate and like PE having wounds.

Well, I figured it was simply a name progression from being a Battlemaiden, since they are essentially Scout equivalents. Think Scouts and Scout Bikers. They are still maidens, having not earned their place yet as a proper Sister, but can now go about using that horsemanship they've learned while growing up to the advantage of the Sisters. Plus it plays into the Amazon theme for the early phase of becoming a Sister, and transitions well into the Valkyrie theme for the sort of high end of the Sisters. I'll have to dig into my brief research again, but I thought Valkyries were depicted on mounts at some point.

Edit: Oh, and Penitent Engines, yeah, they really needed something. Being slower and more flimsey than a Dark Eldar raider was just not cutting it in my opinion.

It's spelled "cavalry."

It's nice that you power acts of faith with martyrdom, and that just having faith points allows a save.

I sort of, how do I say, don't like acts of faith, in general.

Why do the probitors have bolt weapons?

pelicaniforce wrote:
It's spelled "cavalry."

It's nice that you power acts of faith with martyrdom, and that just having faith points allows a save.

I sort of, how do I say, don't like acts of faith, in general.

Why do the probitors have bolt weapons?

Good catch. I've corrected it on my copy, but I won't upload a new version until there's something more significant to change.

The Horsemaidens have boltguns for the same reason Space Marine scouts do. Horsemaidens are the next step up from Battlemaidens, and have proved they can participate in combat without folding like wet cardboard (hence leadership 8), and it serves their purpose as a harassing/flanking unit to be able to engage at range with decent weaponry. It also fits the general theme of the army being Holy Trinity of Bolter/Flamer/Melta. Giving them something less like shotguns or lasguns wouldn't really fit considering the entire army is armed similarly.

As for you not liking Acts of Faith in general, nothing really that can be said about that. Its a relatively core mechanic to Sisters of Battle's concept. If you mean what I've put down specifically, that's something to be discussed.

Finally managed to download this (um, zippyshare wanting me to download a .exe file was a little bit scary....). So:

Some neat ideas in here, especially for Special Characters. And I do see the similarity between your Canoness Athena and my Canoness Minerva, both in names and Outflank tactics, though yours is more close combat-oriented and my more about tanks.

The whole Battlemaiden - Horsemaiden - Shieldmaiden progression (I think that's the order?) is cool. It's, um, also entirely at variance with canon, where the progression is, as far as we can figure out from limited sources,
- to age 12: Progena in Schola Progenium, which trains all orphans of those who died in Imperial service, male and female, for future roles ranging from Commissar to the clergy to clerk of the Administratum.
- ages 12-18 (roughly): Novice of the Adepta Sororitas, with significant combat training, but trains girls of exceptional faith for all the Sororitas orders, e.g. Dialogus, Famulous, Hospitaller, not just the Orders Militant, aka the Sisters of Battle.
- ca. age 18: formally inducted as a Battle Sister on Terra with the blessing of the Ecclesiarch in person, assigned to a specific Order Militant, and given her personal power armour.
So there's no stage in here to be running around the battlefield with close combat weapons and no armour, whch in canon only fallen Sisters -- the Repentia -- are required to do.
This doesn't stop you having these units, it just means you're dealing with very heterodox Sisters, whom others might well try to burn for heresy....

Also I'm kinda skeptical about actual horse cavalry in WH40K, as opposed to bikes.

Finally, um, hmm, there's something a bit sexual about young girls who are given a weapon on a long shaft and only get initiated to the next level when they break it off in someone. Doubly so when the heroic girl who keeps on failing to break her, um, thing is named "Chastity."

Also Canoness Athena's weapon, the Labyris axe, is not only a classic weapon of female goddesses and a modern-day icon of feminism, but also, even primarily nowadays, a symbol of lesbianism specifically.

Of course you may've done all this very deliberately, but no one's said it out loud yet in this thread, so I figured it might be helpful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a link to that very detailed discussion of what canon says (and doesn't) about the education and training of Sisters.

 SisterSydney wrote:

Finally, um, hmm, there's something a bit sexual about young girls who are given a weapon on a long shaft and only get initiated to the next level when they break it off in someone. Doubly so when the heroic girl who keeps on failing to break her, um, thing is named "Chastity."

Also Canoness Athena's weapon, the Labyris axe, is not only a classic weapon of female goddesses and a modern-day icon of feminism, but also, even primarily nowadays, a symbol of lesbianism specifically.

Of course you may've done all this very deliberately, but no one's said it out loud yet in this thread, so I figured it might be helpful.

Yeah those are definitely on purpose.

Also, as a rule of thumb, Gungnir and other Nordic weapons are dibs'ed for space wolves. Just out of thematic unity. Why not rename Gungir as The Spear of Athena for example.

Also also, I think the whole "Chastity" thing is a bit overt for a penis reference, also I'm gonna say it now, if we could not have the whole "weapons are penis metaphors" discussion I'd be very happy, kthxbai

 SisterSydney wrote:
Finally managed to download this (um, zippyshare wanting me to download a .exe file was a little bit scary....). So:

[snip]

Finally, um, hmm, there's something a bit sexual about young girls who are given a weapon on a long shaft and only get initiated to the next level when they break it off in someone. Doubly so when the heroic girl who keeps on failing to break her, um, thing is named "Chastity."

Also Canoness Athena's weapon, the Labyris axe, is not only a classic weapon of female goddesses and a modern-day icon of feminism, but also, even primarily nowadays, a symbol of lesbianism specifically.

Of course you may've done all this very deliberately, but no one's said it out loud yet in this thread, so I figured it might be helpful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a link to that very detailed discussion of what canon says (and doesn't) about the education and training of Sisters.

Huh. Zippyshare never made me download an executable to get the document. I could just straight d/l the file. I just click the download button and Firefox brings up the download prompt to d/l the .rtf. Odd. A friend of mine had a similar issue (download button not working) but it was a permission problem.

Well, I know there's no desire to have this discussion, but just quickly, those aren't supposed to be phallic. The Sarissa is a representation of virginity, specifically in combat. Breaking it was (and still is to a degree) culturally a sign that a woman had matured. Its supposed to be a badge, like a member of the Marine corp. earning the actual title Marine, since you aren't until you graduate from boot.

They break the Sarissa in combat and bring it back, where it is refined and made into a weapon to attached to the boltgun. Any Sororitas who carries one is known to have bloodied the enemy and emerged from it alive. The only unit that doesn't keep there is Seraphim, who no longer require a badge to prove their worth as they are some of the most revered and faithful troops. I can see where you guys are coming from, but that's really not the intended implication. (And therefore Chastity, who has never broken her Sarissa, is essentially still pure in that regard. In the lore I've got in my head, she's done so much fighting they offered her to just convert it to a regular Sarissa and make her a Sister anyway, but she refused. She thinks its something she has to do herself.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 la'DunX wrote:

Also, as a rule of thumb, Gungnir and other Nordic weapons are dibs'ed for space wolves. Just out of thematic unity. Why not rename Gungir as The Spear of Athena for example.

I'm aware that Valkyries venture into Nordic themes, but they also float in the theme of strong female figures in battle. There's not going to be a valkyrie type unit in the Space Wolves, for obvious reasons.

Amazons, Valkyries, and Nuns (most especially modern day) are all relatively strong female figures, who are also typically religious. It fits the theme of the Adepta Sororitas pretty well if you take a step back from being theme locked that only Nordic things can be associated with Space Wolves. Strong warrior women who are independent and capable, form their own fighting force, and essentially command a great deal of respect. It helps broaden their lore base, which right now, even though there's a bunch written about it, is far too narrow. There needs to be breathing room to grow the lore some which GW hasn't done since...they introduced them?

 SisterSydney wrote:


The whole Battlemaiden - Horsemaiden - Shieldmaiden progression (I think that's the order?) is cool. It's, um, also entirely at variance with canon, where the progression is, as far as we can figure out from limited sources,
- to age 12: Progena in Schola Progenium, which trains all orphans of those who died in Imperial service, male and female, for future roles ranging from Commissar to the clergy to clerk of the Administratum.
- ages 12-18 (roughly): Novice of the Adepta Sororitas, with significant combat training, but trains girls of exceptional faith for all the Sororitas orders, e.g. Dialogus, Famulous, Hospitaller, not just the Orders Militant, aka the Sisters of Battle.
- ca. age 18: formally inducted as a Battle Sister on Terra with the blessing of the Ecclesiarch in person, assigned to a specific Order Militant, and given her personal power armour.
So there's no stage in here to be running around the battlefield with close combat weapons and no armour, whch in canon only fallen Sisters -- the Repentia -- are required to do.
This doesn't stop you having these units, it just means you're dealing with very heterodox Sisters, whom others might well try to burn for heresy....

Also I'm kinda skeptical about actual horse cavalry in WH40K, as opposed to bikes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a link to that very detailed discussion of what canon says (and doesn't) about the education and training of Sisters.

Shieldmaidens aren't quite a direct step up, just a sort of dubious honor since, basically, you get a Stormshield and you have to stand out front and get shot. Its more accurate to say Battlemaiden > Horsemaiden > Battle Sister. Shieldmaidens are more or less chosen to carry the burden of shielding their sisters.

Yeah, I thought I may run afoul of the lore as is, but since when is that some immutable object that GW doesn't maul to fit their needs? Honestly, this was done to give the lore some breathing room, as stated above. Besides, looking at that, there's really no connection from youth to Sister, no real reason for them to aspire to become what they are. They are kinda just told "Okay, you seem faithful. Here ya go, you're a Sister of Battle. Grats." That's not very interesting from a story or writing standpoint.

However, I would point out the 12-18 part could very easily fit the task. To modify for what you've said, they are taken in and processed by the Schola Progenium, then when they hit 12, the females chosen from amongst the orphans get sent off to the Shrine worlds to live the hard life required of being faithful. Not a lot of technology (therefore not a lot of cost of training or raising troops) but it does give them a sense of duty and appreciation for the Sisters, making them essentially quite loyal to the Ecclesiarchy and the Orders. Before they are taken off to become a full blown Sister in the ceremony by the Ecclesiarch in person, they must be tested to be shown they are worthy of the power armor. Those things are far more expensive than horses or long armed, vicious weapons. Even boltguns and their ammo should be less costly to produce than a suit of power armor. The only thing that might need to be adjusted is the age thing, which is stupidly limited mainly due to a woefully limited base lore.

The very first thing I saw when I looked into the Sisters was that GW really didn't give them too much. Everything about them just said, "These are nuns. Yup. That's it. Nothing else." That seemed entirely insulting and completely bereft of potential. I wanted to grow their background, make them much more interesting, rather than what is essentially angry nuns with guns. I want people to respect the Sisters as a well thought out group not just the batter wives of 40K.

That's what they are now, and its disgusting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Also Canoness Athena's weapon, the Labyris axe, is not only a classic weapon of female goddesses and a modern-day icon of feminism, but also, even primarily nowadays, a symbol of lesbianism specifically.

Competely missed the Labrys was associated with lesbianism, but honestly that wasn't the point of including it for me. I was including it because it fit Athena's theme, and the ideas of how that character came to pass. I removed my rambling at the bottom of the codex, but basically Athena's character was, at least for the moment, conceived as a result of a Beast of Chaos knocking up a pious woman, who begged the Emperor for a pure child. She was granted it, but the Beast came back and ate the woman after she gave birth. This is supposed to be a vague reflection of Zeus & Metis.

The girl, now an orphan, is very faithful, gets inducted into the Sisterhood, and later runs into her 'father' and kills him. He's got a power axe, and she claims it as a sign that no one can escape the wrath of the Emperor. The Ecclesiarchy cleans it up, purifies it, and she wields it in battle. The name is subject to change since its too obvious right now, just like the character's name being Athena. It was supposed to be entirely related to the Greek mythology, since Labrys was a minoan axe and that held the Labyrinth, where the King of Crete would send people into the Labyrinth to be eaten by the minotaur, who are Beasts of Chaos in 40K/Fantasy. As a fun fact, originally the axe was to be named 'Lydia', but then I switched Lydia to be the name of her mother. I may still use that if she names it after her mother.

I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised its used as a symbol of lesbianism, but that wasn't honestly my intention. I doubt, looking into strong female figures, I could ever really avoid running into it. However, in the end, it'll make things more interesting for people to think about or discuss, so I can't really say I mind. People will see what they want to see.

 NydusTemplar wrote:

 la'DunX wrote:

Also, as a rule of thumb, Gungnir and other Nordic weapons are dibs'ed for space wolves. Just out of thematic unity. Why not rename Gungir as The Spear of Athena for example.

I'm aware that Valkyries venture into Nordic themes, but they also float in the theme of strong female figures in battle. There's not going to be a valkyrie type unit in the Space Wolves, for obvious reasons.

Amazons, Valkyries, and Nuns (most especially modern day) are all relatively strong female figures, who are also typically religious. It fits the theme of the Adepta Sororitas pretty well if you take a step back from being theme locked that only Nordic things can be associated with Space Wolves. Strong warrior women who are independent and capable, form their own fighting force, and essentially command a great deal of respect. It helps broaden their lore base, which right now, even though there's a bunch written about it, is far too narrow. There needs to be breathing room to grow the lore some which GW hasn't done since...they introduced them?

Ummm, yeah but there is a Valkyrie unit in the Imperial Guard... also I'd like to point out the differenced between using the name Brunhilda and using Gungnir, the spear of the allfather. Also theme locking may seem restrictive, but when done right it's actually really cool.

 la'DunX wrote:

Ummm, yeah but there is a Valkyrie unit in the Imperial Guard... also I'd like to point out the differenced between using the name Brunhilda and using Gungnir, the spear of the allfather. Also theme locking may seem restrictive, but when done right it's actually really cool.

Problem is, GW doesn't theme lock. Space Marines, as a whole, jump all over the place. Even within the Space Marines proper codex, it jumps from theme to theme. It maintains coherence because the general concepts are upheld even if naming convention varies. I mean, look at Predator, Rhino, Razorback, Whirlwind, and Land Raider. Do those follow a naming theme? No, but they follow a general theme based on their unit type and their place in the army.

Also, yeah the actual unit named Valkyrie is in the IG, but these aren't called Valkyries, they're called Seraphim, they are just modeled on angelic women who engage in battle. Valkyries are a good example, in concept, of that principal. It gives them a bit more room in lore. Also, don't forget that things like Gungir, Athena, Eir, Freyja are just filler names. They aren't the final bits. They were there to clearly communicate who they are modeled after.

The naming theme for the Adepta Sororitas is actually intact, just the concepts on which they are based have been grown in order to grow the lore.

 NydusTemplar wrote:
Space Marines, as a whole, jump all over the place.

Well yeah, jump packs

Anyway, the role of Valkyries was less to take part in battle and more "divine air support", but that's kind of irrelevant.
There are certain things you can get away with being arbitrary but cool, but certain, more well known Nordic weapons just stick out too much.

 la'DunX wrote:

Well yeah, jump packs

Anyway, the role of Valkyries was less to take part in battle and more "divine air support", but that's kind of irrelevant.
There are certain things you can get away with being arbitrary but cool, but certain, more well known Nordic weapons just stick out too much.

Honestly, I don't agree. Its lances and axes amongst a game with swords, axes, clubs, and lances. If its really just the name that's bothering you, I'm fine with hearing suggestions that aren't just as on the nose, but I wanted people to understand where its coming from. It should relate back to valkyries, because that's the thought process behind the rather powerful and expensive unit the Seraphim are. Get them 3 faith points and you've got a rerollable 3++ who can destroy MEQs or just act like a weak version of a marklight. (Illumination Bolts reduce cover save by 1 and remove night fighting). Added those in there because of the common name the IG gives Marklight's as the 'Valkyrie's mark'. Kinda thought it would fit if they could mark targets, choosers of the slain such as valkyries and, to a degree, warrior angels are.

I know, in the mythos, they played a supporting role, but that's the gap between warrior angel and valkyrie, since the unit can do either supportive roles or offensive ones. They can tarpit, dive in on MEQs or lower, provide cover reduction for Sisters or allied armies, and are tough to kill. There's a lot of kit in those girls.

 NydusTemplar wrote:
....those aren't supposed to be phallic. The Sarissa is a representation of virginity, specifically in combat. Breaking it was (and still is to a degree) culturally a sign that a woman had matured....They break the Sarissa in combat and bring it back, where it is refined and made into a weapon to attached to the boltgun. Any Sororitas who carries one is known to have bloodied the enemy....And therefore Chastity, who has never broken her Sarissa, is essentially still pure in that regard....

Yes, all right, it's not just a phallic symbol, it's a symbol of -- um -- another thing that women are traditionally seen as breaking -- with blood involved -- when they become -- um -- mature. (Note that in real life breaking -- um -- the thing and becoming -- um -- mature don't actually correlate that well).

 NydusTemplar wrote:
I removed my rambling at the bottom of the codex, but basically Athena's character was, at least for the moment, conceived as a result of a Beast of Chaos knocking up a pious woman, who begged the Emperor for a pure child. She was granted it, but the Beast came back and ate the woman after she gave birth....

Oh, Lord, again with the sex thing. Also see TVTrope's page on the problems of Rape As Backstory.

[deep breath] You have a lot of creativity, and you've put a lot of effort into this, and it's great, but there are some things that it may help you to look at more closely. (Assuming you're not trolling me -- you seem sincere to me). Specifically, there's a problem with trying to make "strong female characters" and then repeatedly describing them in terms of sexuality and virginity, purity and violation: That's how sexist men describe women, too. If you describe a woman primarily in terms of sexuality or the lack thereof, you're still stuck in the same millennia-old trap, no matter how many strengths you give her.

There's plenty of slightly creepy fetishistic Madonna/Whore stuff going on in much of the Sisters' fluff and official art already, with the regular, pure Sisters wearing icy expressions and breast-augmenting armor while the fallen Repentia charge nearly naked into battle. I really, really don't think we need more.

For what it's worth, I'm not a woman myself, despite my profile pic and "Sister" in my username (although my real first name is Sydney, yes, with two y's, that used to be a masculine spelling, long long story involving three generations of Jewish assimilation), so I'm not claiming any particular gender prerogative to be better informed or personally insulted. I just have thought about this a lot, talked about this a lot with my wife and others both male and female, and I really think you need to be fullyy aware of the symbolism you're using. If you want to keep using the female sexuality stuff, fine, just use it consciously, deliberately, and for a purpose.

 SisterSydney wrote:

Yes, all right, it's not just a phallic symbol, it's a symbol of -- um -- another thing that women are traditionally seen as breaking -- with blood involved -- when they become -- um -- mature. (Note that in real life breaking -- um -- the thing and becoming -- um -- mature don't actually correlate that well).

Yeah, I was referring to the hymen. I did indeed know about the truth of the matter versus the common perception, but its the common perception I'm playing to. Still, in a society like the Imperium, where many groups are separated by vast swaths of distance and communication is, to quote a certain Eldar Warlock, 'not far removed from shouting'. Tradition and dogma, such as misconceptions, are extremely common. The entire Imperium is essentially a giant backwater, where things like this, and thus ideas formulated from it, are going to be very plentiful. Let's not also get into the fact a cult or church such as the Ecclesiarchy is going to be even more backwards when it comes to proper understanding. I'm, essentially, writing to theme of 40K as it is, and I feel these things fit it. If I've missed something important, by all means point me in the right direction.

 SisterSydney wrote:

Oh, Lord, again with the sex thing. Also see TVTrope's page on the problems of Rape As Backstory.

[deep breath] You have a lot of creativity, and you've put a lot of effort into this, and it's great, but there are some things that it may help you to look at more closely. (Assuming you're not trolling me -- you seem sincere to me). Specifically, there's a problem with trying to make "strong female characters" and then repeatedly describing them in terms of sexuality and virginity, purity and violation: That's how sexist men describe women, too. If you describe a woman primarily in terms of sexuality or the lack thereof, you're still stuck in the same millennia-old trap, no matter how many strengths you give her.

There's plenty of slightly creepy fetishistic Madonna/Whore stuff going on in much of the Sisters' fluff and official art already, with the regular, pure Sisters wearing icy expressions and breast-augmenting armor while the fallen Repentia charge nearly naked into battle. I really, really don't think we need more.

For what it's worth, I'm not a woman myself, despite my profile pic and "Sister" in my username (although my real first name is Sydney, yes, with two y's, that used to be a masculine spelling, long long story involving three generations of Jewish assimilation), so I'm not claiming any particular gender prerogative to be better informed or personally insulted. I just have thought about this a lot, talked about this a lot with my wife and others both male and female, and I really think you need to be fullyy aware of the symbolism you're using. If you want to keep using the female sexuality stuff, fine, just use it consciously, deliberately, and for a purpose.

I, honestly, hadn't been focused too much on it. I was just attempting to find a way to fit Athena's story into the context of 40K in a way that was appropriately grimdark. I'd be somewhat tempted to argue that 'Rape as a Backstory' doesn't quite apply, as listed by TVTropes, since it would only apply to her mother, not her. Now, I'll give that the spirit of the trope is entirely valid, but once more I point toward the very nature of the general Warhammer 40K lore. If sexism wasn't prevalent, then the Ecclesiarchy getting around the rules because of 'allowed no men at arms' wouldn't really work. However, if there's one thing about TVTropes I've long since reconciled myself to, it is the fact that I'll probably never come up with anything that isn't already a trope. I don't bother worrying about that anymore.

I mean, since its all still on the drawing board, I could see perhaps that maybe her mother was willingly complicit with the Beast of Chaos, but was rescued by the Sisters and declared pure of taint. That would retain her Zeus/Metis origins with a tie in to Labyrs/the minotaur, while removing the whole rape bit. Could even retain the killing of her father and the claiming of his axe.

For the record, however, I'm honestly just writing to the lore as is, aside from some minor deviations to open up new material. I'll certainly admit that I'm no scholar when it comes to the feminist movement, but it should be pretty obvious that Games Workshop doesn't place a huge amount of importance on this. Let's be honest with ourselves and understand that this is, in all essence, predominantly aimed at a male audience. Does that excuse egregious overuse of sexuality? No. But when writing to the lore as is, you have to admit that its a factor. I, for example, wasn't crazy with some of the previews of the new codex. The habit on the Sister was a bit on the nose for my tastes. Then again, I don't think the Sisters should just be space nuns.

I see the pictures of, what are easily described as super models in armor, and I recognize precisely their purpose. I've grown far too jaded to be truly offended by it anymore, in fact, there's only a few things that crawl under my skin these days. I also look at the whole of 40K and realize that this is, precisely, what it should look like. Each codex is, essentially, written from an in universe point of view with obvious asides meant for the reader to understand. Its why nearly every codex is a non-stop fapping session to how awesome each army is. Not only is it supposed to A) sell you on playing it and therefore buying the models but also B) to represent the internal view of what the universe sees it as. Those pictures you see are meant to be eye candy, in almost every respect, because it supposed to entice you in all the ways it can. Either for the Imperium's people, who want to see beautiful and faithful figures fighting for them, or for the target demographic that is 16-35.

Now, aside from the Battlemaidens and their hymen breaking, and Canoness Athena's backstory, nothing else is directly sexual about this. The Battlemaidens thing was honestly a way to accomplish two goals at the same time. First, it was to add a cheaper troop choice which fulfilled a sort of horde unit that the Sisters needed in order to open up tactical and gameplay options. I wanted to keep things purely Adepta Sororitas with only a little bit of intruding Ecclesiarchy, so that threw out the Militia. Second, it allowed for a growing of the entire Sisters backstory because it brought in elements of the Greek Amazonian mythos while fitting a sort of grimdark version of earning one's place. Compare them to Conscripts, if you will, since they are both essentially warm bodies, thrown onto a battlefield, only the Ecclesiarchy thinks of it more as divine providence as to who gets to join or who doesn't, the same as deciding who was right and wrong by leaving it up to God via a jousting match. You win? Great, you're right. You lose? Well, God doesn't favor you. It also ties into the zealotry that's quite common in all of the Imperium and the entirety of 40K.

Essentially, I did write those things consciously, deliberately, and with a purpose. I'm not against changing them, though, if its for the better. If something like 'Rape as a Backstory' is overused, then I can see about adjusting to remove it. However, I would argue against changing things because of a hair too many being sensitive. Art, as a whole, is either placid or bold. Comforting, or initially off-putting. It should get people out of their comfort zone just a little, or it is really just something to glance at once and go on without a second thought.

If you're heading down the path with both eyes open, then go boldly. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 SisterSydney wrote:
If you're heading down the path with both eyes open, then go boldly. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Thank you. Its easy to want to change something you see to be wrong, especially given the times and the more enlightened we've become by comparison to what we were as a society. However, our society has leagues of ground on a horrid regime such as the Imperium. Though I would want to distribute information and correct the massive issues, I know that simply isn't the setting. Its awful, it debases everyone in it. No one is clean and no one is pure. Everyone does terrible things, whether they think its right or not, and that's the point. There is nothing good about Warhammer 40,000. Everything is bad by every standard. That includes the Sisters. Though, in many codexes, they try and play this down, we know the truth.

What I can do for the Sisters is make it slightly more interesting with access to more themes and open it up, but I can't just deny the ugly truth at the core. To write to the core theme, I have to acknowledge its roots and move forward, taking the bad with the slightly less bad. That's all I'm doing. Besides, we wouldn't have had this conversation if I hadn't. At some point, you've just got walk down the dark path if for no other reasons than that others can consider it instead of ignoring it.

Funny thing is, when I put the codex out, I thought I'd be answering more crunch then fluff questions.

I'm not sure the WH40K setting is so unrelievedly vile -- otherwise we'd just hate everyone and walk away -- but I certainly agree it calls for a deliberate exploration of some dark places. My own (not particularly sexual) write-up for Novices has gone down some dark paths itself, enough that I think it upset at least one person... Your thoughts would be welcome.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I'm not sure the WH40K setting is so unrelievedly vile -- otherwise we'd just hate everyone and walk away -- but I certainly agree it calls for a deliberate exploration of some dark places. My own (not particularly sexual) write-up for Novices has gone down some dark paths itself, enough that I think it upset at least one person... Your thoughts would be welcome.

Well, hate is pretty much the most common thing in the lore. Imperium hates xenos, xenos hate Imperium, xenos hate xenos. Only real oddball out is the Tau, but I'd wager there's some skeletons in their closet. Everything in the setting is awful, Sisters butcher populations for perceived or real mutations, Space Marines are brainwashed and, for the most part, have lost their humanity. The common man, the one thing the Emperor sought to protect, is sent, millions per day, onto the guns and blades of enemies like you might stampede cattle to kill a rustler. Its a really dark, dark place. No one is clean, no one is pure. There are moments of good, but they are very far and few between. Its a dystopian future containing the worst of every regime our history has to offer. Entire planets are leveled purely for the thought that they are beyond redemption, which happens with frightening frequency, and all manner of horrors encroach at every angle for every reason. We're our own worst enemy, and there are a 'lot' of enemies to compare ourselves to.

Very grimdark.

I understand that, for a company like GWS, they have to shy away from sexual themes in order to market their materials, but that doesn't mean we have to be willfully ignorant of the likely truth. That's what I'm aiming to bring. Its not like they aren't there in the subtext. I mean...Slaanesh. Slaanesh. Anyway, can easily drop the rape bit, but I think the Sarissa concept, as a whole, is fine, as is the Battlemaidens.

I think, for me at least, the sort of hopeless fight is essentially what draws me to the material. To see the intensely heroic efforts just to tread water, if not backslide. The hero failing and succeeding. Its very well written and put together, though some of the original fluff is...shall we say, off the wall. It explores a lot of themes and doesn't mind pushing those boundaries which I find great. Its what brings me to the Sisters codex and the ideas.

I look at the Space Marines, and I know its GWS big money maker, but I see so much variation on a single theme. You've got the Ultramarines, which reflect much of the Roman Empire, and you've got the Iron Hands, an interesting but underdeveloped machine advocates. You've got KHHHHAAAAAAANNNNN! and his merry band of raiders with Corax's brood filling a similar vein. Salamanders are a curious one, haven't entirely figured them out but they sort of borrow from a few different places and, ultimately, are some of the more heroic Space Marines. So many different themes to explore within the warrior monk overarching theme of the Space Marines as a whole. This doesn't even take into account seperate codex type Space Marines like Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars (who got shafted out of their own codex), etc etc. Opening up the Amazon and Valkyrie material to go with the Nun theme seemed a good choice. Its not like GWS is really using those themes much, and it fits the Sisters well to be a religious fighting force with a growing progression.

My friend specifically brought up how it seems like the Sisters really aren't a full codex, but half of one, and he's right. You spam choices in slots not only because they are the best available, but because they are the only choice available that's really feasible. There's not enough variety and choice, and that's something which needs addressed. Now you've got the Maidens, literally Scout equivalents, which allows you to field and tell the story of a group of Sisters in a single battle. Before, your basic troops, and just about everything in the army, was just instant Sister. It didn't feel right in the slightest. Having these Battlemaidens, a horde unit which has functions offensively and defensively with spears/polearms while filling in the sort of Crusade you want in a group of religious zealots does it nicely. Having them break the Sarissa to earn their stripes is only fitting, they have it as proof to any other Sororitas they run into that, "Yes, I earned my spot in the Sisters." Sure, the Ecclesiarch is going to give them a pat on the head and their power armor, but not even Space Marine scouts, who must be less plentiful than orphan, faithful females, get power armor. And these women train for six years and are handed the same equipment Space Marines get? Doesn't sit right.

Now, going back to a much earlier question about Cavalry as a unit instead of Bikes, I can understand the concern. However, look at how many Cavalry units there are in 40K? IG, Chaos Demons, and Space Wolves. That's it. Bikes, meanwhile, are in just about every Space Marine Codex, including Chaos Space Marine, Orks, and Eldar/Dark Eldar if you count fancy jetbikes. Necrons, Chaos Demons (discs), etc etc. Sure, the cavalry aren't as effective due to not having inbuilt weapons, not being relentless, and not being able to turbo boost. However, for a slightly more expensive horde unit, it has a frighteningly fast cross map movement. Specifically, the Horsemaidens have access to Str 4, AP 3 on the charge, Str 5 with the proper Act of Faith. That's incredibly punishing to come up against, especially since they'll swing at Space Marine initiative. Their boltguns ensure their turns spent moving aren't a total waste, and the Stormshields make sure that their unit doesn't get chopped to pieces too easily by AP 4, while allowing them to grow faith points for when the time is right. Besides, if you bring in Athena and pull them into reserve to outflank with acute senses, they can really harass as they are intended to. Ultimately, I think the problem we have with cavalry units is the fact that they end up getting the short end of the stick on delivering damage. Rough Riders have no options to advance and, even though 10 costs you 120 points and can all but wipe out a squad of Tac Marines, they are just too easy to bring down with T3 5+. Slaanesh version has something going for it, namely move 12", run D6+6", and their acute senses/outflank, but they are all low strength rending attacks. Mobility without punch or punch without mobility. This unit is supposed to be a bit tougher, taken in larger squads like the other Maidens, but can be used tactically if you pay the fee. I think its got merits.

My biggest concern with the army, as is, is the build up of faith points and first turn acts being pointless except for a few well fed units. I'm also concerned no one will ever spend faith points on the units themselves. Also that the invulnerable saves granted by the Faith special rule won't really have a noticeable effect on anyone but Seraphim. Need to play test this.