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@Plumbumbarum

The idea that diversity is good is NOT a politically correct idea in America. It's more of a moral issue than a political one anyways. Also, no one here has said anything about censoring GW or is suggesting that GW should in anyway face restrictions because their models aren't diverse enough. Please stop with the straw man fallacies.

Also, you should understand that the long and complicated history of race relations in the U.S. make things like this a very relevant issue which you should not dismiss so lightly.

I guess the reasons for such extreme measures can be very convincing. Racism is bad and racist ideas lead to ku klux klan and Hitler and people get killed. But then, didn't ideas of equality kill multiple times more people? Sure not poor black guys only Russian, Polish and Ukrainian pest but still. So why dont we all enjoy some freedom of speech and thought instead.

Are you suggesting that racism is good?

Also, if you're talking about Joseph Stalin, I really don't think he cared much about equality... if he did it was because he cared about other people equally little which is really a different thing from what I mean when I talk about equality. There's also a difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. In the U.S. people typically mean equality of opportunity.


Edit: There's also equality of circumstance I forgot that one.

Mustela wrote:
Are you suggesting that racism is good?

I think he is suggesting that equality is bad, and putting women and black people in 40k is motivated by equality and therefore bad. If it does not make any sense to you, yeah, it is normal.

Still on about this? Jeez Laweez!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Makumba wrote:
The thing is for him and for me, and anyone from our cultur circle there is no problem of black people , not in the past , not now and not in the future.

If you have no problem, why all the cries of “B-b-b-but PC is ruining 40k

@Plumbumbarum

You might want to eddit your last sentence a bit. Taken at face value like that, it does sound a lot like a White Supremacist line and I am pretty shure that you don't want to be affiliated with those kind of people. It's the phrasing that makes you seem to say the two following enormities.

1) That Muslim are, one, non white (which is false for many of them) and that Jihad is motivated by racial supremacist goals instead of religious ones.

2) That you fight for a future where all black people are dead.

A second language can be very tricky. It's a pain I know very well.

Mustela wrote:
@Plumbumbarum

The idea that diversity is good is NOT a politically correct idea in America. It's more of a moral issue than a political one anyways. Also, no one here has said anything about censoring GW or is suggesting that GW should in anyway face restrictions because their models aren't diverse enough. Please stop with the straw man fallacies.

Also, you should understand that the long and complicated history of race relations in the U.S. make things like this a very relevant issue which you should not dismiss so lightly.

Ofc that Stalin didnt care about equality but he rode on ideas of equality. If you cant show racism in connotation with cool, by that logic you cant show communism as cool either. Or promote equality, because it led to bandits in rule killing millions. The trap of censorship, it never ends.

No it's not strawman. If anyone said GW should face restrictions that would be outwolrdly ridiculous and I wasnt about that. Still in many threads like this I saw enough posts about GW being misogynist racist white bigots and how 40k should change. Which is missing the point obviously.

Now to slavery. So you think that because your country flourished on black people's backs is a good reason for all the rest to get conscience fits. Dont like 40k dont buy it go for Mass Effect instead and dont ruin the former for the rest of us.

USA was not a victim, it was a perpetrator so I dont give rat's arse about you being sorry now in crazy ways. If on the other hand you are a black descendant of enslaved people then Im truly sorry for you. If it's any consolation, commisairs who are clearly a reference to soviets and are showed as cool heroes in 40k did such things to my people in such numbers that slavery could look like a good alternative for them. 40k is offensive all around and racism fits great.

I guess the reasons for such extreme measures can be very convincing. Racism is bad and racist ideas lead to ku klux klan and Hitler and people get killed. But then, didn't ideas of equality kill multiple times more people? Sure not poor black guys only Russian, Polish and Ukrainian pest but still. So why dont we all enjoy some freedom of speech and thought instead.

Are you suggesting that racism is good?

Yes. Racism is great, I love racism. I cant get enough of racism these days.

Again, what I suggest is that racism fits the Imperium. I dont know if it's mentioned somewhere in the fluff that racism is no more but I think racial tensions would be still alive in such a scumbag society. Maybe the best black people get is either working on the field on sone God forsaken planet or joining the line breaker lasgun squad for IG. Maybe not. But GW is consistent in showing Imperium as aging bald white men and it works, I see no reason to change it. Not every society is diverse, or has to be.

I have never seen someone manage to string so many sentences together with such little logic. Nor be so hypocritical about missing the point.

epronovost wrote:
@Plumbumbarum

You might want to eddit your last sentence a bit. Taken at face value like that, it does sound a lot like a White Supremacist line and I am pretty shure that you don't want to be affiliated with those kind of people. It's the phrasing that makes you seem to say the two following enormities.

1) That Muslim are, one, non white (which is false for many of them) and that Jihad is motivated by racial supremacist goals instead of religious ones.

2) That you fight for a future where all black people are dead.

A second language can be very tricky. It's a pain I know very well.

If you go back to mr. Hybrid Son of Oxyotl post a page back, I'm just repeating his lines. Dont take them at face value, just follow the discussion. I don't want to be rude but I don't think it's that bad. It's not a second language problem (though I do have them at times ofc), I know what I wrote.

Ok though, I dont want all black people dead in the future. Not all muslism are non white and it is not motivated by racial motives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mustela wrote:
I have never seen someone manage to string so many sentences together with such little logic. Nor be so hypocritical about missing the point.

You've not seen much then.

*facepalm*

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I for one dont have a problem with black people, I have a problem with mixing black people into 40k Imperium art, marines chapters etc. It would kill a few visual messages it tries to convey.

It would not, just as it has not in the few existing artworks with black people in them.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
You fragmented my post to single sentences, used at least a few cheap discussing techniques, misinterpreted half of it and failed to make a single relevant point.

Sure. If the fact women had held positions of power completely unrelated to the roles you assigned to them in 40k since the very beginning of the game was not a relevant. And if neither was multiple other examples showing you do not even know the 40k universe so well.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Ofc that Stalin didnt care about equality but he rode on ideas of equality. If you cant show racism in connotation with cool, by that logic you cant show communism as cool either. Or promote equality, because it led to bandits in rule killing millions.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I think he is suggesting that equality is bad, and putting women and black people in 40k is motivated by equality and therefore bad. If it does not make any sense to you, yeah, it is normal.

Ta-Daaaam !
For someone “misinterpreting” you, I feel I was pretty spot on!

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Again, what I suggest is that racism fits the Imperium. I dont know if it's mentioned somewhere in the fluff that racism is no more but I think racial tensions would be still alive in such a scumbag society.

And this just shows your ignorance of the setting. Again. Your whole point is based on your ignorance of the setting and you filling the holes this ignorance cause by your own prejudice. Does that sentence fits as a “single relevant point”?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I for one dont have a problem with black people, I have a problem with mixing black people into 40k Imperium art, marines chapters etc. It would kill a few visual messages it tries to convey.

The Ultramarines have a fleet commander (who is also an Ultramarine) who has dark skin. His name is Lazlo Tiberius.

He still fills all the criteria for Ultramarine-dom.

So what's the problem?

I don't see how having diverse human populations kills any of the visual messages GW tries to convey with their art. I think that you're arguing that there would still be racial tension in the 41st millennium, but I don't really agree with it so much since the feeling I get from GW's fluff and art is that if humanity is united in anything, it's their hate and distrust of everything that isn't human. I can buy human beings setting their own differences aside when there are mutants, heretics, and aliens that they can focus all of their energy on instead. I don't imagine race being an issue unless we're talking about some stupid little backwater planet with nothing better to do.

Oh no, please let's not get all "social-justicey".

 General Kroll wrote:
Ok, so I'm not being funny or anything, this is a genuine question, but why are there no black people in the 41st Millennium... Have I missed a memo or something?

Yeah, I think you have.

As a franchise, the "core" of Warhammer 40k is a Gothic Medieval-Europe-In-Space setting, with armored warriors, an Inquisition, an all powerful king, etc. It's fair to have the racial content of its people reflect the historical setting it was based on.

So, for example, if I made a game based on Samurai dynasties in space most people would be Asian. If I made a setting which borrowed heavily off Polynesian culture or religion, I'd try to have the people with features like Pacific Islanders.

Warhammer isn't some high-tech Star Trek style diverse society. The center of its mythos (Terra, the Emperor, and the Space Marines) is mostly white, because that's what you'd see in a medieval society.

Drager wrote:
GW as a company, though, seems to have a bit of a racism and sexism problem.

It's racist if you depict black people in your media as a bunch of vicious, watermelon-eating savages.

If you depict them reasonably, just not with enough frequency (by your subjective rules), can you really consider that racist?

@Mysterious Pants

That's a fair explanation. However, 40K is fantasy, a place that people escape to. Not everyone's perfect escape involves a single race and a gender imbalance. It seems a little messed up to me if you escape to a reality where there is arbitrarily only white people and a gender imbalance. Some people, like you, have offered speculation as to why there might only be white people. While I don't think there's anything wrong with that, there are just as many explanations for why there would be racial diversity. And honestly, why not have more racial diversity? I don't see what that changes. I'm pretty sure a little creativity can solve whatever potential issue people throw out.

I can see how social justice can be annoying when you're trying to have fun but I try to follow the tenets of: real world > fake world and real people > fake people.

And the bottom line which I support is that you can paint your models any way you want and anyone who actually cares how you paint them can go themselves.

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
Oh no, please let's not get all "social-justicey".

 General Kroll wrote:
Ok, so I'm not being funny or anything, this is a genuine question, but why are there no black people in the 41st Millennium... Have I missed a memo or something?

Yeah, I think you have.

As a franchise, the "core" of Warhammer 40k is a Gothic Medieval-Europe-In-Space setting, with armored warriors, an Inquisition, an all powerful king, etc. It's fair to have the racial content of its people reflect the historical setting it was based on.

So, for example, if I made a game based on Samurai dynasties in space most people would be Asian. If I made a setting which borrowed heavily off Polynesian culture or religion, I'd try to have the people with features like Pacific Islanders.

Warhammer isn't some high-tech Star Trek style diverse society. The center of its mythos (Terra, the Emperor, and the Space Marines) is mostly white, because that's what you'd see in a medieval society.

Drager wrote:
GW as a company, though, seems to have a bit of a racism and sexism problem.

It's racist if you depict black people in your media as a bunch of vicious, watermelon-eating savages.

If you depict them reasonably, just not with enough frequency (by your subjective rules), can you really consider that racist?

The White Scars are Asian-flavored, always have been. The Dark Angels were originally Native American-flavored (Ezekiel's original name was "Cloud Runner"). The Salamanders have alternated between genetic-mutation-black and African-heritage-Black since they were introduced. SoB art going back like 4 editions has depicted Black Sororitas.

40K is *not* "We took the Dark Ages and put them in space", it's "we drew on a lot of themes from medieval European institutions and put them in a sci-fi setting, but took pains to talk about the diversity of humanity spreading across the stars and forming colonies based on religious, ethnic and interest variations. We also made the badasses of our setting, the Space Marines, as diverse as we could think of, including having one guy who was half-alien. We also, for the lols, ripped off a bunch of other franchises and made grimly-funny characters out of them, like Inquisitor Karamazov, Obi-Wan Sherlock Clousseau and a whole army of Rambos with one guy named Marbo. Again, for the lols. Later, we added a line of models for an all-female Imperial Guard regiment called the Xenans, because a television show was popular."

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I for one dont have a problem with black people, I have a problem with mixing black people into 40k Imperium art, marines chapters etc. It would kill a few visual messages it tries to convey.

It would not, just as it has not in the few existing artworks with black people in them.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
You fragmented my post to single sentences, used at least a few cheap discussing techniques, misinterpreted half of it and failed to make a single relevant point.

Sure. If the fact women had held positions of power completely unrelated to the roles you assigned to them in 40k since the very beginning of the game was not a relevant. And if neither was multiple other examples showing you do not even know the 40k universe so well.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Ofc that Stalin didnt care about equality but he rode on ideas of equality. If you cant show racism in connotation with cool, by that logic you cant show communism as cool either. Or promote equality, because it led to bandits in rule killing millions.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I think he is suggesting that equality is bad, and putting women and black people in 40k is motivated by equality and therefore bad. If it does not make any sense to you, yeah, it is normal.

Ta-Daaaam !
For someone “misinterpreting” you, I feel I was pretty spot on!

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Again, what I suggest is that racism fits the Imperium. I dont know if it's mentioned somewhere in the fluff that racism is no more but I think racial tensions would be still alive in such a scumbag society.

And this just shows your ignorance of the setting. Again. Your whole point is based on your ignorance of the setting and you filling the holes this ignorance cause by your own prejudice. Does that sentence fits as a “single relevant point”?

No, not really and in general you failed yet again. Few woman inquisitors or one black Ultramarine crammed in for pc sake or whatever sake or the odd black guy in the art are rather exceptions showing the rule. There can be millions of them in the fluff but they're not in the art and that's good. Also I didn't even say that women ARE treated like I described but that they SHOULD be treated like that for the sake of integrity of the vision.So, a reading comprehension fail.

I'm not saying equality is bad. I'm saying that if you want censor to ideas with connotations to racism (ie future society dominated by white people) then by the same logic you should censor ideas with connotations to communism (ie forcing equality), so I said an entirely different thing. I like equality in real life, I dont like equality in a marxist sense. But yes you accdently got one thing right (in a different post though heh and I was specificaly about the first one), some people want to put women and black people into 40k out of misplaced sense of equality and are on some weird pc crusade. Just above me you have a quote from someone accusing GW of a racist problem.

My 'ignorance' of the setting, what do you mean? The few odd examples? Books so canon defining that all those black and women characters never make it to the art? White scars or Salamanders that I acknowledged in first post? 40k has no canon as said by GW. Going by the art though which is closest to showing what they actualy want for the setting, women and non whites don't exactly flourish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mustela wrote:
@Mysterious Pants

That's a fair explanation. However, 40K is fantasy, a place that people escape to. Not everyone's perfect escape involves a single race and a gender imbalance. It seems a little messed up to me if you escape to a reality where there is arbitrarily only white people and a gender imbalance. Some people, like you, have offered speculation as to why there might only be white people. While I don't think there's anything wrong with that, there are just as many explanations for why there would be racial diversity. And honestly, why not have more racial diversity? I don't see what that changes. I'm pretty sure a little creativity can solve whatever potential issue people throw out.

I can see how social justice can be annoying when you're trying to have fun but I try to follow the tenets of: real world > fake world and real people > fake people.

And the bottom line which I support is that you can paint your models any way you want and anyone who actually cares how you paint them can go themselves.

Oh Jesus. I find it messed up that in the all around offensive setting full of ridiculous bloodshed, you'd pick white people and gender imbalance as problems. No offence really but for me it's exactly the kind of misplaced overreaction pc brainwashing induces.

Not everyone's perfect escape involves a single race etc, exactly. That's why there's choice in form of mass effect or sth. If you want 40k anyway, don't expect it to change according to your sensibilities or it's censorship already, soft one (or rather 'social') ofc as it's still only train of people whining but still. 40k offends a few of my very beliefs/ ideas but I dont go and post how they have this or that problem.

But yes paint it as you wish.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
or the one where jihad succeded and all white people are dead.

You do realize that the aim of Jihad is arguably about killing non-Muslims, but has never, ever, even in your wilder fantasies, been about killing white peoples?

Sorry to hijack your post for this but I've already blocked the offending poster because... Are you kidding me? As a white Muslim that is possibly the most mind numbingly wrong thing I've ever read.
First, jihad means struggle. Usually the struggle to be a better Muslim against your more base desires. It can also cover defending yourself & the faith from people trying to persecute/kill you for your beliefs.
Second, people like these unislamic state only aim to kill or convert the entirety of the كفر so even the worst people to insult الله by using his name aren't pushing for anything like what you think they are. سلام.

@Plumbumbarum

Are you saying that you have a problem with a dystopian society being portrayed as equal? If so that explains a lot, and then I could understand your logic. However, the Imperium in 40K isn't Marxist. It is certainly totalitarian, and akin to Stalin's government however.

Honestly, there is a language barrier. You said you fight for a "black free future." This means that you fight for a future in which there are no black people. What it seems that you meant is that you fight for a "free black future," which is something entirely different. Can you understand why I would ask you if you think racism is good? You are consistently unclear. Honestly, this would be easier to sort out if you didn't A) automatically assume that everyone not understanding what you meant was a result of their stupidity, B) you actually know anything about global race relations and how that affects people on a macro level, and C) that you actually know what politically correct means. I assure you that Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl is not trying to gain political favor by posting on Dakka.

I'm saying that if you want censor to ideas with connotations to racism (ie future society dominated by white people) then by the same logic you should censor ideas with connotations to communism (ie forcing equality), so I said an entirely different thing.

No one here has suggested anyone be censored. Find me a quote of anyone in this thread saying that someone should not be allowed to produce media. That would be someone suggesting censorship. This is a straw man.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weirdly enough your insistence on using politically correct as a term for everything you don't like is an extremely Animal Farm use of language.

And honestly it's not messed up that I chose those things. More people have died in the 20th century from genocide than war.

Mustela wrote:
@Plumbumbarum

Are you saying that you have a problem with a dystopian society being portrayed as equal? If so that explains a lot, and then I could understand your logic. However, the Imperium in 40K isn't Marxist. It is certainly totalitarian, and akin to Stalin's government however.

Honestly, there is a language barrier. You said you fight for a "black free future." This means that you fight for a future in which there are no black people. What it seems that you meant is that you fight for a "free black future," which is something entirely different. Can you understand why I would ask you if you think racism is good? You are consistently unclear. Honestly, this would be easier to sort out if you didn't A) automatically assume that everyone not understanding what you meant was a result of their stupidity, B) you actually know anything about global race relations and how that affects people on a macro level, and C) that you actually know what politically correct means. I assure you that Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl is not trying to gain political favor by posting on Dakka.

I'm saying that if you want censor to ideas with connotations to racism (ie future society dominated by white people) then by the same logic you should censor ideas with connotations to communism (ie forcing equality), so I said an entirely different thing.

No one here has suggested anyone be censored. Find me a quote of anyone in this thread saying that someone should not be allowed to produce media. That would be someone suggesting censorship. This is a straw man.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weirdly enough your insistence on using politically correct as a term for everything you don't like is an extremely Animal Farm use of language.

And honestly it's not messed up that I chose those things. More people have died in the 20th century from genocide than war.

It's not language barrier, it's you picking on words and not following conversation. It's also me being overly vague and not explaining myself enough but that's because I'm posting on the phone. It's a chore to answers quotes directly also I hevere headache from using internet on it so I have to limit myself to one racist rant a day.

I never said I fight for black free future. It's what hybrid son of Oxyotl suggested I do among and I confirmed, in a flippant way or how do you say that.

It's not strawman, my suggestion of censorship. If enough people cry about lack of racial diversity GW might do it (and they will imo) because USA is a big market for them. It's not censorship in form of a commision not allowing books to be printed but there are many kinds of censorship. Call it social pressure or sth if you want, for me the suggestion of changing sf vision of future because it is not in line with current social trend is as close to censorship as enjoying white bald 40k Imperium seems to be close to joining ku klux klan for some.

It's not 40k that is marxist, it's correcting works of fiction according to some political/ social ideas that is marxist, as in marxist TV theory etc.

But yes I do have a problem with dystopian society described as equal, thank you. Especialy and xenophobic society, it just doesn't make sense.

If it's not messed up that you chose those thing, why dont you choose the extremly negative portrayal of religion. Or soviet based commisairs being shown as heroes of mankind. It's all about black people and women now apparently and that's in line with what political correctness nowadays is, extremly selective overeaction.

Less semantics please.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
There can be millions of them in the fluff but they're not in the art and that's good.

Sure. Do not forget to showcase your ignorance in every possible occasion. There are not one, not two, but three female Inquisitor models for 40k, and female Inquisitors are displayed in a lot of artwork. You just have no idea what you are talking about.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Also I didn't even say that women ARE treated like I described but that they SHOULD be treated like that for the sake of integrity of the vision.So, a reading comprehension fail.

I love it when people go out of their way to contradict creators on what their vision is. Plain and simple, you demonstrated very well you have no idea what the vision for 40k is.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I like equality in real life, I dont like equality in a marxist sense.

Ah. So, displaying female Inquisitors is equality in a Marxist sense. Who cares about things like “meaning” when you can use buzzword and random bad associations.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
My 'ignorance' of the setting, what do you mean?

I mean that from the inception of 40k, there has never been any racism associated to the Imperium, ever, and the hate has always been directed at mutants and abhumans. I mean that basically as soon as the High Lord were introduced, some of them have been women.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
The few odd examples? Books so canon defining that all those black and women characters never make it to the art?

Rather, I mean all the art that display them and that you have never seen. That is your ignorance.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
If you want 40k anyway, don't expect it to change according to your sensibilities

So, why are you trying to change 40k to fit your own perceived “integrity of vision” delirium?

3dog wrote:
As a white Muslim that is possibly the most mind numbingly wrong thing I've ever read.

Yeah, it is pretty damn wrong.

Mustela wrote:
@Mysterious Pants

That's a fair explanation. However, 40K is fantasy, a place that people escape to. Not everyone's perfect escape involves a single race and a gender imbalance. It seems a little messed up to me if you escape to a reality where there is arbitrarily only white people and a gender imbalance. Some people, like you, have offered speculation as to why there might only be white people. While I don't think there's anything wrong with that, there are just as many explanations for why there would be racial diversity. And honestly, why not have more racial diversity? I don't see what that changes. I'm pretty sure a little creativity can solve whatever potential issue people throw out.

I can see how social justice can be annoying when you're trying to have fun but I try to follow the tenets of: real world > fake world and real people > fake people.

And the bottom line which I support is that you can paint your models any way you want and anyone who actually cares how you paint them can go themselves.

I think, there are plenty of problems with that approach to fiction.

1) If you take it seriously, then every fictional work ever has to follow this rule. That means, if I create a fictional setting, no matter how far away into the future or how far away into the past, no matter how fundamentally different it is from our world, it HAS to represent 21st century US demographics. This idea alone is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

2) I'm not even sure, what the problem is.

You say, some people might not be comfortable to escape to a place with a single race and gender imbalace. So apparently they are still confortable escaping to a place, where human life has absolutely no worth and is thrown away by the millions just to have minor military victories. Where there is exactly one religion and if you don't follow it, you're going to get killed. Where people are hoarded to planet earth like animals, so the one true ruler of mankind can consume their souls... but gender imbalance really is a deal breaker!
Doesn't make sense to me.

Others have said, there should be people that look like you, so everyone feels represented. The thing is, there is nobody in 40k that looks like me! I'm 5 ft 7, 155 lbs and wear glasses. Who exactly looks like me. You pick ONE external characteristic, skin color, ignore everything else and then make representation about this one thing. That's arbitrary.

3) Building on the last point: It's a slippery slope. You want black people represented in 40k, fine. But now obviously you need hispanic, asian and arabic people as well, so you put in those. Now you've got all the big ethnicities covered, but what about the smaller ones? What about the native americans and polynesians, that don't feel represented? Ok, so we put in every possible ethnicity, that exist today and we're done right?
But what about the disabled people? Shouldn't they be represented as well? What about transgender people? And gay people? What about people with autism? What about Little People? What about amputees?
So we are not done, until we have a gay 4 ft 5 transgender autistic Space Marine, that may or may not have native alaskan heritage...

4) To me this approach to fiction KILLS immersion. And I'm convinced, that most people of the affected groups feel the same way. When you see this happening (and most of the time it's blatantly obvious) you're starting to think of real-world politics and stop thinking about the world you're trying to experience, which kills the fun.

This is one of the worst problem of "everything is political". TV shows are political, books are political, music is political, movies are political and 40k is political. Ironically the people suffering the most from this, are the ones trying to push this agenda. Can they even enjoy ANY media anymore? How can you enjoy something, when all you're thinking about is "Let's see how well everyone is represented in this"? How can you get lost in a work of fiction, when all you do, is trying to judge how well this supports your political goals?

In short: Keep politics where they belong! There are more than enough real-world issues in need of solving, where your commitment to social justice is well placed and productive (Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, etc.) But if you're taking your politics to places, that are supposed to be a fun escape from the real world, and taking them back into the real world in the process, all you're doing is alienating people and hurting your cause. (especially as it might not even be a problem, see point 2)

Plumbumbarum wrote:

I never said I fight for black free future. It's what hybrid son of Oxyotl suggested I do among and I confirmed, in a flippant way or how do you say that.

You literally did. Seriously, go back and look. Those are your exact words.

It's not strawman, my suggestion of censorship. If enough people cry about lack of racial diversity GW might do it (and they will imo) because USA is a big market for them. It's not censorship in form of a commision not allowing books to be printed but there are many kinds of censorship. Call it social pressure or sth if you want, for me the suggestion of changing sf vision of future because it is not in line with current social trend is as close to censorship as enjoying white bald 40k Imperium seems to be close to joining ku klux klan for some.

That's not censorship. Them not earning a profit from their fiction is entirely different from them not being able to express it.

It's not 40k that is marxist, it's correcting works of fiction according to some political/ social ideas that is marxist, as in marxist TV theory etc.

But yes I do have a problem with dystopian society described as equal, thank you. Especialy and xenophobic society, it just doesn't make sense.

That clears up a lot. Thank you.

If it's not messed up that you chose those thing, why dont you choose the extremly negative portrayal of religion. Or soviet based commisairs being shown as heroes of mankind. It's all about black people and women now apparently and that's in line with what political correctness nowadays is, extremly selective overeaction.

Less semantics please.

Code this goes for you as well.

I honestly don't care that much about what color GW paints their models. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with people wanting some more diversity in their game. There are very understandable reasons for why that might be. Not sure now I'm overreacting. Not sure how I'm saying everything has to represent 21st century demographics. Honestly diversity is still pretty rare in most parts of the world, so 21st century demographics are well represented. Part of it, as Plumbumbarum as suggested is that 40K is a hell hole of an epic scale. It's not portraying all the bad things as good, it's portraying them as truly terrible. When it comes to being mono-race there is no mention. If there was some sort of state sponsored cleansing or whatever reason, no one seems to care that most of the non white people and women are gone. It is NEVER portrayed as an important part of the 40K universe. If you can have your own personal interpretation are others allowed to theirs?

Quite frankly if that ruins 40K for you you have no creativity.

 Code wrote:
But now obviously you need hispanic, asian and arabic people as well, so you put in those.

Crimson fists, White Scars, Tallarn Desert Raiders.

 Code wrote:
What about the native americans and polynesians, that don't feel represented?

Dark Angels, and… uh, I do not know.

 Code wrote:
But what about the disabled people? Shouldn't they be represented as well?

Karamazov . That guy got the most epic whellchair replacement in the whole of 40k. Or, see amputee below. In 40k, if you are valuable, they fix you, possibly in ways that are worse than death.

 Code wrote:
What about transgender people? And gay people? What about people with autism?

How do you tell them apart on a miniature?

 Code wrote:
What about Little People?

Ratlings.

 Code wrote:
What about amputees?

That one is easy! Iron Hands! Dreadnought! Servitors!

 Code wrote:
4) To me this approach to fiction KILLS immersion.

Seeing a black space marine or imperial guard kills your immersion?
Literally noone ever saw my black Sisters of Battle and said “Oh, your army kills my immersion”. The worst I got was “But Sisters are supposed to be pure” or some similar horrible stuff.
(And they are not black for political reasons. I could not care less about that when I started the army. It is just that the first time I painted human flesh, on a Iron Hand Deathwatch marine for Inquisitor, I used a lot of brown ink for the shadows, and thought “Hey, that does not look bad. How about painting him black”, and then went on to do the same for my Sisters I started shortly after.)

I would like to point out one thing. That Poland is a more or less monolith as far as race, diversity, culture goes. Also with no small thanks to our neighbors, Poland as a nation has roots in small rural communities. This does shape the way one thinks. So if someone thinks about romans in power armor, a blond dude in blue armor pops up in everyones mind here. And a black commander of fleet will feel strange and un ultramarinelike. And the fact that there was a ton of iberian, african or far eastern legioners won't matter much.

A non white dicatator doesn't feel like a real dictator, because the common knowladge tells everyone here that dictators are white. Women don't hold positions of power, and if they do it is a part of power play between man etc.

So yeah for someone who is polish a black space marine, who is not from a rasta chapter, breaks immersion.

Does Al'rahem sound British-inspired to you?

It does.

Makumba wrote:

A non white dicatator doesn't feel like a real dictator, because the common knowladge tells everyone here that dictators are white. Women don't hold positions of power, and if they do it is a part of power play between man etc.

Tell that to any of the victims of Idi Amin, or Robert Mugabe.

Makumba wrote:
I would like to point out one thing. That Poland is a more or less monolith as far as race, diversity, culture goes. Also with no small thanks to our neighbors, Poland as a nation has roots in small rural communities. This does shape the way one thinks.

Well, should 40k cater to Polish people over the rest of the world?

Makumba wrote:
So if someone thinks about romans in power armor, a blond dude in blue armor pops up in everyones mind here.

I am pretty sure this is very historically inaccurate. I mean, even not taking into account that the Roman Empire was basically all around the Mediterranean sea and included therefore people from various physical types, even if we restrict the discussion to people from Italy… have you ever been to Italy? Seen many blond people there?
Polish misconception about romans are just misconception, from a very specific country, that is not even a big market for GW, and that certainly should not dictate what 40k should be.

Makumba wrote:
A non white dicatator doesn't feel like a real dictator, because the common knowladge tells everyone here that dictators are white.

So, are you saying Polish people suck at geopolitic? Kroll already mentioned various African dictators that, well, are not white, but I am surprised that someone who likes to mention Communism so much would totally forget about all those Asian Communist dictators. Have Polish people not heard of the Kim dynasty? Or the Khmers Rouges? Or Mao Zedong?

Makumba wrote:
Women don't hold positions of power, and if they do it is a part of power play between man etc.

40k is not “Poland in Space”. Women in positions of power are now a matter of fact even very close from Poland. Polish people have to know about neighboring Germany, and if they can process Angela Merkel is Chancellor at this very time a few kilometers away from Poland, then they should be able to process women being High Lords in the far future of 40k too.

Makumba wrote:

Does Al'rahem sound British-inspired to you?

It does.

Well, it is not. It is Arab inspired. Just like his garb.
Tallarn is populated by rival tribes. Just like ancient Arabia and modern Saudi Arabia, and unlike modern-day Britain, or ancient Britain as for that matter.

40k is maybe contradicting a bunch of false preconceptions by Polish people about the world. That is certainly not a reason to have 40k change though, actually having Polish people give up their false preconceptions would be way better.

@Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl

I don't think that's Makumba's personal opinion, I think it's just an explanation of why some people in Poland think about this issue the way they do.

You are right, I kind of confused him with Plumbumbarum. No avatar and same country flag and all that. Edited.

I remember seeing a few black guardsman in the old catachan codex. At the time I thought, why are there not more black character? Not too shabby for a 10 year old!

I was thinking the same thing at the time and then painting around 5-6 of my own guardsmen black. I also remember my dad telling me to tone it down a bit! Think thought I was gonna paint my entire army as if they were black!

Also remember seeing a completely black army painted by a white player at warhammer world a few years ago..... which seemed weird in my head but whatever!

It's not really important in terms of how players themselves paint their figures, but would be nice to see more in the official fluff. If this was fantasy though there wouldn't be much of an issue.

This is one of the worst problem of "everything is political". TV shows are political, books are political, music is political, movies are political and 40k is political. Ironically the people suffering the most from this, are the ones trying to push this agenda. Can they even enjoy ANY media anymore? How can you enjoy something, when all you're thinking about is "Let's see how well everyone is represented in this"? How can you get lost in a work of fiction, when all you do, is trying to judge how well this supports your political goals?

I tend to agree to this conclusion, because I am seldom annoyed by the constant politization of things some angry militants are trying to make. But after reading pretty much everything in this thread, some questions are always popping in my head. And I prefer make it crystal clera right now ; I don't think GW is racist or something.

Somebody said earlier most of white people are victims of colour-blindness phenomenom, when you can't understand criticism coming form coloured people who actually suffer from racism, or more simply you don't care about representation because you were never confronted to this issue being a white westerner. I'm convinced GW does not purposely chose not to paint coloured people, they just ignore them because they don't even think about representation. 40k is their creation, and they created it in their image. They are white westerners and thus, humans in 40k are white. This has strictly no fluffy reason to be such, but it is. A galactic-spanning empire, a million word, a million specific conditions, but still, one colour ? That's highly and utterly unlikely. Look at our current planet and you'll have a clue.

GW painting is not mean, it's not racist, but it is certainly the outcome of well-rooted white mindset which is sometimes affected by cultural racism.

I think it is legitimate for the coloured people to be pissed off by the lack of identification they feel. Moreover, it is quite easy to mock them when you are white and every single mini of the range is an overmanly powerful white dude (same reasoning can be applicable to gender). If you chose to play the Blood Angels, the Space Wolves or any other chapter and the only thing you see everywhere in 40k material are Ultramarines, would you feel identifed ? Would you like to see how your beloved scifi universe don't even try to make you part of it?

Saying nothing is wrong with 40k and representation in it is useless is not a crime but certainly ain't ridden of colour-blindness. And the mere facts that the huge majority of players are white male westerners and that the huge majority of GW staff is white male westerners is no coincidence.

Racism seems not to be a credible explanation for this, but none of us are sociologists and are able to shed light on these issues so we'll probably never find out.