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At the end of the day, all we are missing is the countless D100 tables, and we can go back to 1st edition.

finally be able to get my necromancer back into employment and getting paid, the lazy bum!!!


I'd suggest just to play with 1 base box, and use the few figures you get out of a 16 man box to make a few different "units", and you can go at it slow, and build on them ala Mordhiem, which is dangerously looking like what it is evolving into.

I really dislike Mr. Wall of Text, but he is keeping me surprisingly entertained with his, "See, your only getting "RAINED" on.... while he zips his trousers. It only hurts for a little bit....


the changes alluded to are crap at the end of the day. You are sitting here like them failing is a good thing. it would be priceless if it wasn't so tragic.

I know its you Kirby!!! I just know it!!!!!

 Yodhrin wrote:

 fullheadofhair wrote:
Unsupported games die for a very simple reason. No new blood. It is a fantasy world to say a player base can keep a game alive - it just isn't so. Several reasons:

1) no models available for new players. If I play C3 with a new person how the heck are they supposed to buy the models at an affordable rate. Now try BFG or Epic etc etc

-snip-.

This is the biggest one for me. It's easy to talk about keeping a game going, but if part of the appeal of the game is the setting and its aesthetic, not having access to models that have the right visual themes is a problem. For example, some people might be happy using the relatively cheap(not a slight against their quality) Perry WotR figures to build an Empire army, but goddamnit I want my pseudo-gothic, skull-encrusted not-Landsknecht with steam-driven tanks and ridiculous mythical-chicken cavalry. Even finding enough models of the right aesthetic to put together a human Mordheim warband without any GW figures at all is a stretch, let alone the three+ that typically take part in a campaign or an entire tabletop army. There's been a group of people wanting to try Epic in my area for the last two years, but only one actually has an army and the rest of us haven't been able to find/win a decent ebay auction or locate a secondhand army anywhere, and not many of the "not-Epic" 6mm models out there actually look like the GW factions. BFG looks to be finally getting out of the slump it was in for a while with no 3rd party models and ridiculous ebay prices, but there still aren't a lot of options if you want Gothic space-cathedrals and organic-designed solar-sail space elves, and those that there are ain't cheap because they're from small companies working in resin.

If all this was about was chucking some plastic on a table and moving them about with friends, sure no problem, but for a lot of folk model ranges are not interchangeable.

I'm with you. I am fine with a little bit of not quite WYSIWYG (like a smoke launcher instead of a magna grapple), especially when it's because the player simply likes the aesthetic of one configuration better than another (like "Blood Talons look cool, so I'm going to put them on the model, even though I don't have the points for it"), but I draw the line at models totally made for some other purpose, like a Bumblebee (Transformers) model representing a Riptide. Sans models that draw me into the game world, I would rather see paper triangles on the table to play. Or, you know, just go do something else.

I kind of agree, but only because GW rules are bad. If the rules set is good I will use all sorts of things for it. If it is bad, I will go do something else, even with my SoB and orks.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Or, it could be 2 factions, like what we saw in the global Warhammer Fantasy "Storm of Chaos" campaign:
- Disorder (DoC, HoC, BoC, CD, DElfs, Skaven, Orks, VC, TK)
- Order (Empire, Brets, DoW, Dorfs, HElfs, WElfs)

From the way the End Times is going, I wouldn't be surprised if VC/TK are lumped together into Order instead of Disorder. Lizards would play into Order as well. Sure, they flew "over the horizon" in their ziggurats, I don't think they are lost in space. Just like Arnold, Kroq-gar said "I'll be back!"

I dunno. TK & VC are classic "eevul" monsters...

 streamdragon wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
I think you need to stop thinking in old WHFB categories (Brettonia, Empire, ...) and think more along the lines of D&D / LotR: Good - Neutral - Bad.

That forces of light-Idea isn't the worst that can happen. Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins. On one hand it will be pretty hard to get a mono-faction army out of that, since I assume there will be like two units per old subfaction, tops, for quite a while.

On the other hand, that way you might get to paint something different every time you buy a box, which is not that bad as anyone who had to paint 4-5 full squads of boyz/thermagants/IG platoons can tell you. With that "we have to release only a couple units per old faction"-approach it might actually save some factions from SoB-status, since they don't have to make a whole codex and product range and instead can just release some juicy, iconic unit everyone might like to some degree.

Yeah guys, ignore that you've spent possibly years putting together your army, you can now put together ANOTHER army that you COULD have put together before but opted not to! GW is saving you from yourself!

@Bolded. I play Skaven, Beastmen, Tyranids, IG and Orks. Oh, and SoB. Painting a billion of a single model isn't anything that someone selecting those armies is surprised by.

Dude, I agree that a lot of people will be pissed because 90% of their army will get a lot of shelve time now. I merely try to point out that it might have it's good sides too. Look at me: I've never played fantasy, and with the clunky rules and tons of models I'd have to make, there's no chance in hell i'm going to try 8th ed WHFB. Make it a small-unit game with say 3-5 squads of up to 5 models and streamline the rules (a lot) and I might try it. So as a dirty scheme to get new blood in, this doesn't seem too bad.
The strategy is a bummer for veterans, but when did GW ever do something for them (in the last 15 years, at least)?

 Kosake wrote:

Dude, I agree that a lot of people will be pissed because 90% of their army will get a lot of shelve time now. I merely try to point out that it might have it's good sides too. Look at me: I've never played fantasy, and with the clunky rules and tons of models I'd have to make, there's no chance in hell i'm going to try 8th ed WHFB. Make it a small-unit game with say 3-5 squads of up to 5 models and streamline the rules (a lot) and I might try it. So as a dirty scheme to get new blood in, this doesn't seem too bad.
The strategy is a bummer for veterans, but when did GW ever do something for them (in the last 15 years, at least)?

That's not Warhammer Fantasy Battles though. That's Warhammer Skirmish, a rule set that has existed in previous editions of WHFB.

Edit: Also, they basically did this for 40k without screwing over the main game when they released rules for Kill Team.

I also don't understand why a skirmish rule set has to come at the expense of existing armies. That makes 0 sense to me. I'm all for new models with cool rules and all that. Take the End Times releases: I love the new Vermin Lord and Storm Fiends. But why would I buy them if there's a chance they're part of the 90% of my army that will become useless? I know you're not GW, so the questions are more rhetorical.

But really it was more this part:

Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins. On one hand it will be pretty hard to get a mono-faction army out of that, since I assume there will be like two units per old subfaction, tops, for quite a while.

Which read as "hey, at least you can paint some empire with your elves! Or dwarves with your brets!" that I was referring to.

If they couldn't sell me those models before, why would I want to buy them now? Unless I'm basically forced to, to field what I already own? Can't imagine that going over well with players.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I dunno. TK & VC are classic "eevul" monsters...

Evil, yes. But, if you're looking at the difference between "Chaos" and "Order", VC & TK would definitely fall under order and not disorder. I know it is semantics, but current End Times are drawn between lines of Order (All Elves, Empire/Brets, Lizards, Dwarfs and Undead) versus forces of Chaos/Destruction (Chaos Legion and Skaven and O&G).

The high price of entry is entirely GW's fault

Its just tooo overpriced. With companies like Warlord, $35 can get you what would be a decent sized starter army
http://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/pike-shotte/products/thirty-years-war-imperialist-regiment

$35 is barely a regiment in GW terms with subpar miniatures

AVGN sums it up nicely [MOD EDIT - Apparently there's some NSFW language in there? Be warned! - Alpharius]

The prices for entry for GW games are actually pretty disgusting these days.

I look back at my own introduction to the hobby, of going into a GW store and being able to pick up a small epic force, and get into Blood Bowl, and think that if that had happened in 2015 I would have had to walk straight back out of the store again. It would have been the same for many of my fellow wargamers who are of a similar age.

The pricing structure has moved it out of the range of the middle classes, so that it is only an option for the rich, which I am convinced is why the sales continue to drop year after year. There just isn't the demographic of wealthy kids able to spend £200-300 on rules and miniatures, to play the games as GW would have you play, while there is so much out there competing for the spending money of that age group.

Yes there are lots of other wargaming alternatives available, but for the time being GW still dominates the high street in the UK in terms of wargaming stores, and if you don't know anyone (in terms of friends of family) that plays at a club then there is no opportunity for you to discover the industry through that route.

I honestly don't believe we are likely to see GW correct their course with pricing. Even if lower miniature counts are introduced, they will find other ways to prop up the price such as a higher price per miniature, or increasing amounts of codex creep and DLC needed to play the game. History has shown this to be the case, and GW are very astute in this regard.

At this point, I'm hopeful that the likes of Wayland Games will follow through with their promise of new FLGS across the UK, and at least we can see the free market in action, and some other companies that are able to offer the wargaming experience for far less continue to rise in prominence.

36 dollars for 43 guys? Not a bad deal Warlord, not a bad deal...

I wouldn't say the games have been priced for the rich. They've just been priced out of the range of the demographics that most of us were when we first discovered GW's various products.

I can remember going to a hobby shop with 20 bucks from my birthday and snagging a handful of various blisters, usually because they were priced reasonably, and doubly so if I picked up figures from a company trying to ride on GW's coattails.

Bring back those kinds of prices, you'll get the kids back in. If the kids are even what they want these days.

@streamdragon: Why making a skirmish game at the expense of the big one? We're talking about GW here, that's why. You know, the world shouldn't see things like nazis, anti-vaxers, animal cruelty and gw buisness practices, but, alas, we don't live in magic pony-fairy kingdom.
My biggest fear is not the shake-up of the old factions. As I said, I'm no fantasy player, but I understand your pain there. No, my biggest fear is that they will release this skirmish edition with pretty much the same old, clunky, bloated rules. Instead of simplicity and dynamic game flow you'll get the same slow pace that was before (slowed even further down by more random tables and USRs that cause lots of re-rolling for minor gains).
So not only will your army be outdated, your game experience wont improve. If they get rid of some outdated units but instead make the game more dynamic, that would be a good deal in my book.

 Kosake wrote:
Dude, I agree that a lot of people will be pissed because 90% of their army will get a lot of shelve time now. I merely try to point out that it might have it's good sides too. Look at me: I've never played fantasy, and with the clunky rules and tons of models I'd have to make, there's no chance in hell i'm going to try 8th ed WHFB. Make it a small-unit game with say 3-5 squads of up to 5 models and streamline the rules (a lot) and I might try it. So as a dirty scheme to get new blood in, this doesn't seem too bad.
The strategy is a bummer for veterans, but when did GW ever do something for them (in the last 15 years, at least)?

I have a funny feeling the small model count will require huge models, so you'll maybe have a regiment of infantry, some cavalry, backed up by some giant war machines and a giant lord character on 120+mm bases.

Herzlos wrote:

I have a funny feeling the small model count will require huge models, so you'll maybe have a regiment of infantry, some cavalry, backed up by some giant war machines and a giant lord character on 120+mm bases.

Yeah. Now make the lord character a cool robot and call it warmachine... ^_°

A fair bit since my last post so I'd just like to offer a thumbs-up to Korinov, and Wehrkind's last post, and a big ol' facepalm to some of the rest of you, especially xxvaderxx and Fullheadofhair. If you think old editions and 'dead' games are completely gone, with no hope of a resurgence in popularity, then you really need to talk to some Bloodbowlers, the Epic gamers at Tactical Command, or the Oldhammers. I particularly admire the latter group: just said 'feth it!', pulled WFB 3rd ed off their bookshelves, and had (or, should I say, 'are having') a blast. Didn't give the tiniest crap about which edition was the current one, or if some people halfway across the country weren't playing it - particularly those hallowed, mythical beasts called 'new gamers' - or whose polystyrene puppy GW kicked this week. They just made half a fuss about what they liked and enjoyed.

If you resent the idea of putting in effort to sustain your personal hobby (stop fretting about the wider trends in wargaming; it's so unhelpful) and are frustrated by the bizarre, rationalised, but ironically irrational stance folk take in regard to GW's two core games (whether for or against!) then welcome to the world of gaming outside the GW compound. There are quite a few of us out here who don't have our games fall into our laps in a nice, neat pile, and don't expect it to. Sometimes that does mean going without for a while, and making compromises in rules and model choices; but sometimes that can also be a motivation to wheedle and cajole, even build and organise a little, when you realise GW ain't holdin' yer hand, and maybe even that you don't need it to.

If that's not good enough, have fun sulking in the corner and doing nothing about it. Sounds like a wheeze.

Also, I changed my sig a bit, just for you. Do you like it? Does it make my post's bum look big?

 Vermis wrote:
A fair bit since my last post so I'd just like to offer a thumbs-up to Korinov, and Wehrkind's last post, and a big ol' facepalm to some of the rest of you, especially xxvaderxx and Fullheadofhair. If you think old editions and 'dead' games are completely gone, with no hope of a resurgence in popularity, then you really need to talk to some Bloodbowlers, the Epic gamers at Tactical Command, or the Oldhammers. I particularly admire the latter group: just said 'feth it!', pulled WFB 3rd ed off their bookshelves, and had (or, should I say, 'are having') a blast. Didn't give the tiniest crap about which edition was the current one, or if some people halfway across the country weren't playing it - particularly those hallowed, mythical beasts called 'new gamers' - or whose polystyrene puppy GW kicked this week. They just made half a fuss about what they liked and enjoyed.

If you resent the idea of putting in effort to sustain your personal hobby (stop fretting about the wider trends in wargaming; it's so unhelpful) and are frustrated by the bizarre, rationalised, but ironically irrational stance folk take in regard to GW's two core games (whether for or against!) then welcome to the world of gaming outside the GW compound. There are quite a few of us out here who don't have our games fall into our laps in a nice, neat pile, and don't expect it to. Sometimes that does mean going without for a while, and making compromises in rules and model choices; but sometimes that can also be a motivation to wheedle and cajole, even build and organise a little, when you realise GW ain't holdin' yer hand, and maybe even that you don't need it to.

If that's not good enough, have fun sulking in the corner and doing nothing about it. Sounds like a wheeze.

Also, I changed my sig a bit, just for you. Do you like it? Does it make my post's bum look big?

You, literally every time you post about this subject:




Out of interest, what would you suggest the person who, in your example, is "halfway across the country" from the courageous Oldhammer heroes who don't care about what anyone else is playing, and can't persuade anyone that games locally to follow their example? "Tough"? And how about the many, many folks out there who have commitments outside their wargaming hobby that don't leave them enough time to take on the responsibility of reviving an entire community of gamers single-handed? "Too bad, so sad"? As hard as it apparently is for you to imagine, the solutions that work for you are not universally applicable, nor universally desirable - I'm lucky enough to have plenty of free time at the moment, so I can afford to put in the necessary effort to try and force a revival of Mordheim at a local club so I have opponents to play against, but that doesn't render me incapable of grasping that other people's circumstances might not allow for that amount of time & effort to be spent on wargaming, and so empathise with their regret and/or annoyance that GW discontinued the game and stopped supporting it, so making it hard for them to find games.

People play games that other people near them are playing. When numbers drop below a certain critical mass, they all start to play a different game. One of my local groups is basically a giant wheel of different games being seized, played energetically for a few months, and then the majority of players move on to another thing, while still keeping that earlier game around for occasional flings.

When a new edition of Warhammer launches, everyone in wargaming will either decide to invest in it or to ignore it. Current ownership of armies is not the sole determinant in that decision, from what I can tell; lots leave, lots enter. Those that ignore it will not be able to continue investing (time, money, etc) in the prior edition for the simple fact that few others in their local area will make the same decision. So instead they will move on to another game, and whichever game is most popularly played in their area will be one of the primary factors at that point.

This has long been Warhammer's strength, i.e. that you can pretty much always guarantee getting a game of it. When or if that changes - when I can't assume that buying a WFB army will automatically give me a solid local base of players to game against - then WFB will truly be in trouble. In some areas that point may have already been passed, judging from forum comments, but happily not in my area. Regardless, the prior edition will almost never be a valid game to keep to, simply because the available player base will dwindle to nothing.

 Yodhrin wrote:
You, literally every time you post about this subject:

That was unnecesarily rude.

As for what you've said regarding situations where the "feth the companies, let's enjoy my game as I like it" decision is really difficult, don't think for a second I can't understand what you're trying to say. In fact, I play 7th edition 40k because the 40k players in my area are the kind of guys who enjoy playing the "up-to-date" rules (most of them are tournament-type players so it's kinda understandable). As for Fantasy, 8th edition almost managed to completely destroy it in my town, almost nobody plays it anymore - and when I see people playing it, most of the time it's "paperhammer" and "cardboardhammer" taken to extreme levels. And who can blame them, specially the younger players. The cost of entry is just too insanely high, and getting to know alternative models from non-GW manufacturers can take quite an effort for someone new to the hobby.

Still, I prefer to have what I'd call a "positive" approach. Because simply accepting things as they are without even a try to change something will end up effectively killing the warhammer scene sooner or later. Each year that goes by, GW cares less and less for the rules and the player base. A few years down the road and they may just shift their entire business to a very limited and (even more) ridiculously expensive collectors market. Which will likely award them a spot in the guinness book as the company able to sell worthless plastic for the highest amount of money.

Meanwhile, new companies selling decent quality fantasy resin models at 1€/mini. It's a battle GW truly intends to lose, and the sooner the players stop being dependent on the companies' whims, the better.

Note that this shouldn't be appliable only to GW customers. Usually, the bigger a company gets, the more it cares for its customers' money and the less for the customers themselves. Warmachine players beware.

I wish GW would just stick to their "real life Renaissance empires in a dark low Fanasy world" setting instead of trying to be the next generic high fantasy setting and instead go for a A song of fire and ice in the renaissance era

When has WHFB ever been low fantasy? Or renaissance? Or anything like A Song of Ice and Fire?

 Breotan wrote:
When has WHFB ever been low fantasy? Or renaissance? Or anything like A Song of Ice and Fire?

The first two, pretty much forever. The last, never.

Dragons, demons, wizards, magical banners, and monsters are not exactly "low fantasy". I suppose you could argue that Bretonnians are low fantasy, but nearly nothing else is. As for the renaissance, the only thing that looks like it might/maybe touch on it are a few things in The Empire. Maybe.

 Breotan wrote:
Dragons, demons, wizards, magical banners, and monsters are not exactly "low fantasy". I suppose you could argue that Bretonnians are low fantasy, but nearly nothing else is. As for the renaissance, the only thing that looks like it might/maybe touch on it are a few things in The Empire. Maybe.

It's the rarity of that stuff that determines whether a world is high or low fantasy IMO, not whether or not it exists at all - people forget that the tabletop game is NOT the background, it's tiny slices of the background focusing on the largest battles of the military. For most citizens of the Empire, magic and magic users are things they never see and live in perpetual fear of, daemons are ill-defined superstitions just as they were in reality, and as for monsters hell most people in the Empire, even high-ranking nobility, don't even believe the Skaven exist and don't know them by that name. You could argue High Elven society in the WHW is high fantasy, but none of the human realms, and the world as a whole was designed around the idea of essentially importing a handful of high fantasy concepts and fables into a low fantasy world to give it some extra flavour - a medieval-to-renaissance mashup of European society with the added hook that all the horrible superstitions of the time are real and actually do want to eat your face.

 Breotan wrote:
Dragons, demons, wizards, magical banners, and monsters are not exactly "low fantasy". I suppose you could argue that Bretonnians are low fantasy, but nearly nothing else is. As for the renaissance, the only thing that looks like it might/maybe touch on it are a few things in The Empire. Maybe.

The fact that things like magic in the past lore was a rare and dangerous thing. As for the A song of fire and ice part, I was thinking about the political back stabbings in the Human Kingdoms, especially the Empire.

I would say amongst many of the fantasy settings today, Warhammer is closer to Song of fire and ice because it emphasizes the fact that it is a Medieval/Renaissance/Early Modern setting, in other words, life freaking sucks for the common folk
and its not much better for those nobility that lack access to magic either

Much like the actual 16th century Europe, life sucked, and everyone and nature are working against you

Well, it is confirmed who the final incarnates are now. Most of this isn't necessarily new news as the images earlier in this post confirmed the new Incarnates (taken from the GW purchase page).

Also included are background and rules for the full range of new Warriors of Chaos miniatures, including the Khorne Wrathmongers, Khorne Skullreapers, and the three ranks of Bloodthirsters – The Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury, The Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, and The Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster. It also includes rules for the following new Incarnates: Balthasar Gelt, Incarnate of Metal, Tyrion, Incarnate of Light, Grimgor, Incarnate of Beasts and Caradryan, Incarnate of Fire. As well as this there are rules and background for Isabella the Accursed and Archaon Everchosen.

Most interesting bit is that Isabella is in here with a stat line - that one hadn't been completely confirmed by pics released earlier. Will be interesting to see what happens with her and Vlad storywise.

There are more narrative battles as seen before. One bit that might be giving us more of an idea as to what to expect for special rules for formations:

Warhammer: Archaon Book 2 is an 80-page rules book that contains Armies of the End Times: new army selection rules to represent the desperate battles fought at the time that Archaon moves to crush the Warhammer world. There are also the Lords of Battle campaign rules and Halting the Apocalypse narrative campaign, 12 scenarios inspired by the narrative, and 9 Battlescrolls detailing armies and formations depicted in the story.

I am going to guess that Battlescrolls will be a huge push in 9th Ed or whatever the next edition is as they are going all out with it in this and the Thanquol release.

So much for the dwarf incarnate of Fire I guess. Poor dwarves just can't catch a break.

Something just struck me. This year a big change is coming for WHFB. Also there is a Total War: Warhammer more or less unofficially confirmed. Also hinted lately is that news about this is to come this year. Maybe these 2 things are linked? Also will the game be set in the old or new setting?

 Allot wrote:
Something just struck me. This year a big change is coming for WHFB. Also there is a Total War: Warhammer more or less unofficially confirmed. Also hinted lately is that news about this is to come this year. Maybe these 2 things are linked? Also will the game be set in the old or new setting?

GW linking non LOTR model releases with the release of an external thing that might drive people to their store?

So Noone in this thread has seen that the old world is destroyed at the end of archaon?

This really worries me as I was just about to start fantasy again

 LazzurusMan wrote:
So Noone in this thread has seen that the old world is destroyed at the end of archaon?

This really worries me as I was just about to start fantasy again

That was kinda the point of the End Times, no?

The very first rumours, months before Nagash, said as much. Warhammer doesn't make enough money, but GW decided to send it off with a bit of a bang, instead of dropping it quietly. Hence, the End Times.

Apparently Warhammer does not give as much money as Warhammer 40,000 and [Games Workshop] have decided to "close a big way".

http://www.cargad.com/index.php/2014/05/29/warhammer-este-ano-se-acaba-warhammer/