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**Rusty Trombone**

Unfortunately for BTP, we are defined by how we handle adversity, not how we handle...whatever the antonym of adversity is.

In the end, this transparent(and generously offered) glimpse at a business dealing with BTP can at best only offer one good mark on their resume. Too bad it takes (way)more than one to diminish the black eye that Shawn has given his company.

**Kanluwen**

M0ff3l wrote:

This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread.

Like they didn't already know about this thread?

When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good.

If, not when, BTP delivers a really good job.

And yeah, people will say that. Because of late there has been very little positive to say about BTP.

I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.

Maybe not when it initially started but as mentioned this seems to be the trend now. They don't give a crap about quality they care about turnaround.

**Gullinbursti**

I'd suspect, for the next few months, that BTP will do their utmost to do their best on every miniature they send out. There is enough negative press currently that if I was in the same position, I'd do it to try and get some positive press going. However, when I compare even their best work to Jolly Roger Studios, Den of Imagination, Awaken Realms, it still isn't going to be the same jaw dropping gorgeousness. Also, as previously mentioned, barring maybe a vampire counts army, Nurgle is one of the easiest to paint armies in GW's range. I'm not wishing ill on the army (though I'd have given BTP an FU on $60 for two havoc launchers), I'd just guess that the next few months will be a good time to have an order in with BTP.

**TheAuldGrump**

winterdyne wrote:
calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?

And you (and people like you) are the reason that companies like BTP exist providing surprisingly low standards of work. A simple check of minimum wage against the quoted fee gives you how many hours you're paying for?
Why is it insane? You think perhaps painters don't need to eat, pay rent, pay for the paint, pay for their kids clothing? I shake my head sadly at you, sir.

M0ff3l, I would not bother notifying BTP. As you say, it will skew the result - though I would think the result will now be skewed anyway - BTP are under pressure to show they can deliver the goods, so to speak.

This said, I'm reasonably confident that you will (after a longer than expected turnaround) get a reasonable low-end tabletop finish on the bulk of your stuff. There's simply no way it can be done in a week, but there's nothing to say a service can't go over and beyond what they've been paid to do (I do it all the time, much to the chagrin on my wife). I certainly think they can hit what they class as level 3 easily enough (but then so can most people given a little bit of practice).

What will be more interesting is the standard of finish on the higher level stuff you wanted - I'd classify that (level 5 as described) as a high-end tabletop skirmish squad (or elite infantry), which is a touch over my basic - boiling down to more cleanup on any rough blends or transitions, which on rank and file are not particularly noticeable. Now for that level I start at around £35 ($60 ish) per model, in batches of 5 which take around 3 working days. Singles I start at around £65 ($115 ish) and produce a similar result, but concentrate on the individual model more taking up to a full working day each. My prices include assembly and basing - I generally do not accept pre-assembled work - it can make life more difficult.

My result is something like:

Multi-tone flesh (eyes, brows if suitable, lips, teeth, cheek blush, stubble). At least 3 levels of colour on major colours, plus tight edges. Freehand where needed. No slips, no screwups. It's not competitive, but it's a solid, shove-it-in-yer-cabinet paintjob. Around a 50-50 chance (based on the few squads I've entered over the years) of Golden Demon finalist, but no chance of top 3. I only charge additional amounts for freehand if it's something silly or overly complex - a mural on the top of a Rhino for example. Most logos or emblems are included in the basic cost.

You've paid between a third and half the cost. I'd say you'll get 2 1/2 - 3 hours on the two marine size models and maybe 4 hours on Typhus. You are going to get VERY rushed work - the standard will not match.

I think at the higher end BTP are out of their depth and have been for some time from what I've seen them produce. If they're charging normally what they've charged you I can see why.

People always think that the price of having somebody else paint their minis is high - and most times what the price really means is that the artists are getting paid far less per hour, for skilled work, than the customer would be willing to work for.

I like painting - I get twitchy if I haven't painted in a while.

For a time I made a substantial part of my income from painting miniatures.

Now, I only take commissions from people that I know, and paint mostly for myself. (My girlfriend gave me a talking to... time no longer spent painting for others is now spent either painting for us or just doing things together.)

Not just miniatures painting, either - the number of times I have heard artists kvetching about people that aren't even willing to pay them minimum wage for their work....

*EDIT* Heck, GW used to pay the 'Eavy Metal team minimum wage....

The Auld Grump

**winterdyne**

It's *still* a pretty damn poor salary, but until artists (as a whole) start to stand up for themselves that sort of treatment will continue.

**Ustrello**

winterdyne wrote:
It's *still* a pretty damn poor salary, but until artists (as a whole) start to stand up for themselves that sort of treatment will continue.

I've only done one commission piece, a mercs squad, the pay does suck. But at the same time I did enjoy doing it.

**frozenwastes**

M0ff3l wrote:This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.

If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.

**Ustrello**

frozenwastes wrote:
M0ff3l wrote:This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.

If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.

Being right on the internet to strangers is the most important thing

**M0ff3l**

frozenwastes wrote:
M0ff3l wrote:This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.

If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.

Im still not entirely convinced that BTP would care enough about this that they would actually dedicate more time/effort into this project.

**Ustrello**

M0ff3l wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
M0ff3l wrote:This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.

If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.

Im still not entirely convinced that BTP would care enough about this that they would actually dedicate more time/effort into this project.

This is shawn we are talking about, never underestimate stupid.

**Anfauglir**

frozenwastes wrote:
If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.

There is no choice. OP's quest for an honest, fair, transparent, "average" BTP experience is an exercise in futility at this point. The fallout of Movie Mayhem's (aka tenebre) video review, the backlash, subsequent MWG's involvement and further backlash, means that even if BTP were completely ignorant of M0ff3l's intentions and/or these Dakkadakka threads, the nock-on effect of all this for BTP's current/near future commissions will ensure a skewed result.

**swampyturtle**

I hope this army goes well and I will be watching. Honestly I love the conversion work and the green stuffing job. You did a wonderful job on getting it all prepared.

My entire tanith army was a job that took me 4 years to finish to playable standard (No camo on cloaks or bases done yet) but i'll get there eventually. Its certainly no where near Winterdyes standards but i'm happy with it. If you feel your hard earned money is better off spent on BTP that's your prerogative.

I do hope it turns out well. Still a little confused why you wouldn't have used a European painter but i send you my best wishes on how this turns out.

example of my work over 4 years for myself.

**plastictrees**

Good on you for starting this.
If you are comfortable continuing the thread I don't think you can really worry about how people interpret the results. You could equally claim to be satisfied by any results BTP achieved. All you can do is present the facts as you see them, which, I believe is what tenebre has done.

Can you tell us WHY you chose BTP in the first place? Did you shop around? Was their a specific project they had done that caught your eye? Did you look at European options?

**M0ff3l**

plastictrees wrote:
Good on you for starting this.
If you are comfortable continuing the thread I don't think you can really worry about how people interpret the results. You could equally claim to be satisfied by any results BTP achieved. All you can do is present the facts as you see them, which, I believe is what tenebre has done.

Can you tell us WHY you chose BTP in the first place? Did you shop around? Was their a specific project they had done that caught your eye? Did you look at European options?

I did look at a few other companies (also some in europe) because my first thought was just getting the Cypher model I put a lot of effort into painted on a high level. While looking for a company that had some nice results for single characters http://www.golempaintingstudio.co.uk/ caught my eye. I was still not sure about it and told a friend that I might want to get my Cypher painted by a company. He told me it would look weird having Cypher be painted display quality while the rest of my army was M0ff3l-Level paintjob

. So my I restarted my search for a company that could do my entire army + cypher and typhus in a higher level. Golem Painting Studio's prices were pretty high (pounds are crazy compared to dollars/euros) so I looked for some alternatives. Now I have been watching BTP videos on and off since before even starting the hobby, so getting a "BTP painted army" was always something I looked up to. Until ofcourse the Tenebre incident happened, which happened around the same time as my interest in getting my army painted.

During the thread about his chaos dwarves I felt like people were not giving BTP a fair shot. Yes what they did to Tenebres army is not level 4-6, its not even close. However when I saw BTPs vid of the army I thought it looked awesome (without knowing what the client actually wanted). Yes there was a lot of black primer, but it didnt look bad to me as a whole. So I started toying with the idea of just letting BTP doing my army and posting a blog about the experience, so that there was a "neutral" review of the entire process from the first quote to the final product on my doorstep.

I have been told about all these awesome polish and UK studios that do awesome work and are more in my area, but honestly the shipping doesnt cost that much and BTP has way more projects under their belt than any of these local studios.

**Anfauglir**

M0ff3l wrote:
I have been told about all these awesome polish and UK studios that do awesome work and are more in my area, but honestly the shipping doesnt cost that much and BTP has way more projects under their belt than any of these local studios.

But this, in itself, is not a criterion of value or any form of quality assurance. Quite the opposite, in fact, as you and MWG are keen to point out; "well obviously when you churn out as many commissions as BTP does, the odd one is sure to slip through the QC net". Okay, let's pretend that this is a valid, legitimate defence for what happened to tenebre for a moment... why still choose them? Making the choice on that factor alone makes exactly zero sense for any reasonable, rational-thinking paying customer. The choice should be quality over quantity. Every. Single. Time.

**M0ff3l**

Anfauglir wrote:
M0ff3l wrote:
I have been told about all these awesome polish and UK studios that do awesome work and are more in my area, but honestly the shipping doesnt cost that much and BTP has way more projects under their belt than any of these local studios.

But this, in itself, is not a criterion of value or any form of quality assurance. Quite the opposite, in fact, as you and MWG are keen to point out; "well obviously when you churn out as many commissions as BTP does, the odd one is sure to slip through the QC net". Okay, let's pretend that this is a valid, legitimate defence for what happened to tenebre for a moment... why still choose them? Making the choice on that factor alone makes exactly zero sense for any reasonable, rational-thinking paying customer. The choice should be quality over quantity. Every. Single. Time.

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.

**BrookM**

Shipping doesn't cost as much? Are you using PostNL or a different service for this?

**M0ff3l**

BrookM wrote:
Shipping doesn't cost as much? Are you using PostNL or a different service for this?

PostNL, insured for up to 500 euros, and it only costed 25 euros. (dimensions and weight of the package are in the OP). And BTP sending it to me is only 25$ so even cheaper.

**Anfauglir**

M0ff3l wrote:
What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus?

That's something else entirely, and should be the primary basis upon which your decision is made. You should choose the service with which you are most happy to pay for whatever quality they advertise as being able to deliver. The only real value volume would have with a service like this is the experience of the professional artists working on your minis, something that is void with BTP due to their staff turnover. They may have a lot more commissions under their belt, but that isn't directly proportional to the experience of the artist or artists that will work on your models.

It's your money, your models and your choice, of course. Personally I wouldn't go near BTP with so much as a Grot after everything I've seen and read, but hey. I genuinely wish you and your army the best of luck. The way I see it, worst case scenario you get the "average" BTP treatment - something which you are already entirely satisfied with, best case scenario you get the "super special premium customer care package" in light of recent rep damage. A win-win for you.

**plastictrees**

M0ff3l wrote:

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.

It sort of is...except that obviously none of these other studios have a 0 rating, and NONE of them have feedback of 'absolutely not what I ordered or paid for'.
The fact that it was reading tenebre's thread that prompted you to hire BTP is a testament to any publicity being good publicity I suppose. It also suggests that you just spend $800 in order to be contentious on the internet, which is a bit weird.

Honestly it sounds like you've set your expectations to near 0, so I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe you would be happy to field tenebre's CD army as painted by BTP, I'm guessing that you would be much less happy to field it had you paid $8,000-10,000 for it to be painted in a manner completely counter to your requests.

**conker249**

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.

May just be me, but I would trust a ebay seller with 10 sales and 100% feedback, than someone with 1000 and 80% feedback. especially when it comes to items not as described, items incomplete, ect

**M0ff3l**

plastictrees wrote:
M0ff3l wrote:

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.

It sort of is...except that obviously none of these other studios have a 0 rating, and NONE of them have feedback of 'absolutely not what I ordered or paid for'.
The fact that it was reading tenebre's thread that prompted you to hire BTP is a testament to any publicity being good publicity I suppose. It also suggests that you just spend $800 in order to be contentious on the internet, which is a bit weird.

Honestly it sounds like you've set your expectations to near 0, so I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe you would be happy to field tenebre's CD army as painted by BTP, I'm guessing that you would be much less happy to field it had you paid $8,000-10,000 for it to be painted in a manner completely counter to your requests.

As I said, I thought the army looked cool on BTPs vid, where none of the clients requests where known to me and I didnt even know what level the army was. Also I must have not made my post clear, I had the thought of getting a BTP army since I started the hobby. Now seemed the perfect time as I needed an army painted and BTP was getting a lot of bad rep for Tenebres project (which is deserved to a certain level). Tenebres project was a huge failure on BTPs end. there is no denying that. However BTP has been around for 8 years, so there must be some people who think they are good, as they have many returning customers.

And no I certainly dont have my expectations set to near 0, as I put a lot of time and effort into converting this army from mostly space marines I would like it to get a paintjob worthy of that effort. That is the exact reason Im not trusting myself with the paintjob...

conker249 wrote:

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.

May just be me, but I would trust a ebay seller with 10 sales and 100% feedback, than someone with 1000 and 80% feedback. especially when it comes to items not as described, items incomplete, ect

Even when you send them expensive models that you put a lot of effort in? Also I dont even know if BTP has 80% feedback, Its just that negative reviews usually shout louder, and people with positive experiences stay out of it.

**Rusty Trombone**

conker249 wrote:

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.

May just be me, but I would trust a ebay seller with 10 sales and 100% feedback, than someone with 1000 and 80% feedback. especially when it comes to items not as described, items incomplete, ect

Yes, me too. However, arguably the ten sales is too low to be a true indicator of sustainable performance. The 80% though is an immediate pass, regardless of sales count.

**AllSeeingSkink**

winterdyne wrote:
It's *still* a pretty damn poor salary, but until artists (as a whole) start to stand up for themselves that sort of treatment will continue.

I think the problem you'll always have, especially around forums like these where people largely play 40k and WHFB which require a large number of models, people will have sticker shock when you tell them how much it'll cost to paint a force. For most wargamers, it IS a large amount of money and most wargamers probably haven't timed how long it takes them personally to assemble and paint a model to have any idea how much it might cost before reading something like "$10,000 to paint an army".

People aren't trying to degrade artists so much as they don't even stop to think... wait... if I had to paint a 4000pt army with 200 models to a decent standard (maybe 3 hours per for assembly, priming and painting) that it would take them 3 months working full time to do. Most people don't even go to the point of realising it would take them 3 hours per model let alone taking the next step of figuring out it would take 3 months for the whole army so to pay someone to do it they would need to pay them one quarter of a yearly salary.

40k and WHFB is full of people who misjudged the time it takes to paint an army and have ended up with much smaller armies than they intended or armies that are only a quarter painted.

I think when it comes to skirmish games people might be a bit more understanding because the sticker shock isn't so bad with a smaller number of models and the cost of the models is often higher to begin anyway.

On a mostly unrelated note, what actually surprised me with your earlier post, it does seem like you don't actually paint much faster than me (you do... but I was expecting a huge gap like you'd paint twice as fast, it actually seems like a small gap to me). Most of what is in my gallery is assembled and painted in under 2 hours, that's my target for non-horde 40k or WHFB army, a lot of it is actually assembled and painted in under 1 hour (Hormagaunts and the like) as that's my target for horde armies. The one model in my gallery I did spend a comparable amount of time on is my Warboss, painted in ~5 hours (not sure how long it took to assemble) and while it doesn't look as good as your "high-end tabletop skirmish squad", the gap isn't as large as I thought it would be for a squad you probably spent similar time per model doing. If I'd spent a couple more hours on the Warboss I could have smoothed out a lot of the blends, but because I wanted him to look rough and ready from table top distances (to match the rest of my army) I decided to not bother using glazes to blend the transitions which definitely saved me a couple of hours.

**hotsauceman1**

You have several problems here
1: This is a case study, which are notoriously bad. If these end great, good for you, but it will prove nothing. Because there is a wealth of evidence against BTP. Like the tau outpost.
2: The quality was never really on trial, it was their inability to do damage control correctly. And admit they failed
3: you would need to send several armies of differing types to them. Why? Becase it can prove that they are able to do more then drybrush/wash.
4: your results are skewed no matter what, why? Your order comes off the heels of a fiasco, theyou will be painting their best.
5: you are doing what every researcher shold not be doing, showing a bias towards a certain result. You are clearly favoting btp here, clouding your judgement

**M0ff3l**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
You have several problems here
1: This is a case study, which are notoriously bad. If these end great, good for you, but it will prove nothing. Because there is a wealth of evidence against BTP. Like the tau outpost.
2: The quality was never really on trial, it was their inability to do damage control correctly. And admit they failed
3: you would need to send several armies of differing types to them. Why? Becase it can prove that they are able to do more then drybrush/wash.
4: your results are skewed no matter what, why? Your order comes off the heels of a fiasco, theyou will be painting their best.
5: you are doing what every researcher shold not be doing, showing a bias towards a certain result. You are clearly favoting btp here, clouding your judgement

I never said this was a research lol, I just said it was a review of how BTP works from start to end, so people can shape their own opinion on their service and decide for themselves if they wish to use it. Also I was sort of requested to post this partially as proof and partially because people were interested in seeing how BTP worked after asking for a quote etc. So thank you for telling me something I already knew, that this is not a research but a review.

**hotsauceman1**

Again, a problem arises that even if you give thme a glowing review, 5 outta 5 stars, we can point to a myriad of cases against the contary, you don't base your opinion on one review.

**M0ff3l**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Again, a problem arises that even if you give thme a glowing review, 5 outta 5 stars, we can point to a myriad of cases against the contary, you don't base your opinion on one review.

Only half of the review is the end result, the other half is whats in the OP right now, that is the communication with BTP and how setting up a project works with that company. I feel you are also very biased towards an opinion here. Saying this one review doesnt count for anything. Also not every client of BTP will do a review of their stuff, and people unhappy with their result are more likely to do a review. So in my opinion if youre just going off of reviews on the internet your opinion will be skewed against BTP just because of that fact right there.

**hotsauceman1**

No, looking around formed my opinion. They are a poorly run company that does rushed jobs, even for display miniatures, like the heavy gear ones at Gen con, the tau outpost, even in their own website, they are not that good.

**plastictrees**

To be fair to M0ff3l (and I think your reasons for using BTP are bizarre) the thread itself is intended to be the useful source of info for interested parties, not the result.
People can judge for themselves based on the information he/she provides, expecting scientific method to be applied is a bit silly.

As far as the broader BTP review comment, I would have thought that people would have been excited to show off their awesome newly painted armies.