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 gigasnail wrote:
i had a big thing written up about comparing SL to a flyrant, but there's no point re-hashing this. if a slow moving ground unit is working for you, awesome. but SL only does more damage IF he can actually make combat with something other than a speedbump. flyrant starts lighting things up from turn 1, and you can take 3 pretty easily. there's really not a comparison to make here.

I think this represents a key misunderstanding. Swarmlord will never kill as much stuff as a Dakka Flyrant, but Swarmlord is better support, and exerts better board control. If all games were kill points, then Swarmlord would be as bad as you suggest. But in modern 40k with the wonderful Maelstrom missions, Swarmlord can help win the game. For me Winning the Game is more important than Killing my opponent's models.

The reason Swarmlord is worth the additional 85 points from the Dima is he is a Mastery Level 3 Psycher with Synapse, and can grant 1 unit furious charge or preferred enemy. That is worth 85 points to everyone. The reason he is still questionable is 1) the Dima is questionable for the points, 2) If he dies he cripples your army in a way that losing the Dima does not.

Coming from someone who played tournaments with the SL in 6th ed I have to say that there are some misconceptions about the unit.

I played the SL with 2 Tyrant guards. After facing several difficult matchups, I was pleasantly surprised that he was able to face 2 FULL rounds of shooting from a White Scars grav spam bike list. Given I was able to roll +3 for Iron arm and Endurance on him IN ADDITION to having him in the center ruin terrain. So my ~400 point unit was able to absorb ~3700 points worth (1850 x 2 rounds) of shooting.

All that aside, I did lose the game promptly after that because I didn't have the staying power to weather that for the rest of the game.

To add just another personal anecdote: I was match up against a Black Templar list in the same tournament and this match was where I realized that the SL wasn't tournament worthy. The SL lost in combat to a Smashfether Chapter master on a bike. Even with +2-3 Iron arm.

The biggest problem I have with the SL is that he doesn't have Eternal warrior. He NEEDS eternal warrior to be effective. To be honest, the invuln he has is next to useless. He should have FnP instead. IF the SL had a native 4+ FnP at the beginning of the game he'd be much more valuable. Who cares if he's slow. He still affects the game, in every game I play.

Moving from 6th edition to 7th edition: He is truly useless. Losing the forced reroll of successful invulns, going up in points, psychic phase making it much more difficult to pass psychic tests (and needing more psychic dice than the SL can bring itself), taking the chance of periling and completely losing your SL, and the fact that he's lost Biomancy access are just several of the reasons the SL isn't being played in the competitive scene.

If you can honestly say that the Furious charge or Preferred enemy buffs he can dole out outweigh the negative aspects I just listed, you're delusional.

Id rather give a Flyrant the norn crown and just buy adrenals for whoever I wanted to give furious charge to.

Swarmlord is the suck in every possible fashion.

So we want to write it off? Would have liked some batrep with it, but i guess we can move on, maybe i'll try him one of these days.

Back to swarm lists without their lord then.

Ill try to throw down on the swarm list...

-Hive Tyrant (230pts)- Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms x2, Wings
-Hive Tyrant (230pts)- Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms x2, Wings

-Hive Guard Brood (165pts) -Hive Guard x3
-Malanthrope x1 (85pts)
-Malanthrope x1 (85pts)

-Termagant Brood (160pts) - 10x Devourer Termagant, 20x Fleshborer Termagant
-Termagant Brood (68pts) - 17x Fleshborer Termagant
-Tervigon (205pts) - Electroshock Grubs

-Meiotic Spore Brood (45pts) - 3x Meiotic Spore
-Meiotic Spore Brood (45pts) - 3x Meiotic Spore

-Carnifex Brood (150pts) - Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms x2
-Carnifex Brood (150pts) - Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms x2

Formation(380pts)
Deathleaper's Assassin Brood (380pts)
-Deathleaper (130pts)
-Lictor Brood (50pts)
-Lictor Brood (50pts)
-Lictor Brood (50pts)
-Lictor Brood (50pts)
-Lictor Brood (50pts)

DLAB infiltrates up, Mieotic Spores lock in on that for deep strike, hopefully distracts enough for a turn or two for me to move the rest of the army up and start the killing. Mal are there for outside tervigon synapse on the gants. Theory seems solid at least.

Spoletta wrote:
So we want to write it off? Would have liked some batrep with it, but i guess we can move on, maybe i'll try him one of these days.

Back to swarm lists without their lord then.

He's just a point sink. If it were in a strictly fluffy game, for example if an eldar player took Avatar or some other similar handicap then thats all fine and dandy. I still bring Trygons to fluffy games because thats my favorite model despite it being overcosted and lackluster. But in a real game? Theres just no logic to taking him. I'd even take a reaper flyrant with electroshock grubs zooming around before him.

I've got a question about the Stone Crusher Carnifex. If it has Wrecker Claws does it have 2 sets of Close combat weapons, and thus an extra attack?

What if it has Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail?

The way I read it the "Carapace Chitin-rams" are the 2nd set of Close combat weapons?

tag8833 wrote:
I've got a question about the Stone Crusher Carnifex. If it has Wrecker Claws does it have 2 sets of Close combat weapons, and thus an extra attack?

What if it has Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail?

The way I read it the "Carapace Chitin-rams" are the 2nd set of Close combat weapons?

Sadly, no. Chitin-rams are just a piece of wargear that gives special affects to HOW, the SCFex only has a single CC weapon and hence, no extra attack.

Cambonimachine wrote:
Ill try to throw down on the swarm list...
[snip]

While that looks like a fun list to run, I'm not sure if 69 models at 2000 points can really be called a "swarm". Bit too much in the way of mid-sized support bugs and not enough gribblies.

Anyway, I'd be inclined to say a "competitive" swarm list would probably end up incorporating the Skyblight formation in some way. Not so much for the flying monsters, but rather for the ability to upgrade Gargoyles with Objective Secured and Without Number.

Just as a quick example:
---------------------------------
HQ: 1x Tyranid Prime with Rending Claws
HQ: 1x Tyranid Prime with Rending Claws

TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands (for the ability to glance rear-armor 10 vehicles)
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands

Formation: Skyblight
1x Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
1x Hive Crone
2x Harpies with Twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon (personal preference - Flesh Hooks on the Primes would also work)
20x Gargoyles
20x Gargoyles
20x Gargoyles

Total: 1850
---------------------------------

This provides 140 fast-moving, objective secured bodies at 1850. I imagine it isn't the most optimized list possible, but still... The main strength of Tyranid fodder creatures is that they can effectively deny large chunks of the board, either by literally taking up space or by threat of assault (hence the Adrenal Glands - no vehicle with rear-armor 10 is going to put itself anywhere near those Hormagaunts), for relatively low individual unit cost. Adding Objective Secured to everything further helps shut down portions of the board and forces the opponent to deal with them.

@Strat_N8, I wouldnt recommend the Tyranid Primes ever, the new codex made them 45pts (45pts!!!!) more expensive for no upgrade at all, but if you insist on them to be in a team of Hormagaunt I would recommend the AG to give him fleet so he doesnt remove fleet from the hormagaunts team he is in (the full team needs to have fleet to benefit from it).

I would just go for Malanthropes to give synapse and on top of that shrouding. A flyrant is better than 2 primes any day of the week. It could allow for flanking Devilgaunts with hive commander which is a nice swarmy and sneaky thing to do.

I do like the idea of Skyblight for a swarm list for the same reason you mentionned

Drop a unit of horms, add 2 malanthropes, attach one of the primes to each.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Cambonimachine wrote:
Ill try to throw down on the swarm list...
[snip]

While that looks like a fun list to run, I'm not sure if 69 models at 2000 points can really be called a "swarm". Bit too much in the way of mid-sized support bugs and not enough gribblies.

Anyway, I'd be inclined to say a "competitive" swarm list would probably end up incorporating the Skyblight formation in some way. Not so much for the flying monsters, but rather for the ability to upgrade Gargoyles with Objective Secured and Without Number.

Just as a quick example:
---------------------------------
HQ: 1x Tyranid Prime with Rending Claws
HQ: 1x Tyranid Prime with Rending Claws

TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands (for the ability to glance rear-armor 10 vehicles)
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands

Formation: Skyblight
1x Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
1x Hive Crone
2x Harpies with Twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon (personal preference - Flesh Hooks on the Primes would also work)
20x Gargoyles
20x Gargoyles
20x Gargoyles

Total: 1850
---------------------------------

This provides 140 fast-moving, objective secured bodies at 1850. I imagine it isn't the most optimized list possible, but still... The main strength of Tyranid fodder creatures is that they can effectively deny large chunks of the board, either by literally taking up space or by threat of assault (hence the Adrenal Glands - no vehicle with rear-armor 10 is going to put itself anywhere near those Hormagaunts), for relatively low individual unit cost. Adding Objective Secured to everything further helps shut down portions of the board and forces the opponent to deal with them.

I like it but why not have a Tervigon as HQ you haven't used a Second CAD so don't need two HQs. Tervigon can just sit back and throw out more troops whilst the rest of your list presses hard.

tag8833 wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
i had a big thing written up about comparing SL to a flyrant, but there's no point re-hashing this. if a slow moving ground unit is working for you, awesome. but SL only does more damage IF he can actually make combat with something other than a speedbump. flyrant starts lighting things up from turn 1, and you can take 3 pretty easily. there's really not a comparison to make here.

I think this represents a key misunderstanding. Swarmlord will never kill as much stuff as a Dakka Flyrant, but Swarmlord is better support, and exerts better board control. If all games were kill points, then Swarmlord would be as bad as you suggest. But in modern 40k with the wonderful Maelstrom missions, Swarmlord can help win the game. For me Winning the Game is more important than Killing my opponent's models.

The reason Swarmlord is worth the additional 85 points from the Dima is he is a Mastery Level 3 Psycher with Synapse, and can grant 1 unit furious charge or preferred enemy. That is worth 85 points to everyone. The reason he is still questionable is 1) the Dima is questionable for the points, 2) If he dies he cripples your army in a way that losing the Dima does not.

I can't really agree with these statements. SL handing out buffs to one unit per turn isn't worth the 350-400 points he's into you for after the obligatory guard. He is easily killed, contributes little and is a large chunk of points for what is basically an area denial unit. Over running the opponent's troops with dakkafex fexes, gargs, and flyrants and just taking the objectives is going to work better even in maelstrom than running SL.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Cambonimachine wrote:
Ill try to throw down on the swarm list...
[snip]

While that looks like a fun list to run, I'm not sure if 69 models at 2000 points can really be called a "swarm". Bit too much in the way of mid-sized support bugs and not enough gribblies.

Was Kinda hoping the Tervigon would be able to pump out good numbers o gribblies, but yeah youre prolly right I JUST started building a Nid force so im just theorizing here cause I have zero play time with them.

As a side note, I havent really seen (that I can remember) much discussion on the Mieotic Spores ITT and was kind of curious how everyone was looking at them? seems like out FA options are fairly weak overall (except the gargs in SB) but for their price they seem like a nice little option to mess with the enemy right off the bat. Not necessarily the most destructive force by any means, but enough to maybe divert some fire their direction?

I posted this over in lists a while back...this is my basic "fight anybody" list....as close to "swarmy" as I get I suppose...

"Horrors of the Hive!"

HQ: Winged Tyrant, Hive 240
HQ: Winged Tyrant, Hive 240

Elites: Zoey Brood, x2 100
Elites; Zoey, solo
Elites: Veno Brood, x2 90

Troops: Spinegaunts, x20, +10 Devilgaunts 80+80
Troops: Spinegaunts, x20 80
Troops: Hormagaunts, x15 75
Troops" Warrior Brood, x3, x2 Deathspitters, Strangle Cannon 110
Troops: Tervigon, Hive 205

Heavy; Tyranofex, Adrenal, Thorax Hive (Electro bugs in all Hives) 200
Heavy: Mawloc
Heavy: Mawloc

That should be 1830, add Hive Commander and it's done.

This list has changed a little, I used to use a Big Wormey. But these days it's twin Mawlocs.

If x2 CADs are an option, then I'll single out all the Thropes.

pinecone77, how did you get on with the endless swarm backed up with 2 trygons. Any luck? I'm thinkin of trying it.

Ps nice list, wish i had another tyrant and mawloc.

kryczek wrote:
pinecone77, how did you get on with the endless swarm backed up with 2 trygons. Any luck? I'm thinkin of trying it.

Ps nice list, wish i had another tyrant and mawloc.

Sadly, my health issues make it impossible for me to game...(since oct of last year ) So I have not had a chance to try it...it was built for 6th ed...I don't know if it has the same "mojo" now, since "Objective secured" became such a "thing". If I can improve enough, I plan on trying my "Enhanced" version (upgrades on the Troops). Thanx for asking.

Cambonimachine wrote:

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Cambonimachine wrote:
Ill try to throw down on the swarm list...
[snip]

While that looks like a fun list to run, I'm not sure if 69 models at 2000 points can really be called a "swarm". Bit too much in the way of mid-sized support bugs and not enough gribblies.

Was Kinda hoping the Tervigon would be able to pump out good numbers o gribblies, but yeah youre prolly right I JUST started building a Nid force so im just theorizing here cause I have zero play time with them.

As a side note, I havent really seen (that I can remember) much discussion on the Mieotic Spores ITT and was kind of curious how everyone was looking at them? seems like out FA options are fairly weak overall (except the gargs in SB) but for their price they seem like a nice little option to mess with the enemy right off the bat. Not necessarily the most destructive force by any means, but enough to maybe divert some fire their direction?

Unfortunately the last incarnation of the meiotic spores is really really bad. I don't know how they could do it so bad, it even goes against their description. They are described as high altitude mines, but the new rules are only low altitude, they are described as packing enough punch to hurt flyers, but they lost armourbane and are now simply S5. They got bumped in cost and no longer drop spore mines when they detonate, they do only when being shot. They no longer explode upon enemies like our good old spore mines do, they instead have to hurl themselves on the enemy with a BS0 scattering. All the spores in a unit must act as a unit, they no longer operate as single models...

Thank you for bringing this up now so we can all agree on something.

Swarmlord is not the worst nid model, that role falls to meiotic spores.

Spoletta wrote:
Unfortunately the last incarnation of the meiotic spores is really really bad. I don't know how they could do it so bad, it even goes against their description. They are described as high altitude mines, but the new rules are only low altitude, they are described as packing enough punch to hurt flyers, but they lost armourbane and are now simply S5. They got bumped in cost and no longer drop spore mines when they detonate, they do only when being shot. They no longer explode upon enemies like our good old spore mines do, they instead have to hurl themselves on the enemy with a BS0 scattering. All the spores in a unit must act as a unit, they no longer operate as single models...

Thank you for bringing this up now so we can all agree on something.

Swarmlord is not the worst nid model, that role falls to meiotic spores.

Swarmlord isn't just some horrible TMC, hes also, much like his ability says, the synaptic linchpin of your army. Just make sure you roll onslaught and suddenly hes fairly invincible, least he has been in my meta. Honestly, who has time to shoot at one guy in the back when he has a horde of over a hundred gribblies running down his throat?

Also, to discuss the Meiotic Spores and last codex Spore Mines...I am sad that the rules changed, but also glad, considering how powerful those little Spore Mines were when spammed. Nothing ever said you had to deploy them in unit coherency....and max spore mines certainly clogged up a nice chunk of the board for pennies. As for the Meiotic, it seems to me that you really only took them because they had explosives...in explosives. While they look almost pointless against many of the mainline durable flyers, aren't there quite a few fragile ones it should still have plenty of damage to crack open?

pinecone77

Sorry to hear that bud get well soon.

For the spores, the way I was looking at them is a 90 point distraction. If they get shot, they drop mines. If they scatter too far to hit anything, they get mines. If they hit, the unit they hit gets counted as moving through difficult terrain next turn (not a huge deal but a minor bonus) And each one can target a separate unit so you can slow down people for a turn whilst your guys get in range. Just figured it would be a neat combo with the DLAB, not something i would really take otherwise

Eldercaveman wrote:
I like it but why not have a Tervigon as HQ you haven't used a Second CAD so don't need two HQs. Tervigon can just sit back and throw out more troops whilst the rest of your list presses hard.

Two reasons. First is really just threat saturation. If you throw a Tervigon in the list it ends up being the only monstrous creature on the ground, making it target priority #1 for any high-powered enemy shooting which would be "wasted" on gaunts and would (usually) have difficulty hitting the FMC's. The Tyranid Primes, while overpriced, offer better threat saturation since the entirety of the ground force with them included has one consistent profile across the board (T3 + a lot of wounds).

The second major problem with a Tervigon is that it leaves the list with two fairly fragile sources of synapse (baring alternations that might cut into body-count), both of which are also high on the opponent's target priority list due to their other functions. The Primes again offer a more durable synapse anchor for the army by virtue of their being able to hide amongst the swarm units (jumping from unit to unit as their brood is depleted) and their being comparatively non-threatening.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
@Strat_N8, I wouldnt recommend the Tyranid Primes ever, the new codex made them 45pts (45pts!!!!) more expensive for no upgrade at all.

I agree the Prime is vastly over-priced. However, I think in a swarm list they are a necessary evil. In a more typical combined-arms or nidzilla list the amount of ground-pounding monsters helps keep synapse nodes safe by virtue of other pressing targets. In a swarm list, the synapse nodes become a higher priority target since it is both comparatively easier to wipe out a handful of T4 or T6 wounds than 20+ T3 wounds and swarm units are generally going to be inert for a turn without synapse to keep instinctive behavior in check. The Primes solve this problem by hiding in the swarm units themselves, forcing the opponent to direct their fire against the fodder creatures.

 fartherthanfar wrote:

A flyrant is better than 2 primes any day of the week. It could allow for flanking Devilgaunts with hive commander which is a nice swarmy and sneaky thing to do.

Agreed, but just because it is a better unit overall doesn't mean it is necessarily a better unit for the list in question. The main thing the swarm list needs is synapse coverage to keep things operating. A pair of flyrants could do this role, but it limits their movement and it makes them even bigger targets than they already are. The two Primes + skyblight flyrant offer better overall synapse coverage and threat saturation, since the opponent is now forced to target fodder units to neutralize synapse rather than being able to pick it off by itself and the Tyrant is free to go where it pleases.

Edit: After going through my collection, I'm just a Harpy short of being able to run the aforementioned list... Might pick one up on payday and try the list out at our league to see how it works in practice.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:


Swarmlord isn't just some horrible TMC, hes also, much like his ability says, the synaptic linchpin of your army. Just make sure you roll onslaught and suddenly hes fairly invincible, least he has been in my meta. Honestly, who has time to shoot at one guy in the back when he has a horde of over a hundred gribblies running down his throat?

Also, to discuss the Meiotic Spores and last codex Spore Mines...I am sad that the rules changed, but also glad, considering how powerful those little Spore Mines were when spammed. Nothing ever said you had to deploy them in unit coherency....and max spore mines certainly clogged up a nice chunk of the board for pennies. As for the Meiotic, it seems to me that you really only took them because they had explosives...in explosives. While they look almost pointless against many of the mainline durable flyers, aren't there quite a few fragile ones it should still have plenty of damage to crack open?

They can't even hit flyers any more, that's how bad they were represented.

That spore is pretty terrible. Defender a contender actually. I'll agree tis worse than the Dima. Possibly not Swarmlord level since it doesn't cost you just under 300 pts + HG tax + Zope tax even though his role is meant to be Synapse. Points dedicated to fail units alone, I'd say I stand a better chance of winning with a list with Spores in it than a list with Swarmlord in it, making the Swarmy worse to me. Taken in even amount of points though, yeah that Spore is absolute trash lol

Onslaught literally does nothing for SL. He has no shooting attacks and you can't assault after you run.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That spore is pretty terrible. Defender a contender actually. I'll agree tis worse than the Dima. Possibly not Swarmlord level since it doesn't cost you just under 300 pts + HG tax + Zope tax even though his role is meant to be Synapse. Points dedicated to fail units alone, I'd say I stand a better chance of winning with a list with Spores in it than a list with Swarmlord in it, making the Swarmy worse to me. Taken in even amount of points though, yeah that Spore is absolute trash lol

Shuppet could you explain why to me? Like i said never actually played with Nids (yet) but i figured the theory was solid as a cheap distraction turn 1? Basically no matter what happens they are dealing some sort of damage so it cant be all bad for 45pts?

I think he was saying it allows you to push more aggression out of a large unit of Termagants or something, making Swarmlord less likely to get shot at

But A it's completely subjective as you ahould never rely on your opponent to play like a potato B even a Devilgants unit is not that threatening just by adding average 3-4" move speed C it's attracting a completely different type of hostile fire, being massed T3 as opposed to Swarmlorda focused T6, and D you need to do more than avoid marginal amounts fire with Swarmlord to make him suddenly worth his points back, as it stands he could probably have a permanent Invisibility buff and still not be worth the points. Needs wings, especially at the current cost it's ridiculous he doent have them.

That thing dies to a sneeze, then drops about 2 mines that die to overwatch. It isn't a distraction, it is giving a juicy target to models that wouldn't be doing anything turn 1. No, for the cost of a venom i expect much more, and i'm a big fan of spore mines.

PS not saying wings would fix the Swarmlord he'd still be an overpriced CC Flyrant paying large amounts for a bunch of mediocre special rules. But damn, it'd be a start at least!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
That thing dies to a sneeze, then drops about 2 mines that die to overwatch. It isn't a distraction, it is giving a juicy target to models that wouldn't be doing anything turn 1. No, for the cost of a venom i expect much more, and i'm a big fan of spore mines.

Exactly this, I was typing a response and was even going to make the same mention of Venomthrope. That spore has less chance of making it's points back than even a Pyrovore or a Dima. It seems like excellent waste of points. Wouldn't quite say it's Swarmlord level, but just below.

What he needs is a 4++ ALL THE TIME, not just Melee