Ghostbusters: The Board Game - @$1,302,903 Next SG @ $1325K

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Manchu**

Because we haven't seen the stretch goals yet.

**Accolade**

I've never done a Kickstarter, and it seems like a lot of the ones I did have interest in (Titanforge's Dwarves, Robotech, and even All Quiet on the Martian Front-which I bought into when it was available in my FLGS), have had some big struggles with meeting what they offer, leaving people waiting way past the point where the product is available for general sales.

Still, I do really like the aesthetic and the fact that this is a board game...well, I have 29 more days to think about it.

**Platuan4th**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Why are there no terror dogs?

As Manchu said, most likely a stretch goal as they have shown up in the comics.

Wonder if we'll get Britt and her zombies from Infestation.

**MLaw**

Yeah, I worked in project management for a while. It's pretty rare for projects as complex as most miniatures kickstarters to actually be on time.. and even moreso for them to be on budget.

The general public isn't used to this and even though I am used to it I still get really upset when a project stalls during production (cough cough burn-in designs skyway cough cough ranger salamander cough cough gear for gamers battle boards) Man I must be getting a cold..

It's really important to remember this if you're new to kickstarter or crowdfunding.

You aren't necessarily guaranteed a refund if the project doesn't make it after they take your money.

If you receive a product you don't like, then you don't really get much recourse (I hate Deadzone seriously and the Underground Laser stuff was a major disappointment).

You aren't paying for an item. You get items (usually) as a reward for pledging to back the company. That creates the illusion that you're paying for something. The truth is, the company states what they're trying to achieve and how much they need for that. You're basically sponsoring a kid in a fun run at a school or buying something from a booster club.. The rewards system however, has been turned into a pre-order store system and thus, people's expectations (including my own) have been warped to reflect this.

I've backed a fair few kickstarters. So far the only 2 that are late to the point of being considered suspicious are Rangers Salamander and The Skyway Project. We've heard almost nothing on both of those except (we're working on it). I know from contract/project management experience that this is production talk for "we don't legitimately have anything to tell you so please leave us alone and forget that you gave us money".

If you don't know.. Defiance Games set the standard for taking people's money and running. Other projects like Sentinel Games seem to be making progress.. but at a horrendous crawl.. to the point that people aren't sure if they really are making headway.

I wrote that up to give people who are new to crowd-funding a little bit of an unbiased and experienced view.
There are rewards for backing. There are dangers. A lot of it is taken on faith. You have to figure out for yourself if that's an arrangement you're comfortable with.

**Bioptic**

I feel that I should point out that Cryptozoic have an established reputation for mediocre to poor licensed boardgames, and while Ghostbusters may somehow be an exception, backers should bear this in mind

Here's a list of their existing products, for reference. None of them is well-loved among boardgamers, to my knowledge.
https://www.cryptozoic.com/games

**MLaw**

Bioptic wrote:
I feel that I should point out that Cryptozoic have an established reputation for mediocre to poor licensed boardgames, and while Ghostbusters may somehow be an exception, backers should bear this in mind

Here's a list of their existing products, for reference. None of them is well-loved among boardgamers, to my knowledge.
https://www.cryptozoic.com/games

Huh.. I actually think I've seen a lot of that stuff on clearance at MiniatureMarket..

**ironicsilence**

I pledged in, not sure if ill actually keep the pledge or not but with 29 days left, plenty of time to put in a place holder and take a look later at what all gets added in

**Dark Severance**

Update #1: Day One Updates!

First and foremost, thank you to all of you who have backed this project already. We are well over half way to our goal and we haven't even finished the first 24 hours of this campaign! Our fans rock!

That being said, we realize there are a lot of questions and concerns that have been brought up about the campaign, so we have decided to address them in our first update.

EU/International Shipping:
We realize that the current EU/International shipping rates combined with possible VAT is a potential deterrent for backers. We are currently investigating a solution. Please be patient as we work to find the best solution possible.

Game Play Mechanics and Video:
We hear you want to know how to be a Ghostbuster?! We are actively working on a gameplay video and it will be up in the next few days. In the meantime, check out an explanation of the game's play mechanics from our game design team:

Ghostbusters: The Boardgame is an episodic, turn-based cooperative game. Each character has a unique set of abilities that you unlock by gaining experience points (XP). Players can play a single scenario or play through an entire campaign, where your unlocked XP bonuses really start to ramp up. Utilizing your character’s strengths and working together is the key to saving the world.

In a standard scenario, you need to seal multiple Spirit World gates across the map while trapping formidable ghosts. Some ghosts are tougher to target than others. If you miss, the ghost moves in unpredictable ways that could lead to you or your buddies getting slimed! When you trap a ghost, you carry it with you until it can be deposited into the Ecto-1’s “Dimensionometer.” Failure to return your trapped ghosts to the Spirit World can cause a catastrophic collapse between the walls of our two worlds!

At the start of each round, a custom Ghost die is rolled, which can summon new ghosts through open gates, trigger unique scenario abilities, or rouse the ghosts around you! When two ghosts occupy the same space, they combine into a higher class ghost and now you’ve really got your work cut out for you!

Game Designers

Adam Sblendorio is an omnivorous/gluttonous mediaphile known in some circles as a Creative Director. A passionate and proud geek with over a decade of producing table top games. Adam has been managing Cryptozoic's board games since 2013.

Mataio Wilson has been a long time play tester with Cryptozoic before becoming Associate Game Designer and working on games like Adventure Time Card Wars, the DC Deck Building Games, and other super top secret projects.

Matt Hyra has been with Cryptozoic since its inception and has worked on every board game release since then. His lead designer credits include DC Comics Deck-building Game, Adventure Time Card Wars, Walking Dead: The Best Defense, Bravest Warriors Cooperative Dice Game, and many, many more.

Impossible Mode:
Impossible Mode makes the already unpredictable ghosts even more challenging with additional and/or alternate special abilities. Mix these exciting aberrations in with the standard ghosts to increase the difficulty of a scenario. Or play with only Impossible Mode ghosts to push the limits of paranormal activity! These increase replayability and give the game a little extra paranormal activity.

Retailer Incentive/Glow-in-the-dark Slimer:
We understand that a lot of our backers would like to have the glow-in-the-dark Slimer figure added to their pledges. Unfortunately, this exclusive will remain just for the Retailer level pledges. The glow-in-dark Slimer is a retailer-exclusive because we at Cryptozoic believe in supporting hobby shops and other small retailers. We want to encourage people to go out and visit their local stores and what better way than giving them something special that only they can offer. So, we have specific exclusives for individual backers and Retailer backers. This allows us to support the core businesses that drive our industry while giving those of you who back our project from the start a wealth of exclusives that will never be available in-stores.

Stretch Goals/High Funding Goal:
We are obsessed with putting as much of our time and resources into making the basic game the best it can be. What's the use of having tons and tons of extra figures, if the game itself isn't up to snuff? We've spent over a year designing the game because we want it to be perfect! Still, no need to worry: we have some amazing Stretch Goals planned. As we get closer to our initial funding goal, expect some exciting announcements.

What are the figures made of?
Darn good question! The minis are 28mm scale single-piece phthalate-free injection molded PVC figures. All ghosts apart from the base game Stay Puft Marshmallow man will be translucent. And yes! You can paint them if you like!

Alternate box cover for Mass Hysteria packaging:
We’re happy to hear so many of you like both the special edition box AND the basic edition box. Fortunately for those of you that back the Mass Hysteria level, you will receive a giclée of the artwork that is on the Base box. Best of both worlds!

We hoped this has answered a good chunk of your questions and concerns.

Thank you!
Cryptozoic Entertainment

**Manchu**

Platuan4th wrote:
as they have shown up in the comics

Their license covers the movies, the toy lines (I guess that means the Real Ghostbusters as well?), and the IDW comics.

The Slimer exclusive thing is really dumb. Someone did not think that through and I bet CZE is stuck digging their heels in now.

The myth that KS is not a(n admittedly terrible) pre-order system needs to be nipped in the bud. There is a contract between the creator and the backer: I will give you ___ on ___ date in consideration of you giving me ___ product/service on approximately ___ date.

**Dark Severance**

Manchu wrote:
The Slimer exclusive thing is really dumb. Someone did not think that through and I bet CZE is stuck digging their heels in now.

Tough to say on that one. They talk a lot to retailers and that suggestion I suspect came from the retailers but not sure they really thought it completely through. Since they already require a retailers license, just giving a bulk discount should be more than enough. I understand them wanting to do something special to support retailers but I think it would be better to include 'extra KS exclusives' instead of an exclusive only for retailers. For example give Retailers access to extra Sandman Boss and Stay Puft.

I wouldn't say they are stuck digging their heels in though, during Hex they eventually changed some things based on backer feedback. We still have a long 29 days ahead though so we'll see what they pull out. 71% funded so hopefully in the next day or so we'll see what the stretch goals are. Since they mention the movies and toy lines, I'm hoping to see miniatures from those as well like an alternate 4 pack of Ghostbusters based on the movie versions or something. I'd also like to see some alternate versions and sculpts of things as well.

**Joyboozer**

Seriously, companies are still launching kickstarters without organizing affordable overseas options?
When has "we're looking into affordable options for overseas" not been a poofight?

**Manchu**

Maybe the shipping thing and the Slimer thing are both engineered problems. That is, problems that make more sense to fix publicly so that CZE can generate good will for being responsive.

**MLaw**

Manchu wrote:

The myth that KS is not a(n admittedly terrible) pre-order system needs to be nipped in the bud. There is a contract between the creator and the backer: I will give you ___ on ___ date in consideration of you giving me ___ product/service on approximately ___ date.

Kickstarter is NOT a store. In a store you have protections as a consumer.

https://www.kickstarter.com/trust?ref=footer

What everyone should know

Kickstarter is not a store. People aren't buying things that already exist — they're helping to create new things. Creating things isn't always easy. Some projects will go wonderfully, and others will run into obstacles. Be prepared for a little bit of each.

Creators are responsible for their projects. When you back a project, you're trusting the creator to do a good job, so if you don't know them personally or by reputation, do a little research first. Kickstarter doesn't evaluate a project's claims, resolve disputes, or offer refunds — backers decide what's worth funding and what's not.

Some projects won't go as planned. Even with a creator's best efforts, a project may not work out the way everyone hopes. Kickstarter creators have a remarkable track record, but nothing's guaranteed. Keep this in mind when you back a project.

You are perpetuating the problem. People assuming they have the same protections they do if they were to walk into a hobby shop or order from Amazon are dead wrong. When Defiance decides they aren't going to give you your egg suit, the legal recourse is yours to take and it's a fairly weak case as far as the wording on how kickstarter arranges backers.

The MOST that Kickstarter will do is prevent someone from creating another project. Moreover, they don't even research who is involved in the projects so if someone scammed people on Kickstarter, all they would have to do is start up another one under someone else's name.

Titanforge as an example, had some issues with their metal beard kickstarter. Their current sci-fi guys vs demon kickstarter is on a completely separate account. If they had not fixed the problems from the Metal Beard Campaign then it's unclear whether or not their second account would have suffered any actions.

Please stop misleading people. Yes, businesses are using Kickstarter LIKE a webstore for pre-orders.. but that does not mean it IS a webstore. There is an important distinction and people really do need to understand that.

**Alpharius**

Manchu wrote:
Maybe the shipping thing and the Slimer thing are both engineered problems. That is, problems that make more sense to fix publicly so that CZE can generate good will for being responsive.

Oooh, I like that one!

Fake Stretch Goals have a new favorite companion - Engineered Problems!

Pretty clever, really.

And, as much as Kickstarter may like to say something, well, it doesn't necessarily make it true...

**Manchu**

@MLaw

Please re-read my post carefully. Whether the KS website is a store is irrelevant to the legally binding contract between backer and creator, the cultivation of which is marketed by the KS company as pledges and rewards.

@Alpharius

Engineered Problems and Fake Stretch Goals go together like a horse and carriage.

**MLaw**

Manchu wrote:
@MLaw

Please re-read my post carefully. Whether the KS website is a store is irrelevant to the legally binding contract between backer and creator, the cultivation of which is marketed by the KS company as pledges and rewards.

@Alpharius

Engineered Problems and Fake Stretch Goals go together like a horse and carriage.

I agree with the sentiment but you are not actually entering into a contract with them for a product. You are backing them to achieve whatever their goal is. The rewards system is a gift. It's kinda like giving a prostitute a necklace instead of cash.. and you're paying for their company.. anything that happens is between consent...uh.. maybe I've said too much..

The point is.. it's misleading. Situations like the Defiance debacle only underline this problem and misconception.

Yes.. it is being used as a way for places to pre-sale. I don't know that others who are new to Kickstarter will make such a nuanced distinction without seeing a conversation like the one we are having though. At the very least it brings the dialog of what it actually is up. As far as I know, the people burned by Defiance do not have any way to recover their losses. Perhaps I am mistaken though.

**Manchu**

Yes, you are mistaken. We are talking about a contract.

**ced1106**

Manchu wrote:
Yes, you are mistaken. We are talking about a contract.

Ha ha. Good luck enforcing it.

A lawyer will cost you more than your pledge, so, at best, your recourse is to take it up with your credit card. But that's the only protection I've seen regularly used. The Washington DA has been cited as consumer protection against KS fraud, but this has been only for one case. With the Hansfree, an insurance lawyer took the creator to small claims court (?). And I can't find other examples -- especially with boardgames. I'd really like to know other cases where backers took action besides cc refunds against KS creators for their money back.

And two pages and no one's mentioned the Wizards lawsuit / litigation against Cryptozoic? With KS, any money pledged to a creator can be used as the creator pleases. Just ask the creator of The Doom that Came to Atlantic City -- the game backers would not have had Cryptozoic stepped in. Some contract!

**Manchu**

ced1106 wrote:
Ha ha. Good luck enforcing it.

First, some of us backers are actually lawyers ourselves. Second, no point I made can be overcome by an appeal to court costs. The claim was that a KS pledge is not a pre-order. That is false. A pre-order is just a kind of contract.

**MLaw**

Manchu wrote:
ced1106 wrote:
Ha ha. Good luck enforcing it.
First, some of us backers are actually lawyers ourselves. Second, no point I made can be overcome by an appeal to court costs. The claim was that a KS pledge is not a pre-order. That is false. A pre-order is just a kind of contract.

If you're a lawyer, I got some beachfront property in Montana you might be interested in.
If you show me where on any kickstarter there is wording that would constitute a contract for pledge rewards, then I'll even throw in a bridge.

**Manchu**

MLaw wrote:
If you're a lawyer, I got some beachfront property in Montana you might be interested in.
If you show me where on any kickstarter there is wording that would constitute a contract for pledge rewards, then I'll even throw in a bridge.

Don't argue with lawyers.

Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract.

Kickstarter is not a part of this contract — the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers. Here are the terms that govern that agreement:

From KS's TOU.

And check these out:

**MLaw**

What the actual Kickstarter claims it is setting out to achieve and how it phrases the terms of the awarding of pledge levels are what governs how those tie in. It is not a straightforward agreement. In this particular game's instance, this is defined at the bottom.

In the highly unlikely event that we are not able to deliver the game for some unforeseeable, calamitous reason, we will refund all pledges.

In contrast the same risks and challenges section from Defiances' campaign says no such thing.

"We're a very small company and very aware of our limitations. The reason for this Kickstarter is to produce what we believe will be one of our most popular sets in a more controlled environment where we can better anticipate demand and be able to plan for it with lots of cushion time built in.

Now that we've produced several sets in-house we're confident that our process, materials, and team are the right ones to make this set a huge success. In-house manufacturing allows us to control the process and quality precisely and make sure we are meeting the standards you deserve.

The beauty of Kickstarter is that if we don't meet our goal, your pledges are safe and if we do we know that we have budgeted appropriately to make "

Nowhere here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/defiancegames/28mm-power-armor-hardsuits-defiance-games?ref=nav_search does it actually say you are pledging for miniatures. It only states that you are helping them get ready for their release.
The pledge levels state what you will receive but they don't outline any terms or conditions. They have nebulous information floating around.
If you actually were a lawyer, you'd know that having words that don't specify something but imply it only (and that is due to context) then you don't have a contract. You certainly don't have an enforceable one when the only wording dealing with consequences in relation to a project are that Kickstarter has nothing to do with it.
I'm not a lawyer but I've had to assist in proof-reading contracts on complex multi-million dollar computer based training projects for the military via third party contractors. At best Kickstarter is a loose agreement that you will receive something for your money. There is necessary language and it is simply not present.

**Manchu**

See above -- KS TOU provides boilerplate contractual terms that apply to all projects using the platform.

When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract.

I don't know how it can be any clearer.

Even absent the explicit TOU, all of the elements of contract are present.

**ced1106**

Manchu wrote:
Even absent the explicit TOU, all of the elements of contract are present.

Yes, but, who's actually enforcing this?

Have you had to take up or threaten legal action against a KS creator? I definitely want to know how it turned out.

Heck, if you took 15% for litigations against deadbeat creators, there might be a side job for you. I'd sure like ADW and RikTor be made to pay for their scams and mismanagement!

**Manchu**

ced1106 wrote:
Yes, but, who's actually enforcing this?

Same as always, the courts.

ced1106 wrote:
Have you had to take up or threaten legal action against a KS creator? I definitely want to know how it turned out.

I have yet to lose enough money on a project or get angry enough with any creator (pretty close with Mike Nystul) to file a case. Actually, the most I have ever faced losing to a KS project was 100 USD on The Doom That Came To Atlantic City -- and CZE actually came through on that one, seemingly out of nowhere.

In other news, I got an email via KS from CZE asking me where I found the pics of the Cabbie and Grey Lady. The answer, for anyone else wondering, is here:

http://comicbook.com/2015/02/10/ghostbusters-the-board-game-announced/#Image29

**ced1106**

Manchu wrote:
Same as always, the courts.

Is that *really* a practical answer? As far as I've seen, the cost of going to court (time as well as money) outweighs the amount *most* backers pledge.

Are we really going to see an Up Front backer go after RikTor in Australia? How can you bring ADW to court if you don't even know where they are? Explain to me, exactly, how the courts are protecting these backers. Don't give me some handwavy non-specific answer like you've been doing so far. I want you to give me an example of a backer who actually went to court. Then I want you to give me another one. Then another one. All I got is a lawyer in a Hansfree KS. I'm up by you one example, btw.

Speaking of BTW, I have no problems arguing with you -- IF you provide me actual specific REAL examples of backers getting their money back and HOW they did it. Save me a few hundred bucks and you can win all the dang arguments you want!

Also, BTW, please look at and respond in the Dust: Babylon thread. Since you've actually dealt with contracts, I'd like your opinion of it. TIA.

**Manchu**

I don't appreciate you dismissing my posts as hand-wavy and non-specific while you are hijacking the point I actually made; which is, again, that a KS pledge is indeed a pre-order inasmuch as a pre-order is just a kind of contract. All these "practical" issues you are so proud to point out are no less true in the case of, hypothetically speaking, any party refusing to perform on its contracts.

I'm not sure why you think I am under any obligation to teach you anything, much less how to rescue your money from a deadbeat KS creator. I'm not here to win an argument, either. The elements of contract are present; the KS TOU explicitly ratify the transaction as a contract. There is nothing to win or lose. You are free to accept reality or not, it's very much all the same to me.

**ced1106**

So that's what you mean by "Don't argue with lawyers."

**Manchu**

Yes, and I will add, to clarify, "unless you can afford to hire them because it's a waste of their time otherwise."

**Dark Severance**

ced1106 wrote:
Explain to me, exactly, how the courts are protecting these backers. Don't give me some handwavy non-specific answer like you've been doing so far.

The courts protect backers the same way the courts protect people, it is just a matter of who will actually take someone to court. The issue isn't that there isn't a contract, the issue is that no one (other than a couple cases) have taken them to court because simply put as you already laid out the reason:

the cost of going to court (time as well as money) outweighs the amount *most* backers pledge.

That doesn't mean it isn't possible or change the fact that it is a contract that can be legally binding. It however isn't up to Kickstarter or someone to tell you how to do it, or do it for you but it is up to each individual to do so themselves. When I created websites and freelanced for businesses and they refused to pay their bills, there is nothing protecting me despite having a contract. I'm still the responsible party who has to take them to court. In most cases people tend to complain, then walk away because they don't think its worth it. They could get restitution, in some cases, to pay for the court fees as part of the court case but that is actual work. It isn't Kickstarter's fault that is the way the law works, there are a couple reasons for that but for the most part it is your own responsibility to do so.