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warboss wrote:Yeah, Gear Krieg was definitely ahead of its time. I remember when they tested out the rules at gen con pre release and used hunter and jaeger minis IIRC with scale soldier heads on top of the gear ones (so curvy russian gears were Jaegers with russian WW2 helmets and angular hunters with german helmets). Frozen, you could always pledge the princely sum of $1 and then increase it during the pledge manager phase if you change your mind or just prefer to procrastinate and delay the decision. I don't know how long they'll keep the pledge manager open but hopefully they'll take the mantic route and right up until they start production and/or ship.

If DP9 can make the initially mentioned plastic kits in a nice hard styrene with the funding they have, then the KS has already accomplished the only goal I'm interested in. At this point it's either going to all work out and I'll be able to get plastic gears at retail or there will be post-KS issues and it won't. Either way I don't see any advantage to putting money up a year in advance. I didn't pledge for any of the three Reaper KS for the same reason-- I don't want a ton of miniatures to bloat my unpainted pile and at this point the products are being developed and brought to retail. So congrats to DP9 for a successful KS, even half way through!

KS Update wrote:So the Acco was designed around the idea of having a Mount about the same size as a Gear with light weapons.

...

Currently the Kickstarter is at $86,000. With $7,000 more the plastic Caprice models will be unlocked.

I think the Acco looks great and pretty much all the mounts are also great models for use as drones in 15mm and 28mm sci-fi gaming. If they end up being plastic and more accessible, that would be awesome too.

BrandonKF wrote:Maybe others don't like the idea of a simplified ruleset, but the fact is that a simpler ruleset can make for a faster game once the rules are learned.

There's nothing wrong with a simplified set of rules. I also don't have any problem with the idea of a simplified set of rules for Heavy Gear except that it seems like a mandate to increase model count to drive up sales. I get that companies need to sell miniatures, but I'm just not that interested in such an approach.

I also think the Blitz line of development isn't a good way of making such a rules set. It's incremental tweaks to a more complicated base done over and over again over a decade. The best way to make a simple, fast and elegant game is to design that game rather than force another game to be that way with revisions.

I sent an email to some people I know who have gotten some of the recent Heavy Gear starter armies to let them know about the KS (I want the availability of plastic gears at retail to happen, after all). I think the starters they got came with a little pocket sized HG:B:L&L:1.1 (lol... revisions) and they all ended up being largely disappointed by the rules and don't play. I told them there's an open beta and they can go give feedback about what happened. Maybe one or two of the six who originally got into the game together but no longer play will do that. I bet there are quite a few people who bought starters as a result of Wayland promoting them but haven't stuck with the game at all. It's possible that my local experience isn't typical, but it seems like Blitz is the type of game where a small minority click with it and the rest sort of lose interest.

That said, I know I've said positive things about 2nd edition in this thread in previous posts. I'm not sure it's the type of game that would succeed now either. It's success in the 90s was probably the result of the importance of distribution and retail and developing a product appropriate to the shelf space rather than anything about the game. Like White Wolf and Palladium filling up shelves with RPG books. The 90s aren't coming back but there might be a place for Heavy Gear in a new way. Like how Onyx Path runs continual Kickstarters to print material for White Wolf's products. Maybe Heavy Gear can become like Mantic's approach with continual Kickstarters every year.

On the other hand though, Catalyst pretty clearly demonstrates that continuing to support a game that was popular in the 90s can really work. So maybe I'm wrong about that.

BrandonKF wrote:This Kickstarter is not just for old existing players, it is meant for retailers and newcomers too. New players will be able to get 4 full forces with the Core Starter Set at a price that is arguably good. Retailers can also purchase these sets ahead of time with an eye on expanding their groups.

Actually it kind of seems like it is meant for old existing players. Another incremental tweak to the Blitz line of development. This could be the rebirth of the game with a design that matches the goals of the design from the ground up. Instead, we have a KS that originally started as an idea to print a rulebook revision and based on the feedback of existing customers expanded to include plastic miniature production.

This KS is all about giving existing gamers what they want. And I think it might end up being at the expense of getting new customers as apparently even with Wayland picking up the game and general distribution of the game going up with HG:B:L&L:1.1 things didn't grow enough for the existing management of the company to go forward with it.

riker2800 wrote:I really like that new Acco design, quite respectful of the existing Caprician designs.

It really is excellent.

Morgan Vening wrote:I'm liking the base mechanics I've seen, but I'm more interested in the 10-15 models range, rather than the 40-50 range. I want the choices of individual figures to matter.

The individual figure choices matter to a degree but the base maneuver element appears to involve multiple models most of the time.

The goal is to have mostly all the tactical option you see in the Beta rules, but instead make those rules easier in their execution.

riker2800 wrote:
The goal is to have mostly all the tactical option you see in the Beta rules, but instead make those rules easier in their execution.

Admirable goal. The question is whether or not you can get there tweaking the existing rules set or if you have to start from scratch.

It's a tough place to be in, having to appeal to existing loyal Blitz players and try to expand the game to new players.

I don't envy the designer's jobs.

That is quite a job indeed.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I also don't have any problem with the idea of a simplified set of rules for Heavy Gear except that it seems like a mandate to increase model count to drive up sales.
..
It's incremental tweaks to a more complicated base done over and over again over a decade. The best way to make a simple, fast and elegant game is to design that game rather than force another game to be that way with revisions.

I notice these two points keep coming up again in conversations on most any venue since the Alpha material was released back around the end of January.

 frozenwastes wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:I'm liking the base mechanics I've seen, but I'm more interested in the 10-15 models range, rather than the 40-50 range. I want the choices of individual figures to matter.

The individual figure choices matter to a degree but the base maneuver element appears to involve multiple models most of the time.

Something I think folks might be hesitant about with this type of ruleset is that high model count, as other games at a similar scale just seem to devolve into a slug-fest because there isn't any room to maneuver on a typical gaming board when so many get fielded.

But I'm not sure that can be avoided by utilizing things like multiple scales in the same ruleset, or at least it didn't work as tried in the Silhouette Core Miniature Rules publication.
Although failures of that kind could also be from different scales having the effect on games of this type being oriented towards more traditional types of wargames and being less about anime-oriented vehicles.

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riker2800 wrote:
I really like that new Acco design, quite respectful of the existing Caprician designs.

You think so? Huh. My reaction was actually the opposite. The newest update, with all the mounts side by side, shows how big of a departure is that new mount's design from the rest.

Can't say I like it much.

Smilodon_UP wrote:I notice these two points keep coming up again in conversations on most any venue since the Alpha material was released back around the end of January.

That's very interesting. It was this Kickstarter thread that caused me to look at Heavy Gear again. Perhaps I'm just typical of people who used to play but don't and have been exposed to other rules sets on the market. I know getting back into Battletech and getting into Infinity and X-Wing has really increased my appreciation for a full game experience with a lower model count. I no longer have any interest for higher model count games like 40k and am even finding the model count of Warmachine/Hordes to become a bit tiresome beyond 25 points.

Something I think folks might be hesitant about with this type of ruleset is that high model count, as other games at a similar scale just seem to devolve into a slug-fest because there isn't any room to maneuver on a typical gaming board when so many get fielded.

But I'm not sure that can be avoided by utilizing things like multiple scales in the same ruleset, or at least it didn't work as tried in the Silhouette Core Miniature Rules publication.

I'm not that concerned about model count vs. table size and room to maneuver. I get that can be an issue for many games, even of medium model count, but it's not really my issue when it comes to model count.

My main issue with games that have individually based miniatures acting as a unit is that I'm just tired of it. In what way? I'm tired of my miniatures being wound counters or being less than a full game piece in their own right. When I see how valuable a single mech miniature is to a BT player during a game or a single TIE is to an X-Wing game in terms of game depth and decision making, I wonder why I should bother with any game that groups individually based models into squads. Or any game that markets itself as being about playing faster or more streamlined or whatever. I don't want fast and streamlined rules that cause miniatures to matter less, I want them to matter more.

It's totally okay if I'm not the target market and this project just isn't for me though. I just wonder how typical I am these days. Do people actually care about games being fast and streamlined versions of previous rules? Or is that just trying to walk the tight rope between keeping existing customers and getting new ones? They can't make a new game from scratch without losing the small customer base they have so all they can do is put out another version of basically the same thing and hope they can market it to new people better than the last time with HG:B:L&Lv1.1?

I hope this KS continues to succeed and that there are no issues with fulfillment and then retailers and distributors all stock the new plastic HG miniatures. I really do. I will buy some for use with other rules, but I'm not interested in yet another revision of Blitz and I think at this point, I've fully explained why.

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The games I'm invested into right now are more on line with X-Wing and Infinity than they are with Warhammer 40.000, that's for certain. But I'm also into FoW, so...

I can certainly say that I'm quite more interested in the old HG 2nd edition game than I am with the Beta currently being developed, but I'm not sure if that has to do with game size or with the fact that the decisions taken for the game are decisions I don't really care for.

I don't think I particularly dislike "big army" games, all in all, as everything has its place, and I love me a big game of OGRE from time to time. But I do think that I dislike games that use big armies just for the sake of using big armies. I don't like the new WFB edition at all, for example, and I think that the Horde rules and the like have hampered the game as a whole.

What I realize I'm into right now is games with fully realized "campaign modes", like Deadzone or the old Necromunda. I would have played the gak out of HG: Arena if only the rules didn't suck so bad... :(

@frozenwastes

The target number for the current Blitz is 4-20 models. At its highest point level currently, 150, you might get 3 5-Gear squadrons of Jaguars (10 points each).

Or a mixture of low and high point models, as you see fit. But 40-50 models would probably be reserved for an all-infantry battalion, with lots of infantry bases. Which would make for a great early era fight between common Jagers and Hunters assaulting a defended position sometime prior to the War of the Alliance, but it might be a bit slow to play out.

I have a rendition of crossover between Infinity and Heavy Gear on my blog, but that is in need of folks playtesting and letting me know how things stack up. It is also aimed more at the high model count that I envisioned for Blitz prior to this Beta, although you can certainly make it work for lower point confrontations if you so desire. I just have to wait for the new N3 rules to be shown so I can double-check its compatibility with the current ruleset and stats I have.

As far as Heavy Gear Arena, there is a group of players who are already working on a fan update of the Arena ruleset on the DP9 forums. I don't know all of the problems that are there, Albertorius would know more about the issues than I would.

I will straight-up argue with you about the use of individual models in squads because straight-up the newer Orders mechanics included in the Beta allow squads to perform as a team to take down hard targets together, and there are plenty of instances where lone models have made a difference in a game by achieving the mission goal for their player. This isn't a game of wound counters unless you want it to be. The mission choices of Blitz are also expected to be extended into 5th edition, and do not make the game all about just shooting your opponent dead.

I don't understand what tactics means.

What, really, needs to go on, on the tabletop, beyond moving and shooting, to represent tactics? Does there absolutely have to be command points or EW or, well, let's call it what is is - sci-fi's answer to magic's roll in a traditional tabletop game - to make "tactical" decisions? Is moving to a better spot so you can kill that guy not a tactic?

I used to play Warhammer. It had moving, shooting, fighting, and magic. Does that mean it had tactics?

Tactic is using many different options to achieve the goal you want to attain. Which most of the time is killing the other guy.

 Firebreak wrote:
I used to play Warhammer. It had moving, shooting, fighting, and magic. Does that mean it had tactics?

In my experience... a bit, but much less so than other games, not necessarily more complicated ones, like for example OGRE, which is surprisingly deep for a game so simple.

One of the problems of WFB/40K is that you can pretty much win or lose a game during the army building.

BrandonKF wrote:

The target number for the current Blitz is 4-20 models. At its highest point level currently, 150, you might get 3 5-Gear squadrons of Jaguars (10 points each).

This puts it into the same sort of model count as Warmachine/Hordes. You can play small games with a warcaster and a few jacks or have 20+ models depending on game size and the things you choose.

Or a mixture of low and high point models, as you see fit. But 40-50 models would probably be reserved for an all-infantry battalion, with lots of infantry bases.

To get those kinds of numbers in Warmachine you'd also need to go very infantry heavy.

I will straight-up argue with you about the use of individual models in squads because straight-up the newer Orders mechanics included in the Beta allow squads to perform as a team to take down hard targets together

I do apologize if I misrepresented things. In the beta you do indeed choose a model, decide what it's going to do and then resolve what it does and then move on to another one and another one until the entire combat group has been activated. Then the opponent activates a combat group and goes through the actions the members of that group takes. I just don't think this needs to be combined with a fast and streamlined approach with a higher model count. The best games of 2nd edition we ever had were multiplayer convention/club games where we activated model by model rather than command group by command group.

As for Infinity it strikes me as odd every time I play it. I love that I spend an order and do something with a miniature and then there are reactions and I'm making important decisions on an action by action basis with one model. I do, however, detest cheerleaders. Models there just to give better models more actions. It really makes miniatures feel pointless. They at least should be watching lines of fire and making AROs. A basic trooper with a rifle can really do a lot in that game.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I do, however, detest cheerleaders. Models there just to give better models more actions. It really makes miniatures feel pointless. They at least should be watching lines of fire and making AROs. A basic trooper with a rifle can really do a lot in that game.

Heh, agree. Cheerlead as much as you want, basic trooper, but first get your ass into position and watch those lines of approach. I'm not paying points in my list for you to get comfy behind a wall

Here are some recent updates:











I just love the little Acco, it's going to look great on the table.

Don't forget to go pledge!
Cheers!
Dave

No apology necessary. I understand that you are worried this game will be dumbed-down because the rules are being made simpler in their effects. But just because the effects of the game are being simplified in their intent, that doesn't necessarily invalidate models in this new rendition. Yes, it is a tweak off the old 2nd Edition Tactical days, but I apologize, the 90s were the 90s.

We already know that the RPG will be revisited, but for now this new edition of Blitz should be worked on to such a degree that it will be fun for anyone who picks it up. If you want to cut out some parts of the rules, it shouldn't negatively impact the game. Likewise, the players should be in it for fun. And I like to think that this new Kickstarter is a great opportunity.

You have a new living rulebook that the players can use for free, just like Infinity, you have models that were previously made of metal going to plastic molds so they can be shipped for a lot less cost to the manufacturer, thus making the price more affordable for the player, and you have the opportunity to get brand new models on order before others can lay their hands on them in retail.

Sure, folks are saying, I will wait until they go to retail, but if you know this Kickstarter will be given priority by the company for the Backers, wouldn't you want your stuff as soon as possible?

I also understand that a LOT of people are weary of Kickstarters in general, especially after Robotech. But I want to point out that this Kickstarter is not aiming to fill you up with 50-60 models that get carved down to a whopping 24 bits for a basic trooper. The company is aiming for a reasonable 40ish miniatures, with the most pieces being 10-12 bits, unless production has to change.

I would like to see the molds myself, but the fact is that won't be coming on for another 2 or 3 months, depending on purchasing everything necessary to get it all set up. Then again, maybe it will take a little longer, or maybe I will get a surprise and they are able to do it in record time with the new manufacturer.

If you want to jump into the open Beta, there are a few different places still to get HG pewter miniatures for a fair price, and you wouldn't need that many to get the jump on things while you wait for the Kickstarter set to be sent.

Sorry to ask what has probably already been asked (maybe even by me!) and answered, but, what scale if this game in?

Thanks!

12mm, or n-scale.

Link showing size differences here: http://www.swirlpost.com/2014/10/how-big-are-heavy-gear-blitz-miniatures.html?m=1

BrandonKF wrote:
No apology necessary. I understand that you are worried this game will be dumbed-down because the rules are being made simpler in their effects. But just because the effects of the game are being simplified in their intent, that doesn't necessarily invalidate models in this new rendition. Yes, it is a tweak off the old 2nd Edition Tactical days, but I apologize, the 90s were the 90s.

This has always been a problem for HG. While technically faster and more streamlined than CBT (a selling point back in the mid 1990's), the same can be said of a glacier. Compared with games nowadays, Heavy Gear is on the complicated side due to a dichotomy that the company (until this KS and the alpha rules) barely pretended to address. Put simply, HG games take way too long for the model counts indicated in the rules that you supposedly should be playing. The only games in the last "north american championship" at gencon a few years ago that came close to a natural ending (3 turns) were the ones where the super elite force of Black Talons faced off against the same. For those not familiar with HG, it's the equivalent of Draigo and Grey Knight Paladins facing off against the same... the highest point cost gears you can find that give you the smallest model count possible without busting out tanks and striders. There are only two solutions to this... you either

a) Decrease the intended model count... which makes less money for the company. I'd suspect they're hesitant to do this on the eve of investing (your money) big into plastics production just to sell less models per player army than before. Corvus Belli and Infinity seem to be rocking this idea at the moment to good effect (as in 75% annual growth) by staying with metals and staying focused on a dedicated skirmish game.

or

b) Decrease the rules complexity. That is ostensibly what we're doing here. I have my reservations about how that goal is being met as it seems like more and more complexity is being added back in since the pre-alpha proof of concept stuff I played. I like EW and command stuff in HG... but they absolutely slow the game down and I personally think the pendulum has swung too far at the moment towards slowing the game down. I like my decisions determining the chances of success (like moving, cover, actions, etc) but it seems like we're getting back to where we started in that there are too many mods to keep track of for a "quick" game and the defensive stuff has grown more (leading to more "nothing happened" rounds that typically happened in blitz and were pretty much hated).

That is the nitty gritty. You can't have a larger model count (and the 4-20 intended for this is larger than blitz in reality was) AND maintain the complexity without further increasing the play time which is already close to unbearable for alot of players. The 2-3 hour quasi-demos that I play (largely with the same player hence the "quasi" demo as he's partly familiar due to yearly games I harangue him into doing) involve only 6 models per side with my already simplified house rules. I'm afraid that the HG of the future is not what fans of the complexity of the old RPG/Tactical or even Blitz games are used to and enjoy.

I would like to see the molds myself, but the fact is that won't be coming on for another 2 or 3 months, depending on purchasing everything necessary to get it all set up. Then again, maybe it will take a little longer, or maybe I will get a surprise and they are able to do it in record time with the new manufacturer.

If you want to jump into the open Beta, there are a few different places still to get HG pewter miniatures for a fair price, and you wouldn't need that many to get the jump on things while you wait for the Kickstarter set to be sent.

Brandon, I think you're seriously underestimating that time frame. I've only pledged for one KS but I've followed relatively closely probably a dozen more and I don't think any of the larger ones that were more than just one or two sprues had anything even remotely close to a mould done in 2-3 months. I'd expect them to get the moulds done in 6-8 months assuming EVERYTHING goes as planned without any hiccups.

 warboss wrote:
I have my reservations about how that goal is being met as it seems like more and more complexity is being added back in since the pre-alpha proof of concept stuff I played.

This is where a lot of stuff is being working on at the moment, some rules are already been axed out. The number of rolling as also been reduced drastically, mostly in the EW and Order section.

Small detail, but it's nice to see the faction badges get a little facelift. I still think the simpler versions should "remain in circulation", as it were, because they'll come across a bit better on a transfer, but it's cool to see some makeovers. Looking forward to the Northern leagues getting the same treatment!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

riker2800 wrote:Tactic is using many different options to achieve the goal you want to attain. Which most of the time is killing the other guy.

So to use a hypothetical fantasy game where armybuilding and balance are not an issue, I have the option of shooting him, close combating him, magicing him, and moving around to do all the above from a better position. Those are my options for achieving my goal. Swap out magic for "EW/command" and you've got a sci-fi game. (Yeah, I know it's not the same as shooting a fireball, but it essentially fills the same roll of "other beneficial stuff happening outside of movement and combat".)

In what way(s) does HG want for tactics? It has moving and shooting and magic, so it appears to a non-player that it's all there to be used. What gets in the way of using tactics/being tactical in HG?

 Alpharius wrote:
Sorry to ask what has probably already been asked (maybe even by me!) and answered, but, what scale if this game in?

Thanks!

It's officially 1/144 scale.

I say that because if you're building terrain for those 25mm tall gears to move around in, you're likely to find yourself with a mix of 25mm buildings and scenery, 12mm buildings and scenery, and some "close enough" 15mm scenery.

So close to 6mm scale?

Frontline Gaming backed this KS at the Retailer level! Looking forward to seeing it grow.

We also have an interview with Robert Dubois of DP9 coming up on the next episode of Signals from the Frontline, which we will repost here!

Close to 15mm scale.

Also, Stretch Goal 10 was switched by request of multiple folks.

Caprice Mounts were just unlocked.

"This update is to announce that we have decided to push back our Quick Start Rulebook Color Book Upgrade to a later stretch goal. It is being moved from slot 10 to slot 13.

This will move up the Caprice Mounts and BF2-19 CEF Frame stretch goals by one slot each. The Stretch Goal 10 at $87K is now to unlock the Caprice Bashan Mount plus Aphek, Kadesh, and Meggido conversion parts sprue and will add 4 Free Bashan/Conversion parts sprues to Core Starter Set.

Stretch goal 10 will also Unlock the Caprice and CEF Patches for $5 each and the Caprice Bashan/conversion parts sprue for $13 each Add-On Reward.

Below we have included a revised Stretch Goal info graphic to show the changes, this info graphic will replace the older one on the main page. Plus we have images of the Caprice and CEF patches that will be available once goal 10 is unlocked.

Thank you everyone for your feedback and suggestions on the stretch goals, we are listening and we appreciate your support."

So. Is it a good enough deal now Alpharius?

Edit : At Reecius, interested to see more retailers jump in and more news for the KS. See you then!

Second edit: warboss, if you say so I won't doubt your word concerning the molds. I just hope that if it does take that long the community will have playtester enough to solidify both the rules and the models for everyone to enjoy.

The original four Caprice mounts in plastic are go!

 Alpharius wrote:
So close to 6mm scale?

The individual human infantry models are 12mm from base to top of head. (I measured the first one that came to hand, a forward observer person...)

The typical heavy gear is about an inch to an inch and a quarter from base to top of model.

So it's slightly smaller scale than Flames of War, but Flames of War terrain is likely to be "close enough" to use if you have some.

It is damn close!

I love Mechs, and this scale...I'm close now...very close!

Thanks for clarifying that, solkan. I didn't catch the desire to use FoW terrain, and I haven't played that game either.

 Alpharius wrote:
So close to 6mm scale?

12mm

This scale:


(I'd say "Space Marine" is more or less a generic ruler nowadays)

 frozenwastes wrote:
I just wonder how typical I am these days. Do people actually care about games being fast and streamlined versions of previous rules?

Agreed, I find it hard to judge at times if my attraction or dislike for a game has to do more with the official presentation or due to how fan-based presentation may not reflect the actual rules & gameplay.

I also have had the same reaction that you and others pointed out about Infinity or another similar title despite the popularity those games enjoy; including models in a force just to let a single model do everything during actual play is pointless if not a waste of a player's $$$ and time.

 warboss wrote:
I've only pledged for one KS but I've followed relatively closely probably a dozen more and I don't think any of the larger ones that were more than just one or two sprues had anything even remotely close to a mould done in 2-3 months. I'd expect them to get the moulds done in 6-8 months assuming EVERYTHING goes as planned without any hiccups.

 solkan wrote:
The original four Caprice mounts in plastic are go!

I had been giving thought to coming up with the funds to pledge for some Frames or the CEF starter if the KS hit those levels, because they are so absurdly expensive in metal for their usefulness in some versions of the rules.
But now that the Pod has chosen to try and fund (3) different types of models for at least $6K less each than what was originally planned as the necessary amounts, on top of needing to add all (10) of those types to every core pledge if the campaign reaches those levels, forget it.

And, with better than two weeks yet to go in the campaign, that the company is spamming multiple threads on their own forums with the same updates plus lowering planned goals may give an impression that they once again do not want to be giving off.
I think putting a hold on certain models until another KS if that has to happen would probably be better for the company's exposure and reputation than giving the appearance of desperation or panic when only halfway through the very first funding campaign ever run by DP9.

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