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winterdyne wrote:
Just watched through your vid Tenebre.

Terrible treatment you're getting; I massively disapprove - it casts the commission industry as a whole in a very negative light.

I'll repeat my earlier statement - you have several months, full time work, to bring that up to a decent standard. Only accept a faster estimate from someone provably fast (to which I'd say Brandon at GMM - he is sorcerously quick).

I'll also make an offer; I will paint, for free (shipping not included), that character model you had issues with, to 'high end tabletop' standard, so you know what you can get in other places from decent artists. Drop me a PM if you'd like this and we can discuss details.

Edit: Yes, this will lead to a perhaps inconsistent army. What you have now is gak anyway.

This is very kind. I truly appreciate the support. I will let you know. Right now I am playing 40k to avoid being soured on everything.

tenebre wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
Just watched through your vid Tenebre.

Terrible treatment you're getting; I massively disapprove - it casts the commission industry as a whole in a very negative light.

I'll repeat my earlier statement - you have several months, full time work, to bring that up to a decent standard. Only accept a faster estimate from someone provably fast (to which I'd say Brandon at GMM - he is sorcerously quick).

I'll also make an offer; I will paint, for free (shipping not included), that character model you had issues with, to 'high end tabletop' standard, so you know what you can get in other places from decent artists. Drop me a PM if you'd like this and we can discuss details.

Edit: Yes, this will lead to a perhaps inconsistent army. What you have now is gak anyway.

This is very kind. I truly appreciate the support. I will let you know. Right now I am playing 40k to avoid being soured on everything.

Right on. Any batreps as of yet to speak of?

Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.

xxvaderxx wrote:
Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.

I understand where you're coming from, but at this point it just seems like tenebre wants to cut his losses and get the largest refund possible to try a different company. If they'd just sent him the models and they sucked and so he was refusing to send them back to have them fixed, yeah ok, but while the project was still with BTP he was requesting pictures, communication and amendments that never happened.

Of course now that tenebre has put up his review which has almost 6000 views... he can probably rely a bit more on them to actually communicate and fix the problems instead of just giving the "we'll do that tomorrow/this week/later" and it never happening.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.

I understand where you're coming from, but at this point it just seems like tenebre wants to cut his losses and get the largest refund possible to try a different company. If they'd just sent him the models and they sucked and so he was refusing to send them back to have them fixed, yeah ok, but while the project was still with BTP he was requesting pictures, communication and amendments that never happened.

Look nobody is denying that, but reality is, no company in any field has any incentive to give you money for you to go spend it in a competitor after you very publicly criticized their service for millions to see. That how ever does not mean a company cant own up to it and do right by you.

It is not so much he does not have the right, he certainly does, but what does he exactly expects to get out of this. If what he wants is a refund for somebody else to do it, he is not going to get it, not from btp or anybody else in this situation for that matter, if all you really want it to post it here, then by all means. If how ever he wants to have a crack at receiving a better service, which btp has offered to pay the shipping and redo the army from scratch, then yes it does require for him play ball and time, paint and models do not simply materialize out of thin air.


He has the completed product in his hands, he has complained about it (rightfully so) and he has been contacted and offered the option of a full re do. Personally i think that along some small refund or an extra say monstrous model or something as an apologetically gesture is an adequate answer from BTP. The ball is in his court now.

Should he proceed with it and receive yet another sub par service, then most certainly another video would be due with the according criticism. That judgment how ever, should wait until such event.

The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.

xxvaderxx wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.

I understand where you're coming from, but at this point it just seems like tenebre wants to cut his losses and get the largest refund possible to try a different company. If they'd just sent him the models and they sucked and so he was refusing to send them back to have them fixed, yeah ok, but while the project was still with BTP he was requesting pictures, communication and amendments that never happened.

Look nobody is denying that, but reality is, no company in any field has any incentive to give you money for you to go spend it in a competitor after you very publicly criticized their service for millions to see. That how ever does not mean a company cant own up to it and do right by you.

It is not so much he does not have the right, he certainly does, but what does he exactly expects to get out of this. If what he wants is a refund for somebody else to do it, he is not going to get it, not from btp or anybody else in this situation for that matter, if all you really want it to post it here, then by all means. If how ever he wants to have a crack at receiving a better service, which btp has offered to pay the shipping and redo the army from scratch, then yes it does require for him play ball and time, paint and models do not simply materialize out of thin air.


He has the completed product in his hands, he has complained about it (rightfully so) and he has been contacted and offered the option of a full re do. Personally i think that along some small refund or an extra say monstrous model or something as an apologetically gesture is an adequate answer from BTP. The ball is in his court now.

Should he proceed with it and receive yet another sub par service, then most certainly another video would be due with the according criticism. That judgment how ever, should wait until such event.

Seriously? How can you even think this is an option? It's already been shown they have a terrible turn around time, piss poor communication, inability to follow through on their promises (he asked em to fix several things and they never did), and unwillingness to paint at the level expected. He never asked for the glow effects or the lava base, something they did against his will.

I don't think its likely that they'd steal his minis so much as this would only drag out the process and upon return, if hes still unsatisfied, they'd just say "Well, we paid for them to be shipped to us, completely stripped and repainted, and he's still not happy!"

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 jreilly89 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.

I understand where you're coming from, but at this point it just seems like tenebre wants to cut his losses and get the largest refund possible to try a different company. If they'd just sent him the models and they sucked and so he was refusing to send them back to have them fixed, yeah ok, but while the project was still with BTP he was requesting pictures, communication and amendments that never happened.

Look nobody is denying that, but reality is, no company in any field has any incentive to give you money for you to go spend it in a competitor after you very publicly criticized their service for millions to see. That how ever does not mean a company cant own up to it and do right by you.

It is not so much he does not have the right, he certainly does, but what does he exactly expects to get out of this. If what he wants is a refund for somebody else to do it, he is not going to get it, not from btp or anybody else in this situation for that matter, if all you really want it to post it here, then by all means. If how ever he wants to have a crack at receiving a better service, which btp has offered to pay the shipping and redo the army from scratch, then yes it does require for him play ball and time, paint and models do not simply materialize out of thin air.


He has the completed product in his hands, he has complained about it (rightfully so) and he has been contacted and offered the option of a full re do. Personally i think that along some small refund or an extra say monstrous model or something as an apologetically gesture is an adequate answer from BTP. The ball is in his court now.

Should he proceed with it and receive yet another sub par service, then most certainly another video would be due with the according criticism. That judgment how ever, should wait until such event.

Seriously? How can you even think this is an option? It's already been shown they have a terrible turn around time, piss poor communication, inability to follow through on their promises (he asked em to fix several things and they never did), and unwillingness to paint at the level expected. He never asked for the glow effects or the lava base, something they did against his will.

I don't think its likely that they'd steal his minis so much as this would only drag out the process and upon return, if hes still unsatisfied, they'd just say "Well, we paid for them to be shipped to us, completely stripped and repainted, and he's still not happy!"

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Yes we have already established he received a bad service, that is not the point, the point is what is he willing to do if anything to have the situation rectified, as he said, it is no like a they have not given him reasonable options, under your logic you better directly not contact or complain about any product with any company because what is the point?. His second video is about follow up and options, he got them, now what is he going to do about it?


At this point in time this whole affair to me reads like this(with out the vitriol on either side)
+Customer A requested an expensive service with company B.
+Customer A received a sub par experience from company B.
+Customer A complained about the sub par experience from company B.
+Company B offered appropriate alternatives to amend Customer A experience.
+Customer A has opted to decline Company B offer and terminate their relationship.


That is what has happened so far, and any further judgement should be reserved for and if further developments happen.

 Swastakowey wrote:
The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.

On his second video, he explains BTP offered to re do the project from scratch, that essentially entail doing everything again assuming with the corrections and better communication, not a copy paste of the previous failed job.

They were horrible to communicate with and in no way met the expectations they established the first time, when they were paid. Now he's supposed to trust a clearly embittered company owner with his $1000s of minis to fix them in a timely manner and, from BTPs perspective, for free?
I don't think I'd describe considering that to be an undesirable option to be "childish".

No he said they offered to fix the things marked QC that the BTP guy thought needed fixing. They wont be redoing the entire project as far as I heard on there. Only that they would fix the Quality control errors.

I could be wrong but thats what I got from BTPs list of amendments. Unless the painter that gets sent over there is redoing the whole thing, but we all know thats not happening.

Honestly, an established company expecting to get a 'do-over' on intentionally sub par work is childish.

 plastictrees wrote:
Honestly, an established company expecting to get a 'do-over' on intentionally sub par work is childish.

No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.

 Swastakowey wrote:
No he said they offered to fix the things marked QC that the BTP guy thought needed fixing. They wont be redoing the entire project as far as I heard on there. Only that they would fix the Quality control errors.

I could be wrong but thats what I got from BTPs list of amendments. Unless the painter that gets sent over there is redoing the whole thing, but we all know thats not happening.

They did offer it, dont remember the minute exactly is on the second video when he talks about the 4 options given to him.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
Honestly, an established company expecting to get a 'do-over' on intentionally sub par work is childish.

No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.

 Swastakowey wrote:
No he said they offered to fix the things marked QC that the BTP guy thought needed fixing. They wont be redoing the entire project as far as I heard on there. Only that they would fix the Quality control errors.

I could be wrong but thats what I got from BTPs list of amendments. Unless the painter that gets sent over there is redoing the whole thing, but we all know thats not happening.

They did offer it, dont remember the minute exactly is on the second video when he talks about the 4 options given to him.

This is an unusual business, as most of their reputation lies on visuals and word of mouth. They are a service company, they produce no products of their own, and when you deliver subpar service on thousands of dollars of miniatures, then yeah, you're going to catch some gak. Also, compannies risk getting sued all the time, that's why they have lawyers. Trust me, this is not what I would call an established company, they are shady in terms of communication and have been getting bad reviews for years, but instead of fixing them, trying to get them removed.

I've done tons of work in the customer service and seriously, this is NOT the way to handle it. Had they been decent on their communication, him resending the minis to get redone would be absolutely acceptable. Given their lack of communication, though, he is correct to be wary. I think even a partial refund is their best be of remedying the situation.

Seriously, Shawn, is this you?

xxvaderxx wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
Honestly, an established company expecting to get a 'do-over' on intentionally sub par work is childish.

No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.

 Swastakowey wrote:
No he said they offered to fix the things marked QC that the BTP guy thought needed fixing. They wont be redoing the entire project as far as I heard on there. Only that they would fix the Quality control errors.

I could be wrong but thats what I got from BTPs list of amendments. Unless the painter that gets sent over there is redoing the whole thing, but we all know thats not happening.

They did offer it, dont remember the minute exactly is on the second video when he talks about the 4 options given to him.

What's clear is that you enjoy being contentious for it's own sake. In my industry if you did an equivalent job to the on BTP did here you would refund your clients money and desperately hope they still didn't sue you.
Please bear in mind that this isn't a case of, 'not quite meeting expectations', there was clearly no miscommunication between the client and BTP, instructions were simply ignored. If we had framers that took three times as long as stated to finish their work, ignored code and drawings and decided to use wood they found somewhere they would NOT be given an opportunity to fix their work on our dime.
This isn't a mistake, this is shoddy work that BTP chose to deliver and are now being called on. There's no benefit of the doubt here.

Commissioning is so hard- I've had varied experiences with it. For a long time, I decided to only paint things myself, but recently commissioned a LOCAL painter to do some Infinity for me, and was very pleased (enough that I'm having him do a second round now).

However, I think staying local is the best bet, because worst case you can just easily get the models back (or, really worst case, recover them through small claims court).

I finally got to watch the video in the OP, and the paint jobs actually look OK- but the price is the issue, if he paid something like $7-8K for the work (he hasn't posted what he paid, just based on hints from earlier in the thread).

I've also found that disasters are more common in huge army commissions like this- unless you're using GMM Studios, it overwhelms most commission painters. They take on the job, but are unable to follow through due to the time required.

Anyway, just some thoughts since I've been lurking this thread for a bit.

 jreilly89 wrote:

This is an unusual business, as most of their reputation lies on visuals and word of mouth. They are a service company, they produce no products of their own, and when you deliver subpar service on thousands of dollars of miniatures, then yeah, you're going to catch some gak. Also, compannies risk getting sued all the time, that's why they have lawyers. Trust me, this is not what I would call an established company, they are shady in terms of communication and have been getting bad reviews for years, but instead of fixing them, trying to get them removed.

I've done tons of work in the customer service and seriously, this is NOT the way to handle it. Had they been decent on their communication, him resending the minis to get redone would be absolutely acceptable. Given their lack of communication, though, he is correct to be wary. I think even a partial refund is their best be of remedying the situation.

Seriously, Shawn, is this you?

Really? partial refund, what is exactly their incentive to do a partial refund at this point?. Im assuming we or he wants the best possible outcome, thats why i said a refund is a non starter.

As i previously mentioned, i fully agree Shawn should not have written the answers him self, some one more detached should have done so but in my opinion this is far from an unsolvable situation. Fault lies in principle with BTP but the customer does need to be reasonable as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 plastictrees wrote:
What's clear is that you enjoy being contentious for it's own sake. In my industry if you did an equivalent job to the on BTP did here you would refund your clients money and desperately hope they still didn't sue you.
Please bear in mind that this isn't a case of, 'not quite meeting expectations', there was clearly no miscommunication between the client and BTP, instructions were simply ignored. If we had framers that took three times as long as stated to finish their work, ignored code and drawings and decided to use wood they found somewhere they would NOT be given an opportunity to fix their work on our dime.
This isn't a mistake, this is shoddy work that BTP chose to deliver and are now being called on. There's no benefit of the doubt here.

As you acknowledged this is not your industry, and nobody is asking for the benefit of the doubt, btp fethed up, that is already established. It is also established they have offered to re do the job and so far he has declined the offer. It could very well be that btp turn up another sub par product, but that should be on their heads when and if that happens. If all you would want to do about it is to pout in you bedroom, then so be it, but the second video is about getting the situation resolved.

Please keep an eye on using swear words. Some times the filter does not catch it. Everyone is responsible for what they post including what they quote. Thanks

xxvaderxx wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

This is an unusual business, as most of their reputation lies on visuals and word of mouth. They are a service company, they produce no products of their own, and when you deliver subpar service on thousands of dollars of miniatures, then yeah, you're going to catch some gak. Also, compannies risk getting sued all the time, that's why they have lawyers. Trust me, this is not what I would call an established company, they are shady in terms of communication and have been getting bad reviews for years, but instead of fixing them, trying to get them removed.

I've done tons of work in the customer service and seriously, this is NOT the way to handle it. Had they been decent on their communication, him resending the minis to get redone would be absolutely acceptable. Given their lack of communication, though, he is correct to be wary. I think even a partial refund is their best be of remedying the situation.

Seriously, Shawn, is this you?

Really? partial refund, what is exactly their incentive to do a partial refund at this point?. Im assuming we or he wants the best possible outcome, thats why i said a refund is a non starter.

As i previously mentioned, i fully agree Shawn should not have written the answers him self, some one more detached should have done so but in my opinion this is far from an unsolvable situation. Fault lies in principle with BTP but the customer does need to be reasonable as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 plastictrees wrote:
What's clear is that you enjoy being contentious for it's own sake. In my industry if you did an equivalent job to the on BTP did here you would refund your clients money and desperately hope they still didn't sue you.
Please bear in mind that this isn't a case of, 'not quite meeting expectations', there was clearly no miscommunication between the client and BTP, instructions were simply ignored. If we had framers that took three times as long as stated to finish their work, ignored code and drawings and decided to use wood they found somewhere they would NOT be given an opportunity to fix their work on our dime.
This isn't a mistake, this is shoddy work that BTP chose to deliver and are now being called on. There's no benefit of the doubt here.

As you acknowledged this is not your industry, and nobody is asking for the benefit of the doubt, btp fethed up, that is already established. It is also established they have offered to re do the job and so far he has declined the offer. It could very well be that btp turn up another sub par product, but that should be on their heads when and if that happens. If all you would want to do about it is to pout in you bedroom, then so be it, but the second video is about getting the situation resolved.

This is your industry then is it? Are you a professional painter?
You ARE asking for BTP to be given the benefit if the doubt. I don't define screwing up as purposefully doing sub par work and ignoring client instructions. So now you expect him to send his army off to them _again_ otherwise he's being difficult?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How many opportunities would they get to turn in acceptable work? How many times would you send your miniatures to a service provider that has shown no integrity before you're the idiot.

xxvaderxx wrote:
No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.

I feel like you're missing the gigantic point where on several occasions he requested WIP pics, where he had specific requests that weren't met and until he made a video review there was very poor communication.

If a mechanic fixes my car and something is wrong, yeah, I'll take it back and get them to fix it. If they repeatedly ignore my requests, do things without telling me and in general have a poor level of service, hells yes I will want a refund and take it somewhere else.

+Customer A requested an expensive service with company B.
+Customer A requested communication on how the service would be completed.
+Company B did not comply.
+Customer A requested work in progress pictures on several occasions.
+Company B did not comply.
+Customer A requested some work to be repaired.
+Company B did fix some things and not others.
+Customer A attempted to communicate about how the project was proceeding.
+Company B did not satisfactorily comply.
+Company B is taking a lot longer than initially agreed
+Customer requests updates on where it is
+Company tells customer "couple of days" but nothing happens... twice.
+Company finally tells customer that the army is only half done... even though it's 60% beyond the date it should have been completed by.
+Customer gets uphappy so company puts a rush on it... says it will take 2 days but it actually takes a week and another 3 days for pictures.
+Customer complains and requested some work to be repaired
+Company did fix some things and not others, some things taking an excruciatingly long time.
+Customer finally receives work and it is sub par.
+Customer complained about the sub par experience from company B.
+Company B offered appropriate alternatives to amend Customer A experience.
+Customer A has opted to decline Company B offer and terminate their relationship. because it is already way past the allotted time and has received poor customer service

Fixed that for you.

I do feel like you're ignoring the whole "lots of stuff happened before finally getting army in hand and complaining that it is subpar".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Really? partial refund, what is exactly their incentive to do a partial refund at this point?

I am not up with US consumer law... but my guess would be the incentive is to avoid going to court in a case you will most certainly lose because you didn't provide a satisfactory product, satisfactory customer support and not in a satisfactory timeframe.

How about this in the 2nd video during the QC part." Lighting on the Axe or w/e- opinion! " If I heard it right, it is Shawn that is saying he is of the opinion that the Light needs not be changed because he thinks it looks good. I work in hospitality and have been 90% of my working adult life. Customer is ALWAYS right reguardless of what you the Employee think, even when in fact Customer is wrong(Not saying OP is at all in this example). When told by the Employee/Owner/Manager/Whomever that they dont think this or that needs to be fixed because it looks good to them is wrong way of going about what the client wants.

If Someone were to come to me saying the Medrare steak that they ordered med rare isnt, No questions asked, I take the steak back, ask for it to be redone even if that steak was originally sent out at exactly Med Rare. BTP said they fired a staff member due to this project early on, and OP said he(stating this was Renn- who is missing from most videos again) was the best painter on the project. Whether or not it had to do with this and having the project go missing(could just be a lie that they decided to take a break) or because real life got in the way is BS when you see how the place is run. I said in an earlier post that it just isn't one artist, its a group of them and how in the hell do/can those 4 people paint the exact same? Cut corners. Why does it take for so long for something to go through painting(regardless of scale and time)? Cut corners and work on other projects at the same time, include other commissions and that of the personal sort. There is a very open door feel to most of the Studio updates that we see, and know people are playing video games when you'd think they'd be working or doing personal armies when it should be focused on clients. Maybe it has to do with the rumor they are behind on $$$. Maybe the Staff is "over worked'- LOL. To me when its of the opinion they look good to the employee and the client doesn't agree, you bite your tongue and you fix it.

It feels more and more like this was one of those projects they just saw the $$$ and spent it before work even started. you see it all the time with Roofing Contractors and such that come in to repair off down or full payment up front and skip town. Now we all know that they dont necessarily do it, but sure feels that way knowing they put out a product a lot of people are happy with

Guys it's okay. xxvaderxx is not so secretly Shawn. Give BTP the benefit of the doubt

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.

I feel like you're missing the gigantic point where on several occasions he requested WIP pics, where he had specific requests that weren't met and until he made a video review there was very poor communication.

If a mechanic fixes my car and something is wrong, yeah, I'll take it back and get them to fix it. If they repeatedly ignore my requests, do things without telling me and in general have a poor level of service, hells yes I will want a refund and take it somewhere else.

+Customer A requested an expensive service with company B.
+Customer A requested communication on how the service would be completed.
+Company B did not comply.
+Customer A requested work in progress pictures on several occasions.
+Company B did not comply.
+Customer A requested some work to be repaired.
+Company B did fix some things and not others.
+Customer A attempted to communicate about how the project was proceeding.
+Company B did not satisfactorily comply.
+Company B is taking a lot longer than initially agreed
+Customer requests updates on where it is
+Company tells customer "couple of days" but nothing happens... twice.
+Company finally tells customer that the army is only half done... even though it's 60% beyond the date it should have been completed by.
+Customer gets uphappy so company puts a rush on it... says it will take 2 days but it actually takes a week and another 3 days for pictures.
+Customer complains and requested some work to be repaired
+Company did fix some things and not others, some things taking an excruciatingly long time.
+Customer finally receives work and it is sub par.
+Customer complained about the sub par experience from company B.
+Company B offered appropriate alternatives to amend Customer A experience.
+Customer A has opted to decline Company B offer and terminate their relationship. because it is already way past the allotted time and has received poor customer service

Fixed that for you.

I do feel like you're ignoring the whole "lots of stuff happened before finally getting army in hand and complaining that it is subpar".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Really? partial refund, what is exactly their incentive to do a partial refund at this point?

I am not up with US consumer law... but my guess would be the incentive is to avoid going to court in a case you will most certainly lose because you didn't provide a satisfactory product, satisfactory customer support and not in a satisfactory timeframe.

This, this this! I know people are suppose to turn the other cheek when wronged, but you are also taught not to be taken for a fool. The OP is in the right to do what he did. As stated the trust is broken and honestly nothing can be expected of BTP. It is unrealistic to expect anything from them when all they have done is stall during the project and almost all request to correct mistakes were ignored.

Also to clarify, if he went with the painter option on the QC options would be altered. As for the full repaint, that honestly seemed a bit vague on the fixes and with what they produce so far... hmmm.

Also I do agree with some from far away the army looks fine. BUT that isn't the point, it should look great close up and filled with at least some level of detail for what he paid. Also who leaves primer sticking out?? I just can't believe that.

Overall this just appears like neglect on so many levels from BTP and I do not feel like the OP should have to trust them when they have broken that trust.

BTP is definitely in the wrong here, the fair options are 1) full refund and apology, 2) on failed painted models, as some of the units were up to par, buy brand new models and paint them to the standard and send to the client.

About sending back the models and have them retouch them: the problem is not so much as a missing highlight, it's more like a mold line where you have to strip it and start over. The amount of money he paid, there should be enough to replace the models not up to par.

A solution for BTP painting techniques in the future: a watered down base coat would cover the black primer easily before painting.

A possible solution for the client to mask the black primer effect on the models: FW dry powders.

With a balls up of this magnitude there is going to be a hit on reputation.

This is not the clients problem.

The work should not have gone out the door, and the situation is not fixable by BTP; despite requests to put right they have failed to comply, repeatedly and demonstrably.

BTP's only option now is a significant refund, and even then that is not going to fix the 'this really shouldn't have left the studio' issue. It would however reassure customers that they should according to BTP processes get what they pay for. Note: not 'will', as you can bet something will go wrong sooner or later, but at least some acknowledgment of the issue should take place,

What BTP are doing now is further damaging their standing; the army is clearly substandard, and attempting to defend it just shows they don't want to accept responsibility for mismanaging the project.

Legally speaking, I don't know about the US, but in the uk this would be a case of goods or services not as described. If insufficient attempt to make good has been made (after several emails in before delivery this is the case) there is a breach of sales contract and the client can take the service provider for damages, not limited to; financial damages in putting right the work, legal costs, punitive damages for stress or inconvenience, loss of business revenue etc. It's a pain in the backside and generally needs to be done with the assistance off local trading standards groups.


Edit: Shawn's comment that the internet is like a funhouse mirror is true; even isolated, this case is damaging. Again, though, this is not the client's problem- it is a factor of working in a connected age. You need to get your stuff right before it goes out the door. Failure to do so leads to situations that are highly damaging and nearly impossible to fix.

It's a real shame and I feel terrible for you tenebre. Having watched your video I think you show remarkable restraint, especially considering that some minis, specifically the war machines, look to have been rushed out of the door. Heck, I and many others on here could probably have done a better job with those.
For the amount of money paid and the time invested both on your part and BTP's, I would have expected something a whole lot better. The other thing to note is that on BTP's YouTube video that details your army, the guy filming it seems genuinely enthused about it and seems to really love the miniatures themselves. If that's the case why does there seem to have been no love and care put into the painting itself?

I can only speak for myself, but when a miniature really enthuses me, I do a much better job on the paintwork.

I hope you can get something sorted out here. Good luck!

 jreilly89 wrote:

tenebre wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
Just watched through your vid Tenebre.

Terrible treatment you're getting; I massively disapprove - it casts the commission industry as a whole in a very negative light.

I'll repeat my earlier statement - you have several months, full time work, to bring that up to a decent standard. Only accept a faster estimate from someone provably fast (to which I'd say Brandon at GMM - he is sorcerously quick).

I'll also make an offer; I will paint, for free (shipping not included), that character model you had issues with, to 'high end tabletop' standard, so you know what you can get in other places from decent artists. Drop me a PM if you'd like this and we can discuss details.

Edit: Yes, this will lead to a perhaps inconsistent army. What you have now is gak anyway.

This is very kind. I truly appreciate the support. I will let you know. Right now I am playing 40k to avoid being soured on everything.

Right on. Any batreps as of yet to speak of?

I couldnt bring myself to play with my CDs. However I will post in the appropriate forum when the Batreps start going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mac wrote:


A possible solution for the client to mask the black primer effect on the models: FW dry powders.

I had not thought of that option! brilliant!

 Big Mac wrote:
A possible solution for the client to mask the black primer effect on the models: FW dry powders.

To be honest, given the availability and ease of use of airbrushes and washes, i can not fathom why they still opt to use drybrushing on a massive project such as this. Airbrush + washes creates better results than coats + drybrushing in something like 90% of the models out there, muscle checked, plated armor checked, fur checked. The only real situation where a model merits drybrush in my opinion is for small enclosed details, like say a fire/torch in an otherwise different colors army. It boggles my mind why BTP keeps using this kind of technique.

tenebre, seriously.

at the amount of money you invested and they way BTP failed to coomunicate with you or amend any mistakes for a presumably highest level painting level they offer, you should not be too lazy to get a lawyer.

The lawyer will cost you a couple hundred bucks, but they will eventually give in to your reasonable refund demands, unless they want to really duke it out at court, losing not only all the money you gave them, but also their reputation and additional layer costs..

OP, sorry to view/read your tale of woe. It has put me off commissioning as I can't afford the pros elsewhere discussed in this thread.

I will caution that small claims court will not be the cakewalk that others here suggest. Painting quality is subjective.

Good luck in any event, and I hope the misfortune does not put you off the hobby entirely.

People keep saying he should of gone for the full re-do. The problem is if you watch the video they were only going to repair what they felt needed repainted.

Shawn said himself he doesn't see anything wrong with the fact the chaos dwarf blocks are mostly visible primer. That is acceptable for a $14 per model paint job.


Shawn and blue table will just repaint what they feel like repainting. Not what the OP wanted them to paint.

BP has failed on many levels here. Your option as a paying customer doesn't matter as much as shawn's.