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That's not necessarily true until we read the rules for sure.

Skarbrand is identical to his 6th edition codex rules when they released the model. If they just reprint the rules, that's a big missed opportunity. I'd buy the guy if his rules were better but now I can't justify it cause he BLOWS.

I doubt they would make him a gargantuan though, he's the same size as the bloodthirsters, and they're still just MC's. They didn't even get a strength or Toughness bump despite the model doubling in size.

I wonder if the daemon prince formation will be Belakor +3 others. If they're including his dataslate, perhaps he has a part in the campaign.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
That's not necessarily true until we read the rules for sure.

Seeing as we know that for example, Tzeentch's Firestorm - likely the single worst psychic power in the entire game is 100% copied from the codex, I don't want to get my hopes up in any way that Tzeentch will get fixed at all.

It's be nice, but at this point, considering how GW have treated Chaos in general over the past 10 years, we shouldn't really expect to be much more than the SW's punching bag in this supplement.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Skarbrand is identical to his 6th edition codex rules when they released the model. If they just reprint the rules, that's a big missed opportunity. I'd buy the guy if his rules were better but now I can't justify it cause he BLOWS.

I doubt they would make him a gargantuan though, he's the same size as the bloodthirsters, and they're still just MC's. They didn't even get a strength or Toughness bump despite the model doubling in size.

I wonder if the daemon prince formation will be Belakor +3 others. If they're including his dataslate, perhaps he has a part in the campaign.

Greater Daemons in general need a massive overhaul! (and definitely NOT being shoehorned into GMC status!!)

It's utterly moronic that the Bloodthirster, despite being visibly nothing but muscle on muscle & the physical manifestation of rage incarnate, is still S6! Meanwhile, you give the LoC his kung-fu stick and he can golf shot Marines with S8?!
Yeah, that makes a tone of sense - forge that narrative!

Likewise, the GUO should ideally go back to being T8 and 6 wounds, etc...
Basically, give them back their old statlines from back in the day.

I doubt that Be'lakor is going to get a nerf bat pounding. Probably just print word for word his e-device only rules into the book. Mind you, if they do nerf him, (likely by removing his essentially "Loremaster - Telepathy" ability, then we'll know for sure that GW truly hates Chaos!)

Yeah I don't have my hopes up too much either, I'm just saying it's not 100% certain we won't get something nice. A formation can do alot, relics can bump a unit quite reasonably in effectiveness, the psychic powers could be good.. I know what they say about hope, but I still have a wee bit.

Agreed entirely on our monsters. They're all still cool, but they need reworking. The bloodthirster model in particular makes you double take at his S and T stats. It's hard to believe.

If they nerf Belakor, I quit. He's soo many points for what he does. He can be killed more easily than other daemon princes because he lacks access to rewards. I don't use him very much because it's just so much points for a t5 w4 model. Only in our group tournaments will I pull him out, and I'm essentially just hiding him all game and casting invisibility, it doesn't feel incredibly effective. It feels... not that fun. And it makes him seem more like a weakling support unit when he's supposed to be the first fething daemon prince, a badass if there ever was one.

Daemon princes should be T6, but I would settle for eternal warrior...

Well, Atia mentioned over on B&C that she'll be doing a rules dump on the 11th, so one week from tomorrow, we'll be able to see just how good/bad/awful/rage-quit-inducing our new Band-Aid turns out!

As a Tzeentchian devotee, my current predictions are that;
1. The new psychic lores will be 'meh' overall. Slaanesh will get the best of it & get a couple spells that can fudge Ld, thus making Psy Shriek & Caco Choir nasty as feth.
Tzeentch will get the shaft and still be the worst of the three.

2. We'll get 2 really good formations, though our Daemoncurion will be lackluster but at least with a very cheap Core requirement ala Khornekin.

3. The Grimoire will get re-worded in a similar manner to the MoT in the CSM codex, in that it can't boost invulns beyond 3++.
One or two of the new relics will be decent, the rest trash.

4. We'll get 1 gimmicky trick/list that will still be on a lower level than the current Decurion 'Crons/Gladius/Hunter Cadre/Eldar cheese, but non-Chaos players will declare it the most OP thing to have ever existed in 40k and call for a complete banning of it in every game from here on out!
(because at no time are Chaos players EVER allowed to have nice things it seems...)

Ooh, are we into the prediction stage? (Not wishlisting, because this is Chaos and we're a jaded bunch). Goody, that's my favorite part! Ok, here we go:

1. The first clue that they phoned it in (again): Flickering Fire will be copy-pasted from the current rule and will still require house rules to use.

2. The "new" psychic powers will be the powers from CSM Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle tables. Symphony of Pain and Boon of Mutation will require CSM allies to use.

3. Be'lakor will lose telepathy. Instead he'll randomly generate each of his 3 powers from a randomly determined table (Change, Excess or Plague - roll a D3 each time). But he'll get TRIPLE Chaos Psychic Focus (!!!). +25 pts cost hike.

4. Each god will get a formation requiring a minimum of 4 units of lesser daemons. The decurion will require all 4 as core plus 1 auxiliary. The bonuses will be reroll deep strike scatter and -1 to Fear tests. No objective secured.

Experiment 626 wrote:


1. The new psychic lores will be 'meh' overall. Slaanesh will get the best of it & get a couple spells that can fudge Ld, thus making Psy Shriek & Caco Choir nasty as feth.
Tzeentch will get the shaft and still be the worst of the three.

I still wouldn't waste 25 pts to maybe roll -1 LD, to boost another psy power. That's a loosing strategy right there. Beside thy won't change the Primaris powers weak sauce as the are. What they should do is take the powers they gave "The Masque" [who no one ever takes] and make them psypowers. But they won't.

Experiment 626 wrote:


2. We'll get 2 really good formations, though our Daemoncurion will be lackluster but at least with a very cheap Core requirement ala Khornekin.

Your probably right. Here's hoping.

Experiment 626 wrote:


3. The Grimoire will get re-worded in a similar manner to the MoT in the CSM codex, in that it can't boost invulns beyond 3++.
One or two of the new relics will be decent, the rest trash.

Sounds about right.

Experiment 626 wrote:


4. We'll get 1 gimmicky trick/list that will still be on a lower level than the current Decurion 'Crons/Gladius/Hunter Cadre/Eldar cheese, but non-Chaos players will declare it the most OP thing to have ever existed in 40k and call for a complete banning of it in every game from here on out!
(because at no time are Chaos players EVER allowed to have nice things it seems...)

Sob....please don't let this be true.

I am going to go ahead and stand over here where we wait until we see anything before crying and playing victim.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Ooh, are we into the prediction stage? (Not wishlisting, because this is Chaos and we're a jaded bunch). Goody, that's my favorite part! Ok, here we go:

1. The first clue that they phoned it in (again): Flickering Fire will be copy-pasted from the current rule and will still require house rules to use.

2. The "new" psychic powers will be the powers from CSM Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle tables. Symphony of Pain and Boon of Mutation will require CSM allies to use.

3. Be'lakor will lose telepathy. Instead he'll randomly generate each of his 3 powers from a randomly determined table (Change, Excess or Plague - roll a D3 each time). But he'll get TRIPLE Chaos Psychic Focus (!!!). +25 pts cost hike.

4. Each god will get a formation requiring a minimum of 4 units of lesser daemons. The decurion will require all 4 as core plus 1 auxiliary. The bonuses will be reroll deep strike scatter and -1 to Fear tests. No objective secured.

1. Well, yeah that's what they do now a days.

2. I could almost see them do that. Ecstatic Seizures wouldn't be so bad, and I take CSM Slaanesh Primaris over the current Daemon one any day. the but yeah Symphony of Pain...LOL.

3. LOL! Even GW would not be that dumb.....maybe.

4. I hadn't even thought of them require all four god for the decurion. But being GW the will almost certainly do that.

Cadian Detachments got new Warlord Traits and Relics in the Mont'ka book that are in addition to the ones already in the Astra Militarum book - there's now two Warlord Trait and Relic tables to choose from for a Cadian Detachment. I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that the Chaos Demon Relics are getting changed especially when the Chaos Demon codex itself is not getting updated.

However, the dataslate for Skarbrand is odd - the rules for him are already in the Chaos Demon codex and they didn't change when his new model came out and included rules in the box. That has to be a change in his rules, even if it is just changing him to a Lord of War. Be'lakor makes a little more sense since he's a Digital Only dataslate atm, however if you use the Officio Assassinorum dataslate as a reference - that didn't change when it went from its last digital dataslate to the White Dwarf and Mont'ka physical copies.

Just a thought would they give Chaos a simple buy what you want list for relics, or make them random like the rewards tables?

I'm guessing it will replace an exalted reward like before.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I'm guessing it will replace an exalted reward like before.

Or... What if these new relics are taken instead of any other Gifts?!

GW loves to double *****-slap Chaos, so why not give us a handful of mediocre new relics that also prevent us from taking our other random Gifts?! It's the perfect kind of lose-lose that Chaos players have become totally accustomed to!

 Sersi wrote:
Just a thought would they give Chaos a simple buy what you want list for relics, or make them random like the rewards tables?

They're not random at the moment though - you pay for an Exalted Reward and then swap whatever you roll for the Relic of your choice. If relics were random, then no-one would take them because you'd pay all those points for something that could be useless for you. The saving grace of the Reward system at the moment is the ability to swap out the result for the Lesser/Greater Magic Weapon or the Relic of your choice.

Well, 626, that's not altogether too different from how it is now, any herald gives up his rewards for a relic and you don't have enough point allotment to take anything other than a relic and a greater reward or 2 Lesser on a MC.

I would be very pleasantly surprised if you could take these relics without damaging your ability to take other rewards.

That would actually be pretty awesome. I like the rewards as is but putting a relic on someone that isn't the grimoire on a disc herald always makes me miss that greater reward.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Just a thought would they give Chaos a simple buy what you want list for relics, or make them random like the rewards tables?

They're not random at the moment though - you pay for an Exalted Reward and then swap whatever you roll for the Relic of your choice. If relics were random, then no-one would take them because you'd pay all those points for something that could be useless for you. The saving grace of the Reward system at the moment is the ability to swap out the result for the Lesser/Greater Magic Weapon or the Relic of your choice.

Yeah your right I was the conflating relics with rewards.

Predictions...

AFAIK, GW doesn't invalidate any currently printed rules unless they redo the entire codex.

If Daemons are getting a mini-overhaul in a campaign supplement, the supplement will only be ADDITIVE, not modifying anything in the current Daemons codex, but giving new additional options. Probably they'll be exclusive with the codex stuff (eg, Hellforged artifacts from Codex OR Supplement but not both).

Eg, an expanded psychic discipline IF you take the Tzeentch formation. New relics IF you date the daemonicurion.

Also I'm going to hurt someone if Tzeentch doesn't get a 'WC on 2+' formation like marines and frikken guardsmen get. I kind of hope GW isn't that brainless, but at the same time Tzeentch should get something that good or better.

inb4 Tzeentch Formation bonus is get WC on a 6+!
FUN.

I believe they aren't changing anything that's already in the codex because that would make it a new codex, and they're not advertising this as a new codex. They're just expanding what's there so that it lines up with other current codicies, which tells me that they still have no plans for a new codex for at least another year or so. So consider what's coming to be expansion, nothing more.

EDIT: What Trasvi said.

Pics by Captain Citadel - SpikeyBits forum

I predict screamerstar returning...

P.S. I want to believe

Warhams-77 wrote:

Spoiler:

Pics by Captain Citadel - SpikeyBits forum

Kinda cool artstyle, actually; I like the Wulfen on that pic!

What about those Tzeentchian Daemons, though? I know they are a lot like the old models we know, but couldn't they be kinda different? I mean that set does need new models, so this could be an early sighting.

It'd be great if they did resemble that. Especially the horrors that look like a mass of shifting flesh.

Meh I'm not surprised so far. I was fully expecting Daemon to be the NPC of the book just like Cadians were with the Tau. No real update for chaos daemon or csm until the end times. See you in 2017!

Apart from the herald on disc and screamers the other beasts look unfamiliar with other tzeentch units. Especially the one with the tentacles..

 avedominusnox wrote:
Apart from the herald on disc and screamers the other beasts look unfamiliar with other tzeentch units. Especially the one with the tentacles..

The one with the beak looks to be a fury, and I think the many-eyed ones are standard pink horrors? Might the tentacled one be a spawn?

 Goliath wrote:

 avedominusnox wrote:
Apart from the herald on disc and screamers the other beasts look unfamiliar with other tzeentch units. Especially the one with the tentacles..

The one with the beak looks to be a fury, and I think the many-eyed ones are standard pink horrors? Might the tentacled one be a spawn?

Probably yes. It might be a spawn. Also considering the 4 princes image, it is interesting that the paint scheme might imply something about all 4 gods. But that's a theory only.

The tentacled one is a Flamer, I think. Just without any flames at the moment.

I also thought that was supposed to be a flamer.

The knee pad on the nurgle dp's face looks cool! I never thought of trying that.

The mighty indeed comment on the infernal formation concerns me the most.

I love my Daemons, and I'm really hoping this new book doesn't suck.