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But isnt torsion more of a jack of all trades? Haywire is great, but that is covered by a unit of rangers from the skitarii battle maniple. ( in my list for example.)

Torsion works well on both light armour and mc's, dont you think? Haywire is great but if you face demons/ nids its kinda wasted.

Torsion is worthwhile if you take the relic Scryerskull that lets you paint armoured targets, otherwise it's pretty lackluster.

Good job i only had the parts left over to make haywire then... :]

Reason i ask is because i have a comp in a fortnight and im desperately trying( or tried) to throw together a hard list!

Comp is 3 games, 1750 3 sources ( up to 2 detatchemnt/ primary equivalents and up to 2 secondary.
Missions are primary : maelstrom, secondary : eternal war : tertiary -usual 3.
Heres what i got;

I'd take at least another one or two more Dragoons in that squad, if anything to take some heat off of your Ruststalkers and Infiltrators. 6 Str 8 attacks on the charge enough is nothing to snuff at, and even one landing a charge will cause havoc on your enemy. Two or three will give it more survivability.

I think Rangers have always been a toss up for Arc Rifles and Arquebuses, but if you're playing Arc Rifles, don't use them to hold backfield objectives. Play aggressive, and use your double-tap precision shots from Rapid Fire to your advantage.

Depending on your local meta, two AA Onagers may be a little overkill. Other than that, not much more flexibility to go with. It's all down to your battle tactics at that point in time. What are you putting in your drop-pods? I'm guessing your Skitarii troops and your Arc Breachers?

No, the reason for 1 dragoon is lack of pts! I had 3 in the list but couldnt fit it all in.
Heavy arc rifiles will sit in the back with the sang priest to hold objectives and snipe Armour.

The pods will have the grav + priest in one, haywire rangers in 2 and plasma vangaurd in 3.

Dragoon will just move up on objectives, i know they work best in numbers but like i said, you cant fit anymore of them in.

Knight will savage bikes/ MEQ with 15 ap3 shots, ( twinlnked for up to two turns as well.)

Onogars, i think 2 is worth it with the volume of skimmers and fmc out there and on the chance i do face them, ill have them there ready and waiting!

Scouts will win me every game with there boltguns.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Why do people keep asking/wondering, if Drop-Pod Vanguard will be a thing? Isn't it moot what the new SM Codex says, since most of us just rent-a-pod with Flesh Tearers, anyway?

Because it keeps the 50 precent of the people like me who would never paint their drop pods or guys flesh tearers just to use pods from using them. Now that I could use them with my already existing imperial fist drop pods, its one less objection to using them. Also any changes that make the powerful no drawback options more attractive are not a good thing.

 Wilson wrote:
But isnt torsion more of a jack of all trades? Haywire is great, but that is covered by a unit of rangers from the skitarii battle maniple. ( in my list for example.)

Torsion works well on both light armour and mc's, dont you think? Haywire is great but if you face demons/ nids its kinda wasted.

The Haywire guns are still S6 though and twice the shots, so good against non vehicles still.

Requizen wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
But isnt torsion more of a jack of all trades? Haywire is great, but that is covered by a unit of rangers from the skitarii battle maniple. ( in my list for example.)

Torsion works well on both light armour and mc's, dont you think? Haywire is great but if you face demons/ nids its kinda wasted.

The Haywire guns are still S6 though and twice the shots, so good against non vehicles still.

Normally, this would be true what with Torsion only being one shot. However, with Canticles' ability to reroll your hits, it's slightly more appealing. Slightly. Not enough to convince me though.

 Wilson wrote:
But isnt torsion more of a jack of all trades? Haywire is great, but that is covered by a unit of rangers from the skitarii battle maniple. ( in my list for example.)

Torsion works well on both light armour and mc's, dont you think? Haywire is great but if you face demons/ nids its kinda wasted.

and torison is wasted against high AV and single wound models.

Its range is also less.



I suppose it is a little more jack of all trades, but it isnt very good against anything

Haywire works much better against any type of armor. Then if the armor isnt there, you have some str6 dakka on a sub optimal unit.

Remember that haywire is also S6 ap5, which is pretty decent against both monstrous creatures and infantry alike

 gameandwatch wrote:
Remember that haywire is also S6 ap5, which is pretty decent against both monstrous creatures and infantry alike

Exactly. Remember that other weapons sitting in the Str 6 range include Scatter Lasers (Str 6 AP 6) and Assault Cannons (Str 6 AP 4, granted, they're Rending too). Sure, they may have more shots, but your weapon has haywire! You can mow down infantry and pop Land Raiders*!

* with a little luck

 Enigwolf wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
Remember that haywire is also S6 ap5, which is pretty decent against both monstrous creatures and infantry alike

Exactly. Remember that other weapons sitting in the Str 6 range include Scatter Lasers (Str 6 AP 6) and Assault Cannons (Str 6 AP 4, granted, they're Rending too). Sure, they may have more shots, but your weapon has haywire! You can mow down infantry and pop Land Raiders*!

* with a little luck

Or you can just take destroyers with grav cannons and have superior firepower.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
Remember that haywire is also S6 ap5, which is pretty decent against both monstrous creatures and infantry alike

Exactly. Remember that other weapons sitting in the Str 6 range include Scatter Lasers (Str 6 AP 6) and Assault Cannons (Str 6 AP 4, granted, they're Rending too). Sure, they may have more shots, but your weapon has haywire! You can mow down infantry and pop Land Raiders*!

* with a little luck

Or you can just take destroyers with grav cannons and have superior firepower.

I don't remember, but did anyone math-hammer the numbers of heavy grav vs. heavy arc against different AV values? If not, I can go do that.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
Remember that haywire is also S6 ap5, which is pretty decent against both monstrous creatures and infantry alike

Exactly. Remember that other weapons sitting in the Str 6 range include Scatter Lasers (Str 6 AP 6) and Assault Cannons (Str 6 AP 4, granted, they're Rending too). Sure, they may have more shots, but your weapon has haywire! You can mow down infantry and pop Land Raiders*!

* with a little luck

Or you can just take destroyers with grav cannons and have superior firepower.

I don't remember, but did anyone math-hammer the numbers of heavy grav vs. heavy arc against different AV values? If not, I can go do that.

Do it up dawg!!

Grav with rerolls. 15 hits, 2 glances so 3 HP and immobilized lr.

Arc 4.5 hits with rerolls, 4 HP dead raider.

1 shot Grav @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
AV (X): 0.083 HP
18 shots: 1.5 HP + Immobilized

1 shot Arc @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
Glance: 0.33 HP
6 shots: 1.98 HP
Pen: 0.083 HP
6 shots: 0.5 HP + Pen Result
Total: 2.48 HP + Pen Result

Turns out I forgot that Grav and Haywire don't care about your AV. Unless my math is failing me, it seems that Arc does a better job of killing vehicles. But Grav weapons have the upper hand when it comes to killing infantry. So it comes down to specialization in killing vehicles vs general ability to kill vehicles and infantry.

I mean honestly, I have been considering throwing in 2 squads of haywire breachers and a dominus with the cult detachment, which will not only get me the middle canticle bonus with my cohort, but will also allow me to use a canticle twice, and gives me better range and general AT than my haywire vanguard. In that sense, I will instead swap out the haywire vanguard for a full squad of regular vanguard for the same cost to be anti infantry and and MC

Rather than limiting them to power armor only, Drop pods are now FA in the stock marine dex. Let drop pod skitarii shenanigans begin.

Thoughts are left after the specific unit, I would also be careful with all the conversion fields. Its not hard to roll two 4s in a row.

Skitarii Rangers (65pts) [2x Arc rifle, Omnispex, 4x Skitarii Ranger]
Ranger Alpha [Arc maul, Arc pistol, Conversion field, Digital weapons, The Skull of Elder Nikola] - whatever here

Skitarii Vanguard (100pts) [Omnispex, 3x Plasma caliver, 9x Skitarii Vanguard]
Vanguard Alpha [Arc maul, Conversion field, Digital weapons, Radium carbine, The Omniscient Mask] - I would put the Phosphoenix here since it is the plasma unit, same type of target

+ Elites +
Sicarian Infiltrators (185pts) [Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads, 4x Sicarian Infiltrator]
Infiltrator Princeps [Conversion field, Digital weapons, Infoslave Skull, Phosphoenix] - Skull Here

Sicarian Ruststalkers (160pts) [4x Sicarian Ruststalker, Transonic razor, Chordclaw, and Mindscrambler Grenades]
Ruststalker Princeps [Conversion field, Digital weapons, Pater Radium, Prehensile Dataspike] - Put the Omniscient Mask here

+ Fast Attack +
Sydonian Dragoons (45pts)
Sydonian Dragoon [Phosphor serpenta, Taser lance] - I would switch this to the ballistari, for that sweet sweet cognis autocannon

+ Heavy Support +
Onager Dunecrawlers (180pts)
Onager Dunecrawler [Cognis heavy stubber, Cognis manipulator, Icarus Array - Twin autocannon, Gatling rockets, Daedalus, Mindscanner probe]
Onager Dunecrawler [Cognis heavy stubber, Cognis manipulator, Icarus Array - Twin autocannon, Gatling rockets, Daedalus, Mindscanner probe]

++ Cult Mechanicus: Battle Congregation ++

+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Dominus (105pts) [Macrostubber, Volkite blaster, Conversion Field, Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Digital Weapons, Infoslave Skull][WARLORD] - Autocaduceus is not going to do much in this list, I would get the scryer skull instead

+ Troops +
Kataphron Destroyers (165pts)
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]

Kataphron Breachers (150pts)
Kataphron Breacher [Heavy Arc Rifle, Arc claw]
Kataphron Breacher [Heavy Arc Rifle, Arc claw]
Kataphron Breacher [Heavy Arc Rifle, Arc claw]

++ Imperial Knights: Oathsworn Detachment ++

+ Lord of War +
Knight Warden (375pts) [meltagun, Reaper Chainsword, Stormspear Rocket Pod] - I would leave this as the stubber instead of the meltagun, you want it for firing at seperate targets, dont want to increase your charge range.

++ Blood Angels: Flesh Tearers Strike Force ++

+ HQ +
Sanguinary Priest (60pts)

+ Troops +
Scout Squad (55pts) [5x Boltgun, Scout Sergeant, 4x Scouts]

+ Fast Attack +
Drop Pod (35pts) [Storm Bolter]
Drop Pod (35pts) [Storm Bolter]
Drop Pod (35pts) [Storm Bolter]

1750 TOTAL
[/spoiler]

 Enigwolf wrote:
1 shot Grav @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
AV (X): 0.083 HP
18 shots: 1.5 HP + Immobilized

1 shot Arc @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
Glance: 0.33 HP
6 shots: 1.98 HP
Pen: 0.083 HP
6 shots: 0.5 HP + Pen Result
Total: 2.48 HP + Pen Result

Turns out I forgot that Grav and Haywire don't care about your AV. Unless my math is failing me, it seems that Arc does a better job of killing vehicles. But Grav weapons have the upper hand when it comes to killing infantry. So it comes down to specialization in killing vehicles vs general ability to kill vehicles and infantry.

a little bit better for arc rifles against low AV, because if you roll a 1 on haywire str6 can still glance/pen on it's own.

edges str6 haywire up ever so slightly.

 Exergy wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
1 shot Grav @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
AV (X): 0.083 HP
18 shots: 1.5 HP + Immobilized

1 shot Arc @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
Glance: 0.33 HP
6 shots: 1.98 HP
Pen: 0.083 HP
6 shots: 0.5 HP + Pen Result
Total: 2.48 HP + Pen Result

Turns out I forgot that Grav and Haywire don't care about your AV. Unless my math is failing me, it seems that Arc does a better job of killing vehicles. But Grav weapons have the upper hand when it comes to killing infantry. So it comes down to specialization in killing vehicles vs general ability to kill vehicles and infantry.

a little bit better for arc rifles against low AV, because if you roll a 1 on haywire str6 can still glance/pen on it's own.

edges str6 haywire up ever so slightly.

So if you're fighting AV... 7?

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
1 shot Grav @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
AV (X): 0.083 HP
18 shots: 1.5 HP + Immobilized

1 shot Arc @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
Glance: 0.33 HP
6 shots: 1.98 HP
Pen: 0.083 HP
6 shots: 0.5 HP + Pen Result
Total: 2.48 HP + Pen Result

Turns out I forgot that Grav and Haywire don't care about your AV. Unless my math is failing me, it seems that Arc does a better job of killing vehicles. But Grav weapons have the upper hand when it comes to killing infantry. So it comes down to specialization in killing vehicles vs general ability to kill vehicles and infantry.

a little bit better for arc rifles against low AV, because if you roll a 1 on haywire str6 can still glance/pen on it's own.

edges str6 haywire up ever so slightly.

So if you're fighting AV... 7?

No against AV10 if you roll a 1 on your haywire roll, as in the haywire bit does nothing then your str6 could still potentially cause damage.

str 6 needs a 4 to glance.

So instead of getting a damage result .8333 it gets a damage result against AV10 .9166

 Exergy wrote:
No against AV10 if you roll a 1 on your haywire roll, as in the haywire bit does nothing then your str6 could still potentially cause damage.

str 6 needs a 4 to glance.

So instead of getting a damage result .8333 it gets a damage result against AV10 .9166

Not... how haywire works, unless I'm misunderstanding. You don't roll haywire, then roll penetration. It's one roll - but on a 2-5 you glance and on a 6 you pen, unless you would otherwise pen on natural weapon strength.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
No against AV10 if you roll a 1 on your haywire roll, as in the haywire bit does nothing then your str6 could still potentially cause damage.

str 6 needs a 4 to glance.

So instead of getting a damage result .8333 it gets a damage result against AV10 .9166

Not... how haywire works, unless I'm misunderstanding. You don't roll haywire, then roll penetration. It's one roll - but on a 2-5 you glance and on a 6 you pen, unless you would otherwise pen on natural weapon strength.

Yeah, he's right here. Haywire roll is rolled instead of an armour penetration roll when rolled against vehicles.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
No against AV10 if you roll a 1 on your haywire roll, as in the haywire bit does nothing then your str6 could still potentially cause damage.

str 6 needs a 4 to glance.

So instead of getting a damage result .8333 it gets a damage result against AV10 .9166

Not... how haywire works, unless I'm misunderstanding. You don't roll haywire, then roll penetration. It's one roll - but on a 2-5 you glance and on a 6 you pen, unless you would otherwise pen on natural weapon strength.

Yeah, he's right here. Haywire roll is rolled instead of an armour penetration roll when rolled against vehicles.

I thought it was additional, guess i need to reread some things

This is the list I am looking at currently, before I do any servitor conversions and stuff.

Skitarii Maniple
Troops
x5 skitarii vanguard, x2 arc rifles, arc pistol, omnispex 105
x5 skitarii vanguard, x2 arc rifles, arc pistol, omnispex 105
x10 skitarii vanguard, omnispex 110

Fast Attack
x3 sydonian dragoons 135

Elites
x5 sicarian infiltrators, flechette blasters and tazer goads 185
x5 sicarian ruststalkers, chordclaws, transonic razors and mindscrambler grenades 160

Heavy Support
Onager dunecrawler, neutron laser and cognis heavy stubber, extra stubber 120
Onager dunecrawler, neutron laser and cognis heavy stubber, extra stubber 120

Cohort Cybernetica
Dominus, autocadeus of arkhan land, eradication ray 150
x2 kastelan robots, x2 twin linked heavy phosphur, x2 phosphur, datasmith, Raiment of the technomartyr 350
x2 kastelan robots, x2 twin linked heavy phosphur, x2 phosphur, datasmith 320

TOTAL: 1860

Tryin to figure out how to drop 10 points, as I REALLY dont want to lose the eradication ray of the dominus. For personal and tactical reasons. Maybe the extra dunecrawler stubbers?

I'd say the two extra stubbers.Everything else is too useful.

Is that the WD formation leth?

I said Id never do it, but i may have to get some drop pods

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Is that the WD formation leth?

I said Id never do it, but i may have to get some drop pods

Yep, I was just commenting on a list someone else posted.

Eventually I might drop either a dunecrawler, or the third vanguard squad to throw in an eversor assassin. Really because this is my first imperium army in 10 years (not a fan of imperium) and the eversor assassin is like one of my favorite things... Frenzon crazed berserker that explodes after death is just...so great, even if he is not that good.

Probably hurts the list a bunch, but what can you do, when you want something you want something.

Also, I plan on using the extra skitarii parts to convert a custom eversor, so that should be fun! (Im looking at you russtalker bitz)