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 heartserenade wrote:
Why isn't a full refund possible?!?

Presumably because the guy has spent the money already.

 Chute82 wrote:
Flying a painter out to you sounds to good to be true.. The price you payed per model is insane and them not picking out the small details on the models is just pure laziness. Figure out what the cost would be at a level 2 compared to the level 4/6 that you payed. Ask for that % of a refund.

Trick me once shame on you, trick me twice shame on me.

He stands by all those models being at least a 3/5 so that was the refund he offered.

The painter flying out would be a great resolution providing he comes for 3 weeks. He said on the youtube channel that if i had sent these back they would all have been fixed already which worries me. It is IMPOSSIBLE to paint this many models that fast. (with any quality)

If i was rich I would hire another company to paint them as expected and them show a before and after so it will be even more evident.

As soon as he responds about the painter coming out with details I will post another video going over my original spec sheet and a comparisons between the images i sent and what was painted. Iron is NOT matte back.

But on his end, how much would plane tickets, board and lodging, food, and labor pay of a painter would be for 3 weeks? Would that exceed how much he's willing to refund you?

 heartserenade wrote:
But on his end, how much would plane tickets, board and lodging, food, and labor pay of a painter would be for 3 weeks? Would that exceed how much he's willing to refund you?

no idea how much he pays the painters. His refund offer is too low as it will not allow a repaint. its 50% of what i got estimates for repaint. They had 3 chances to fix these issues over the past month so honestly their cost is no longer my concern. I should not have to tell a painted "Hey can you please paint the side of my cannon instead of leaving it primer black?". But even after i told them 3 times just that they still did not.

I don't trust sending the models to them again so the only way to "repair" the damage would be to have a painter under supervision. Keep in mind he offered this solution, and I inquired about the specifics so I am not sure what he had in mind yet.

I am waiting to post the follow up video so i can tell what he opted to do. But i will go over all the communication that was sent during this process.

Do not accept the painter coming out. It's not worth the aggravation, and it won't fix the issue. I say this as a pro painter with a good few years experience- the task in hand is at least 8-10 weeks full time work.

This is all just blowing hot air. It's interesting to see exactly how outlandish this suggestion will become, but please don't think of it as an actual solution; it is not.

Edit; it is also likely to be a very bad experience for the painter.

Edit2: if you actually want this fixed (rather than pushing BTP to see how insane Shawn really is), drop a line to GMM or Garden Ninja, pay a reasonable deposit and reasonable amount for work and get a quality result back, you really have picked what is widely regarded as the worst established commission studio.

winterdyne wrote:
Edit; it is also likely to be a very bad experience for the painter.

This is a really huge concern, as well. And a grumpy painter might make things worse for you because you have to deal with him/her (thus stressing you out) and it might affect the quality of their work. I sure as hell can't paint when I'm in a bad mood, and flying to another state and staying in a place you're not familiar with for weeks because someone didn't do their job right (and I doubt that the painter is gonna be paid well, I bet to cover for the whole operation he would be paid less than a full refund) would sure put anyone in an understandable bad mood.

In the words of Judge Wopner - Take Him To Court.

This is what small claims court is for.

Get others to join you.

He may not have started as a con man, but he has become one.

It looks like you can document what you were ordering, and it looks like you can document that what he sent you was not what you ordered.

And the terms of service that he has tried to push on you will work against him.

Treat him like you would any other fraudster that has scammed the better part of a thousand dollars out of you.

The Auld Grump

havent read the whole topic but an advise from me..
take him to court.
the overall money envolved is way to much to be shoot into the abyss.
you have clearly a contract with him.
for example.. you order a professional painter to paint your living room.
when seeing his work you notice he hasnt painted any corners, spilled paint on your carpet etc...
exactly this case has happened.
maybe its a special topic and you have to invest some money for a lawyer ( if you dont have an insurance convering this case) but in the end he has to pay your costs..
also maybe check his entry for his company, if he is paying taxes etc etc...

Thinking about the whole flying the painter over thing...

Here's how I see this going: If the painter comes over you two will eventually reach a compromise and the painter will have to leave early before the entire army is complete, so then at the end of the day Shawn can say "After hearing he wasn't satisfied we took the liberty to fly a painter over free of charge and that still didn't work". Muddying the case to his benefit. The longer this drags through the mud the more attrition you'll be put through the more likely you are to just let them go.

 Breotan wrote:
I don't know if it was technically a scam or not but it violated KS rules because it was basically using crowdfunding to purchase supplies so they could build/sell armies and not really a project in and of itself. They offered "credit" toward getting your own army painted in return. It really wasn't a good deal for the people pledging and it went down in flames rightly so.

Yeah, it was pretty friggin stupid. Their project was to paint armies. Except... they already paint armies. If you paid them money through kickstarter, you could have them paint you an army later. You know, like you could already do.

It was essentially a Ponzi scheme for them to use KS funds to pay for existing commissions, and hope they got something in later to pay for the armies the guys pledged for during the KS. But why would anyone who wanted their crap service not just go through their store like normal? It was clear they fronted a lot of the money themselves, as there was a massive spike, then a plateau. They got close, which means that they'd already dumped all their available funds into the "project", otherwise they could have backed themselves at the end to push it over the line so they would have received the remainder of the funds.

The guy who runs it is some conspiracy theorist wacko - I remember when he'd only accept paypal or gold, because government currency was just "fiat currency". Dumbass, what do you think that paypal transaction pays you in?

Sorry you got ripped off man.

 Quarterdime wrote:
Thinking about the whole flying the painter over thing...

Here's how I see this going: If the painter comes over you two will eventually reach a compromise and the painter will have to leave early before the entire army is complete, so then at the end of the day Shawn can say "After hearing he wasn't satisfied we took the liberty to fly a painter over free of charge and that still didn't work". Muddying the case to his benefit. The longer this drags through the mud the more attrition you'll be put through the more likely you are to just let them go.

This. It sounds very much like the painter offer is a poison pill, because if it isn't the bloke is clearly a bit mad - there's no way the costs associated with flying someone to a different part of the country, putting them up, and paying for their time would come to less than the partial refund you requested. Stick to your guns, and if they won't give you the "as if it were level 2" refund it's lawyerin' time.

@tenebre
Ask him for a full refund on service in exchange for the army.

-You will eat the cost of that army, but you will get the 8-9 grand back in service it sounds like you spent. Use it to rebuy your models and find a new service or paint it yourself.

-They have an army that is according to them a high standard that they "should" be able to sell at a profit. They still win.

In the end you will lose out, but I am sure there is no way of you walking away from this without a loss. Even small claims court will cost you more time and money.

Offer it to him and see what he says.

It puts his money where his mouth is. According to him and his review it is a stellar army so why wouldn't he do it?

My word. this video, that army.....

I have no words to say, that army deserved so much more better than that.

Like my friend "end" said, "if somebody sends you a forge world army to paint, you'd go all out on that gak"

Not this worthless paint job of a scam.

BTP painting really really dropped the ball on this one. Just wow.

From their rules:

There are no cash refunds except at the discretion of BTP. We are willing to re-work a project or possibly give a store credit. But money in is a one-way trip. Rule of Acquisition #1.

Which could explain some of their bizarre behavior, and is a very good reason to never buy anything from them.

No, Insult to those that use painting commisions, but this is why I stay clear of them and paint myself. I do not want to risk having my stuff taking.
I will say this, I love BTP dzc videos though

 Peregrine wrote:
From their rules:

There are no cash refunds except at the discretion of BTP. We are willing to re-work a project or possibly give a store credit. But money in is a one-way trip. Rule of Acquisition #1.

Which could explain some of their bizarre behavior, and is a very good reason to never buy anything from them.

And in court that will be a millstone around their necks - making any charges of fraud much, much easier to press.

The Auld Grump - if they start drowning, then you should be willing to throw them an anchor.

Take the partial refund and call it done. It's probably the best offer you'll get.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
From their rules:

There are no cash refunds except at the discretion of BTP. We are willing to re-work a project or possibly give a store credit. But money in is a one-way trip. Rule of Acquisition #1.

Which could explain some of their bizarre behavior, and is a very good reason to never buy anything from them.

And in court that will be a millstone around their necks - making any charges of fraud much, much easier to press.

The Auld Grump - if they start drowning, then you should be willing to throw them an anchor.

Wise words.

 Red Corsair wrote:
@tenebre
Ask him for a full refund on service in exchange for the army.

-You will eat the cost of that army, but you will get the 8-9 grand back in service it sounds like you spent. Use it to rebuy your models and find a new service or paint it yourself.

-They have an army that is according to them a high standard that they "should" be able to sell at a profit. They still win.

In the end you will lose out, but I am sure there is no way of you walking away from this without a loss. Even small claims court will cost you more time and money.

Offer it to him and see what he says.

It puts his money where his mouth is. According to him and his review it is a stellar army so why wouldn't he do it?

This. Might be the best chance of getting the largest refund, other than what pitiful refund he offers

If you paid with credit card, go the visa chargeback.

If not, small claims court.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
scumbags like this bank on people not wanting to be bothered to take it further. He'd have done nothing if you hadn't posted and put it on YouTube

 heartserenade wrote:
But on his end, how much would plane tickets, board and lodging, food, and labor pay of a painter would be for 3 weeks? Would that exceed how much he's willing to refund you?

A crack head on a bicycle can be anywhere in the US and painting in under 24 hours for about $20.

Hide your kids, hide your wife.

 Breotan wrote:
Take the partial refund and call it done. It's probably the best offer you'll get.

its too small. Court is the better option. I am waiting to hear back on this painter flying in idea. i requested a 60% refund based on a quote from another studio to repair his work. I would be happy with that. But I cant accept a 20% refund. My stress alone is worth more than that.

Personally, I'd be extremely leery of their proposal to fly in a painter. That's likely a trap as mentioned by a previous poster; allowing them to say that you were the unreasonable one when their work still got flubbed.

And with their current lack of professionalism so far, do you really think that it would be possible for them to implement that solution (given its logistical complexity) without problems?

I highly doubt it'll go well. Insisting on a refund is the way to go, at least it's simple.

Yeah I'd try and steer clear of the whole idea of them flying out a painter to you. That just sounds like a giant hornets nest in every way

I'd stick to getting them to refund you, or as an earlier poster suggested, if they think their paint job is fine, get them to refund you the money and you give them back the models and they call sell them to someone else, allowing you to buy a new set of models and get someone else to do the work for you.

Hey guys I myself have had a very bad experience with BTP. While I only got a hive tyrant painted, I paid $250 or so to have it painted and converted. The conversion budget was $120. For this budget all they did was bend the tail back and drill a hole in the model. I had originally sent them reference photos of a hive tyrant swooping in to get his prey, the wings were converted, the legs and the tail as well. In this case, all they did was the tail, and one leg the cut and fixed quite horribly. They had actually originally just sent me a pic of the model with the hole drilled for basing and the tail was just stock asking if it was ok to move to painting. I called them up and asked was $120 really worth them drilling one hole?Now painting wise I only paid for lvl 5 and it was ok, it is just the conversion that really got me. When I brought this up to Shawn he was not helpful at all, he kept saying it up to you what you want, I asked for a partial refund and he said if that is what you want, in the end I just counted my loss. Please see the attached video for reference. Let me know if you have any other questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qo2ZhyZl3k

that sucks, twinner...
i get a lot of flack for my prices being high, and these guys are straight up taking the piss...
i know i probably would have quoted $350 for a Flyrant like you described, but you would have gotten exactly what you wanted...
it bums me out when people give me a hassle about my prices, but i don't think anyone can fault my conversions and paintjobs...
at least now i have a good frame of reference to use when people talk smack...

@tenebre: sorry you are going through such a hassle...
stories like this make me so glad i turned down their job offer ten years ago...
it's been a good ten years of freelance work instead...

i've never been impressed by anything BTP has done, and even years ago i was hearing horror stories about lots of parts of minis that don't show being left unpainted...
while i don't think $17 is a lot for a rank and file mini, you should at least get the quality you asked for, and have your desires met with the paint scheme...

Shawn has always struck me as a guy who is two steps away from being a cult leader...
creepy dude, even though he is friendly and enthusiastic in the videos, something just gave a wierd vibe about him from the beginning...

hopefully these stories will save people a lot of hassle in the future...
these guys just need to give it up, if they can't bring the quality up, and leave commission painting to the people who have a passion for bringing the client's vision to life....
that's the whole point of the job, as far as i'm concerned...

cheers
jah

That... is not 'converted'. The tail is mildly tweaked. And the painting is unacceptable for $130. At first glance there's unpainted bits (the stranglethorn cannon in particular) and the terminator looks straight out of the box.

Ugh. Sorry to hear your tale of woe, twinner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

twinner wrote:
Hey guys I myself have had a very bad experience with BTP. While I only got a hive tyrant painted, I paid $250 or so to have it painted and converted. The conversion budget was $120. For this budget all they did was bend the tail back and drill a hole in the model. I had originally sent them reference photos of a hive tyrant swooping in to get his prey, the wings were converted, the legs and the tail as well. In this case, all they did was the tail, and one leg the cut and fixed quite horribly. They had actually originally just sent me a pic of the model with the hole drilled for basing and the tail was just stock asking if it was ok to move to painting. I called them up and asked was $120 really worth them drilling one hole?Now painting wise I only paid for lvl 5 and it was ok, it is just the conversion that really got me. When I brought this up to Shawn he was not helpful at all, he kept saying it up to you what you want, I asked for a partial refund and he said if that is what you want, in the end I just counted my loss. Please see the attached video for reference. Let me know if you have any other questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qo2ZhyZl3k

twinner wrote:
Hey guys I myself have had a very bad experience with BTP. While I only got a hive tyrant painted, I paid $250 or so to have it painted and converted. The conversion budget was $120. For this budget all they did was bend the tail back and drill a hole in the model. I had originally sent them reference photos of a hive tyrant swooping in to get his prey, the wings were converted, the legs and the tail as well. In this case, all they did was the tail, and one leg the cut and fixed quite horribly. They had actually originally just sent me a pic of the model with the hole drilled for basing and the tail was just stock asking if it was ok to move to painting. I called them up and asked was $120 really worth them drilling one hole?Now painting wise I only paid for lvl 5 and it was ok, it is just the conversion that really got me. When I brought this up to Shawn he was not helpful at all, he kept saying it up to you what you want, I asked for a partial refund and he said if that is what you want, in the end I just counted my loss. Please see the attached video for reference. Let me know if you have any other questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qo2ZhyZl3k

Looks like the same drybrush over black primer action. Is that what happened or was there any base coat used on the model?