The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)

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**Zach**

See, Im not crazy!

Thanks for the photos man.

I use cork for the rest of the army, so maybe I can find a happy medium.

**SHUPPET**

Just use basing materials on the flight stands, this will not only look the most official it will avoid any issues

**Wilson**

There's a tournament coming up in a few months and it's the first one I'll be playing where LOW will be allowed.

I've faced off a fair few before and to be honest I'm not worried about them. Nids have some "alright" LOW but I'm wondering if they are worth bringing in a LOW environment or am I better off taking a list without them? Blowing 535-800 pts is crippling on an army, especially if its on a unit that underachieves.
(I know JY2 gave a pretty solid review of the LOW choices for Nids back on pg. 118)

The Tournament will be 1750, 3 games with Eternal War missions + Secret objectives.
Secret Objectives: you get given 3 missions and choose which one to accomplish per game, you can only use a mission once and each mission is worth 3 VP.
missions are like :-
1.Nominate one Fast attack unit, if said unit is destroyed you have accomplished your secret objective.
2. Nomiate one piece of terrain on the board, at the end of the game if you have a unit inside that piece of terrain you accomplish your object.

etc. you get the point.

So with that as the format, is it WORTH taking a LOW to counter others?
Is it WORTH allying in Knights? or do you think running barebones Nids+ LAN formation could handle it?

My list at present comes in at 1680 I think and looks like this;

Devourer Flyrant

Devourer Flyrant

Rippers
DS
Ripprers
DS

Malanthrope

Dimacheron
Hive Crone

Mawloc
Mawloc

LAN Formation
Biovores
Warriors - Stranglethorn
Exocrine

Do you think that is a good foundation for a tournament list or would you suggest a LOW to counter others?

**Zach**

Given that opportunity, Id bust out my Hierophant with a helstorm template and Malanthrope entourage.

**Boburrito**

Hello everybody!
I've been reading this forum with interest now for about 20 pages and have finally decided to post something. I'm really new to 40k but having done my research I think Tyranids are the army for me. I've watched tons of bat-reps and own the new codex so I know a bit about how they how work and have even theory-crafted a few lists of my own, but my biggest question is why we don't like to ally? From a fluff POV it's understandable but from a competitive one? It seems to me that taking Necrons as a Come The Apocalypse ally could really help fill in some of the gaps in our codex. For example:
-Overlord
-(Royal Court)
-5x Crypteks (Harbringers of the Storm)
-Night Scythe
That seems like a pretty good allied detachment to me. It's pretty much 20 DS haywire shots, which will obliterate any enemy vehicles (Except for an Imperial Knight with a 3+ Ion shield.) Now I understand that it's about 400 points and that it doesn't fit the force-org charts, but I'm sure that there are other ways to accomplish this that are cheaper and more effective. Sorry if this has been a long post

I really think that Tyranids + (Ally) can be a very strong army and would like to see your guys' thoughts on who compliments Tyranids best!

**Wilson**

Iechine wrote:Given that opportunity, Id bust out my Hierophant with a helstorm template and Malanthrope entourage.

I'd love to take a heirophant but there's one thing that's stopping me...

Centurions

Boburrito wrote:Hello everybody!
I've been reading this forum with interest now for about 20 pages and have finally decided to post something. I'm really new to 40k but having done my research I think Tyranids are the army for me. I've watched tons of bat-reps and own the new codex so I know a bit about how they how work and have even theory-crafted a few lists of my own, but my biggest question is why we don't like to ally? From a fluff POV it's understandable but from a competitive one? It seems to me that taking Necrons as a Come The Apocalypse ally could really help fill in some of the gaps in our codex. For example:
-Overlord
-(Royal Court)
-5x Crypteks (Harbringers of the Storm)
-Night Scythe
That seems like a pretty good allied detachment to me. It's pretty much 20 DS haywire shots, which will obliterate any enemy vehicles (Except for an Imperial Knight with a 3+ Ion shield.) Now I understand that it's about 400 points and that it doesn't fit the force-org charts, but I'm sure that there are other ways to accomplish this that are cheaper and more effective. Sorry if this has been a long post I really think that Tyranids + (Ally) can be a very strong army and would like to see your guys' thoughts on who compliments Tyranids best!

I think the main reason people don't go down the alley of Allies for nids because come the apocalypse won't be allowed in 99% of competitive tournaments.

But yes, 4 Harbingers of Storm can be brutal and for only 100 points they are a steal. ( I think 5 is over doing it

)

**Zach**

Sure, Centurions, but they dont ignore cover and the Phant can run twice in addition to its 12" movement, so a Malanthrope can almost ensure 3+ cover and then go from there.

Im hopefully attending a local 2000pt unbound cheese tourney soonish and will be bringing it for fun.

**Wilson**

Iechine wrote:
Sure, Centurions, but they dont ignore cover and the Phant can run twice in addition to its 12" movement, so a Malanthrope can almost ensure 3+ cover and then go from there.

Im hopefully attending a local 2000pt unbound cheese tourney soonish and will be bringing it for fun.

That's why people take tigirius!

I don't know if I could risk it. I'd be gutted if my heirophant was cut down first turn.

**tag8833**

Wilson wrote:
I think the main reason people don't go down the alley of Allies for nids because come the apocalypse won't be allowed in 99% of competitive tournaments.

You think it will be that high? I was guessing it would be about 50/50. About like forgeworld.

**ductvader**

Adepticon is the only tournament I've ever been in that allowed FW.

And even that was limited.

**Boburrito**

Hmm, ok Wilson, thanks for the reply.
So if Come the Apocalypse allies are generally discouraged then it seems like a competitive 'Nids list would have to be Tyranids only. Assuming only 2 resources are allowed that leaves us with a double Cad or a single one with a formation. So apart from Skyblight and LAN (That's the one with the biovores, warriors, and exocrine right?) are any of the other formations worth considering?

I think this idea has come up before but would taking a Trygon as part of your primary army, along with the Skyblight formation, be worthwhile? You would deepstrike it in (hopefully turn 2) so that respawned gargoyle squads could come back on the oppponents side of the field and be useful more quickly. It would probably be in range of synapse due to Flyrants swooping across the board and would provide another threat for your opponents to think about, hopefully saving an FMC with all the shooting that a T6 W6 monstrous creature can soak up.

Other than that what other type of Tyranid lists seem to be competitive? I won't lie; I like winning but I think that having fun and being creative are just as big a part of this game.

**tag8833**

ductvader wrote:
Adepticon is the only tournament I've ever been in that allowed FW.

And even that was limited.

It is generally an east coast / west coast thing, isn't it? I'm in Kansas, and We've been deciding for our owe upcoming tournament series the list building restrictions. Lords of War were controversial, but everyone agreed that 40k Approved Forgeworld units were in. Even Imperial Knights were more controversial, which is to say, not very. I've got to judge the next tournament, but for the following one, you better believe I will bring out the Malanthropes.

**Zach**

Im going to Mechanicon in October and FW is in there as well.

**SHUPPET**

Quote from an Australian T.O. from my area:

Although I haven't been an active TO for nearly 3 years thanks to a hectic uni timetable, I still keep in regular contact with several of the NSW/ACT TO's (and some other interstate TO's) and help out behind the scenes wherever I can. For a few years I have been doing a lot of list checking and comp scoring for other TO's.

We have also been having quite a few debates about new edition rules and whether we adopt unbound lists and super heavies as standard in events (or how we would adopt them in a way that makes it really hard for WAAC idiots to break/abuse the system), tweaking event scoring systems (your points for battle, painting, comp, sports), new mission designs and whether or not to use the new tactical objective rules/missions in the 7th ed rulebook.

And as I said before, 7th ed has brought super heavies into standard 40k under the Lords of War rules, they have ceased to be Apocalypse only units like they were in the past. Including a lord of war does not mean a game is now Apocalypse.

Also, 'Lords of War' no longer covers just super heavies either. As of last two codices, you'll find that both Ghazghull and Logan Grimnar have gone from standard HQ's to Lords of War choices even though their stats and abilities didn't really change - logan got his crappy chariot, but his standard infantry profile remains the same, as has Ghazghul's. Neither got any acutal buffs for being bumped up to Lord of War status. And we can expect more HQ's to become Lords of War in the future - Marneus Calgar, Mephiston/Dante, Imhotek, the Eldar phoenix lords/Eldrad, Draigo, Vect, the Swarmlord - all of them will likely become Lords of war in future GW publications.

Now, as for proper Apocalypse, it has a lot more than just super heavies/Lords of War going for it. There are other game changing mechanics involved - you have Finest Hours, Divine intervention, Strategic assets and unnatural disasters, all of which usually have global battlefield effects. Apoc formations also have effects above and beyond the standard 40k ones (such as vehicle attack patterns, psychic choirs and high command rules).

To my knowledge, no standard 40k event in AU has included any of these additional apoc rules, hence why I said these events aren't running proper apoc.

That being said, a few TO's have started running proper Apocalypse tournaments with the full set of apoc rules these days. These are usually team events with 3-4 players per side, and prizes are given out for achieving in game objectives rather than a 1st/2nd/3rd placing and so on. Eg. The player on each team who achieved the most of their given strategic objectives, the player with the most super heavy kills, pulling off some epic/heroic move like charging and killing a Titan with your warlord, etc.

FW/LoW is only looked at as a friendly thing where I play, and even then - it's not very friendly. This seems unlikely to change anytime soon. This is fine by me however as I prefer Venom to Malanthrope anyway, and their is nothing else I'd want to use for Nids. Maybe a couple of things I'd like to use for my Dark Eldar, but thats another story.

**coredump**

That quote doesn't say anything about FW models being acceptable or not. It only addresses LoW and superheavies, and additional Apoc rules. It doesn't address things like the malanthrope or '40K approved' units.

**Boburrito**

Well I've never been to any tournaments so I can't really contribute anything to this conversation but IMO FW models should be allowed as long as they aren't Apocalypse. They're still legitimate models with actual rules but they wouldn't be over powered in normal games, otherwise they'd be an apocalypse unit.

So another idea I had for a competitive Maelstrom of War list would be to bring 180 termagants for your troop choices. It sounds crazy at first but it's only 720 points (not even half a 1500 list) and it would be extremely difficult to kill all of those bodies. They could just sit and capture/contest objectives all game. Backing them up with synapse could be a slight challenge because I think you'd have to go overboard with it; the enemy will probably be focusing your synapse creatures. And then there's the obvious challenge of getting, assembling, and painting 180 gants.

**roxor08**

I've been doing lots of list tinkering since the drop of 7th and since Nids have gotten more options. Here's kinda the summary of progression:
First, there was Skyblight.......duh.........awesome.
Then, there was LAN, because Skyblight was quite a tax to get a 3rd Flyrant.
Then, I started experimenting with the Knight Titan Errant. I felt dirty, Nids shouldn't ally with anything other than nids....and I hate the Imperium.
Finally, I think I've decided in the current tournament standard of two sources is my Tyranid-Tyranid list. Behold below!

Primary detachment
Flyrant-2 TL devourers, Electroshock grubs, Hive commander
Flyrant-2 TL devourers, Electroshock grubs,
Malanthrope
3 Deep striking Rippers
19 Hormagaunts
2 Dakkafexen
Mawloc
Tyrannofexen-Acid spray, Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal glands
Allied Detachment
Flyrant-2 TL devouers, Electroshock grubs
3 deep striking Rippers
Tyrannofexen-Acid spray, Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal glands
Total=1845

Plan you ask?
Mawloc...duh
Flyrants....duh
Dakkafexen, oh yes, they're outflanking!
Tyrannofexen are gonna lumber forward behind a screen of Hormagaunts
Malanthrope will be trying to hide out of LOS behind the Tfexen as close as he can

The general thought was to overload the threats on Turn 2. Most armies that have the ability to deal with this many threats are already a terrible matchup for nids. Regardless, a Tfex with its 2+/3+cv/5+FnP is ridiculously hard to remove. Now there's 2. Likewise, there's 3 Fliers and hitting on 6s really invalidates lots of shooting. If you choose to try to remove the screening unit, you're not shooting at other important things!

What do you guys think?

**DarkStarSabre**

Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...

**Zach**

Ive thought about heavily modifying/creating a Knight to Tyranid conversion so that it looks like a massive bug but uses Knight rules. Id be okay with that in the same way Im okay with a Riptide/Wraithknight being an MC that can be poisoned.

But Im not amazing at conversions at all and even China titans are about $60.

**tag8833**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...

Yep. It is troops only.

I'm going to an rtt in about a week. It has been stressed to me that this is a "friendly" tournament, and I think there are concerns that I might come in and dominated. My main purpose there is to promote our upcoming tournament, so I don't want to leave people feeling out classed. With that in mind, I'm setting piles of restrictions for my list building to make sure that any games I win do not leave negative feelings with my opponent.

Here are my self imposed nerfs.
1) No FMC's at all
2) No Dakkafexes
3) No formations or Lords of war

So I figured I would go with a hoardish list:

Spoiler:

**Zach**

No 'friendly' tournament Ive gone to has ever been friendly.

Part of me wants to take this list to Mechanicon because it'd actually have a strong shot.

Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro

Malanthrope

Ripper Brood w/DS
Ripper Brood w/DS
Ripper Brood w/DS
Ripper Brood w/DS

16x Gargoyles

Mawloc w/AG

Knight Errant

1846pts

I lose a brood of Gargoyles and the Carnifexes, but gain a bullet magnet while 4 Flyrants go airborne to get to troop killing. Ive got tons of tyranid bits to convert a Knight, but it'd have to really look good and not mechanical, which on an all mechanical model is tricky to say the least.

**pinecone77**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...

Yeah,

I believe that Hive Commander is one Troops choice...It's crazy, but you could use Stealers to Outflank...

As long as you have plenty of other threats, they just might live to contact, you might want to splurge on a Broodlord as well...don't worry they'll never convict you, insanity defense!

**tag8833**

pinecone77 wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...

Yeah, I believe that Hive Commander is one Troops choice...It's crazy, but you could use Stealers to Outflank... As long as you have plenty of other threats, they just might live to contact, you might want to splurge on a Broodlord as well...don't worry they'll never convict you, insanity defense!

Genestealers have outflank without needing Hive Commander. Infiltrate confers outflank.

Unless there is something pinnable (Guard, Orks), The broodlord doesn't add as much survivability to your Genestealers as 4 more Stealers.

If you want to outflank something Devil Gants are your best choice.

**pinecone77**

tag8833 wrote:
pinecone77 wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...

Yeah, I believe that Hive Commander is one Troops choice...It's crazy, but you could use Stealers to Outflank... As long as you have plenty of other threats, they just might live to contact, you might want to splurge on a Broodlord as well...don't worry they'll never convict you, insanity defense!
Genestealers have outflank without needing Hive Commander. Infiltrate confers outflank.

Unless there is something pinnable (Guard, Orks), The broodlord doesn't add as much survivability to your Genestealers as 4 more Stealers.

If you want to outflank something Devil Gants are your best choice.

Yeah, I was thinking drop the Hormies, add 20 points from HC, and buy a Broodlord and friends...crazy, but doable, and good vs some. Heck Broodlord is a fair bruiser, and the Stealers give him extra wounds...

And it gives you possible Synapse in the backfield (Dominion).

**SHUPPET**

tag8833 wrote:

I'm going to an rtt in about a week. It has been stressed to me that this is a "friendly" tournament, and I think there are concerns that I might come in and dominated. My main purpose there is to promote our upcoming tournament, so I don't want to leave people feeling out classed. With that in mind, I'm setting piles of restrictions for my list building to make sure that any games I win do not leave negative feelings with my opponent.

Here are my self imposed nerfs.
1) No FMC's at all
2) No Dakkafexes
3) No formations or Lords of war

So I figured I would go with a hoardish list:

Spoiler:

The Swamlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard

3 Hive Guard <- need something to pop vehicles
Venom
Venom <- My 2 Malan's should arrive on Tuesday, but I won't have them painted in time

20 Hormagants (Toxin Sacs) <- MC Killer
20 Termagants (10 Devouers, 10 Spinefists)
20 Termagants (10 Devouers, 10 Fleshborers)

20 Gargoyles
3 Shrikes (2 RCs, 2 Devourers, 1 BS+LW) <- Marine Killers / Synapse
3 Shrikes (2 RCs, 2 Devourers, 1 BS+LW)

3 Biovores
Mawloc
Mawloc

It is the highest model count I've ever tried to run in a 2.5 hours per round tourney game. It is fairly light on synapse, but Swarmlord essentially counts as two in a list with this many tarpits.

You've taken the Swarmlord, the absolute worst unit available to Nids, with a mix off all the subpar playable units in the codex in an attempt to cover your bases (except for the Mawlocs and Biovores)... if you still do well (or even if you don't) and someone accuses you of bringing an unfriendly list, its clear it came down to nothing but player skill. If they are less knowledgeable about units on a competitive level and choose to argue otherwise, link them to this thread. That is a friendly list if I ever saw one. I'd recommend more HG over a Venom though as you seriously need to cover your AT a bit further as anything with say three Rhinos is going to be an inefficient match up lol.

**Strat_N8**

So, I wasn't able to play in the league last week but I was given a report of the 500 point meta...

-----------------------------
List 1:
1x Imperial Knight
1x Storm Talon/Raven (one or the other)

List 2:
1x Imperial Knight
5x Marine Bikes

List 3:
1x Wraithknight with Wraith Cannons, 1x Scatterlaser
1x Wraithknight with Wraith Cannons (Warlord via Iyanden)

List 4:
1x Morkanaught
1x Deffkopta (with Rokkits)
1x Deffkopta (with Rokkits)
1x Dakkajet

List 5:
1x Wraithknight with Wraith Cannons
1x Gorkanaught

List 6:
1x Flyrant with 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
1x Flyrant with 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
-----------------------------

Can I say "Ouch"?

I'm honestly clueless as to what to do now. I don't think any of my lists would be able to do well in that environment...

**roxor08**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...

Dammit! You're right!

Well then...maybe another Mawloc? Drop the Hive commander, pick up another few troop units? Possibly those genestealers?
I do really like taking a Broodlord for strategic protection of the Warlord. A Flyrant as a Warlord is a big liability...

**Xyptc**

Iechine wrote:
No 'friendly' tournament Ive gone to has ever been friendly.

Part of me wants to take this list to Mechanicon because it'd actually have a strong shot.

Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro

Malanthrope

Ripper Brood w/DS
Ripper Brood w/DS
Ripper Brood w/DS
Ripper Brood w/DS

16x Gargoyles

Mawloc w/AG

Knight Errant

1846pts

I lose a brood of Gargoyles and the Carnifexes, but gain a bullet magnet while 4 Flyrants go airborne to get to troop killing. Ive got tons of tyranid bits to convert a Knight, but it'd have to really look good and not mechanical, which on an all mechanical model is tricky to say the least.

There are some really good Tyranid Knight conversions out there built off of a Tyrannofex standing upright (those back legs are huge). You need something more than the usual Tyrannofex torso to add the bulk at the top, but it's a definite starting point.

There's an especially great one in this thread: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/46457/hive-fleet-daggoth-update-colossus?page=3

**SHUPPET**

Strat_N8 wrote:
So, I wasn't able to play in the league last week but I was given a report of the 500 point meta...

-----------------------------
List 1:
1x Imperial Knight
1x Storm Talon/Raven (one or the other)

List 2:
1x Imperial Knight
5x Marine Bikes

List 3:
1x Wraithknight with Wraith Cannons, 1x Scatterlaser
1x Wraithknight with Wraith Cannons (Warlord via Iyanden)

List 4:
1x Morkanaught
1x Deffkopta (with Rokkits)
1x Deffkopta (with Rokkits)
1x Dakkajet

List 5:
1x Wraithknight with Wraith Cannons
1x Gorkanaught

List 6:
1x Flyrant with 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
1x Flyrant with 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
-----------------------------

Can I say "Ouch"?

I'm honestly clueless as to what to do now. I don't think any of my lists would be able to do well in that environment...

Go Triple Dakkafex blocking a Zoanthrope, make them one unit so you can move weakened ones to the back for wound allocations, it's far more likely to be relevant at this level of points and you'll be focus firing everything anyway. It will also make a Catalyst / Onslaught roll pretty damn badass

The scariest list is the second one no matter what you take however

**Boburrito**

So how about this 1850 list. It would be pretty fun to play, not sure about its competitiveness though.

HQ:
Hive Tyrant
-Wings, 2 TLD's W/ ESG, ESG

Troops:
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
(That's all six troop slots filled)

Elites:
Malanthrope
2 Malanthropes
2 Malanthropes

Fast Attack:
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Hive Crone

Total: 1850

The idea is to force your enemy to either target the FMC's, the 180 OS termagants grabbing points, or the shrouded malanthropes giving themselves 2+ cover saves (they'll definitely be hiding in ruins or something.) Either way they'll have a hard time killing all the termagants but if they don't they'll be outscored unless I draw a ton of "Kill and enemy psyker" cards or something. It's just an idea though and I haven't tried it out yet but it seems like a really cool list that goes with the Tyranid fluff, overwhelming your opponents with an unkillable tide of smaller creatures backed up by larger ones that are even more difficult to take down.
So what do you guys think? What would make it more competitive? What would make it even more Tyranid-ish?
(I editied out the points cost of each category ie; Elites, HQ. Is having the points values as a whole category legal here?)