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Hi everyone, greetings from a loyal CSM player. With the release of the AM codex, and all the things that have been occurring over the past year or so, it is beginning to seem that CSM is becoming more and more a bottom tier army. We don't have the abilities that many of the armies have. Our access to psycker with divination is extremely limited, the DPs are forced to take at least one warp charge from the codex powers (which are terrible, don't lie), and our psykers generally costs more than other armies'. As for shooting, I think CSM is mediocre, nothing really special, nothing really terrible. Just average. As for assault, we are way overcosted, in an edition that does not favor assaulting. With all the servo skulls, and the over costing/nerfing of our assault units (don't talk to me about possessed, they still suck), we have trouble getting into assault.

After a weekend of some pretty intense gaming, it is seeming that the only real ability we have is the ability to MSU, but we have to take drakes (which is a crutch). Even then though, MSU is done far better by other armies, such as AM.

Anyways, enough with the rant. What are everyone's general feelings about CSM? Where do you think it ranks as far as competitiveness? Do you think things will just get worse with future codexes?

The CSM codex was terrible from the day it was printed and relied on wanky FA choices to beat non updated lists. Each passing day makes them more irrelevant.

I think CSMs will get better with future codexes, of course a future codex is proably a long time off. (like 5 years)

they're still not BAD now, but definatly suffer from an army with a lot of assault options in a shooty edition.

that said from an assault POV, they also suffer from not having many ways to bring that army INTO assault. they really could use some sort of "open topped rhinio" or something

Fundamentally the CSM book is not really a 6th edition designed army. You'll see some 6E rules hamfisted in, but almost as an afterthought. At it's core, it still wants to play like a 4E or 5E army, with mechanized assault troops out of closed topped rhino's, AV12 support vehicles, and small units of heavy CC units that work best when they can consolidate up a line.

You're saying CSM are bad because they don't have divination? Divination does not a good army make, nor a lack a bad army.

Their shooting is just average, this is true, but that doesn't make them bad either.

The reason you think the're bad is because you think that their close combat is overpriced, which is painfully inaccurate. CSM has some of the best close combat in the game, and for not ridiculous prices either.

Yeah, 6th ed hates assault, which is what caps the highest that CSM can rise, but that doesn't make CSM a bad army, it just makes it not the best.

 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex was terrible from the day it was printed and relied on wanky FA choices to beat non updated lists. Each passing day makes them more irrelevant.

This pretty much summarizes my feelings on this, unfortunately.

 Ailaros wrote:
You're saying CSM are bad because they don't have divination?

Uhm... But they do have Divination... 'cept if you want the black mace/Khorne axe/magic flamer.

 Ailaros wrote:
You're saying CSM are bad because they don't have divination? Divination does not a good army make, nor a lack a bad army.

Their shooting is just average, this is true, but that doesn't make them bad either.

The reason you think the're bad is because you think that their close combat is overpriced, which is painfully inaccurate. CSM has some of the best close combat in the game, and for not ridiculous prices either.

Yeah, 6th ed hates assault, which is what caps the highest that CSM can rise, but that doesn't make CSM a bad army, it just makes it not the best.

No, they are overpriced. If a unit gets cut in half or in 2/3 before it get's into assault, that is a huge dump in points. Perhaps you are looking at value before the smoke clears. In reality, the points we spend on cc units are not worth anywhere near as much as other armies. With the rules the way they currently are, with the lack of options to get into CC, our CC units should be much much cheaper. Right now it's a waste to take KBs or possess. Spawn are cool, but then you have to worry about AA (because you can't take drakes). If you'd like to be more specific, please let me know what you mean. I am open to different ways of thinking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You're saying CSM are bad because they don't have divination?

Uhm... But they do have Divination... 'cept if you want the black mace/Khorne axe/magic flamer.

I said it was limited access, not no access. And we get one sorcerer that can take it. That means our roles are random, and we risk not getting what we want (prescience isn't the only reason to take divination).

In general I find CC units are priced based on the fact that on a good turn of assault they can flat out murder a unit through sweeping advances. If that was changed they could easily be points costed a good bracket lower and be more likely to be seen on the table even with the current assault rules.

If a codex relies on one unit to keep it somewhat competative, it's not a good codex.
Sure, there are other builds out there, but they're not going to be very good. Some are even very fun builds and might surprise a player who hasn't seen it yet. But on average the Chaos Marines are underwhelming.
Warp Talons, Mutilators, Defilers, 1Ksons, Possessed, champions that must challenge, expensive, not ver good pyskers, very few options for vehicles, etc etc.
Even with this, the Dex isn't weak. It's "Alright." Maybe 7.0.

I feel Chaos forces are always doomed to a degree of irrelevance due to their being a polar opposite of Imperial forces, which receive constant attention, even more so now with the advent of mini-codices.

Imperial Guard, Imperial Knights, Sisters of Battle (even in their tiny digital release), Space Marines, Inquisition, etc. Chaos is seen as the main enemy of the Imperium, and their forces lack the volume of releases that Imperial ones do, with fosters that sense of irrelevancy.

Nuln_Oil wrote:If a unit gets cut in half or in 2/3 before it get's into assault, that is a huge dump in points.

I don't think you understand how CC armies work. It's not a problem with the CSM codex here.

 Ailaros wrote:

Nuln_Oil wrote:If a unit gets cut in half or in 2/3 before it get's into assault, that is a huge dump in points.

I don't think you understand how CC armies work. It's not a problem with the CSM codex here.

I don't think you know how to make a point. Thank you for the conclusion without any analysis. Also, thank you for assuming that am only arguing that CSM sucks as assault, which I am not.

I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up. The unit gets shot to pieces, can't deep strike, runs the risk of the LR getting popped, and often times get widdled away before getting anywhere near assault. It matters not if it is a result of the edition; what matter is that 300 points in assault units in the CSM codex, and other assault codexes, do not go anywhere near as far as 300 points in a shooty army. That, combined with the fact that CSM is meant to assault, makes the codex really irrelevant.

If you want to troll, just let me know and i'll ignore your vague, nonresponsive points.

CSM are indeed pretty bad. They pay a premium to put models on the table that other players tell them to put back in the model carrier at a pretty staggering rate.

Yeah, CSM suck right now. More to do with the core rules than the codex itself in my opinion, but the CSM book has also been lacking in flavor since the 4th edition update. Cultists are nice, and I kinda like the idea of units like the warpsmith, the dark apostle and the new daemon engines, even if they kinda fail rules-wise (and in the case of the daemon engines, model-wise as well), and it goes without saying that the way they've treated cult units is kinda lame.

Careful what you wish for, though. Tau were a bottom tier army all through 5th, and I was hopeful for a new codex since I was tired of always losing or at best playing for a draw, and look how that turned out. I have thousands of points worth of Tau, god only knows how much money sunk into this army...all useless now. Not because the rules are bad, but because they're too good, and no one will let me play with them anymore. So even when GW turns its Sauron-esque, all-seeing eye at you, from betwixt its pointed ivory towers, it can sometimes end up being worse than if they had continued to look the other way.

Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.

 Sidstyler wrote:
So even when GW turns its Sauron-esque, all-seeing eye at you, from betwixt its pointed ivory towers, it can sometimes end up being worse than if they had continued to look the other way.

Don't you worry there, CSM have already had their time in the sun. We get a nice reminder every time a complaint is levelled against the book, as it is swiftly buried under a tide of "You just want 3.5 back, have some more T5 Obliterators and Infiltrating Sirens you WAAC pig".
I find it curious that the 'chaotic' elements of the book are actually alright, for the most part. Obliterators, Zombies, Heldrakes, Plagues and Daemon Princes are well documented. Even the 'Fiends aren't that bad really. Of course there are plenty of chaotic bits wallowing at the bottom (Sons, Mutilators, Possessed) but for the most part, the backbone of the book is actually uniquely Chaos. You won't see the tournament-toppers starting with Havocs and Rhinos.

As always, I think it's simply that they don't quite know what to do with the army and so it is left in a state of limbo where hundreds of themes are lightly touched upon, and units get a bit of a nod without any distinct flavour of their own. Chaos could make a fast assault list, but then it also needs to bring firepower for the Iron Warriors. It needs to do a daemonic nasties list for the 'Bearers, and also reflect Huron's turncoats. It tries to tick too many boxes, cannot complete all of them in the space it was allowed, and so ends up representing nothing. It is the generic smear of Chaos, from a distance it looks alright but up close, you can see where the cracks have been bodged over with imagination and willing ignorance.

While Heldrakes, Zombies and the Black Mace exist in their current state they will always have a place, even if it's gimmicky or as Allies. But I do hate the current state of them and would love some fresh ideas pumped into them to make them distinct as an army. It's all well and good saying that 40k Marines are not the 30k Legions, so give us an identity to latch onto and a clear direction for the army that cannot be better-replicated by another book.

 Ailaros wrote:

Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.

You can't control the board when you are tabled. 40k IS a game where Eldar can table CSM. So I'm not seeing where you are going with this.

I think the power of CSM lies within the dual Foc. Consider that that things are good need to be multiplied. My list below has only lost 5 games since the book dropped and I play against a variety of opponents in a semi-competitive environment.

The key is to rush the enemy with as much of your fast and hard hitting units as possible. Make them choose what to shoot and if it dies you will still have the other to take its place.

Lord - MoK, Jugger, AoBF, SoC, Votlw, GoM - 185
Sorcerer - ML3, bike, SoC, Spell Familiar, GoM - 180
10 cultists - 50
10 cultists - 50
10 cultists - 50
14 cultists - flamer - 71
Heldrake - flamer - 170
Heldrake - flamer - 170
Heldrake - flamer - 170
5 Spawn - MoN - 180
5 Spawn - 150
Mauler Fiend - Tendrils - 135
Mauler Fiend - Tendrils - 135
2 Oblits - MoN - 152
2 Oblits - MoN - 152

TOTAL = 2000

The idea is that everything is in your face by T2 and it really screws with target priority. Oblits will be deep striking while the 10 man cultists sit in reserve and claim objectives late in game. The 14 man cultists will start on the board to help make the numbers more balanced and also act as a meat shield if its purge the alien.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Yeah, CSM suck right now.
Cultists are nice,

Cultists are nice, 5ppm with an autogun/lasgun. Consripts are 3ppm and suffer from worse bs, but then they have cheaper ways to become fearless, carry frag grenades and if I am correct have a better armor save.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.

You can't control the board when you are tabled. 40k IS a game where Eldar can table CSM. So I'm not seeing where you are going with this.

This!

 Accolade wrote:
I feel Chaos forces are always doomed to a degree of irrelevance due to their being a polar opposite of Imperial forces, which receive constant attention, even more so now with the advent of mini-codices.

Imperial Guard, Imperial Knights, Sisters of Battle (even in their tiny digital release), Space Marines, Inquisition, etc. Chaos is seen as the main enemy of the Imperium, and their forces lack the volume of releases that Imperial ones do, with fosters that sense of irrelevancy.

Why IG, now AM are not BB with CSM always puzzled me. It would fix so many of CSM problems.

Ally with Daemons seems to be the only real option.

As a Tau player who currently fields a CC CSM army I am finding them fun to play even in a competitive environment. I completely understand the OP comments. They cost a lot, they can be tabled easily but if you play right you can avoid some of the pitfalls.

I don't run a Heldrake. I control the board with hoards of cultist. These run the board by spamming my opponents shootiest units and holding them for at least a turn or two while i move my more average shooting units into a good position.

Yes it's a shooty edition but CSM have huge numbers cheaply in Cultist. Let your enemy mow down a whole unit of cultists, big whoop! They are pretty much pointless in cost and can control objectives and they distract most players from what your small marine units are doing....Human shield those little buggers!!!

Most of the time i play hardcore SM opponents who are tank and heavy weapon heavy.

Not disagreeing with the post so much as saying it is a game of tactics, and every army has a chance to take a victory just this edition it's a tad harder for us!!!!

Wait a month, see if that assault friendly 7th edition comes out, and *then* sell your CSM and never look back

The CSM codex is a failure in every way possible. It is not competitive in the slightest, in fact I'd say it is the second worst army in the game only edging out Blood Angels. It cannot be played In a rewarding and fun way as it is a predictable and boring army to play and lacks any synergy and makes me want to tear my hair out when I make a list. And, it cannot be played in a fluffy way unless you want to play Abaddon and random renegades or Khârn/Ahriman/Typhus/Lucius and his band of foots sloggers. The worst part is how awesome the CSM fluff is which keeps me from ditching the army even though I know it's just going to frustrate me.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.

You can't control the board when you are tabled. 40k IS a game where Eldar can table CSM. So I'm not seeing where you are going with this.

This!

But you'd obviously not have a problem if it was Eldar having trouble tabling your Chaos though, right?

Sad. I used to be intimidated by these guys.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.

You can't control the board when you are tabled. 40k IS a game where Eldar can table CSM. So I'm not seeing where you are going with this.

This!

But you'd obviously not have a problem if it was Eldar having trouble tabling your Chaos though, right?

I think most people would not, it shouldn't be an easy thing to table someone...

Typhus, Zombies, Obliterators , Heldrakes and Plague Marines are some of the best and most competitive units in the entire game of 40K.

Is there a lot of useless crap in the book? Yes but the units mentioned above are a top tier army .

As a CSM + Daemons Player myself, after starting Daemons, I simply find they do everything better than CSM.

My CSM are horrendously over priced, weak in general and simply cannot perform as well as my Daemons in terms of Assault. In terms of shooti? Who cares? Daemons have the means to GET into CC through sheer speed of units. That hilarious attempt from GW to write up the Crimson Slaughter dex for Possessed and add "Moves like beasts" Cmon FFS, that should be staple on the over priced bugger from the get go. And no power weapons? Random chance to get AP3 or rending? Yeah... No... The dex was as well thought out as removing those 57 cent parts from General Motors vehicles.