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 notprop wrote:
Would I advise anyone to play GW games, sure. I've had fun playing them for nearly 30 years.

I begun playing 1st ed 40k and 3rd ed WHFB and never found them to be complex by the standards of wargaming and ingrasped them well enough as an 11 year old. Both systems are much more simplified now so adults really shouldn't struggle with them. Of course if you are used to 2 sides of a pamphlet board games they could appear more complex so YMMV.

The second point as to huge armies also doesn't ring true to me. I am a firm believer that 40k is best at 1000-1500 points. Why people play bigger forces on a 6' table is beyond me. Smallish forces and max terrain is where 40k is at. Of course over time you will build up bigger armies and want to use them but that's not really a consideration for a newbie.

I've not played the latest WHFB edition but it is ever so popular here with many tournaments almost all of which use the Swedish comp system. I mention this as it restricts the seeming dominence of large units and other toys. Also I see many experienced and regular WHFB players at my club playing 1200, 1500 and 1800 point so again huge armies are no necessity.

Finally I would direct you to Necromunda and Mordheim, all the flavour of the main systems with added elements like experience without model count. These rules can be picked free at gaming.Yaktribe.org

Pretty much this. If I was going to recommend a GW game, it would be the ones they don't actually make any more; Necromunda, Mordheim(especially), Battlefleet Gothic, and GorkaMorka are all fantastic games with, for me, the perfect combination of scale, size of forces, background fluff, and aesthetic. They're balanced enough for casual play of the sort you'll experience as a beginner, and the imbalances they do have are manageable enough that you can solve them with a few easily-understood house rules once you have a handle on the system(whereas if you want a similar level of "competition-proof" play out of 40K you'll end up having to virtually rewrite the game - not an issue for me as I'm not even remotely arsed with competitive play, but it is what it is). The fact almost all the rules are available free online(legitimately) is a bonus as well.

notprop also has the way of things on the size of 40K games - 1500 points is the sweet spot, allowing you enough points to really emphasise and explore a theme or style of play, without resulting in an army so huge that every game amounts to both sides lining up and advancing towards each other across Planet Bowlingball. Of course with the way GW makes everything cheaper(in points, not money) with every codex/edition change, that number might have to go down soon.

Off the top of my head I can think of one game that has come out and explicitly stated its based around the notion of competitive, higher-level play, and that's WM/H. Dozens of other games provide tournament fit rules without the intention of doing so, for one simple reason.

A balanced, well written game is both viable as a tournament level game, and as a super casual, ultra narrative, campaign centric game.

Oddly enough, a poorly written game with ambiguity, rules bloat, lack of balance, and a general tedious-ness in its mechanics doesn't cater to any of that well. In fact, I'd argue many people are working against the game if they're trying to do, well, anything.

You can have plenty of fun with 40k, don't get me wrong, but doing some basic balancing and re-writing would be incredibly beneficial for all parties. Which is exactly why I don't buy this nonsense about the game not being for certain people or play styles. That's just it, its not good for anything. Literally the only thing 40k does better than any other system is providing existing rules for 40k models, which isn't even true anymore with community projects to adapt other rules for the 40k universe.

While complaining may not directly impact anything at GW in particular, the community responds and we have things like a petition with close to 10k signatures last I checked. Whether or not GW will take notice is unknown, but it shows that many people aren't buying anymore, or at least buying less. This does impact GW, as when the pretty black numbers on their reports turn into angry red numbers, they might have to re-think a few things.

Further, other companies listen to this sort of feedback and change their products based on information from the community. GW is the exception.

As for your definition of casual, I fit all those categories, except I also want a rulebook that feels like someone read through it twice and maybe rolled some dice to see how it worked before publishing it. Especially for the cost.

I care very much about settings, aesthetics, fluff, models and the ever ambiguous 'feel'. Really, I do. I've spent hours writing fluff for 40k things and have immersed myself in the lore. None of the precludes me from looking at 40k and scratching my head thinking it could be a lot better.

At the end of the day, I can't even say 40k is a good tool for creating battles in the 40k universe. The mechanics, rules, and balance all run counter to much of what's in the fluff or what you'd expect to find reasonable. That's a problem.

Its not about taking anything too seriously, its simply about asking for a quality product for a universe and game we've all invested lots of time, money, and effort and care about quite a bit.

Heck, some of the rules work against the fluff, so it even fails as a "narrative" game.

Another option, if you really like the fluff and models from Warhammer Fantasy is to use them with Kings of War.

I know one person that has a pretty decent (High) Elf army for Kings of War that he made using several of the starter boxes for the latest edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle - keeping the elves and selling off the skaven, except for some that he kept for playing WHFRP.

If you already have the fluff and the models then Kings of War is a pretty safe experiment - the main rules and the army lists are FREE.

Kings of War is not as customizable as Warhammer - but the rules are a lot more consistent and balanced.

I was the person that painted the models for him - and even I have to admit that the High Elves that come in the box are pretty good - thought the skaven are pretty bad... fur isn't triangular!

The Auld Grump

If you have no store and no community in your area I'd suggest starting with 2 player starter sets for several games, WarmaHordes, Infinity, Flames of War or Bolt Action, and Dystopian Wars or Firestorm Armada would be my first choices.

You need to find some people, get them to try some games and then talk them into buying in.

GW starter sets are awful for that and buy in will scare too many away.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Wow. Your list is pretty close to mine, except I don't live in Brazil and I won't allow myself to spend more than $60/month on the hobby.

I use movement trays with one or two models on it instead of twenty when I've played fantasy. That way, I can enjoy the game immediately while building the army up slowly.

You might also want to look into Kings Of War from Mantic Games. Very similar to Warhammer Fantasy with the big difference being that the units are based on the tray, and not the individual models themselves. The models are a wee bit smaller than Warhammer Fantasy, but they are priced quite competitively. I myself bought their big bundled Undead army to use for Warhammer Fantasy, but it works well for both games. They have both printed and freely downloadleable rules.

I'm not trying to recruit for Mantic, your comment about using a few models per tray just made me think of it.

GW games are untouchably the best! If you want a tight ruleset with good balanced armies, go with their Lord of the Rings line.

 Pyeatt wrote:
GW games are untouchably the best! If you want a tight ruleset with good balanced armies, go with their Lord of the Rings line.

And the best way by far to do this is to get books used (maybe off eBay or a used book website) and use historicals for all the armies that they are appropriate for. You can often get metal historicals for less money than GW plastics.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=lord+of+the+rings+strategy+battle+game&sts=t&x=0&y=0

Two Towers rulebook for $6.33 after shipping? Sounds good to me. You can get so much gaming fun out of that one book and a handful of miniatures.

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Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wanted to add something:

The best approach for any beginner is to be invited into existing games that are going on. A direct invitation into the hobby as it is actually happening.

So if anyone is actually looking to engage with beginners in the hobby of miniature wargaming, get two small forces painted, get the terrain ready, make the best play aids you can to make the game work better and host the game for the new person.

If they are interested in painting, invite them to do that. There are nice cheap miniatures on the market these days that paint up great. Reaper Bones are great "painting class fodder" for example.

And then don't ask for too much of an up front investment. A reasonable sized game with a moderate model count is ideal.

Basically do everything GW used to do during the 90s when they grew from a UK based importer of D&D into an international miniatures company.

Warhammer 40k no longer fits this approach.

 Pyeatt wrote:
GW games are untouchably the best! If you want a tight ruleset with good balanced armies, go with their Lord of the Rings line.

That was probably true ten years ago.

Accurate up to the point where I certainly wouldn't touch GW games.

And what if you want a tight balanced ruleset, but don't want a fantasy game, or dislike LotR?

Pyeatt wrote:GW games are untouchably the best!

frozenwastes wrote:And the best way by far to do this is to get books used (maybe off eBay or a used book website) and use historicals for all the armies that they are appropriate for. You can often get metal historicals for less money than GW plastics.

So if anyone is actually looking to engage with beginners in the hobby of miniature wargaming, get two small forces painted, get the terrain ready, make the best play aids you can to make the game work better and host the game for the new person.

Yup. Me, I'm finally starting to scrape together some resources for LotR battles, but mostly ignoring the movie version and it's game spinoffs, and primarily using, as mentioned, Mayhem. (Which I am trying to recruit for. I think the polydice mechanic is very interesting and the game greatly rewards command, strategy, tactics and maneuver over tooling up your characters with the sword of crutchiness and the talisman of plusplus. And it's ten quid for the book with the basic game and the stronghold expansion. Less for the download.) I was going to go with 10mm for proper battles, but the GW LotR orcs and dwarves are pretty nice (fortunately a lot of those are littered all over ebay) and the explosion of luverly historicals, particularly cheap plastics, largely takes care of the humans. For instance, I'd like some dunlendings to go with my uruk-hai, but am I paying £4.10 for each, for mass battles? Am I fairy cakes. Some mussed-up vikings will do nicely.

So as Frozenwastes suggests, I'm trying to get small forces of uruk-hai and rohirrim built up for demo games. After that, let's see where it goes.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
GW games are untouchably the best! If you want a tight ruleset with good balanced armies, go with their Lord of the Rings line.

And the best way by far to do this is to get books used (maybe off eBay or a used book website) and use historicals for all the armies that they are appropriate for. You can often get metal historicals for less money than GW plastics.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=lord+of+the+rings+strategy+battle+game&sts=t&x=0&y=0

Two Towers rulebook for $6.33 after shipping? Sounds good to me. You can get so much gaming fun out of that one book and a handful of miniatures.

Thanks for the heads up, I've been looking to pick these up for a while though, the deal is actually even better. I found it on that site from a couple of different dealers for $3.50 with free shipping!
I just got all three books (one from each movie) and a 2 towers compilation for less than $15 shipped!

Vermis wrote:but the GW LotR orcs and dwarves are pretty nice (fortunately a lot of those are littered all over ebay) and the explosion of luverly historicals, particularly cheap plastics, largely takes care of the humans. For instance, I'd like some dunlendings to go with my uruk-hai, but am I paying £4.10 for each, for mass battles? Am I fairy cakes. Some mussed-up vikings will do nicely.

So as Frozenwastes suggests, I'm trying to get small forces of uruk-hai and rohirrim built up for demo games. After that, let's see where it goes.

I think the social aspect of the hobby is often more important than the rules or miniatures you choose-- up until the point that the miniatures or rules create some sort of barrier. What really ended LOTR locally was when the miniature boxes got halved in terms of figure count for almost the same money. People were buying and painting and playing here and there and then boom-- dead. The Hobbit came and went and none of the people who used to be regular LOTR people seemed interested.

If you can lower barriers and let the social fun part of the hobby shine through, it's a lot better for beginners that demanding a huge cash payment in advance.

 Eilif wrote:

Thanks for the heads up, I've been looking to pick these up for a while though, the deal is actually even better. I found it on that site from a couple of different dealers for $3.50 with free shipping!
I just got all three books (one from each movie) and a 2 towers compilation for less than $15 shipped!

Wow. Shipping to Canada is usually a bit more, but the LOTR stuff was so popular back in the day that the used book stores seem chock full of copies. If you don't care about the new Hobbit movie specific stuff (and really, who does?), it's way, way better to get them used that pay $100 ($85 USD) for the Hobbit hardcover.

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 frozenwastes wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

Thanks for the heads up, I've been looking to pick these up for a while though, the deal is actually even better. I found it on that site from a couple of different dealers for $3.50 with free shipping!
I just got all three books (one from each movie) and a 2 towers compilation for less than $15 shipped!

Wow. Shipping to Canada is usually a bit more, but the LOTR stuff was so popular back in the day that the used book stores seem chock full of copies. If you don't care about the new Hobbit movie specific stuff (and really, who does?), it's way, way better to get them used that pay $100 ($85 USD) for the Hobbit hardcover.

---

Yeah, the prices for new Hobbit stuff is a non-starter for me. I picked up the original metal Fellowship boxed set last month for a song and that got me thinking about getting the rules and maybe running it from time to time. $15 is about right for a time-to-time game rules, something I may pick up used figs for now and then and might bring out when my son is older. $85 is just not going to happen.

To answer the question "Would you advise a beginner to start any GW game?" I would say:

Of the currently sold games, only LOTR and only if you go 100% second hand, discount bins and 3rd party miniatures. And don't play overly large games where you just fight as they break down into an exercise of dwindling down to just a few key models. So all you're doing is playing a game to find out what models you'll have in your army when the actual game that matters finally starts. The scenarios they published at the time of the first three movies are all mostly functional and fun. And the big games in those tend to be really heavy on the scenario elements rather than just being meeting engagements (though it has been a while).

Of the out of print games, yes. You can find rules for pretty much all of them with a search for the name of the game and PDF. And in many cases other companies have really stepped up in terms of making appropriate models. I think there's currently a better selection of stuff good for Epic:Armageddon than when GW was actually supporting it. Same goes for Bloodbowl, Warhammer Quest type games, Necromunda, GorkaMorka, etc.,.

Then again, if you look at how I'd recommend approaching LOTR, it's pretty much the same as how I'd recommend approaching Bloodbowl.

To answer your question, no, I wouldn't advise any gamer that cares about playing a good game, beginner or not, to start a GW game.

It is about going into it with eyes wide open. I would make sure the person knows something of the history of the game 40k and the poor rules (from edition to edition so many things are screwed up and many dexes poorly written and not playtested). The models are usually of good quality but as from your post we are talking about the game itself.

I would warn a gamer that 40k is far too expensive and that their money would be better spent elsewhere. The company does not care about customers (that you just spent hundreds of dollars on their product) and often bring out new rules that make many units/wargear useless forcing you to rebuild or buy other models (examples to numerous to mention). GW could easily correct many problems with the dexes or rules but does not. Often rules for new models are poorly done - you'd think that GW would want a new kit to have decent rules but GW is hit and miss.

So if the player cares about a quality game and a company that cares about the quality of the game and that its customers have spent lots of money (more than they should since the quality isn't there for the cost) they should steer clear of anything GW.

The sooner this company disappears the better - even for 40k.

I would not recommend starting ANY game unless you have people to play it with. Find out who will play what with you and then play that game.

If you have 250USD of discretionary money to spend on a game then you have enough money to play Warhammer or any other miniature game you choose. So it comes down to what you enjoy the most and what your friends will play with you.

GW makes the side items cost too much. When you need a hundred bucks in books before you can really do anything, and then you throw on the models too, it gets hard to grab anyone's interest.

For comparison, X-Wing is incredibly easy to get people into. Simple and tight rules system (my friend plays with his 9 year old son), models that while not exactly cheap, come in cheap bite sized portions.

I'm not saying GW needs to try and copy x-wing, but they should consider the rules and codexes a loss leader, not a profit area. but then they're not a games company more, they're a "collectible model" company.

There was a swap meet at a local hobby shop (East coast of USA, near DC). About 40% of what was for sale was 40k. Assembled (some painted) Land Raiders for $15, painted armies ranging from $75 to $500, unpainted or badly painted for a song. It was quite revealing. You could have your choice, Elves, Marines, Guard, Orks, didn't matter. The do one of these every few months, the last one had similar selections and prices.

Kajamo

Kajamo wrote:
There was a swap meet at a local hobby shop (East coast of USA, near DC). About 40% of what was for sale was 40k. Assembled (some painted) Land Raiders for $15, painted armies ranging from $75 to $500, unpainted or badly painted for a song. It was quite revealing. You could have your choice, Elves, Marines, Guard, Orks, didn't matter. The do one of these every few months, the last one had similar selections and prices.

Kajamo

My local store just had a swap meet as well (Near Richmond, same place?) And yes, that's about how it was. Lots of people selling 40k stuff that nobody wanted. One guy was selling WM/H stuff, but he sold all the stuff I wanted before I even got there. :(

Keraun0s wrote:

I'm not that big into converting or proxying...Is kinda silly, but I don't think I' would like to play like this:

"Here this elf lord on a dragon, but here he represents an vampire atop an elephant. And this spearmen(elves) are not carrying spears, they got bows. And ignore the shields. on those 3 there. This four beside them have shields, but also have the banner of a thousand grapes, and do not possess the talisman of crying out loud...

......

Hell, this is how 40K and WHF feel like to me.

There are different ways to "proxy". I don't play WHFB anymore, but now I play Kings of War, and proxy models that "fit" into my forces - because I like the models. For example, Ogres (in KoW) can have "red goblins" mounted on wolves. I don't want goblins in my Ogre army, so instead I use these as my proxies - I feel that my Ogres would be more than happy to have these wolves (without goblins) as their pets.

Having said that, I don't go the "these guys with swords actually have spears" route. I do rule of cool and "the official model for this shiznit looks awful, so I'm going to proxy this awesome model in instead"

 MWHistorian wrote:

Kajamo wrote:
There was a swap meet at a local hobby shop (East coast of USA, near DC). About 40% of what was for sale was 40k. Assembled (some painted) Land Raiders for $15, painted armies ranging from $75 to $500, unpainted or badly painted for a song. It was quite revealing. You could have your choice, Elves, Marines, Guard, Orks, didn't matter. The do one of these every few months, the last one had similar selections and prices.

Kajamo

My local store just had a swap meet as well (Near Richmond, same place?) And yes, that's about how it was. Lots of people selling 40k stuff that nobody wanted. One guy was selling WM/H stuff, but he sold all the stuff I wanted before I even got there. :(

At the local shows here the demand for used gw stuff has plummeted too. Used to get snapped up at 60% rrp but now barely shifts unless it's under half that. It's not even a supply/demand thing as there's less of it available. It all points to a huge drop in interest in the last 2 years.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I wouldn't advise someone to start a GW game unless they...

1. Like the background and models far more than other background and models on the market.

2. Have an established gaming group that already plays GW games and doesn't want to start a new system.

3. You really want to play large armies in a 28mm sci fi squad based games (opposed to skirmish games, smaller scales than 28mm, etc)

4. Some combination of the above.

I would be hesitant to start The Hobbit simply because I don't think GW are going to be supporting it long term. If you love the models and want to paint them, go for it, but I'd be very concerned that GW will pull the rug from under me.

As far as WHFB vs 40k... I prefer the rules for WHFB, I do tend to prefer 40k armies though, but rules wise I prefer WHFB. But it is all subjective. I find WHFB less unbalanced and less dependent on list building (not that it's not important, just less so than 40k).

Why is finecast so hated? Because the models often have missing details, bubbles which need to be filled, flash and nodules in places that are hard to remove, parts that are warped and need to be unwarped with hot water, the material is brittle when cool but when it heats up it may warp again, and it's really fething expensive.

Also above 35 degrees C Finecast melts period, had some finecast mods that went from figures to blobs after on fine hot day that got to 46.7 C, yet my plastic and metal mods survived intact. Finecast was designed for Britain and not Australia summers.

 Achaylus72 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I wouldn't advise someone to start a GW game unless they...

1. Like the background and models far more than other background and models on the market.

2. Have an established gaming group that already plays GW games and doesn't want to start a new system.

3. You really want to play large armies in a 28mm sci fi squad based games (opposed to skirmish games, smaller scales than 28mm, etc)

4. Some combination of the above.

I would be hesitant to start The Hobbit simply because I don't think GW are going to be supporting it long term. If you love the models and want to paint them, go for it, but I'd be very concerned that GW will pull the rug from under me.

As far as WHFB vs 40k... I prefer the rules for WHFB, I do tend to prefer 40k armies though, but rules wise I prefer WHFB. But it is all subjective. I find WHFB less unbalanced and less dependent on list building (not that it's not important, just less so than 40k).

Why is finecast so hated? Because the models often have missing details, bubbles which need to be filled, flash and nodules in places that are hard to remove, parts that are warped and need to be unwarped with hot water, the material is brittle when cool but when it heats up it may warp again, and it's really fething expensive.

Also above 35 degrees C Finecast melts period, had some finecast mods that went from figures to blobs after on fine hot day that got to 46.7 C, yet my plastic and metal mods survived intact. Finecast was designed for Britain and not Australia summers.

I've really wanted to leave finecast in my car on a hot day for a while now, shame the cheapest of it is still like $30 au.

Herzlos wrote:

 Acephale wrote:
On the other hand, the models are really top-notch design-wise and the games they're used in are fun in their own way - most of the people complaining about the rules are people who want these games to be something they're not (i.e. balanced and strategically competitive systems designed for tournament play).

I don't want a tournament play game. I just want a game that isn't a chore to follow and at least pretends to be balanced. Balanced well written rules are better for everyone!

With a million and one special rules, some of which contradict each other, more still that are unclear in their wording, the game will be a chore to follow, especially at first. The game does not pretend or even remotely attempt to be balanced. The words "balanced, well written rules" and "GW" do not belong in the same sentence unless it also includes "will never happen"...

I used to try and sell GW's games to people interested within the hobby. Used to.

Frankly given the current state of things with GW and the crap quality/massive prices I would not advise them unless you are really into the fluff or have no other options.

Warmachine is far better. For the price of a GW army I can have 3-4 Warmahordes armies at tournament level. The rules are nice and concise and the action is quick and easy.

MoO

Due to Mordheim, I have a crapton of fantasy models to use for RPGs that look a million times better than the WOTC/Wizkids D&D models. I also have a much better understanding of WHFB due to using the system.

New gamers are typically eager to try the gateway drug before developing the full habit. GW would be recommendable for n00bs if they had gateway games.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Warmachine is far better. For the price of a GW army I can have 3-4 Warmahordes armies at tournament level. The rules are nice and concise and the action is quick and easy.
MoO

Such a fantastic and slick system. The lower (but not LOW) model count is nice too. I learned the basics of WM at GenCon in one demo game, and I still scratch my head at some of the basics for 40k.

For narrative gamers, I would read this blog post about the subject: http://ideaswithoutend.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/forging-the-narrative-in-wargaming/

 MWHistorian wrote:
Heck, some of the rules work against the fluff, so it even fails as a "narrative" game.

Also this.

Since i play at a GW store. I would encourage people to start and play. but by advising they read the books and fluff to hookem first.

 Azazelx wrote:


There are different ways to "proxy". I don't play WHFB anymore, but now I play Kings of War, and proxy models that "fit" into my forces - because I like the models. For example, Ogres (in KoW) can have "red goblins" mounted on wolves. I don't want goblins in my Ogre army, so instead I use these as my proxies - I feel that my Ogres would be more than happy to have these wolves (without goblins) as their pets.

Having said that, I don't go the "these guys with swords actually have spears" route. I do rule of cool and "the official model for this shiznit looks awful, so I'm going to proxy this awesome model in instead"

That speaks to the heart of one of the best things about KoW. It's streamlined nature makes proxying easy and not confusing. KoW isn't bogged down by stats for what weapon a certain character or unit is carrying. So it's easy to proxy-in the figs you want to play and not worry too much about what the company would suggest you play.

Example, I wanted to field a unit of beastmen. There' isn't an entry for beastmen, but there is one for "Abbysal Bezerkers". Voila! My beastmen are now in play!