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Considering the fact that the levels continued to go for several days jumping between 86k and 85k, it feels to me like there were some individuals who were continually pledging and then unpledging, bobbing the target numbers and leaving folks in a state of flux that was ruining the forward momentum of the Kickstarter.

So if they lowered the Stretch Goals for the most desired models to accommodate those who want the Caprician models and the BF2-19 to help them achieve the even higher funding goals, than so be it. That's smart business in my book. If you get folks who are trolling just to play with folks by pledging and unpledging repeatedly, you get a bad image either way.

I don't know if that is the case or not, perhaps it was all innocence and some folks really were just having a hard time with their daily lives, but the fact that the $65 CAD reward levels were added and only 3 people have chosen to back at that level, with the number fluctuating between 4 or 5 folks who seemed to pledge, then unpledge, then repledge and unpledge, for 2 or 3 days, well, now there aren't anymore excuses for folks not to want to keep pledging. The company wants the KS to be successful, and it wants the community and newcomers to be happy. So they are accommodating the desires of the Backers, both present and future.

BrandonKF wrote:
Considering the fact that the levels continued to go for several days jumping between 86k and 85k, it feels to me like there were some individuals who were continually pledging and then unpledging, bobbing the target numbers and leaving folks in a state of flux that was ruining the forward momentum of the Kickstarter.

So if they lowered the Stretch Goals for the most desired models to accommodate those who want the Caprician models and the BF2-19 to help them achieve the even higher funding goals, than so be it. That's smart business in my book. If you get folks who are trolling just to play with folks by pledging and unpledging repeatedly, you get a bad image either way.

I don't know if that is the case or not, perhaps it was all innocence and some folks really were just having a hard time with their daily lives, but the fact that the $65 CAD reward levels were added and only 3 people have chosen to back at that level, with the number fluctuating between 4 or 5 folks who seemed to pledge, then unpledge, then repledge and unpledge, for 2 or 3 days, well, now there aren't anymore excuses for folks not to want to keep pledging. The company wants the KS to be successful, and it wants the community and newcomers to be happy. So they are accommodating the desires of the Backers, both present and future.

I believe when a person goes back in to adjust their pledge(such as to add money for an add-on), it removes their old pledge total and it sometimes takes a while for them to post their new higher(or lower) total. This sometimes explains odd "bumpiness" in some campaigns.

 Reecius wrote:
Frontline Gaming backed this KS at the Retailer level! Looking forward to seeing it grow.

We also have an interview with Robert Dubois of DP9 coming up on the next episode of Signals from the Frontline, which we will repost here!

Does that mean we'll be seeing the next round of "how to" HG videos being played on FAT mats? There's an old adage about scratching backs that comes to mind. Also, don't forget to post the link to the interview here in the thread.

I had heard about the adjusting of pledges affecting the levels, but for it to be going on for two or three days was odd. We went as high as $87k and then as low as $84.9 at one point.

BrandonKF wrote:
Sure, folks are saying, I will wait until they go to retail, but if you know this Kickstarter will be given priority by the company for the Backers, wouldn't you want your stuff as soon as possible?

When it comes to Kickstarters, reliability is far more important than getting the miniatures before retail availability. As this is a new management team running a company with past issues doing something they've never done before, I want to see them make the product, send it to backers and then backers can post reviews, pictures and videos so I know it actually turned out okay. Then I'll order some at retail.

But give them money for a year in the hopes it turns out okay? When the amount of plastic miniatures being promised is really high compared to the amount of money raised?

Wait and see is the smart move here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:There are only two solutions to this... you either

a) Decrease the intended model count... which makes less money for the company.
...
b) Decrease the rules complexity. That is ostensibly what we're doing here.

And you have to accomplish this while balancing the need to appeal to both existing customers and potential new ones.

While I am a 2nd edition fan, for Heavy Gear going forward, I can only advocate a complete reboot where the game is designed from scratch to meet the design goals of the company. I just don't believe that yet another revision of HG:B:L&L:1.1 will get there. I'd advocate for a complete cutting of the cord with 2nd edition and Blitz ideas as I don't think they're appropriate for today's retail gaming market unless you're trying for an appeal to existing players from back in the day like Catalyst does with Battletech.

Smilodon_UP wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
I just wonder how typical I am these days. Do people actually care about games being fast and streamlined versions of previous rules?

Agreed, I find it hard to judge at times if my attraction or dislike for a game has to do more with the official presentation or due to how fan-based presentation may not reflect the actual rules & gameplay.

Heavy Gear is an interesting situation where you basically have really loyal fans and then a bunch of people who check it out, maybe buy a starter and then never revisit it. It seems like it's aimed at a niche within a niche and now DP9 is in the awkward position of keeping existing customers while trying to develop new player and retailer friendly products.

I also have had the same reaction that you and others pointed out about Infinity or another similar title despite the popularity those games enjoy; including models in a force just to let a single model do everything during actual play is pointless if not a waste of a player's $$$ and time.

Yeah, I have a zero tolerance policy for cheerleading in Infinity. Though with 3rd edition I'm looking forward to taking a lot of E/M and hacking and isolating the super soldiers from their order pool. Normally if I know someone is taking a cheerleading army list, I'll just pass on the game and play someone or something else, but once 3rd truly hits, I may go cheerleader game hunting. I quit 1st edition because it was just endless cheerleading locally at a time when the game didn't have as many answers as it does today (and will have even more of in the near future with N3).

I think that there definitely seems to be quite a serious disconnect between what the rules intend and what the rules and force construction allow as things stand.
It's still a whole lot of skirmish oriented model & equipment swaps for a single combat group, in a ruleset that continues to be heavily melee oriented, but that at the same time is intentionally trying to up overall model count.

EDIT:

Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels. Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?

BrandonKF wrote:
Thanks for clarifying that, solkan. I didn't catch the desire to use FoW terrain, and I haven't played that game either.

I just mention the Flames of War terrain because it's pretty available in my area, and the desert buildings and a lot of the secondary terrain is easily adaptable to Heavy Gear, especially if you're aiming for badlands tables. I mean, I've got a 10 gallon storage box of that game's terrain, but I picked up my first Flames of War model (a box of M113's) to convert into placeholder APCs while I try some stuff out.

But "That's some nice terrain you guys got there. Want to see two squads of giant robots fight through that city?" makes a good line, I think, even if it's a bit anachronistic to have gears running through a WWII era village.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels.
Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?

This is definitely a question one of the fluff-gurus like Albertorius or Firebreak might have to look into if they don't already know.
As best I can recall offhand myself, the disembodied brain-in-a-jar idea was quite heavily hinted at in one or both of the War for Terra Nova books, and discussed on the forum at length, but I'm not at all sure a definitive answer was ever presented in a published product.

I think the arguments leaned towards the brain-in-a-jar view because there were also FLAIL controlled hovertanks & FLAIL piloted frames, not just power armored infantry.

On the practical side though, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Because a force already dependent on high-tech equipment now has to maintain another type of intricate computer control system while lacking those physical bodied crewmembers that would normally perform the constant and necessary front-line maintenance for all of those vehicles.

_
_

 Smilodon_UP wrote:
I think the arguments leaned towards the brain-in-a-jar view because there were also FLAIL controlled hovertanks & FLAIL piloted frames, not just power armored infantry.

Right, forget how many flail controlled things there were.

On the practical side though, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Because a force already dependent on high-tech equipment now has to maintain another type of intricate computer control system while lacking those physical bodied crewmembers that would normally perform the constant and necessary front-line maintenance for all of those vehicles.

I always got the sense that flails were more of a tactical insertion type force where they'd go out, do their mission and then be extracted rather than holding or patroling on the front line. And that there was some sort of advantage to having this degree of specialization in terms of an engineered brain-in-a-jar that would make having separate maintenance personal worth it.

I've had a fondness for brain-in-a-jar cyborgs since the 80s though, so maybe it's me just being fond of the idea.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels. Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?

This is the original FLAIL fluff:

FLAILs
Front-Line Augmented Infantry Legionnaires are the CEF’s “upgraded” GRELs. In a distinctly uncharacteristic move, the CEF started offering veteran GRELs a chance to receive “upgrades” that let them utilize new equipment. Many accepted, some were forced, and even new GRELs who had not yet been woken up were sent to the Sandrakar-Xia Interworld facility on Botany Bay. Those that came back had a new designation and were wearing very sophisticated powered armor. After a few trials, the CEF has implemented mass upgrades, with the goal to have as many FLAILs as possible for the second assault on the colonies.

Scuttlebutt in the fleet is that these new units are far more obedient, able to react quicker, and are unnaturally aware of their surroundings. Only the scientists placed in charge of the FLAILs have seen them outside of the armored suits. Officers have been assured the upgrades have dealt with the personality “problem” and that FLAILs will respond much better on the field of battle than GRELs. FLAIL tanks are being outfitted and only FLAILs are able to pilot the main line Battleframes. Another very strange thing about the FLAILs is every unit seems equipped with a self-destruct mechanism that activates in case of severe damage or capture. While not enough to cause damage to a large area, it will turn the entire powered armor suit to slag, along with the user.

So, yeah, basically advertised as "upgrades" for the GREL, actually basically brains in jars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frozenwastes wrote:

On the practical side though, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Because a force already dependent on high-tech equipment now has to maintain another type of intricate computer control system while lacking those physical bodied crewmembers that would normally perform the constant and necessary front-line maintenance for all of those vehicles.

They are... a solution for a problem that kind of doesn't really exist, actually. The GRELs "personality problems" had all to do with their hypnotraining regime and nothing at all to do with the actual GRELs.

I always got the sense that flails were more of a tactical insertion type force where they'd go out, do their mission and then be extracted rather than holding or patroling on the front line. And that there was some sort of advantage to having this degree of specialization in terms of an engineered brain-in-a-jar that would make having separate maintenance personal worth it.

I've had a fondness for brain-in-a-jar cyborgs since the 80s though, so maybe it's me just being fond of the idea.

They probably would make more sense as ultra-special forces, yeah ^^

 Albertorius wrote:


(I'd say "Space Marine" is more or less a generic ruler nowadays)

I was thinking a bit more about this picture. I think if I was relaunching the game and plastic was going to happen, I'd take the opportunity to make the miniatures more impressive than just being space marine equivalents.



I took the picture and grew the miniature up to being 1/87 like the very fist HG miniatures were. The miniatures weren't able to be maintained at that scale because the industry moved away from lead in the miniatures and price for the larger miniatures was thought to be just too high at that scale.

But we're talking plastic here. And the sprues are being 3d designed from scratch.

I imagine it's just like the rules though-- too much of a need to maintain the interest of the small current player base to do a proper relaunch from the ground up reconsidering everything.

Just making more space marine sized gears seems like a missed opportunity. Even if they do go with my (and other's) existing collections.

Smilodon_UP wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels.
Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?

This is definitely a question one of the fluff-gurus like Albertorius or Firebreak might have

He beat me to it! (And frankly knows much more than I do anyways.)

Albertorius wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels. Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?

This is the original FLAIL fluff:

FLAILs
Front-Line Augmented Infantry Legionnaires are the CEF’s “upgraded” GRELs. In a distinctly uncharacteristic move, the CEF started offering veteran GRELs a chance to receive “upgrades” that let them utilize new equipment. Many accepted, some were forced, and even new GRELs who had not yet been woken up were sent to the Sandrakar-Xia Interworld facility on Botany Bay. Those that came back had a new designation and were wearing very sophisticated powered armor. After a few trials, the CEF has implemented mass upgrades, with the goal to have as many FLAILs as possible for the second assault on the colonies.

Scuttlebutt in the fleet is that these new units are far more obedient, able to react quicker, and are unnaturally aware of their surroundings. Only the scientists placed in charge of the FLAILs have seen them outside of the armored suits. Officers have been assured the upgrades have dealt with the personality “problem” and that FLAILs will respond much better on the field of battle than GRELs. FLAIL tanks are being outfitted and only FLAILs are able to pilot the main line Battleframes. Another very strange thing about the FLAILs is every unit seems equipped with a self-destruct mechanism that activates in case of severe damage or capture. While not enough to cause damage to a large area, it will turn the entire powered armor suit to slag, along with the user.

So, yeah, basically advertised as "upgrades" for the GREL, actually basically brains in jars.

Your usual pilot or soldier is going likely going think they're GRELs in sweet new armour, at least for a little while longer. A commander or spec-ops guy might know the truth though. Because they are technically power armoured GRELs, so why get into semantics with the regular schmucks?

 frozenwastes wrote:



I took the picture and grew the miniature up to being 1/87 like the very fist HG miniatures were. The miniatures weren't able to be maintained at that scale because the industry moved away from lead in the miniatures and price for the larger miniatures was thought to be just too high at that scale.

But we're talking plastic here. And the sprues are being 3d designed from scratch.

I imagine it's just like the rules though-- too much of a need to maintain the interest of the small current player base to do a proper relaunch from the ground up reconsidering everything.

Just making more space marine sized gears seems like a missed opportunity. Even if they do go with my (and other's) existing collections.

1/87 scale plastic Gears would be awesome, true, but they are fighting against inertia here (as all their current player base uses 1/144 minis) and the size of the minis would probably run counter with their objective of bigger games.

That said, I'd certainly like to see that. And I would like even more to see them done in 28mm. That would rock my socks off. Imagine: a 28mm HG game with about a squad/cadre per side with supporting infantry/guns/small vehicles. <drools>

EDIT: Warboss was doing something similar, and I think it rocks:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/635230-Counts%20as%20TAGs%20VOTOMS.html?m=2

Hi All,

Just want to update everyone on our first Kickstarter, its now half way through the campaign and we are now over $87K Pledged and have unlocked our 10th stretch goal.

We made an updated graphic of what's included in the War for Terra Nova - Core Starter Set with all the stretch goals that are unlocked so far, here it is for everyone to check out.



The other day we also previewed the new Acco light trooper Mount for the Caprice faction that is our next major stretch goal, the preview is below.



Thank you everyone for your support, and please help us by sharing this post with friends.

Here is a link to the Kickstarter for you to go check it out:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-war-for-terra-nova-starter-set

 Albertorius wrote:

1/87 scale plastic Gears would be awesome, true, but they are fighting against inertia here (as all their current player base uses 1/144 minis) and the size of the minis would probably run counter with their objective of bigger games.

Yeah, considering this project originally started as an idea to make another revision to the printed rules and only became about miniatures when the existing customer base told them they wanted plastic miniatures, there's just no way any real ground up changes in terms of either rules or miniatures would be made here.

That said, I'd certainly like to see that. And I would like even more to see them done in 28mm. That would rock my socks off. Imagine: a 28mm HG game with about a squad/cadre per side with supporting infantry/guns/small vehicles. <drools>

EDIT: Warboss was doing something similar, and I think it rocks:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/635230-Counts%20as%20TAGs%20VOTOMS.html?m=2

It's a shame votom models aren't easy to find right now. I think 28mm would be cool and the models a bit big, but GW and PP have shown people seem to want things like colossals, knights, trygons, and such. And even at 28mm, they wouldn't be that big as gears are like 15ft tall or so. I wonder if bigger gears could have also gotten crossover buying for people who might want to use them in other games like as 40k tau.

You already know the 28mm scale is under Arkrite.

Blitz is for wargaming. Right now, for 102 American dollars, I think the Kickstarter is at a good place with the number of Models you can get.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

1/87 scale plastic Gears would be awesome, true, but they are fighting against inertia here (as all their current player base uses 1/144 minis) and the size of the minis would probably run counter with their objective of bigger games.

Yeah, considering this project originally started as an idea to make another revision to the printed rules and only became about miniatures when the existing customer base told them they wanted plastic miniatures, there's just no way any real ground up changes in terms of either rules or miniatures would be made here.

Arkrite Press, the folks who are going to working on the Heavy Gear RPG, are planning on doing some larger scale models. Probably for next year, although I don't know if any details have been announced yet.

That's your best bet for seeing Heavy Gear in a larger scale, I think. If you don't want to scratch build V-engines for 1/20 or 1/35 models kits.

BrandonKF wrote:You already know the 28mm scale is under Arkrite.

I found the Arkite site very sparse with information about exactly what they will be producing. Has the production of 28mm scale gears been confirmed anywhere at all?

solkan wrote:
Arkrite Press, the folks who are going to working on the Heavy Gear RPG, are planning on doing some larger scale models. Probably for next year, although I don't know if any details have been announced yet.

I was saying that if you're going to take the opportunity to fund some plastics and relaunch the game, not making the actual central miniatures of the game a bit more impressive than space marine equivalents is a missed opportunity.

So far everything in this KS is just more of the same sort of stuff that DP9 has been doing since Blitz came out. It'll be cool for the existing player base and people who remember it from back in the day to get some plastic gears, but considering what a true relaunch kickstarter could have been, it doesn't really offer anything new as it's specifically designed to appeal to the existing anemic player base. As I posted earlier:

frozenwastes wrote:Yeah, considering this project originally started as an idea to make another revision to the printed rules and only became about miniatures when the existing customer base told them they wanted plastic miniatures, there's just no way any real ground up changes in terms of either rules or miniatures would be made here.

They're actually changing the core rules of the game, although probably it would be fairer to call it a revision. But their alledged goal seems to be for it to play faster with more minis (what the current system looks like right now is another thing).

It's a shame votom models aren't easy to find right now. I think 28mm would be cool and the models a bit big, but GW and PP have shown people seem to want things like colossals, knights, trygons, and such. And even at 28mm, they wouldn't be that big as gears are like 15ft tall or so. I wonder if bigger gears could have also gotten crossover buying for people who might want to use them in other games like as 40k tau.

A regular Hunter is 4.3m high, which in 1\56 scale would translate to about 7,67 cm high. Which would be at about 3'' high with a bit of change (EDIT: Standing absolutely upright, that is. I assume they usually wouldn't be). Seeing as going by the GW page an Imperial Knight is about 8'' high, I don't think it would be too much. It would basically be about the size of a SM dreadnought (a bit higher, less wide).

Taking that into account, I'd say that yes, the potential for crossover buying would certainly be high.

BrandonKF wrote:You already know the 28mm scale is under Arkrite.

Yes. I also know that Arkrite has no current plans for doing a ruleset for them other than the RPG.

I would love to see a game with meaningful and characterful campaign rules, in the vein of games like Deadzone or the old Necromunda, which would allow a smallish force to advance and evolve.

Also, something like a 28mm version of HG Arena (only with rules that, you know, actually worked) would be really sweet.

 Albertorius wrote:

They're actually changing the core rules of the game, although probably it would be fairer to call it a revision. But their alledged goal seems to be for it to play faster with more minis (what the current system looks like right now is another thing).

I think it only really counts as a change of the core rules to those who are very familiar with the minutia of the revisions from Blitz, to L&L to 1.1 to field manual to whatever. It's seems to me to be pretty much the same branch of design, development and testing as everything that's come before. It's just another revision of a game that's failed to really work as a product for DP9 (as evidenced by the rapid rate of revisions and replacement of rules often before all the armies get updated from the last time) or for the gaming community (as evidenced by the failure of the game to spread even with things like Wayland and Beasts of War pumping it).

A regular Hunter is 4.3m high, which in 1\56 scale would translate to about 7,67 cm high. Which would be at about 3'' high with a bit of change (EDIT: Standing absolutely upright, that is. I assume they usually wouldn't be). Seeing as going by the GW page an Imperial Knight is about 8'' high, I don't think it would be too much. It would basically be about the size of a SM dreadnought (a bit higher, less wide).

Taking that into account, I'd say that yes, the potential for crossover buying would certainly be high.

I wasn't say they'd be analogous to knights or trygons, but simply that people are willing to get larger kits for their 28mm gaming these days. So you can still have larger tanks and whatnot. And even then, the gears wouldn't be that big. So it's not that much of a stretch in terms of sprue/kit design and production.

This whole KS seems to be an attempt to take an approach that hasn't worked well for years and then bank on KS marketing to get people to pre-pay for the same thing all over again. Let's do what hasn't worked in the past, but this time we'll get people to prepay a year in advance! What could go wrong?

 frozenwastes wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:You already know the 28mm scale is under Arkrite.

I found the Arkite site very sparse with information about exactly what they will be producing. Has the production of 28mm scale gears been confirmed anywhere at all?

They speak specifically of using characters to start with. Gears themselves would need funding. The fact that it is sparse on information is their desire to get the rules done right. Hence the Test Pilot program.

solkan wrote:
Arkrite Press, the folks who are going to working on the Heavy Gear RPG, are planning on doing some larger scale models. Probably for next year, although I don't know if any details have been announced yet.

I was saying that if you're going to take the opportunity to fund some plastics and relaunch the game, not making the actual central miniatures of the game a bit more impressive than space marine equivalents is a missed opportunity.

So far everything in this KS is just more of the same sort of stuff that DP9 has been doing since Blitz came out. It'll be cool for the existing player base and people who remember it from back in the day to get some plastic gears, but considering what a true relaunch kickstarter could have been, it doesn't really offer anything new as it's specifically designed to appeal to the existing anemic player base. As I posted earlier:

You sound like someone who is convincing themselves not to give the new ruleset a chance. You have reiterated the same points that have already been covered by Smilodon, mrondeau and others.

This switch to plastics is intended to make it easier for NEW players to get in the game.

Nor just for the existing player base. Many of those involved already have PLENTY of miniatures to their collections to hold larger battles than 20 miniatures.

A proper relaunch, as you put it, would have been a new ruleset. IceRaptor did that with the new edition by changing the dice mechanics.

The company should listen to the players about the Beta. Clearly, they are, because the Beta will remain open until it can be finalized for the new players who decide to join in.

The rules should be free. They are. And they will remain free, and be placed in a living format that will be updated once every six months or yearly.

The miniatures should be affordable. With this KS, they are.

Do you have any new objections?

Because clearly for new players, this KS is everything you seem to think it isn't.

Edit: What do you call a "proper relaunch"?

BrandonKF wrote:

You sound like someone who is convincing themselves not to give the new ruleset a chance.

Reading the rules gave me the sense that they're not worthy of a chance. It's a huge collection of technical complicated messes. Hyped up in the language of playing more fast and streamlined. All based on the fact that this Kickstarter originally started as a means of revising the rules for the existing player base and only switching to being about plastic miniatures because the existing player base asked for it.

The game isn't really growing. It's important to look at what a company has been doing if you want to evaluate how they might handle a Kickstarter. And it's not good news.

This switch to plastics is intended to make it easier for NEW players to get in the game.

And before that the starter sets were intended to make it easier for NEW players to get in the game. Hyped on Beasts of War, distributed by Wayland and yet... here were are back at another new version of the same game.

Just because something is intended to make it easier for new players doesn't mean that they'll stick around after getting their starters and trying the game out. I just don't see why this would be any different than when people got the last batch of Heavy Gear starters and didn't really stick around.

A proper relaunch, as you put it, would have been a new ruleset. IceRaptor did that with the new edition by changing the dice mechanics.

That's simply not sufficient to call it a new game. It's a revised dice mechanic plopped into the same pre-existing framework that didn't work in the past. It's still Blitz at its core, but with 8 years of convoluted development and then a rewrite that reads like software documentation. But it's not a new game, not really.

Because clearly for new players, this KS is everything you seem to think it isn't.

I think the KS is asking people to prepay a year out in order to experience pretty much the same thing that people have experienced with the last line of starters. A substandard set of rules and miniatures that are less impressive than space marines, but cost more.

Edit: What do you call a "proper relaunch"?

Product design from the ground up. Design a game of gear vs gear combat where you identify the types of decisions you want players to make. Where you craft the experience of each step of the game process. It may even work better as a miniature wargame/board game hybrid like Deadzone. And if the gears are supposed to be the cool thing about the Heavy Gear universe, I just don't think that space marine sized miniatures really pop enough.

A proper relaunch would be realizing what hasn't been working and electing not to go through another round of working the same plan, but somehow expecting different results.

At an absolute minimum, I'd expect a relaunch to have a really engaging set of quick start rules that people can use to jump in really easily. The Reaper CAV KS had the same issue-- here's a beta of a full rules set that you'll need to work through to really engage with this game. A relaunch should have finished, fun rules that aren't a barrier to people's interest.

---

 frozenwastes wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:

You sound like someone who is convincing themselves not to give the new ruleset a chance.

Reading the rules gave me the sense that they're not worthy of a chance. It's a huge collection of technical complicated messes all dressed up in the language of playing more fast and streamlined. All based on the fact that this Kickstarter originally started as a means of revising the rules for the existing player base and only switching to being about plastic miniatures because the existing player base asked for it.

Because the existing player base wants new players.

The existing player base isn't working. The game isn't really growing. It's important to look at what a company has been doing if you want to evaluate how they might handle a Kickstarter. And it's not good news.

If new players show up, yes it is good news.

And before that the starter sets were intended to make it easier for NEW players to get in the game. Hyped on Beasts of War, distributed by Wayland and yet... here were are back at another new version of the same game.

You mean the week they painted a pink Wildcat? Yeah, I was there for that. You think that was the look HG wanted?

The original Starter Set of 3 vs. 3 was limited. This Core Starter Set is 4 different factions for 102 dollars American.

Just because something is intended to make it easier for new players doesn't mean that they'll stick around after getting their starters and trying the game out. I just don't see why this would be any different than when people got the last batch of Heavy Gear starters and didn't really stick around.

And right now those old returning players and the existing player base is attempting to get the word out and to broaden the appeal to new players so they will stick around. What you see is what you see presented here.

That's simply not sufficient to call it a new game. It's a revised dice mechanic plopped into the same pre-existing framework that didn't work in the past.

It isn't a new game. Edit:But they want it to play as a game that will be fun for everyone who picks it up.

I think the KS is asking people to prepay a year out in order to experience pretty much the same thing that people have experienced with the last line of starters. A substandard set of rules and miniatures that are less impressive than space marines, but cost more.

Product design from the ground up. Design a game of gear vs gear combat where you identify the types of decisions you want players to make. Where you craft the experience of each step of the game process. It may even work better as a miniature wargame/board game hybrid like Deadzone. And if the gears are supposed to be the cool thing about the Heavy Gear universe, I just don't think that space marine sized miniatures really pop enough.

A proper relaunch would be realizing what hasn't been working and electing not to go through another round of working the same plan, but somehow expecting different results.

You call it substandard. That is the point behind the Beta is to make the ruleset work.

Out of all that, the most I got was that you think it would operate like Deadzone.

Are the Gears the cool thing about the Heavy Gear Universe? Sure. They make for a great antagonist, without going full-fledged Gundam Wing.

But they are by no means the only thing. With Blitz you can use combined arms as freely as you wish. Heavy Gear may have been titled that for the primary war machine, but they are not the only vehicle type to land on the tabletop. Designing the product to only aim towards Gears would make the entire idea of Gears being used in teams to war against advanced hovertanks and supersoldiers less ideal. The days of the old North versus South Interpolar War are well behind. A great time to visit in roleplaying opportunities, but it is limited for a tabletop miniatures game.

They elected to switch to plastic so new players can purchase in easily, but you call it prepaying. It isn't prepaying, it is a crowdfunding effort.

And while the idea of having a slick Quickstart rules guide is nice, they have already said they will give Backers a short Quickstart guide with the basics included for all the Backers. With more Backers and more playtesters and a broader community we can expect everything to come around very nicely.

BrandonKF wrote:

Out of all that, the most I got was that you think it would operate like Deadzone.

What?! No. Why would you assume that? It was just an example inside a larger point that things need to be questioned in a far wider scope than they are. Like asking "is this game even the right format for a new heavy gear game?"

Because the existing player base wants new players.

So doing more of the same that hasn't really expanded the player base in the past is suddenly going to work this time around? Because you want it to?

And right now those old returning players and the existing player base is attempting to get the word out and to broaden the appeal to new players so they will stick around.

Getting the word out has nothing with them sticking around. The first deals with recruiting, the second with retention. The issue is going to end up being product experience once people try it. Just like was with the last rulebook release. People got their starter armies and read the rules therein and then... nothing.

This new version of the rules is the product of those who stuck around from the last version of the rules. Anyone who had different ideas has been slowly frozen out of the process. It's incestuous game design where you write to appeal to a narrow segment of the player base because they stuck around and then pretend it'll attract new blood and somehow, magically, keep them this time.

What HG really needs are for people to get their game and get their friends to try it and become the active force in their community for the playing of the game. If the Blitz rules worked as a foundation for such an approach, it would have worked already last time they tried it.

But they [gears] are by no means the only thing.

I didn't say they were the only thing. I said they were the cool thing. They're iconic to the setting. They're even eponymous. So if you're going to relaunch the game, then focusing on them would be smart. They take centre stage in this KS, for example. I mentioned them as the basis for a true relaunch because when it comes to HG, they are what makes it immediately recognizable and asking what goes on when gears fight gears can be the basis for game design from scratch.

But this KS isn't a relaunch. It's the next revision of Blitz in a long line of revisions. This is DP9 wanting to make a new rulebook, going to the existing customer base and finding out they are interested in plastic miniatures and then making a KS for a new starter set with the new rulebook and the plastic miniatures. My whole point is that this is a missed opportunity for a real relaunch of the brand.

Also, if you don't see paying and getting the product a year later (or more) as prepaying, I can't help you. Yes, it's also called crowdfunding. DP9 is asking people to give money in advance and get product much later. Just like any KS for product purchase.

---

If someone is backing this or thinking about backing it, they really should take the opportunity to download the PDF of the beta rules and give it a read through and ask themselves if they really want to play it. It'd be crappy to spend $100+, wait a year and then find out. And if it clicks with you? Great. You found a game you know you'll enjoy, so back the project.

---

BrandonKF wrote:

The miniatures should be affordable. With this KS, they are.

That's relatively true. The current starter, at KS prices, is quite cheap, compared with the current minis line, yes.

But that is not the retail price, and DP9 has already said as much. So even with all these stretch goals unlocked, we don't really know how "affordable" will it be, once it hits retail.

And then there's the individual minis.

1 single plastic Hunter/Jäger for 5 bucks or 1 Jaguar/BM for $6 is... not bad, I guess, particularly taking into account the metal prices, but it's nothing to write home about either, for a Space Marine sized mini.

1 single plastic Grizzly/Spitting Cobra for 9 bucks is, again, cheaper than the current metal ones... but that was easy, because the current metal prices for those minis are kinda GW level. And $9 for a single plastic mini is not that cheap, either.

And then there's the mounts, that go for $13 each, in plastic. Again, affordable in comparison with current metal prices, not that much when compared with the whole of the market.

And once again, we don't really know how much will they cost at retail.

It is a great step in the right direction? Absolutely. Is really cheap, compared with other, comparable offers in the market. Well...

BrandonKF wrote:
They elected to switch to plastic so new players can purchase in easily, but you call it prepaying. It isn't prepaying, it is a crowdfunding effort.

My only concern here is the aftermarket cost. As with the other major "big stompy robot" game, I'm concerned for attraction of new player after the KS. Sure, the KS prices at the moment are pretty reasonable (and going to get better), but charging $100 for 16 miniatures, and $5-$9 + retail markup percentage on figures afterwards, may be problematic after the fact.

It's the same thing I see with Robotech. A disconnect between the people that got good/great deals on their product, and the new guy who's looking at having to pay at least $156 to just get the North/South figures (much more to add CEF/Caprice). I'm not saying that they shouldn't be offering significant deals. Don't get me wrong there. But as with Robotech, I think it gets lost on people how much these games will cost for people after the KS. Caprice Mounts at $52+ per squad. Are they going to be cheaper than the current metal versions? Sure. But with the end price likely to be higher, how much of a difference will there be?

I'm currently in for 4 core starters, because that gets me, for the most part (I have supreme faith we'll hit the 99K mark) 3 more than complete armies. But I'm looking at the add-on costs (and adding the aftermarket/shipping costs), and I'm honestly not sure, having already put in that much, how many, if any, I'll spend on getting more plastics, let alone having to pay current retail on tanks and infantry (if I want them in the near future).

I've been collecting the game since the cardboard box/standee/paper mat set, and have bought the rules/background books for quite a while (I'm very much OCBuyer in that regard). On the bookshelf, it's about 25" across the spines. But I never got into the miniatures, because it was just prohibitively expensive to have anything more than token forces. The KS allows me to get a large bulk of stuff at a reasonable price. But if I'd missed the KS, or as a theoretical "New buyer", I doubt I would buy in.

TLDR- What Albertorius said.

BrandonKF wrote:

A proper relaunch, as you put it, would have been a new ruleset. IceRaptor did that with the new edition by changing the dice mechanics.

I changed significantly more than just the dice mechanics - but I think it's correct to say that the Beta is a refinement of ideas expressed in Blitz and L&L rather than a 'new ruleset'. What substantially changed was how you roll dice - but most other concepts remain close to where they were in Blitz. There are differences, sure - but things like activation remain the same, the general premises of weapons and how you do damage remains mostly the same, etc. Changes in how the math is expressed doesn't imply changes in the core of the game, which I think is where frozenwastes is coming from. This is one of those things where what your definition of a 'new ruleset' is will determine if you think the Beta is a new ruleset, or not.

Albertorius wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:

The miniatures should be affordable. With this KS, they are.

That's relatively true. The current starter, at KS prices, is quite cheap, compared with the current minis line, yes.

But that is not the retail price, and DP9 has already said as much. So even with all these stretch goals unlocked, we don't really know how "affordable" will it be, once it hits retail.

And then there's the individual minis.

1 single plastic Hunter/Jäger for 5 bucks or 1 Jaguar/BM for $6 is... not bad, I guess, particularly taking into account the metal prices, but it's nothing to write home about either, for a Space Marine sized mini.

1 single plastic Grizzly/Spitting Cobra for 9 bucks is, again, cheaper than the current metal ones... but that was easy, because the current metal prices for those minis are kinda GW level. And $9 for a single plastic mini is not that cheap, either.

And then there's the mounts, that go for $13 each, in plastic. Again, affordable in comparison with current metal prices, not that much when compared with the whole of the market.

And once again, we don't really know how much will they cost at retail.

It is a great step in the right direction? Absolutely. Is really cheap, compared with other, comparable offers in the market. Well...

Morgan Vening wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
They elected to switch to plastic so new players can purchase in easily, but you call it prepaying. It isn't prepaying, it is a crowdfunding effort.

My only concern here is the aftermarket cost. As with the other major "big stompy robot" game, I'm concerned for attraction of new player after the KS. Sure, the KS prices at the moment are pretty reasonable (and going to get better), but charging $100 for 16 miniatures, and $5-$9 + retail markup percentage on figures afterwards, may be problematic after the fact.

It's the same thing I see with Robotech. A disconnect between the people that got good/great deals on their product, and the new guy who's looking at having to pay at least $156 to just get the North/South figures (much more to add CEF/Caprice). I'm not saying that they shouldn't be offering significant deals. Don't get me wrong there. But as with Robotech, I think it gets lost on people how much these games will cost for people after the KS. Caprice Mounts at $52+ per squad. Are they going to be cheaper than the current metal versions? Sure. But with the end price likely to be higher, how much of a difference will there be?

I'm currently in for 4 core starters, because that gets me, for the most part (I have supreme faith we'll hit the 99K mark) 3 more than complete armies. But I'm looking at the add-on costs (and adding the aftermarket/shipping costs), and I'm honestly not sure, having already put in that much, how many, if any, I'll spend on getting more plastics, let alone having to pay current retail on tanks and infantry (if I want them in the near future).

I've been collecting the game since the cardboard box/standee/paper mat set, and have bought the rules/background books for quite a while (I'm very much OCBuyer in that regard). On the bookshelf, it's about 25" across the spines. But I never got into the miniatures, because it was just prohibitively expensive to have anything more than token forces. The KS allows me to get a large bulk of stuff at a reasonable price. But if I'd missed the KS, or as a theoretical "New buyer", I doubt I would buy in.

@Albertorius, With the whole of the market, I can't speak for how cheap you can get comparable figures across the board. Then again, I would want to look for affordability, and also quality.

I do not know how others view Heavy Gear's product line, but in the history of my purchasing their miniatures, I am not displeased with the quality of the miniatures themselves.

The question of these plastic miniatures' quality and their level of detail is something that should be addressed by the company, absolutely, but I am willing to pledge and wait to see the results. So far I have had no complaints from their existing lines.

@Morgan, Personally I am hoping that the retail price mark-up is not as significant as the aforementioned 50%. I would prefer it be kept within the 20% margin, if at all possible. The Kickstarter is already a very successful one, as you said, and it would be great if more retailers and distributors caught onto it and began getting into it. Often, from what I read among fans, the retailers are either die-hards who won't support something from Dream Pod 9, due whether to the RAFM change or due to previous editions' changes, or they won't support something that they feel will just collect dust on their shelves. In this I can't convince a retailer to take risks if they see it as such, but I would want to bug their ears a bit.

frozenwastes wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:

Out of all that, the most I got was that you think it would operate like Deadzone.

What?! No. Why would you assume that? It was just an example inside a larger point that things need to be questioned in a far wider scope than they are. Like asking "is this game even the right format for a new heavy gear game?"

Because the existing player base wants new players.

So doing more of the same that hasn't really expanded the player base in the past is suddenly going to work this time around? Because you want it to?

And right now those old returning players and the existing player base is attempting to get the word out and to broaden the appeal to new players so they will stick around.

Getting the word out has nothing with them sticking around. The first deals with recruiting, the second with retention. The issue is going to end up being product experience once people try it. Just like was with the last rulebook release. People got their starter armies and read the rules therein and then... nothing.

This new version of the rules is the product of those who stuck around from the last version of the rules. Anyone who had different ideas has been slowly frozen out of the process. It's incestuous game design where you write to appeal to a narrow segment of the player base because they stuck around and then pretend it'll attract new blood and somehow, magically, keep them this time.

What HG really needs are for people to get their game and get their friends to try it and become the active force in their community for the playing of the game. If the Blitz rules worked as a foundation for such an approach, it would have worked already last time they tried it.

But they [gears] are by no means the only thing.

I didn't say they were the only thing. I said they were the cool thing. They're iconic to the setting. They're even eponymous. So if you're going to relaunch the game, then focusing on them would be smart. They take centre stage in this KS, for example. I mentioned them as the basis for a true relaunch because when it comes to HG, they are what makes it immediately recognizable and asking what goes on when gears fight gears can be the basis for game design from scratch.

But this KS isn't a relaunch. It's the next revision of Blitz in a long line of revisions. This is DP9 wanting to make a new rulebook, going to the existing customer base and finding out they are interested in plastic miniatures and then making a KS for a new starter set with the new rulebook and the plastic miniatures. My whole point is that this is a missed opportunity for a real relaunch of the brand.

Also, if you don't see paying and getting the product a year later (or more) as prepaying, I can't help you. Yes, it's also called crowdfunding. DP9 is asking people to give money in advance and get product much later. Just like any KS for product purchase.

---

If someone is backing this or thinking about backing it, they really should take the opportunity to download the PDF of the beta rules and give it a read through and ask themselves if they really want to play it. It'd be crappy to spend $100+, wait a year and then find out. And if it clicks with you? Great. You found a game you know you'll enjoy, so back the project.

---

I believe the history behind the rules' editions has already been explained enough here to warrant just dropping it.

As to the right format for the game, I guess you and I just have very different ideas of how a wargame is played.

As to doing more of the same, no.
Do I want the community to broaden? Yes.

And I think you are missing the point about the existing player base wanting the rulebook versus wanting plastic miniatures.

So I will use this from the DP9 forums to explain what went down:

From Dave to the fans for the Poll about a Kickstarter in August of this year (2014).

"Originally we had been very adamant about the kickstarter being a rulebook kickstarter only, with no miniatures component.
Our intention was to have a successful kickstarter and then leverage that into a kickstarter for a new starter set using plastic models to reduce to cost of entry for players into Heavy Gear by a factor. having reviewed our feedback on this concept we have now concluded that the goal of the kickstarter may have to modified to raise the interest and exposure of Heavy Gear in a kickstarter campaign.

Responding to feedback:
As we have read from the initial feedback from our kickstarter announcement on facebook and from here on the forums the concept of a book is not driving player imaginations wild.
Realigning the kickstarter's goals from a book to a Starter set with plastic figures, basic materials for playing (dice, tokens, card terrain, minimized rulebook with limited models listed) would mean pushing back the planned production of a core rule book, possibly for a year, possibly longer. The Online Beta PDF would continue to be the defacto organized play rules with printings of the rules in paper being available only at limited times. Ideally this would be supplemented by a living rule book on a dedicated App platform or a website.

Target product:
All the options we are considering vis a vis a miniatures kickstarter would consist of a starter set. The goal would be to create a high value set that would provide an easy point of entry to the game for a new player. Established players would benefit from this influx of new players and could access new poss for classic models.

Goals:
As the poll indicates there are several options regarding the composition of a starter set.
our goal would be a set with a minimum of two units a side, either Gears vs Gears, or Gears vs light hovertanks with infantry (CEF) with a target of 20-30 models not including terrain.
Our target price point would be a MSRP of $60-80 USD.
The model count could vary but There would likely be no more than 5-7 different models in the set (though some variety in poses, or parts for assembly). Keeping the model count low would allow us to use some already existing 3D files to be used thus getting the molds cut sooner and considerably shorten the time between closing the kickstarter and shipping out completed starter set rewards to players..

Diligence:
Because we believe in covering all the angles we have already completed some basic due diligence regarding the costs associated with creating a new starter set for Heavy Gear. Regardless of the final form and contents of a kickstarter campaign we believe it would be feasible to complete either a starter set project or a book project before Gencon 2015 (Rewards shipping early June 2015). Dream pod 9 has almost 20 years experience bringing products to market.

Thank you for your responses and enthusiasm! If we take the plunge and commit to a miniatures kickstarter I am sure it would be a success thanks to our fans.
The poll will cease to be effective on the 15th of September. After that time a decision will have to be made regarding the kickstarter so that preparations can begin. We aim to make this process transparent and receptive to backer ideas and feedback so let us know what you think by responding to this thread, completing the short poll, and leaving a message with your feedback."


Since the time of that post, it became clear that the Beta would not adequately be made ready for both existing fans or for any new fan by the time period suggested.

Dave and Robert both have been open about that fact, and as a result of that, they opted instead to do a single quickstart ruleset with the modified Beta rules when those rules have been finalized. Since the intended shipping date of this KS has been pushed back to November of 2015 (instead of the previously mentioned Gencon 2015), that gives many new players the opportunity to step up and affect change in the game by asking questions on the Beta development forums and also by posting their findings when they have.

Here is what one Pledger had to say on the comments recently:

"Gotta say, I'm impressed with how this campaign has been run, so far. The Pod has been very responsive to questions and feedback from backers - the home page keeps getting better organized and more attractive with the addition of graphics and background info. Shifting the stretch goals to maximize the value of the starter box was a very good idea. The stretch goals themselves were well thought out, and the time frame achievable. I commend the Pod for committing to having the models produced in North America. The comments have been a breath of fresh air as well. Minimal complaining, and many helpful posts and links provided to acclimate backers unfamiliar with the rules or setting. The overall atmosphere is very positive. Kudos to all."

So now you know that we as a community, and Dave and Robert in the company, have been addressing returning fans as well as newer individuals who haven't seen Heavy Gear.

I invite new individuals to Pledge and ask any questions they might have in the Kickstarter comments. Or, feel free to join my Facebook Group over at Terra Nova DMZ - Heavy Gear Universe Fans. We have members across the U.S., Australia, Canada, and Spain, to name a couple, and players, be they old fans or newcomers, are more than welcome to ask whatever questions they might have.

Edit:

I changed significantly more than just the dice mechanics - but I think it's correct to say that the Beta is a refinement of ideas expressed in Blitz and L&L rather than a 'new ruleset'. What substantially changed was how you roll dice - but most other concepts remain close to where they were in Blitz. There are differences, sure - but things like activation remain the same, the general premises of weapons and how you do damage remains mostly the same, etc. Changes in how the math is expressed doesn't imply changes in the core of the game, which I think is where frozenwastes is coming from. This is one of those things where what your definition of a 'new ruleset' is will determine if you think the Beta is a new ruleset, or not.

I see. Thank you for correcting my previous statements Ice. Also thank you for explaining where frozenwastes is coming from. But I fail to see how the core of the game needs changing.

 frozenwastes wrote:

I didn't say they were the only thing. I said they were the cool thing. They're iconic to the setting. They're even eponymous. So if you're going to relaunch the game, then focusing on them would be smart. They take centre stage in this KS, for example. I mentioned them as the basis for a true relaunch because when it comes to HG, they are what makes it immediately recognizable and asking what goes on when gears fight gears can be the basis for game design from scratch.

Very well said. Historically this has been one of the major disconnects between fans of the the RPG and fans of the Wargame. IMO the market is by and large interested in the Giant Stompy Robots, and the combined arms is a nice addition. So designing the game to feature the GSRs makes sense. However, the background places them in a strange place where they are essentially disposable IFVs. You can make both of those stresses work; but it's natural to swing too far to one side or the other and each person's perspective decides if it's too much a change or not. Warboss was very good about reinforcing this point during pre-Alpha and I owe him quite a bit of gratitude for the sanity checks during that time.

 IceRaptor wrote:

I changed significantly more than just the dice mechanics - but I think it's correct to say that the Beta is a refinement of ideas expressed in Blitz and L&L rather than a 'new ruleset'. What substantially changed was how you roll dice - but most other concepts remain close to where they were in Blitz. There are differences, sure - but things like activation remain the same, the general premises of weapons and how you do damage remains mostly the same, etc. Changes in how the math is expressed doesn't imply changes in the core of the game, which I think is where frozenwastes is coming from. This is one of those things where what your definition of a 'new ruleset' is will determine if you think the Beta is a new ruleset, or not.

I actually like the new dice mechanic. I think it's relatively quick and gives a nice answer to "did you succeed and how well?". For me the issue comes with the overall approach of trying to take a technical game with lots of separate elements/subsystems and try to force it into being fast play. I love games with lots of technical elements. I play Battletech and even have no issues with Federation Commander/Star Fleet Battles. I like some fast play games too (Song of Blades & Heroes, Dux Bellorum, DBA, etc.,). I just think the problems with the beta are from tweaking existing frameworks rather than starting with the design goals and designing from scratch to accomplish them.

When you're revising or making a new edition of a game that's not growing, you're caught between a rock and a hard place. Either you design to appeal to existing customers and likely continue to decline, or take a huge, huge risk and design from scratch. I know I'm really hard on the Blitz approach to Heavy Gear and have criticized DP9's current approach to development/testing rather strongly, but I just don't see how doing more of the same is going to produce different results.

The current zeitgeist at DP9 appears to be the same as at GW. Models matter and rules are there to sell them. So the rules just need to be an idea to get people buying miniatures. That's the feeling I'm getting and I'm guessing people who have contributed to the alpha, beta and other testing in the past have felt obstructed by the company's design culture.

 frozenwastes wrote:

For me the issue comes with the overall approach of trying to take a technical game with lots of separate elements/subsystems and try to force it into being fast play.

These systems I think you're referring (EW, Command, Support, etc) were torn down from their prior incarnations and then rebuilt to specific design ideals. The approach pre-Alpha was to create the kitchen sink and refine backwards, until you had a streamlined product that could meet the playtime to model ratio desired. We threw everything together and intended to refine or remove pieces until what you had enough tactics to make the game interesting to play at medium model counts (8-12 per side) and not completely deadlocking at higher counts (20+ per side). As you've pointed out the goal of the edition was supposed to be to make the mechanics easier, not to add or remove functionality from the game. Which is why I agreed it's essentially another edition, rather than a 'new ruleset'.

It looks like the Beta retained many more elements from the pre-Alpha than I would have expected personally - but there may be a rationale behind keeping all of that complexity that I'm not aware of. I know they are actively talking about simplifying EW right now on the main forums, which I think is a good sign that the Beta is mutable enough to be more of an 'Alpha' than a 'finished product'. With additional refinements they can probably reach the original goals of making everything simpler to play without losing all of the rich options from the setting. The plan for the rulebook I think is for it to be updated frequently, but I don't know if that will cover core systems or not. I'm reserving judgement for a few months after the kickstarter to see if they continue this forward momentum or not.

 frozenwastes wrote:

When you're revising or making a new edition of a game that's not growing, you're caught between a rock and a hard place. Either you design to appeal to existing customers and likely continue to decline, or take a huge, huge risk and design from scratch.

It's more a spectrum than a binary decision, but yes - you have to decide how much you're going to change to appeal to new players and how much you retain to keep existing players. I know for a fact that they lost players because the multiplication of damage was dropped - but that other people were now interested in the system because you didn't have to figure out what (19 * 4) /13 was to calculate damage. There are many reasons (that I won't articulate here) that a middle of the road approach was taken, and in the end the market will decide if that was a good choice or not.