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 Alex C wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I ordered through Brigade Games too - I've sent them a message asking for a shipping estimate/update.

I'll let you all know what I find out.

I sent one too.

First time ordering through them, currently not impressed.

they'll have been at the mercy of customs (and shipping companies) so it's not surprising they're behind Northstar in terms of getting stuff out, especially as Northstar seemed to start shipping virtually the day the books came off the press

Over at the lead adventures forum, there's a lot of interesting discussion on Frostgrave.

http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?PHPSESSID=10ff5abd808f2fb492ed942e85f7df35&board=92.0

Most of the discussion seems positive, but one odd thing that I didn't pick up from skimming the rules is the lack of a balancing mechanism. Seems it's not too hard for runaway power creep, as some wizards get lucky (or have talented players, naturally).

I've attempted to join the forum, just to get in the discussion, but you have to be "reviewed" by a moderator, and 24 hours later, I'm not yet deemed appropriate to get a membership. Sigh.

Got a reply from Brigade, apparently they had everything but the tokens ready to ship and only just got the tokens. Mine should ship tomorrow. Yay!

I don't see any balancing mechanism either. This has the potential to go exactly like Mordheim. Win 2 games in a row and the power level is just too different.

 Alex C wrote:
Got a reply from Brigade, apparently they had everything but the tokens ready to ship and only just got the tokens. Mine should ship tomorrow. Yay!

I got the same message - apparently it is a good idea to ask them "what's going on?" if you haven't heard anything yet!

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I don't see any balancing mechanism either. This has the potential to go exactly like Mordheim. Win 2 games in a row and the power level is just too different.

From my reading of the rules (although I haven't played any games yet) there isn't the room for 'expansion' of experience and money that Mordheim had. That game was extremely open ended (deliberately so) and required moderation on behalf of the players. With Frostgrave you're limited to your 10 unit warband, and the + experience wizards don't seem that much more effective than the beginner ones. And knights can still be one-hit killed by thugs if you play with the optional critical rule.

So, it's still not going to be an 'Infinity' or 'Warmachine' in terms of balance and efficacy for tournament play, but in terms of degrees of balance it seems more so than Mordheim for now, at least until the expansions come along. You could also argue that it was never intended to be that kind of game, the whole thing seems really old-school 70's fantasy concepts and D&D (a good thing or not, depending on your tastes!)

For those worried about balance, could you please post a definition of balance? It is difficult to discuss without knowing what you mean. Posts so far seem concerned about fairness rather than balance. And what is meant by "balancing mechanism"?

I wouldn't worry too much about "balance" in a game where, outside of your Wiz/Apprentice, hirelings are so expendable. And, honestly, even your level-progression on your Wizard only modestly increases your likelihood of casting a given spell, etc...

In practical terms, I still believe someone would have to run away with a hell of a lot of wins in a row before the disparity between players became insurmountable.

In other news... did you guys see that Amazon.com has put up the 2nd Frost Grave book for pre-order, and even has cover-art, and a proper description of its contents?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1472814096?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

I think the concern around balancing mechanism Mathieu Raymond brought up is in the campaign, and what balances games where one player has won two or more in a row, leaving him with a higher level wizard, more magic, etc.

To answer Mathieu, from reading it it does not seem to have as much run away power potential for the following reasons:

1. Only wizards (and by extension, apprentices) level up at all. Everyone else just dies, gets hurt, or gets a single magical item for a +1-2 somewhere. So only two models get more powerful in absolute terms, the others just get a tiny bonus.

2. Wizards level up based on what they do in game, not based on winning. Near as I can tell, it is perfectly reasonable for both to level up the same number of times per game, or even have the loser level up more.
So, wizards get xp for casting a spell correctly, personally dropping an enemy warrior, apprentice or wizard, a chunk for each treasure you get off the map, and then some scenarios have some options. So there is no bonus for winning

3. Getting gold and magic items is a function of getting treasure tokens off the map, and winning is usually a matter of who gets the most.

What this boils down to is that there is not a lot of benefit to 'winning' other than you got at least 1 more treasure off the map. It is possible to win and get relatively little xp because your wizard didn't do much personally. It is also possible to have a REALLY Pyrrhic victory, as dead soliders get a bit pricey (and take their items to the underworld with them) and a dead apprentice will set you back nearly the starting value of a warband pretty easily if you replace him. Plus if your wizard or apprentice gets taken out, there is a ~45% chance they will get an injury, either permanent or that will take them out of the next game (or kill them). So personally killing enemies (big source of xp) runs a good chance of getting your unarmored wizard killed off.

So doing better than your opponent is better, but like hemophiliacs in a knife fight it is entirely possible to win and be far worse off than when you started. Likewise, a loss could actually be pretty profitable if your wizard/apprentice carefully is picking off enemy warriors at little loss to yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, one other thing I forgot: even though you can level up multiple times after a game, you can only boost a stat or make a spell easier to cast once per stat or spell. So after two highly successful games, your caster will still have +2 max in Fight, for example, or -2 to the number needed to cast a spell. So a 10% change in effectiveness, which isn't bad, but not crazy either.

Right, there is not really a binary win/lose end condition. Wizards gain XP based on what they and their minions accomplish during a session.

It takes 100 XP to gain a level. For reference, you get differing amounts of XP (seemingly) based on the difficulty of the task. Casting a spell successfully (wizard or apprentice) nets a wizard 10 XP. Killing an enemy wizard nets 150 XP.

Once a wizard levels up he can do ONE of the following:

- improve Fight, Shoot, Will, or Health by 1 (to a maximum and only once between games regardless of how many levels the wizard gained)
- improve a known spell by lowering the casting number by 1 to a minimum of 5 (which similarly may only be done once between games)
- learn a new spell ... provided the wizard already possesses the spell (as an item, a grimoire)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
did you guys see that Amazon.com has put up the 2nd Frost Grave book for pre-order, and even has cover-art, and a proper description of its contents?

Yep pre-ordered last week! Although it could have been up for much longer; Osprey is quite good about getting this info to Amazon.

Although it's worth noting that in a campaign it's reasonably easy to get an extra 70XP every game (Wizards Lab base and the Absorb Knowledge spell).. and I guess that's somewhat significant when each level is only 100XP.

Hang on, pardon the ignorance, but do you still pay "points" when you build your warband, or is a more abstract thing?

You have 500gc to start with. You get more by recovering treasure.

Ahhhh, so it's like Mordheim then, most excellent! Thanks for the reply.

Yup, very much like Mordheim/Necromunda, only the Wizard and his conjoined apprentice are the only ones that gain XP and levels. The rest are just expendable mens.

I'm actually okay with that, should make for a faster campaign experience, with less models to keep track of in terms of what they gain or lose.

Yea, and it seems like most of the run-away power gaps go away due to that as well. In... one of the other threads we were talking about that. Basically winning doesn't get you anything in and of itself, other than at least one more treasure and 50 xp (half a level) than your opponent. All the XP comes from in game stuff, so the loser can come out ahead in many respects, and the power curve is fairly flat. At least at first glance; I haven't gotten a campaign in.

I don't think "winning" and "losing" are even things in Frostgrave.

Each game in a campaign is an episode of a larger story. Things happen, to the greater or lesser benefit of each player depending on her choices and the luck of the roll.

I don't really see a problem with power disparity myself... In a campaign-focused skirmish game you are playing for the narrative, not to have perfectly balanced battles. In fact, I'd consider it a failure if a guy who has won 20 battles didn't get a huge advantage over someone who has won 3. In Necromunda there is no balancing mechanism in battles, but instead a catch-up mechanic that makes lower level gangs gain more gold and xp. This is my preferred solution, and since the scenarios are usually asymmetrical, in no way does it mean that the higher level gang always wins.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Yup, very much like Mordheim/Necromunda, only the Wizard and his conjoined apprentice are the only ones that gain XP and levels. The rest are just expendable mens.

Maybe like Mordheim, but in Necro everyone advances in the same way.

What is the ultimate campaign goal when playing Frostgrave with others? How is a winner determined? Via the most powerful wizard? Or the one that lives the longest?

 BrookM wrote:
What is the ultimate campaign goal when playing Frostgrave with others? How is a winner determined? Via the most powerful wizard? Or the one that lives the longest?

There is no real "end game" you are working towards, so it really is just whoever's wizard gets to be the most powerful. Or as you said, the last one standing. I guess after your wizard was so powerful you would just start a new one, like how in Necromunda you would disband a gang if it got to be so powerful it wasn't fun any longer.

Now, the expansion (Thaw of the liche lord) looks like it is going to be a campaign with a "boss fight" and therefor an end to the campaign. That is based off what I've seen in the product description anyways.

 BrookM wrote:
What is the ultimate campaign goal when playing Frostgrave with others?

The joy of playing a game, honestly. Just like with RPGs.

I guess it'll also come down to how each player plays the game. I have a friend who, no matter what the mission is, only cares about killing as many enemies as possible. Even if it means he "loses." With the cost of hirelings, this could get messy, still.

And it's only a nitpick, but at 500gc, you'll never get full warbands of men-at-arms like you see in the pictures. It's just way too expensive. We'll see. I'm actually stoked about a fantasy game, that is quite something. Even bought clay to make ruins. Yeah baby.

Keep in mind you start with 500GC. The whole point of the setting is that your wizard is raiding the ruins of this city for treasure. In every scenario, you are trying to get more coin to replenish losses, expand your base, increase your personal power, and of course gain more minions!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Even bought clay to make ruins. Yeah baby.

The prospect of building snowy fantasy ruins is what sucked me into this ... I had been avoiding it very nicely!

 Manchu wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
What is the ultimate campaign goal when playing Frostgrave with others?

The joy of playing a game, honestly. Just like with RPGs.

I really like the sound of that!

Yeah the game honestly won me over in one reading.

I created this little FROSTGRAVE army builder / creator until someone comes along with something professional looking.
It is in Google Docs. Before using it you will have to go to the file menu and choose "make a copy" (for yourself).

https://docs.google.com/a/drac.dk/spreadsheets/d/1c0WNlIfzD6Qzarto2pemd9ypiMKoDCyEOsw-HSv_v6Q/edit?usp=sharing

I hope someone finds it useful! Let me know if you find any problems with it! At least I hope this will make your Frostgrave warband creation easier until some professional builder comes along...

Cheers
Draccan

Nicely done, it does what it's supposed to do, that's the important bit!

I've saved a copy on my own Drive, because the more I read about all of this, the more I'm itching to get involved!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are the digital rules only available through the Osprey site?

The rules are simple, it sounds like fun. We're having a go at it next Tuesday night. Iron Bovin will probably find a way to say it is broken, and I think he won't like the predictability of the back and forth nature of the turn sequence... but I'm getting old, I just wanna play a fun game.

Nothing wrong with that, but yeah, it may be a tall order for some people.