Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**lord_blackfang**

plastictrees wrote:
The BF statement is very "incensed guilty party" to me.
Reads like something Defiance would have posted.

That was my first thought exactly.

**Sining**

If companies or individuals just wanted money for existing or attempting to do something, I would suggest Patreon instead of Kickstarter, since KS actually requires you to accomplish something.

**Twelvecarpileup**

I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.

Now if you're wondering why I'm paying now: I have been emailing them for six months begging for them to send me the invoice... I finally got it Thursday, paid it Friday.

I did two swaps. It took them six months to confirm two items being swapped.

Although to be fair, they only responded once every three months.

So yeah... not really going to take BF's side on this.

A lot of people are forgetting the months that BF would not post updates or respond to emails... this Kickstarter has been kind of a mess.

**JohnHwangDD**

The contract looks very clean, and it would appear that BF has reneged on payment, so they are in material breach of contract. I hope DS takes them for every penny, plus treble damages.

**warboss**

Twelvecarpileup wrote:
I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.

Now if you're wondering why I'm paying now: I have been emailing them for six months begging for them to send me the invoice... I finally got it Thursday, paid it Friday.

I did two swaps. It took them six months to confirm two items being swapped.

Although to be fair, they only responded once every three months.

So yeah... not really going to take BF's side on this.

A lot of people are forgetting the months that BF would not post updates or respond to emails... this Kickstarter has been kind of a mess.

If you just paid right now, the funds are still in their account. Get your money back immediately whether through paypal or your credit card.

**Shandara**

Sining wrote:
Yeah. That's your attitude towards KS though, not everybody's.

It's the best way to treat them though. Rather than seeing KS as a store where you pre-order.

**JohnHwangDD**

warboss wrote:
Twelvecarpileup wrote:
I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.

If you just paid right now, the funds are still in their account. Get your money back immediately whether through paypal or your credit card.

This.

Initiate Chargeback / Dispute *IMMEDIATELY*.

Do not wait a minute. DO IT NOW!

The project is clearly fethed, so getting as much out, as quickly as possible, should be your top priority. There will likely be a run on BF's account, and you don't want to be the last guy in line, trying to squeeze pennies out of an empty wallet.

**warboss**

Shandara wrote:
Sining wrote:
Yeah. That's your attitude towards KS though, not everybody's.

It's the best way to treat them though. Rather than seeing KS as a store where you pre-order.

If that is how the majority of tabletop game KS were presented by creators as well as pledged on by the public, I suspect we'd have only a small handful that would crack the 6 figure mark.

**Sining**

Shandara wrote:
Sining wrote:
Yeah. That's your attitude towards KS though, not everybody's.

It's the best way to treat them though. Rather than seeing KS as a store where you pre-order.

Let's just agree that people have different opinions and there is no way to quantify "the best way".

**SeanDrake**

I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.

There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.

There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.

There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.

**Starfarer**

BF FINALLY refunded my KS pledge after months of back and forth. Just glad I got out of this with nothing lost than my patience for BF and interest in Dust.

Hope DS can forge their own way without relying on outside distribution, but I'm not supporting BF ever again.

**Daston**

This all sounds very strange.

My dealings with BF have been very good any issues I have had with FoW products have been dealt with quickly and professionally. I was just starting to warm to a company that cares about their community (after GW pretty much said piss off to everyone) and then they go do something like this!

Lets just hope they sort it out quickly and everyone moves on.

**warboss**

Daston wrote:
This all sounds very strange.

My dealings with BF have been very good any issues I have had with FoW products have been dealt with quickly and professionally. I was just starting to warm to a company that cares about their community (after GW pretty much said piss off to everyone) and then they go do something like this!

Lets just hope they sort it out quickly and everyone moves on.

From almost all the reports about GW customer service (other than during the peak of "fine"cast issues) I've seen, they're top notch just like you're describing for BF. BF also takes their cues from GW in regards to how they bully retailers into not giving discounts as well as mandating their own models in events. As a newer company that IIRC was started by ex-GW employees, they're basically a snap shot of GW in the mid to late 1990's.

**Shotgun**

SeanDrake wrote:
I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.

There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.

There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.

There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.

This was my take as well. If you have a clear example of failure to honor a contract, you let your attorney's handle it and move forward. Instead you stick it out in social media hoping that public pressure will get you where legal avenues have failed? It certainly doesn't seem like that is how you would negotiate from strength.

**warboss**

Shotgun wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.

There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.

There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.

There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.

This was my take as well. If you have a clear example of failure to honor a contract, you let your attorney's handle it and move forward. Instead you stick it out in social media hoping that public pressure will get you where legal avenues have failed? It certainly doesn't seem like that is how you would negotiate from strength.

I'd suspect that it is due to the relative lack of power. BF is the big dog and has the money whereas DS has had to shoulder the costs without apparent payment. Going public is "free" whereas depending on legal avenues isn't.

**lord_blackfang**

I just remembered what a hissy fit BF threw when Maelstrom forgot (or "forgot") to exclude their products from a site-wide sale one time.

**ced1106**

-DE- wrote:
Except BF were upfront about the Dust KS being a pre-order.

Not getting what you paid for is a he**uva definition of a "pre-order"!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:
If you are acting in a manner which pretty blatantly implies you are selling a product, and you accept money given in payment for that product, you are bound by consumer protection law. You don't get to turn around and say "Oh, it wasn't really a pre-order, just a request for charitable donations!" That gak does not fly.

It does if it's not enforced. AFAIK, only that DA in Washington has done *anything* remotely resembling consumer protection law. Were there any other examples?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krinsath wrote:
While I can understand BF feeling like DS has created a boondoggle for them and the brand really isn't worth it in hindsight, that doesn't mean that they can just ignore the fact that they made a deal with the backers of the KS to deliver these things. If they want to drop DS like they're hot garbage then fine, but don't involve people who have nothing to do with the contract dispute in that..

Except who else would manufacture the miniatures? I certainly wouldn't want to deal with a company that even has the possibility of reneging on a contract.

Anyway, replying because RikTor of Up Front fame spent pretty much the equivalent of their KS funds on their lawyers then settled, leaving backers with no rewards. I guess that's how some creators see the "deal" or "pre-order".

**JohnHwangDD**

warboss wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.

There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.

There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.

There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.

This was my take as well. If you have a clear example of failure to honor a contract, you let your attorney's handle it and move forward. Instead you stick it out in social media hoping that public pressure will get you where legal avenues have failed? It certainly doesn't seem like that is how you would negotiate from strength.

I'd suspect that it is due to the relative lack of power. BF is the big dog and has the money whereas DS has had to shoulder the costs without apparent payment. Going public is "free" whereas depending on legal avenues isn't.

More to the point, legal avenues take time (and money) that DS may not have. In the mean time, BF will continue to spend DS' money in order not to pay them. Unless DS can place a lien on BF and/or lock BF's accounts & receivables, this could take a very long time and there won't be any cash left, while DS goes out of business.

**Sean_OBrien**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
warboss wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.

There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.

There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.

There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.

This was my take as well. If you have a clear example of failure to honor a contract, you let your attorney's handle it and move forward. Instead you stick it out in social media hoping that public pressure will get you where legal avenues have failed? It certainly doesn't seem like that is how you would negotiate from strength.

I'd suspect that it is due to the relative lack of power. BF is the big dog and has the money whereas DS has had to shoulder the costs without apparent payment. Going public is "free" whereas depending on legal avenues isn't.

More to the point, legal avenues take time (and money) that DS may not have. In the mean time, BF will continue to spend DS' money in order not to pay them. Unless DS can place a lien on BF and/or lock BF's accounts & receivables, this could take a very long time and there won't be any cash left, while DS goes out of business.

They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...

**JohnHwangDD**

BF might have a US trade account that could be seized.

**ced1106**

Dang. DIdn't even think of which court would cover this case. Yeah, it'll be fun if Conan goes to the lawyers.

Anyway, I'm looking at the Dust: Operation Babylon homepage: "Dust Studio are working with Battlefront to bring this project to completion. Battlefront will handle the fulfillment of the pledges, shipping the rewards to backers through their worldwide distribution network."

So... I guess there's your yellow flag to not back the project. However, did backers ever know during the funding that BF would be receiving the funds? (Was it their name of the credit card statement?) I mean, the creator is "Dust Studios", so I would mistakenly assume that Dust Studios would be collecting my money when the funding ended.

Thanks in advance!

**Starfarer**

ced1106 wrote:
However, did backers ever know during the funding that BF would be receiving the funds? (Was it their name of the credit card statement?) I mean, the creator is "Dust Studios", so I would mistakenly assume that Dust Studios would be collecting my money when the funding ended.

Thanks in advance!

I don't think it was clear who would be receiving the funds at the time. In retrospect, it should have been a bit of a red flag but at the time it seems like such a sure fire KS, as it WAS marketed more or less as a pre-order. All the models were completed already, we were just funding the expedited mass-production and distribution. They sold us on get the entire Babylon Campaign in August rather than it stretching out over the whole year. Now it will take a year anyway and soured many people on the game.

**weeble1000**

Sean_OBrien wrote:

They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...

Which is why I found the lack of a choice of venue clause to be rather odd.

**Sean_OBrien**

weeble1000 wrote:
Sean_OBrien wrote:

They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...

Which is why I found the lack of a choice of venue clause to be rather odd.

Rather silly and a bit on the amateurish side - but not at all uncommon, especially with hobby businesses (even million dollar hobby businesses). Everyone are friends and family (or something like that) so nothing could ever go sour to the point where we would need to litigate...

I know I have gotten a few looks and a bit of...perhaps hurt feelings?...when I have said that I will sign the contract after my lawyer looks it over. Even more so, when I bring back a redlined contract with additional clauses.

**AlexHolker**

Sining wrote:
Let's just agree that people have different opinions and there is no way to quantify "the best way".

No. If you really believe what Weeble says, you are defending fraud on a multi-million dollar scale. Read the "Risks and Challenges" section - not once do they even mention the possibility that you will not get the product you paid for. Read the sidebar and pretty much the entire front page - a list of products for sale and the price they will charge you for each. By any sane measure, they are presenting themselves as selling a product.

**Starfarer**

Sean_OBrien wrote:

They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...

Battlefront has a US HQ in Maryland. Presumably any case could be filed against them in the US.

**Sean_OBrien**

Starfarer wrote:
Sean_OBrien wrote:

They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...

Battlefront has a US HQ in Maryland. Presumably any case could be filed against them in the US.

It isn't really a question of if the case could be filed...rather a question of then what? Even having a large HQ in the US, doesn't mean that there would be liquid assets that could be garnered to cover the judgment. Most the money is probably not kept here, and putting a lien on real property is only effective should they move to sell it.

**Sining**

AlexHolker wrote:
Sining wrote:
Let's just agree that people have different opinions and there is no way to quantify "the best way".

No. If you really believe what Weeble says, you are defending fraud on a multi-million dollar scale. Read the "Risks and Challenges" section - not once do they even mention the possibility that you will not get the product you paid for. Read the sidebar and pretty much the entire front page - a list of products for sale and the price they will charge you for each. By any sane measure, they are presenting themselves as selling a product.

First of all, I'm not the one who agrees with weeble.

Second of all, I rather not get into a whole argument about what KS is supposed to be about and what it really is. Especially when this isn't about KS so much as it is about BF not paying DS

**Pyeatt**

It seems like, according to the official updates, Two companies are trying to figure out how to communicate, and every impatient nerd online is crying to get their stuff right meow.

**cincydooley**

weeble1000 wrote:

I back projects because I believe in them, or because I think the product is a cool idea. For me, when a Kickstarter project fulfills, I consider it a nice surprise in the mail, like a refund from a utility. Will my Tac-Tiles ever arrive? Probably, but I won't cry in my cereal if they don't. Is Aetherium going to show up one day? Most likely, and I'd love to see the product, but I backed because I love the company's philosophy. Are my Wolsung pledge rewards going to show up one day? Sure, sometime. And it will be a nice surprise when they do. But I ain't looking for them. I threw a little money at Bones 2 because I was going to buy those models when they hit retail and a wave 1 shipping slot opened up. I will honestly not be surprised if my little $10 pledge gets lost in the mix. If it does, I'll just buy them again when they hit retail. No big deal.

I back each and every Red Box Games Kickstarter on principle. I have so many RBG miniatures I likely won't ever get around to all of them. But that's not the point. Keeping those lovely products on the market is the point. Supporting a great artist and a great person is the point.

That's how you don't get 'burned' with Kickstarter. It isn't a store. It isn't a pre-order.

Really couldn't have said it better, weeble. Exactly my sentiments.