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DV might not be a bad set for the money, but you still need to drop a ton of cash just to play games beyond it, to say nothing of $100 just to expand the armies that come in the box. That means it's terribly POOR value for anything because it's A) Not even enough to play basic games, and B) Requires a significant cash investment to do more.

The other starter sets seem to contain a lot more value to where you need to buy only a little bit more to have a typical (tournament?) sized army.

About the only game that comes close to 40k's barebones style is Bolt Action (couple of squads per side, I think the newest starter has one vehicle for the Germans) but a full sized army for BA is also like $125, which would buy you maybe two squads or one big thing for 40k.

BRB wrote:
It's also the high costs of maintaining and expanding 40k that's making it more expensive. Whenever there is a change in editions and rules, you're almost forced to invest in a) a new rulebook and b) eventually a new codex for the current edition, while running into the danger of your units being dropped out completely and becoming obsolete. (Penal Legion and Sly Marbo for example). Other systems either let you play with old lists, they update them via free errata, have rules or stats and lists for free download or at least a cheap softcover version sold as a single copy.

The move from 5E to 6E had me buy a new 65€ rulebook and a 39€ Imp codex for 40k to be able to play, for example, while it was just a 8€ softcover for Flames of War when they moved from V2 to V3 (free for owners of the previous edition).

Then there are the costs of expanding. While DV and BR before certainly are good deals, it ramps up from there if you want to expand those choices, especially if you want new formations for your existing armies and you'll have to move into forgeworld's realm (e.g. Elysians, Tank Coy, Armoured Fist for Imps).

As far as the bits are concerned, they do include a ton of bits, but quite often not those that matter. You want a meltagun or plasma launcher for your imp troops for example? You have to start scavenging, as there are only one of each in the command sprue and none in the standard platoon.

The good thing about 40k is, though, that there is a huge secondary market. If you're somewhat crafty, you have a huge selection of crappy and cheap used models on ebay that can be made usable with a bit of effort.

just on a quick galnce at this post.. saying the model you ahd for marbo became obsolete is a little disingenuos, most people added a box to a guardsmans hand, and i bet that model is still used as a counts as for something else.

on another note i want to say that a 1500 pt 40k game, on a decent table whilst more expensive than a 100 pt xwing game, looks a damn sight more awesome (i hate those carboard cutout asteroids)

40K / Fantasy is a very expensive game if you buy from GameWorkshop stores and use only GamesWorkshop models/bitz.

Use stores such as Darksphere in the UK for 25% discount on the models and be patient on Ebay for good deals - you'll soon find the price drops considerably.

Case in point - I ended up with x50 Space Marines and x5 Drop pods (all BNIB) for £125. With other purchases and patience I reckon I spent a total of £270 est. on a 5000pts army.

The only pieces I paid full price for out of my four armies are x2 thousand sons upgrade packs, x3 deathwatch upgrade packs, a couple of named characters and a heldrake because I gave in to the GW staffs badgering on visit when ordering the Thousand Son parts.


Also, join a gaming club - you'll end up finding deals from other players for their stuff / ready market for your own bits

 Vaktathi wrote:
selling bits is very difficult to do well, especially not on an industrial level scale.

It's not like you can buy a kit and instantly find buyers for all the extra bits (especially when many bits/weapons/extras will *never* see a table because of crappy rules), and turn around and buy bits you need at the same price.

Yeah, with the dual kits you usually can't make anything much out of the extra parts and you can't sell them for much because there's a lot of people who bought the dual kits and want to get rid of the extras just like you, so the market tends to be flooded.

 TedNugent wrote:
DV's models are deliberately underwhelming, so I don't really think that's a fair comparison.

All of the models in DV are deliberately designed only to be used in either a DA or CSM army. Unlike in Black Reach, which contained generic marines that could be suited for any chapter or any Codex, DA marines have insignias and art that only make them suitable in DA armies. The Terminators and bikers are also bogged with RW/DW insignias, which makes them technically not suitable as vanilla terminators or white scars. The DA Codex itself is $50 and is widely considered one of the worst codexes.

The CSM codex is not a very great tier, and what is included in the DV box is not the best pick of the codex. Cultists, Chosen, a HELBRUTE (bottom-rung).

As a model kit, Dark Vengeance is a superb value, but let me ask this: how many of you even use one single model from the DV kit? By contrast, how many of you own a DV kit? How many of you have DV models sitting in your closet, not ever touching the table?

Hand up here, i use ahem 60 odd cultists. chosen on occasion, (hellbrute well i got mine from FW)

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
On a more general note, I do have to say I find the pricing laughable. OK, you might get cards and bits and bobs, but ultimately you're paying £10 for a single mini that is absolutely tiny, that comes already painted. Given the choice between 2 X-wings or one box of Space Wolves, I know whic is going to give me more to do in terms of modelling, gaming and painting enjoyment. If X-wing cost about £4-5 a figure, I might be tempted, but at the price it's at I see absolutely no value in it.

£10 is a lot? Since when? GW are selling a librarian for £18, fincast characters for £15, £11 and, the cheapest I could find in in the marine line was £8.20 for a model that's probably almost as old as I am.

It's a lot for a single, excetionally small, prepainted mini. GW sells minis for that, I'll grant you, but to continue the SM example, there's no way you ever need to pay that much for them. Almost any SM HQ can be build from the bits in the Sternguard, Vanguard or Command Squad box and a bit of imagination. Personally, I'll never pay more than about £10 for a figure, and the only time I've done that in years was to get the Finecast IG Commissar before it went OOP.

I remember the first time I saw an X-wing model in the flesh, and my thoughts at the time were:
'it's how small?' followed by 'they want how much for it?' with an afterthought of 'no way, Jose!' Looking at them, I just don't see the value in the product, I think any other £10 I spend on minis would bring more enjoyment, and I say that as a huge Star Wars fan.

Even compared to Infinity, one of the more expensive games out there, it's leagues better than X-wing in terms of cost-vs-product. I can get this guy for £6, so 60% of an X-wing:


A larger figure, more detailed, arguably a better material (not a fan of metal myself, but many are), provides 2-3 hours of painting time as well as gaming.

Again though, you're looking at models you get not models you need. An xwing fleet is 3-5 ships, so £30-50. A strikeforce is (in pounds, keep in mind in the rest of the world those conversions become absolutely hilarious) £140. That is a good saving off buying everything individually but still not a full army.

But if I don't see the value in a single ship, that doesn't get better the more I buy. If I'm at an X-wing table having spent £50 on 5 ships, and the guy next table along is playing with a converted Captain and two Tactical Squads, I'd be thinking I've wasted some money somewhere!

Assuming 2 hours to build and paint a Tactical Marine, a box of 10 for £25 works out at just over a pound an hour before they even hit a gaming table, and 20 hours of enjoyment. I don't know how long a game of X-wing takes to play, but how many would you have to use two new ships inbefore you matched that investment in terms of time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedleh wrote:
^^ I'll comment on Deadzone.

 Paradigm wrote:

Deadzone: 23 Minis, A great set of terrain (the real value in the box, I think), full rules/cards, durable counters and lots of them, dice.

Deadzone contains 120 points of Enforcers and 100 points of Plague, not including upgrades. You need 70 points for a full size game. You get more than 50% more models than you actually need (lots of variation) including terrain, while Dark Vengeance has, at best, 50% of what you need.

If you're looking at sheer model count then yes, Dark Vengeance wins versus Skirmish games. If you're looking at proportion of a full size force, or for how easy it is to expand into a full size force (including rules) then DV loses. Hard. That's not even taking into account the quality of the game.

I have nothing against Deadzone at all, I think it's a great set and a great game. I was simply illustrating the point that, for the price, if I played neither 40k nor Deadzone, I'd probably buy Dark Vengeance every time.

For what's typically played at games stores, 1800 pts for 40k or 35 pts (or sometimes 50) for WMN or 300 for Infinity, 40k comes out way more expensive.
Yes, you can play smaller games of 40k, but then you could play smaller games of WMH and Infinity as well.

And as far as value goes, the Operation Ice Storm set is levels above everything else.

 Wulfmar wrote:
40K / Fantasy is a very expensive game if you buy from GameWorkshop stores and use only GamesWorkshop models/bitz.

Use stores such as Darksphere in the UK for 25% discount on the models and be patient on Ebay for good deals - you'll soon find the price drops considerably.

Case in point - I ended up with x50 Space Marines and x5 Drop pods (all BNIB) for £125. With other purchases and patience I reckon I spent a total of £270 est. on a 5000pts army.

The only pieces I paid full price for out of my four armies are x2 thousand sons upgrade packs, x3 deathwatch upgrade packs, a couple of named characters and a heldrake because I gave in to the GW staffs badgering on visit when ordering the Thousand Son parts.


Also, join a gaming club - you'll end up finding deals from other players for their stuff / ready market for your own bits

Thing is you can say that about any game, you can find most if not all games for similar discounts. And GW are making more and more stuff direct only.

Many people on this thread threw a "full size game" point value of several games and I gotta ask...

Where exactly is the proper "full sized game" been declared?

Who says 40k "proper" size is 1850? the big turnies? they only do so because people asked for larger games to begin with, it was 1500 not long ago, and I'm sure it was even lower.
And points per model were higher back than, so the game was even smaller.

The game size of 40k is decided by the players, it CAN be 1850, it can be alot less. yes, when you go as low as 500 yo gonna need some variant rules to prevent RPC games, but the basis for them already exists.

Killtem, combat patrol, ring a bell?
Or when you want to go big, apocalypse comes into play.


The people who called that infinity is a small skrimish and 40k must be played at company level are you players, not the companies.
The systems support mass-scale or tiny games alike, some manage the differences better than other, but the rules do not change when the point cap does.



As for the higher entry costs of 40k, yes. books cost alot and it sucks, and on books spesifically I think a drop is in order.
But the models? they are priced right.
Even if you don't use all the bits (say a multi-kit?) you got tons left over to use for basing, conversions, aftermarker or simple customization of your squad.

The fact you can have 60 tactical marines in your army and have not two look alike is HUGE in terms of appearances, and in wargaming appearances is part of the party.
The fact you can use or avoid spesific bits in the kits while still keeping completely legal and form a slightly different look is also big.
Biggest of all is the fact the kits cross over, meaning a leftover bit from unit X can be used to customize unit Y that might sometimes even be from another army.

Infinity and friends? don't have that. the models are fixed, the appearances are fixed, and when you run a large number of unit X, you get a clone factory.

Sadly I don't get to enjoy that aspect with my tau much (I'm playing "clean and markless") but I played with it with my kroot (who I don't run as I find super-squishy units not to my tastes) and its just so much fun to fiddle with them, give them each his own uniqe looks, style and having them so well defined I can recall a few of them by name (yes, I named every member of the squad.) even though its been months from the last time I even looked at them.

Bits are awesome.

Who says? Most gamers. I don't know many people who would always want to play low points games unless it's an escalation league or somebody is new; the newbie is quickly expected to build up a decent sized force, and that gets very expensive even if you already have some stuff. My latest abandoned "Operation Restart 40k" involved some close to 1000 points of Tau I had from yet another aborted restart many years ago, and to get to the normal points value it'd still cost me a couple hundred bucks (although to be fair, part of that was because I wanted a Riptide and a FW Crisis Suit to use as a Commander, but even so just basic extra units were running very pricy). Instead, I shelved the idea and spent some of money buying some more things for my Khador army for Warmachine.

Besides the problem 40k has at virtually all points levels is that it's unbalanced, so low point games don't fix anything and add new issues (e.g. if someone brings 3x Riptides to a low point game, how do you deal with it)

If you're buying all your 40k stuff at 25% off then its overpriced. Simple fact. If it wasn't you wouldn't need it at 25% off.

In fact the simple fact that there is a standard among gaming stores and websites to offer a discount proves as much as well.

For me, it's the idea that GW prices just keep going up. While their rules just keep going down in quality.

oh, and their tactic of lowering the points to make you buy more and swapping out effectiveness of units between editions of codices. "Now that powerful unit you bought so much of isn't as good as that unit you thought you'd never buy!"

 BoomWolf wrote:
Many people on this thread threw a "full size game" point value of several games and I gotta ask...

Where exactly is the proper "full sized game" been declared?

Who says 40k "proper" size is 1850? the big turnies? they only do so because people asked for larger games to begin with, it was 1500 not long ago, and I'm sure it was even lower.
And points per model were higher back than, so the game was even smaller.
.

The "full size" game is whatever people play most often and if you were to play against a new opponent what standard size you'd expect. For Deadzone it's 70-100 points. For Warmachine it's 35-50 points. For Kings of War it's 1500-2000 points. For 40k it's 1500-2000.

Can you play smaller? Yep. You can, but good luck getting a pickup game at a smaller size. Even if you do count smaller games as a full size game then guess what - other games scale down too. If you're counting a 400 point game of 40k as a standard size game then the £30 X-wing starter set has two forces of that size. Show me two 400 point 40k forces including rules for £30.

cue anecdote from someone saying that they regularly play 400 points in 3... 2... 1...

Can someone explain to me how is DV a better buy compering to the infinity or Xwing starter sets ? Because those give you full armies. DV doesn't give a full army even if someone glued up both forces and played unbound, after buying the 2 obligatory codex for each force of cours.

Makumba wrote:
Can someone explain to me how is DV a better buy compering to the infinity or Xwing starter sets ? Because those give you full armies. DV doesn't give a full army even if someone glued up both forces and played unbound, after buying the 2 obligatory codex for each force of cours.

More figures for all those hobbyists that don't actually play

While I like the DV set, I think people are underselling the Infinity set a little bit. Those models, in addition to being *significantly* more detailed than the DV models, are metal. And while some people may prefer plastic over metal, what is not arguable is the fact that metal models cost more to manufacture. Now, you'd never know that with GW since most switches from metal to plastic for them have resulted in higher prices, but that is the true nature of the beast.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
40K / Fantasy is a very expensive game if you buy from GameWorkshop stores and use only GamesWorkshop models/bitz.

Use stores such as Darksphere in the UK for 25% discount on the models and be patient on Ebay for good deals - you'll soon find the price drops considerably.

Case in point - I ended up with x50 Space Marines and x5 Drop pods (all BNIB) for £125. With other purchases and patience I reckon I spent a total of £270 est. on a 5000pts army.

The only pieces I paid full price for out of my four armies are x2 thousand sons upgrade packs, x3 deathwatch upgrade packs, a couple of named characters and a heldrake because I gave in to the GW staffs badgering on visit when ordering the Thousand Son parts.


Also, join a gaming club - you'll end up finding deals from other players for their stuff / ready market for your own bits

Thing is you can say that about any game, you can find most if not all games for similar discounts. And GW are making more and more stuff direct only.

Indeed - but that's the point, any game can be made cheaper if you're smart about it. If you don't want to use the GW models that are direct only, then proxy them using suitable cheaper models (as long as they fit the style and rules). GW used to be all about building and proxying things before it turned into a cash-grab.

Makumba wrote:
Can someone explain to me how is DV a better buy compering to the infinity or Xwing starter sets ? Because those give you full armies. DV doesn't give a full army even if someone glued up both forces and played unbound, after buying the 2 obligatory codex for each force of cours.

X-wing gives you 1 ship for the Rebels and 2 for the Imperials. Games are played with 3-5 ships, so you have between 20 and 30% of an army.
Infinity gives you 160-ish points when the standard is 300, so about half an army.

DV doesn't give you a full army, but neither do the others, and I see it as a better buy simply because you get more minis, which means more painting time, which is largely what I buy stuff for these days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Accolade wrote:
While I like the DV set, I think people are underselling the Infinity set a little bit. Those models, in addition to being *significantly* more detailed than the DV models, are metal. And while some people may prefer plastic over metal, what is not arguable is the fact that metal models cost more to manufacture. Now, you'd never know that with GW since most switches from metal to plastic for them have resulted in higher prices, but that is the true nature of the beast.

To go back to what I said eariler, in terms of the quality, Icestorm wins hands down, the minis in there are some of the best I've ever had the pleasure to paint.

In terms of value, though, I still put DV ahead.

That ignores the cost of all those things, which is kind of the point of the thread.

For the cost of DV, I'm getting 3 X-wing starter sets.

That's not including the inevitable one codex for one of the side of DV should the player ever want to expand.

If I wanted to play WMH on the cheapside, I can just get a faction starter box for $50, comes with quick start rules and all info for the units. Done.
With 40k you're looking at more than that just for the rulebook.
(Assuming all is store bought. Anything can be found cheaper on line somewhere. Heck, its even cheaper if ya just steal it, but that doesn't make for a productive conversation. So let's assume as a standard, that everything is bought from a store, brick or online.)

 Accolade wrote:
While I like the DV set, I think people are underselling the Infinity set a little bit. Those models, in addition to being *significantly* more detailed than the DV models, are metal. And while some people may prefer plastic over metal, what is not arguable is the fact that metal models cost more to manufacture. Now, you'd never know that with GW since most switches from metal to plastic for them have resulted in higher prices, but that is the true nature of the beast.

To be fair, this is incorrect. plastic material costs may be cheaper but they are significantly more expensive to manufacture. Which is why most small companies produce metal/resin minis instead of plastic injection moulded minis. A significant amount of GWs price increases in the late 90s went towards their plastic production line that enabled them to move towards the mostly plastic line they have today.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
While I like the DV set, I think people are underselling the Infinity set a little bit. Those models, in addition to being *significantly* more detailed than the DV models, are metal. And while some people may prefer plastic over metal, what is not arguable is the fact that metal models cost more to manufacture. Now, you'd never know that with GW since most switches from metal to plastic for them have resulted in higher prices, but that is the true nature of the beast.

To be fair, this is incorrect. plastic material costs may be cheaper but they are significantly more expensive to manufacture. Which is why most small companies produce metal/resin minis instead of plastic injection moulded minis. A significant amount of GWs price increases in the late 90s went towards their plastic production line that enabled them to move towards the mostly plastic line they have today.

Really? Hmm, I did not know that! Well then, I recant the point about cost.

 MWHistorian wrote:
If I wanted to play WMH on the cheapside, I can just get a faction starter box for $50, comes with quick start rules and all info for the units. Done.
With 40k you're looking at more than that just for the rulebook.
(Assuming all is store bought. Anything can be found cheaper on line somewhere. Heck, its even cheaper if ya just steal it, but that doesn't make for a productive conversation. So let's assume as a standard, that everything is bought from a store, brick or online.)

Well, if you lay those restrictions on the conversation without looking at the actual physical value of the products (material costs etc) then on the face of it, the majority of popular model companies are ripping off the customer. Taking into account materials used just solidifies this. The pricing is in line with what the companies think they can get away with charging for the product. There was a survey done on this website recently about the ages of most Dakka members. The majority being aged 18-35, young people who have the money who are already invested in the hobby. Suddenly all those fans from the past have the financial backing to buy more into the hobby.

Personally I think GW's prices are horrendous, but then look at the prices others are charging for their products and you'll be left with a similar feeling. Try out the independent kick-starters if you want to see more reasonable prices.

 Wulfmar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If I wanted to play WMH on the cheapside, I can just get a faction starter box for $50, comes with quick start rules and all info for the units. Done.
With 40k you're looking at more than that just for the rulebook.
(Assuming all is store bought. Anything can be found cheaper on line somewhere. Heck, its even cheaper if ya just steal it, but that doesn't make for a productive conversation. So let's assume as a standard, that everything is bought from a store, brick or online.)

Well, if you lay those restrictions on the conversation without looking at the actual physical value of the products (material costs etc) then on the face of it, the majority of popular model companies are ripping off the customer. Taking into account materials used just solidifies this. The pricing is in line with what the companies think they can get away with charging for the product. There was a survey done on this website recently about the ages of most Dakka members. The majority being aged 18-35, young people who have the money who are already invested in the hobby. Suddenly all those fans from the past have the financial backing to buy more into the hobby.

Personally I think GW's prices are horrendous, but then look at the prices others are charging for their products and you'll be left with a similar feeling. Try out the independent kick-starters if you want to see more reasonable prices.

I think you may have meant to quote someone else?

Nay, it was based on your comment about assuming all products are store bought from the main producers at their stated prices rather than independent retailers

 Wulfmar wrote:
Nay, it was based on your comment about assuming all products are store bought from the main producers at their stated prices rather than independent retailers

I was trying to find a common ground to base arguments off of. If we bring buying armies from E-bay or scratch building your own, then the entire topic becomes meaningless.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Nay, it was based on your comment about assuming all products are store bought from the main producers at their stated prices rather than independent retailers

I was trying to find a common ground to base arguments off of. If we bring buying armies from E-bay or scratch building your own, then the entire topic becomes meaningless.

Such restriction wasn't introduced in the first place. You may find it meaningless but it affects the price in the long run.

GW may raise prices due to the second hand market?
GW may lower prices of new models to encourage people to move away from the second hand market?
New people may be more savvy and start with second hand and reduced price retailers?

Just because you think it's meaningless doesn't mean it is. It's just a more complex way of looking at the subject rather than reducing it to inaccurate basics.

 Accolade wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
While I like the DV set, I think people are underselling the Infinity set a little bit. Those models, in addition to being *significantly* more detailed than the DV models, are metal. And while some people may prefer plastic over metal, what is not arguable is the fact that metal models cost more to manufacture. Now, you'd never know that with GW since most switches from metal to plastic for them have resulted in higher prices, but that is the true nature of the beast.

To be fair, this is incorrect. plastic material costs may be cheaper but they are significantly more expensive to manufacture. Which is why most small companies produce metal/resin minis instead of plastic injection moulded minis. A significant amount of GWs price increases in the late 90s went towards their plastic production line that enabled them to move towards the mostly plastic line they have today.

Really? Hmm, I did not know that! Well then, I recant the point about cost.

It's true but not the full story. Molds for plastic minis are incredibly expensive, but the material itself is absolutely dirt cheap. Once you've paid off the mold, you may as well be printing money. The problem comes from paying off the mold - you need to sell significant numbers which is why GW in the past and current competitors use plastic only for core units that they'll sell in bulk. I don't really think the cost of the material should come into it. A company should use the right material for the right volume of units sold.

vv Agreed with MWHistorian.

 Wulfmar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Nay, it was based on your comment about assuming all products are store bought from the main producers at their stated prices rather than independent retailers

I was trying to find a common ground to base arguments off of. If we bring buying armies from E-bay or scratch building your own, then the entire topic becomes meaningless.

Such restriction wasn't introduced in the first place. You may find it meaningless but it affects the price in the long run.

GW may raise prices due to the second hand market?
GW may lower prices of new models to encourage people to move away from the second hand market?
New people may be more savvy and start with second hand and reduced price retailers?

Just because you think it's meaningless doesn't mean it is. It's just a more complex way of looking at the subject rather than reducing it to inaccurate basics.

We're comparing the prices of different games systems. The Op brought up the idea that other games are just as expensive as 40k if not more so. In order to compare, we need a common ground to compare them from. If someone says "40k is cheaper because I can scratch build," then that's a useless argument because you can scratch build anything from any system. Or "I bought my army second hand from E-bay and it was super cheap!" Well, the same can be said for other game systems as well, so once again, it doesn't progress the conversation.
In order to have a comparison, we need a common ground to compare them with. That stuff you brought up really doesn't have much at all to do with the OP's topic.

To the OP...
Most of the miniature games cost too much. lol
Have you looked at board games and seen their prices?

This is just a matter of how people justify their purchases to themselves and others.
"I spent $500 on a GW army but this other game "costs less" so I'll also buy an army for it too. Woo Hoo!, I saved 50 cents and now have 2 armies that I can play 2 different games with! Now, this third game saves me a quarter if I buy 4 extra starter sets....."

Many players like the "mythos" of the game they are playing. Many historical gamers just like history and different time periods so buy games that corrospond with them. Others just like the storyline and mythos of a game and play it because of that. Look at the x-wing game for example. Do you honestly think that the majority of x-wing players are not star wars fans?