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Vaktathi wrote: You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GWHQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?
No. I mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.
Could've sworn the resin sprue's I just bought, have Games Workshop LTD on them. (They also have numbers on)
Don't bother. Jancoran thinks that there's a 500+ point deathstar with AM that works and thinks FW is the devil, all while playing in a CAAC environment.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Jancoran, the problem is look at what you'[re dedicating to kill three Riptides. That's ignoring the other 1400 points of the army. Honestly, you've a better shot of just ignoring the Riptide, killing all the squishies, and camping objectives than killing him, unless you have Psychic out the wazuu.
No problem at all. This was in direct response to someone wanting to know how to deal with that specific threat. I gave a specific answer. So no problem.
As for the rest of the army, i sort of imagine that this is a given. We understand that the rest of the army must be accounted for. I agree. And given a specific list I could advise more. But given none, this advice was good.
everything apparently, except none that couldnt be applied with the exact same logic to tons of stuff you didnt seem to mind, after which you'd typically just evade after such was pointed out
Much like you are now...speaking of being obtuse...
I do take it upon myself to try and keep things on topic as much as possible. and that does require me NOT to get troll'd by someone who insists on pursuing a subject that isn't really the point of the thread. is it completely avoidable? Nope. But I'm not into allowing myself to be troll'd anymore than possible. So yeah. i dont engage you when you troll me and i DONT see it as poor form. i see it as wise.
Could've sworn the resin sprue's I just bought, have Games Workshop LTD on them. (They also have numbers on)
That might be true and yet...has nothing to do with what I said, really.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Don't bother. Jancoran thinks that there's a 500+ point deathstar with AM that works and thinks FW is the devil, all while playing in a CAAC environment.
Oh goody. Look whose decided to try and drag his grudges in and start a fight! It's Slayer-Fan.
Well Slayer-Fan, we're not talking about IG in this thread. Moving on.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/02/12 00:02:39
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
4 Grav-Centurions do 5.761... wounds to an FNP riptide on average outside of cover. That's not even almost close to killing two Riptides, it's not even one wound over killing one. Further, in 4+ cover the Riptide with FNP takes on average 4.3... wounds from four Grav-cents, not counting the bolters. You'll note that 4.3 is less than the 5 wounds of the Riptide. 4 Grav-Cents with a slingshot bastion is also 420 points, at which point you're having to deal with almost two Riptides as opposed to one. As I said, not even Grav-centurions counter Riptides, and people in this thread are honestly advocating chasing it down with a Librarian and punching it to death.
A major reason for the abysmal power of BA or BT is the fact that Riptides exist in the first place.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: 4 Grav-Centurions do 5.761... wounds to an FNP riptide on average outside of cover. That's not even almost close to killing two Riptides, it's not even one wound over killing one. Further, in 4+ cover the Riptide with FNP takes on average 4.3... wounds from four Grav-cents, not counting the bolters. You'll note that 4.3 is less than the 5 wounds of the Riptide. 4 Grav-Cents with a slingshot bastion is also 420 points, at which point you're having to deal with almost two Riptides as opposed to one. As I said, not even Grav-centurions counter Riptides, and people in this thread are honestly advocating chasing it down with a Librarian and punching it to death.
A major reason for the abysmal power of BA or BT is the fact that Riptides exist in the first place.
Indeed. Even with my MANZ missiles or warbikers, its very hard to guarantee tying up a Riptide in CC or shooting it down in one turn and because MC's have no real way to locking down its firepower or movement like vehicles (outside of obscure/rare psychic powers or special abilities) for their points cost its unreasonable with how many points you have to invest to deal with it reliably. Sure taking out markerlights is an aspect of minimizing the damage they can cause but with new things like drone net formation making it even harder to prevent that and the Riptide's ridiculous combination of multi-layered protection, damage output and mobility it really needs an overhaul.
Akiasura wrote: Yeah, insulting everyone while offering nothing constructive at all. That'll show everyone how wrong they've been! 3 Grav Cents firing at a Riptide, if he has FnP, will not kill it on average. It's just basic math. You could get lucky and roll above the average, although it's more likely the Tau player will roll below his average in that case, but it's not a guarantee. And grav cents are the one unit in the game designed to kill Riptides. The vast majority of armies need to get into melee combat in order to silence the guns this thing is sporting, and reaching melee with a fast unit that has incredibly long range weapons is no small feat. There are only a few armies that can manage it before turn 4 (Necrons, SM come to mind).How do most armies handle this reasonably? Because the last time this came up, someone mentioned a single dominion squad. That....didn't work out.
Constantly complaining about something that has already been covered in multiple threads isn't constructive either, just saying. Its not an insult so don't take it as one, just pointing out the constant "Riptide OP" talk that seems to take over any Tau thread is getting old and been proven false. Martel no you haven't proven anything, its been well established if your BA cant kick the crap out of it that means it must be OP. Also plenty of people including me have offered constructive thinking in other threads, yet as usual they are all ignored and drowned out by the cries of "nerf it till its usless!".
And I really don't understand the comments of "I can never catch a Riptide". If you are playing on a 6x4 table it is really not that hard at all, everytime I hear this I have to take it as an exaggeration because its quite frankly foolish to think that you cant catch one with only a 6 inch movement and random 2d6 movement on top of a large base on a standard 6x4 table. Also for whoever brought up Chaos its no secret that you are comparing an old Codex to a recently updated one, the CSM need an update bad but the Cultist Swarm tactic as mentioned is actually a decent one. Khorne Demonkin and Demon Prince spam is also an effective way to drop Riptides via being better MC's in CC and having psychic shenanigans but as mentioned CSM struggle against ALL of the 7.5 Codex's, it is a lack of update issue not just the fault of the Tau. Also LoS blocking terrain goes a long way as well and terrain in general, take out the Marker Lights (which has been explained repeatedly) and terrain becomes an advantage.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/12 01:04:50
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
Bring faster units. Adapt. Stop taking nothing but special weapons and start thinking a little more globally. I dont know what the answer truly is for any one persons list. i DO know that constructive ideas do more for your results than moping.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Akiasura wrote: Yeah, insulting everyone while offering nothing constructive at all. That'll show everyone how wrong they've been! 3 Grav Cents firing at a Riptide, if he has FnP, will not kill it on average. It's just basic math. You could get lucky and roll above the average, although it's more likely the Tau player will roll below his average in that case, but it's not a guarantee. And grav cents are the one unit in the game designed to kill Riptides. The vast majority of armies need to get into melee combat in order to silence the guns this thing is sporting, and reaching melee with a fast unit that has incredibly long range weapons is no small feat. There are only a few armies that can manage it before turn 4 (Necrons, SM come to mind).How do most armies handle this reasonably? Because the last time this came up, someone mentioned a single dominion squad. That....didn't work out.
Constantly complaining about something that has already been covered in multiple threads isn't constructive either, just saying. Its not an insult so don't take it as one, just pointing out the constant "Riptide OP" talk that seems to take over any Tau thread is getting old and been proven false.
It's not constructive, I'll grant you that, but you flat out insulted people in your original post. If it was quoted here, I'd do you the favor of bolding it since you might be unaware.
Regardless, no one has proven anything. If it was proven, a quick link or repeat would quash the thread rather quickly.
Martel no you haven't proven anything, its been well established if your BA cant kick the crap out of it that means it must be OP. Also plenty of people including me have offered constructive thinking in other threads, yet as usual they are all ignored and drowned out by the cries of "nerf it till its usless!".
I've yet to see any constructive advice in this thread or the other threads mentioning the riptides that isn't "Take grav cents" or incredibly exaggerated claims. I'm not saying you've made such claims, but things like Force weapons, a dominion squad, and 4 grav cents tackling 2 have been suggested. And none of those are reasonable.
Grav does work, but only 1 army has good access to grav. It's hardly a good solution.
And I really don't understand the comments of "I can never catch a Riptide". If you are playing on a 6x4 table it is really not that hard at all, everytime I hear this I have to take it as an exaggeration because its quite frankly foolish to think that you cant catch one with only a 6 inch movement and random 2d6 movement on top of a large base on a standard 6x4 table.
The reason it's sounding like an exaggeration is because you are misunderstanding what is being said.
Given 6 turns, most units can catch the Riptide. That's hardly useful, it's done 6 turns of damage after all and it's got good firepower. Even the faster units, like jump packs, still won't reach melee until T4. That's...okay, but in 4 turns it likely has done enough damage.
Bikes are the only units that are fast enough to catch the riptide in a reasonable amount of time, outside of teleporting/deepstriking and hoping the rest of the tau army doesn't wipe the squad out. It takes an absurd amount of deep striking points to kill a riptide, and unlike a vehicle, it operates quite well at any wound amount.
Even if it deploys opposite you, a unit with jump packs in 3 turns will only cross 36 + 21 on average run distance. On a board that is 72" across that isn't good enough to catch it, assuming it doesn't move at all.
That's why people are saying its very hard to catch the Riptide. Because it is, before it has done it's damage. By the end of the game, sure I'll catch it. But who cares?
I believe I provided a breakdown like this earlier.
Also for whoever brought up Chaos its no secret that you are comparing an old Codex to a recently updated one, the CSM need an update bad but the Cultist Swarm tactic as mentioned is actually a decent one. Khorne Demonkin and Demon Prince spam is also an effective way to drop Riptides via being better MC's in CC and having psychic shenanigans but as mentioned CSM struggle against ALL of the 7.5 Codex's, it is a lack of update issue not just the fault of the Tau. Also LoS blocking terrain goes a long way as well and terrain in general, take out the Marker Lights (which has been explained repeatedly) and terrain becomes an advantage.
I agree that the Chaos dex is awful, but the cultist swarm is a terrible strategy against tau. You're talking about an army (not just the riptide) that can spam Str 5 guns with removes cover relatively easily available. Tau destroy armies that rely on cover, like cultists do.
I play tau as well, and I can't tell you the last time I was charged by basic infantry. It's usually TWC or Wraiths, occasionally some kind of star, usually Turn 4 or so unless I move forward for some reason.
Taking out the marker lights is easier said than done. I don't think I've lost mine before Turn 5, and rarely lose a significant amount before Turn 3. You really need them gone ASAP before the riptide has time to practically delete a few squads.
If someone wants to put forward a valid strategy that isn't "Take OP option from codex X, apply to face" I'll listen. Grav cents being a solution to most problems isn't exactly news
Relapse wrote: Rich Kilton beat a 3 Riptide army with his Orks at the LVO. I'll ask him what his full army was, but I know it was mainly boyz without any Gargants.
A wild guess would be he beat them by ignoring the Riptides and killing everything else.
Relapse wrote: Rich Kilton beat a 3 Riptide army with his Orks at the LVO. I'll ask him what his full army was, but I know it was mainly boyz without any Gargants.
A wild guess would be he beat them by ignoring the Riptides and killing everything else.
I've seen him beat a three Wraithknight army by chasing down and killing all the Knights, but I can ask him the particulars on his game and get back to you.
Constantly complaining about something that has already been covered in multiple threads isn't constructive either, just saying.
And yet it happens. A lot.
Maybe you're forgetting your own participation in the many "ITC Hates Tau" threads of late. We all do it. Don't be judgmental about it. I've wasted a lot of time and energy ranting about Blood Angels. I realize it isn't productive, but it doesn't mean I won't again in the future.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/12 06:08:50
In 7.5, Riptides aren't so bad, compared to other really good 7.5 stuff. And 7.5 is oozing with really good stuff.
Compared to 7.0 and older books, they're awesomely powerful (but they were before 7.5 too). They weren't particularly more powerful than the most egregious offenders like wave serpents or invisibility, and point-for-point they sure aren't better than 7e Wraithknights. But that's kinda like saying I like the Corvette, but the Ferrari is nicer.
And if you're playing Blood Angels (Martel <3 ), it's like you're trying to compete in a Geo. But then again, if I'm playing BA or DE (or any of the "worst" factions), *any* game can feel like that on a strictly point-to-point basis.
Generally speaking in the current game, which has a mix of 7.5, 7.0, and 6.0 armies, most armies can tailor a solution to Riptides OR have some type of MSU that will be victorious, but the issue is that the Riptides are stupid easy to command, whereas defeating them often requires clever play; and even then, sometimes, it only works if you trick your enemy because they're unprepared or unfamiliar with what you're fielding. And that's mostly the problem with a lot of popular armies from 6e Wave Serpents to Necron Decurion to 7e scatterbikes and 7e Tau -- it's not that they can't be beat, it's just that you have to be a far superior player and outplay them; whereas any idiot can play models that stay out of range, are hard to kill, T1 alpha, etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/12 07:56:48
I see the typical L2P trolls are out in force in this thread.
Riptides are killable, but it takes the tau player throwing them away wantonly or being inept/new to the game or otherwise just not caring.
I've killed Riptides before, but not before they did a tremendous amount of damage to my army.
Leadership manipulation is a tricky way to do it, but outside of one very specific (space marine only) formation, and two very specific powers on two different psychic trees, which one may or may not successfully roll up, few armies can really hope to have anything like this.
Lastly, Assault isn't a leadership attack. It's farking assault, and hopefully one can win that assault and sweeping advance an opponent if they lose and then fail their resulting morale check. Make no mistake however, GETTING to assault can be difficult in the extreme for some armies.
Just offering my opinion on that. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.
I would initially like to apologize on behalf of all Tau players that GW made rules for a Walker as a MC. If you'd like to write up some rules fixing every model that has been done that way, play test them, and balance them out go for it submit them to GW, and hope for the best. Let me give some suggestions:
Riptide (all variants) -> Walker
Storm Surge -> super heavy walker (open topped)
Wraithknight (all variants -> super heavy walker
Eldar Dreadnau.. I mean wraith lord (all variants) -> walker
Dreadknight -> walker (open topped)
Cronos/Talos -> debatable
Those are the outliers I can see, I may be missing some. Beyond house ruling those models, we're stuck with what we have, or you can just ban everything you don't like, pack your ball and go home. I got into Tau because I loved the aesthetics, and the initial background was completely different from everything else in 40k. It was back when the only suits we had were Crisis, stealth, and Broadsides, and all of those were extremely limited in how many you could field.
I was honestly upset when I saw the stormsurge become a GC. I WANTED a super heavy walker. I built an IK army because I WANTED super heavy walkers. When I played in 2nd edition all I wanted was dreadnaughts backed by terminators. What’s cooler than a guy wired into a walking GUN TOMB followed by smaller versions of the same thing!
I just want to play my little game of toy soldiers with what I have available and default to the more CONSERVATIVE ruling when something is in a grey area. If it doesn’t appear grey I don’t argue it. I take it at face value and play the game written for me. I didn’t like seeing D weapons enter the game, then I got over it as I saw the power escalation from everywhere else. I didn’t like invisibility because of how “OMG SUPER UBER POWERFUL” it was, until I shot one off the board because he failed his check on turn 3. I didn’t like fliers, but the models are cool and hey, it adds a different element to the game (I still struggle against cron air). I still don’t like summoning, but I’ve only played against it twice, and both times I did the best I could and walked away with no personal damage done to my psyche.
My honest suggestion, don’t blame players who like their army because the rules aren’t to your taste. I can find at least one thing in each army I don’t like or think needs to be nerfed (SoB and CSM are an exception to that), but in the end it’s still a game, and if my opponent wants to put 5 wraithknights on the board, so be it. I like playing against super “competitive/broken” armies just for the challenge and to see how I can do. I’ve lost many, won a few, and always shook the guy across the boards hand every time, before, and after the game. If every time you play against a certain army you don’t enjoy it, try seeing if it’s the army you don’t like, or if maybe you or your opponent just need an attitude adjustment.
Talys wrote: In my humble opinion, for what it's worth...
In 7.5, Riptides aren't so bad, compared to other really good 7.5 stuff. And 7.5 is oozing with really good stuff.
Compared to 7.0 and older books, they're awesomely powerful (but they were before 7.5 too). They weren't particularly more powerful than the most egregious offenders like wave serpents or invisibility, and point-for-point they sure aren't better than 7e Wraithknights. But that's kinda like saying I like the Corvette, but the Ferrari is nicer.
And if you're playing Blood Angels (Martel <3 ), it's like you're trying to compete in a Geo. But then again, if I'm playing BA or DE (or any of the "worst" factions), *any* game can feel like that on a strictly point-to-point basis.
Generally speaking in the current game, which has a mix of 7.5, 7.0, and 6.0 armies, most armies can tailor a solution to Riptides OR have some type of MSU that will be victorious, but the issue is that the Riptides are stupid easy to command, whereas defeating them often requires clever play; and even then, sometimes, it only works if you trick your enemy because they're unprepared or unfamiliar with what you're fielding. And that's mostly the problem with a lot of popular armies from 6e Wave Serpents to Necron Decurion to 7e scatterbikes and 7e Tau -- it's not that they can't be beat, it's just that you have to be a far superior player and outplay them; whereas any idiot can play models that stay out of range, are hard to kill, T1 alpha, etc.
What if he fields Riptides and is the superior player?
Talys wrote: In my humble opinion, for what it's worth...
In 7.5, Riptides aren't so bad, compared to other really good 7.5 stuff. And 7.5 is oozing with really good stuff.
Compared to 7.0 and older books, they're awesomely powerful (but they were before 7.5 too). They weren't particularly more powerful than the most egregious offenders like wave serpents or invisibility, and point-for-point they sure aren't better than 7e Wraithknights. But that's kinda like saying I like the Corvette, but the Ferrari is nicer.
And if you're playing Blood Angels (Martel <3 ), it's like you're trying to compete in a Geo. But then again, if I'm playing BA or DE (or any of the "worst" factions), *any* game can feel like that on a strictly point-to-point basis.
Generally speaking in the current game, which has a mix of 7.5, 7.0, and 6.0 armies, most armies can tailor a solution to Riptides OR have some type of MSU that will be victorious, but the issue is that the Riptides are stupid easy to command, whereas defeating them often requires clever play; and even then, sometimes, it only works if you trick your enemy because they're unprepared or unfamiliar with what you're fielding. And that's mostly the problem with a lot of popular armies from 6e Wave Serpents to Necron Decurion to 7e scatterbikes and 7e Tau -- it's not that they can't be beat, it's just that you have to be a far superior player and outplay them; whereas any idiot can play models that stay out of range, are hard to kill, T1 alpha, etc.
What if he fields Riptides and is the superior player?
You can't be suggesting that your opponent may be as good as you are, can you?
Dear God......
What kind of hellish meta do you live in, Martels???
Red__Thirst wrote: I see the typical L2P trolls are out in force in this thread.
Riptides are killable, but it takes the tau player throwing them away wantonly or being inept/new to the game or otherwise just not caring.
I've killed Riptides before, but not before they did a tremendous amount of damage to my army.
Leadership manipulation is a tricky way to do it, but outside of one very specific (space marine only) formation, and two very specific powers on two different psychic trees, which one may or may not successfully roll up, few armies can really hope to have anything like this.
Lastly, Assault isn't a leadership attack. It's farking assault, and hopefully one can win that assault and sweeping advance an opponent if they lose and then fail their resulting morale check. Make no mistake however, GETTING to assault can be difficult in the extreme for some armies.
Just offering my opinion on that. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Leadership manipulation and targeting is tricky?
REALLY?
Lets see, you got the commonly available telepathy powers, with an Ld attack in its primias power. so that means marines, BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG off the top of my head can simply take it with their psykers.
Nids got 3 different LD powers in their psykers. chances of getting something on any given caster is high, and they got many casters. (haven't seen a nid list with less than 10 or so mastery levels scattered around for a long time.)
BA (altough being generally made of fail) has FotD, that has a fair chance to chase away the riptide.
DA mind worm-might be tough to get in range and could fail the wound, but a single wound by it practically removes the tide from the game.
DE has multiple LD debuff bubbles. stacking up to potential -6 IIRC. and LD attacking guns.
Death jesters. along with quinns in general messing with LD.
Eldar too has some LD special attacks on planes, unique powers, etc.
Pinning weapons-anyone doesn't have those? its not a viable go-to strategy by any strech, but its something to keep in mind. and when stacked with LD reducing abilities, its getting far easier to pull off.
IIRC-assassins and necrons also got LD targeting flamer type guns with AP2? will only do one wound, but its not like the riptide is the only target for it.
Anything with fear (every daemon, every MC, many others) reduces the riptide to even more helpless in CC than he already is.
Beyond LD attacks, some random tools that work:
-Maledictions in general are widely available, and riptides are as defenseless as any tau against these. most psyker trees containing LD attacks also contain maledictions, so odds are you WILL get something if you roll on these. considering many maledictions cause you to snap fire, it means the IA blast is shut down, and the standard shots are of greatly reduced potency.
-Superfast assault units exist in masses. you don't even need to be strong-just very fast. Not like the riptide can fight worth a damn. (3 S6Ap2 attacks at WS2 I2. hardly amazing for a model at 180 points bare bones.)
-Some armies got initiative based psyker powers/weapons too. don't quite remember who has these, but I remember they exist and took out my tide before. (blind doesn't work though. BSF blocks it)
-Anything with instant death attacks. anything with D profile.
-Snipers in general, give no feth about the T6, and every third wound ignores armor. not all snipers are born equal (ironically, tau have some of the best), but a good sniper unit will put good hurt on tides.
-Grav, the obvious answer to 2+ save units. not overly accessible though.
All this, off the top of my head without even looking. I'm willing to bet there are many more.
If just that MOST players are stuck in the traditional "hit/wound/save" as the only means of attacking something.
You look at the shopping list above, and tell me that your army don't have any of it. even the most bottom tier armies got some of that, and being bottom tier to begin with means they are not relevant to begin with.
Granted, some are not as good as others. and some armies, despite having alot have little that is good (DE for example)-but most often, that's the army iteself being flawed, not a spesific riptide issue. these armies struggle with EVERYONE.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Red__Thirst wrote: I see the typical L2P trolls are out in force in this thread.
Riptides are killable, but it takes the tau player throwing them away wantonly or being inept/new to the game or otherwise just not caring.
I've killed Riptides before, but not before they did a tremendous amount of damage to my army.
Leadership manipulation is a tricky way to do it, but outside of one very specific (space marine only) formation, and two very specific powers on two different psychic trees, which one may or may not successfully roll up, few armies can really hope to have anything like this.
Lastly, Assault isn't a leadership attack. It's farking assault, and hopefully one can win that assault and sweeping advance an opponent if they lose and then fail their resulting morale check. Make no mistake however, GETTING to assault can be difficult in the extreme for some armies.
Just offering my opinion on that. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Leadership manipulation and targeting is tricky?
REALLY?
Really really . Keep in mind that if it doesn't stop the Riptide somehow from firing, it's pointless for this discussion.
Lets see, you got the commonly available telepathy powers, with an Ld attack in its primias power. so that means marines, BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG off the top of my head can simply take it with their psykers.
Sure, and only with their psykers. Some of these armies can spam psykers, but for the most part, you're looking at 1-3 units per army . Compare to how many plasma, melta, and grav weapons these armies can take and yeah.
Rare.
Nids got 3 different LD powers in their psykers. chances of getting something on any given caster is high, and they got many casters. (haven't seen a nid list with less than 10 or so mastery levels scattered around for a long time.)
True, but really there are only 2 powers worth talking about since one has a very short range. But Nids do have access to pinning powers, and it's pretty easy to roll one. Nids don't have trouble with riptides and tend to struggle with the rest of the tau army more (since their defensive move of flying isn't as good here). Nids aren't one of the armies complaining about Riptides (ever, really). Honestly, as a nid player, Riptides aren't a real threat to me. It's my marine armies that hate them.
DE has multiple LD debuff bubbles. stacking up to potential -6 IIRC. and LD attacking guns.
Pretty much crap against a lot of armies and never really taken, also requires extremely short range for most of the -LD effects.
Still rare as it's special equipment. You're very unlikely to have the entire set.
Pinning weapons-anyone doesn't have those? its not a viable go-to strategy by any strech, but its something to keep in mind. and when stacked with LD reducing abilities, its getting far easier to pull off.
IIRC-assassins and necrons also got LD targeting flamer type guns with AP2? will only do one wound, but its not like the riptide is the only target for it.
Anything with fear (every daemon, every MC, many others) reduces the riptide to even more helpless in CC than he already is.
Requires extremely close range so effectively a non-starter.
To sum up your advice;
Most of what you're suggesting is Witchfires (which are the worst powers, requiring a to-hit roll) and are extremely short range on a target that needs to fall back.
A lot of your other suggestions require list tailoring by taking units that are only effective against armies weak to LD attacks. Which is pretty much Tau only out of the competitive armies. And are still extremely short range.
Nothing you're suggesting is likely to remove the Riptide before turn 4. Which is the entire problem. Many of what you're suggesting is only going to work against 1 Riptide, being extremely short ranged or only taken by 1-3 units per army at most, and Tau armies often take a few riptides.
Beyond LD attacks, some random tools that work:
-Maledictions in general are widely available, and riptides are as defenseless as any tau against these. most psyker trees containing LD attacks also contain maledictions, so odds are you WILL get something if you roll on these. considering many maledictions cause you to snap fire, it means the IA blast is shut down, and the standard shots are of greatly reduced potency.
True, some maledictions are quite good. They also tend to be short ranged and require a psyker, which is a rare unit in most armies.
Like the above options, maledictions are generally not very good because of those reasons. Blessings are the best powers for a reason.
-Superfast assault units exist in masses. you don't even need to be strong-just very fast. Not like the riptide can fight worth a damn. (3 S6Ap2 attacks at WS2 I2. hardly amazing for a model at 180 points bare bones.)
This is a good counter and was mentioned several time. Off hand, maybe 3-4 armies total have superfast assault units, off hand I can only think of 2.
-Some armies got initiative based psyker powers/weapons too. don't quite remember who has these, but I remember they exist and took out my tide before. (blind doesn't work though. BSF blocks it)
-Anything with instant death attacks. anything with D profile.
-Snipers in general, give no feth about the T6, and every third wound ignores armor. not all snipers are born equal (ironically, tau have some of the best), but a good sniper unit will put good hurt on tides.
Snipers need to hit, roll a rend, then go through the 5++ and the 5+ FnP. It could take 2 units of 10 snipers firing just to force a LD test, which it may not even fail. (2/3*1/6*2/3*2/3 is 8/162 per shot).
Not exactly a good answer.
All this, off the top of my head without even looking. I'm willing to bet there are many more.
If just that MOST players are stuck in the traditional "hit/wound/save" as the only means of attacking something.
You look at the shopping list above, and tell me that your army don't have any of it. even the most bottom tier armies got some of that, and being bottom tier to begin with means they are not relevant to begin with.
Granted, some are not as good as others. and some armies, despite having alot have little that is good (DE for example)-but most often, that's the army iteself being flawed, not a spesific riptide issue. these armies struggle with EVERYONE.
Actually, most of your answers were incredibly rare (requiring psykers, which most answers don't field more than 2-3 of at max, or special equipment that only leaders get). Most of your responses were short ranged as well, so don't work well against a riptide, let alone 3 that you commonly see taken.
You didn't exactly get around the to hit/ wound/ save thing either. Witchfires still require a to hit roll after roll, they just bypass wounds.
So...yes. All of the options you listed are rare, and the vast majority are either awful (short ranged psykers) or require list tailoring (which doesn't help in most settings).
And nearly all of them outside of what everyone is saying works (super fast melee, grav on DS platform). The one thing you mentioned is Nids, and Nids don't fear riptides overly much. They fear everything else in the tau army.
crazyK wrote: Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra
LOL - I tell him he can't play it. Experimental rules. Only would let them use it if I could make up stats for a unit and play it too.
Guess what? "Experimental rules" are now 100% legal to play in normal 40k
They have not updated/reposted a specific line that was in the old Downloads section for FW.
That line was something to the effect of "Good sportsmanship dictates that you should ask your opponent if you can utilize a product with Experimental Rules rather than just plopping it down on the table".
Perhaps Forgeworld "Experimental status" was meant to mean "pending verification" or something along those lines 10+ Years ago, who knows. However they have in more recent times said that the "Experimental" stamp was basically meant to say that the unit was pending print in one of the "big" books.
However even that is no more and both the "Experimental" and "40k approved" stamp has gone the way of the dodo.
Talys wrote: In my humble opinion, for what it's worth...
Spoiler:
In 7.5, Riptides aren't so bad, compared to other really good 7.5 stuff. And 7.5 is oozing with really good stuff.
Compared to 7.0 and older books, they're awesomely powerful (but they were before 7.5 too). They weren't particularly more powerful than the most egregious offenders like wave serpents or invisibility, and point-for-point they sure aren't better than 7e Wraithknights. But that's kinda like saying I like the Corvette, but the Ferrari is nicer.
And if you're playing Blood Angels (Martel <3 ), it's like you're trying to compete in a Geo. But then again, if I'm playing BA or DE (or any of the "worst" factions), *any* game can feel like that on a strictly point-to-point basis.
Generally speaking in the current game, which has a mix of 7.5, 7.0, and 6.0 armies, most armies can tailor a solution to Riptides OR have some type of MSU that will be victorious, but the issue is that the Riptides are stupid easy to command, whereas defeating them often requires clever play; and even then, sometimes, it only works if you trick your enemy because they're unprepared or unfamiliar with what you're fielding. And that's mostly the problem with a lot of popular armies from 6e Wave Serpents to Necron Decurion to 7e scatterbikes and 7e Tau -- it's not that they can't be beat, it's just that you have to be a far superior player and outplay them; whereas any idiot can play models that stay out of range, are hard to kill, T1 alpha, etc.
What if he fields Riptides and is the superior player?
In my opinion, a Tau player (I'm assuming he does have models other than riptides....) has an advantage over pre-7.5 armies, and is on equal footing versus post-7.5 armies that take advantage of the post-7.5 Special Sauce.
Against the vast majority pre-7.5 armies, he will have an advantage, but not necessarily enough to win, if he's the inferior player. A competitive modern Tau army composed of a significant number of Riptides against pre-7.5 armies that are designed for friendly play only, assuming that both players are skilled -- the Tau player will probably have a huge advantage.
In my observation, most experienced, veteran players are not really interested in a massively mismatched game, such as 7.5 Tau with Riptides vs. 6.0 CSM and therefore, you don't see that very often. Usually, when that happens, the 7.5 Tau player is either a newer player or a player who has just gotten together their Tau 7.5 army and is eager to try it out.
What I was driving at is that the annoyance for a lot of people is that some factions are just much more forgiving than others; for instance, if you deploy badly or make some wrong decisions in an early turn, you don't essentially forfeit the game. With other factions, even the tiniest mistake can wipe you out -- though afterwards, you might look back and think that if you just had not moved there, you could have had a chance to be competitive. Personally, that's not as big a deal to me, because we're willing to make our own adjustments, plus it's conceptually okay for some factions to be harder to play than others. But of course, I'd like the pre-7.5 armies to get some buffs to be more competitive.
Does that make sense?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/12 14:39:47
Lets see, you got the commonly available telepathy powers, with an Ld attack in its primias power. so that means marines, BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG off the top of my head can simply take it with their psykers.
Sure, and only with their psykers. Some of these armies can spam psykers, but for the most part, you're looking at 1-3 units per army . Compare to how many plasma, melta, and grav weapons these armies can take and yeah.
Rare.
It's not as hard as you're saying.
SM - Librarius Conclave is the best psyker formation in the game
DA - Librarius Conclave (with unique LD-based discipline)
SW - Wyrdstorm formation
BA - You're hosed sorry. At least they get a cool LD attack on their faction psychic table
GK - It's a psychic army. Sanctic allows DS in the psychic phase (subverts interceptor)
IG - Psykana formation
CSM/Daemons - ML3 Sorcs are great, Daemons got some new toys as well (including a flat -1LD modifier to the enemy army)
Eldar/Harlequins/DE -- see JimSolo's freakshow Tactics thread
The problems: LD attacks can get complicated and Psykers aren't hard to remove. Riptides are durable and gunlining from the board edge is really obvious strategy that puts the burden on the opponent. So it reminds me a bit of the grief in Starcraft when discussing a Protoss cannon rush, it's quite simple to execute but less intuitive to counter. The difference is its easier to learn counters in Starcraft (higher volume of games) and Blizzard has access to metrics and patches to adjust game balance.
A 2+ cover save and 100% dead markerlights will defang Riptides, Grav/Plasma/Melta do not. Boomwolf's point about being stuck in a shooting army mindset is valid. It's sometimes more useful to have a toolbox than special weapons spam.
Lets see, you got the commonly available telepathy powers, with an Ld attack in its primias power. so that means marines, BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG off the top of my head can simply take it with their psykers.
Sure, and only with their psykers. Some of these armies can spam psykers, but for the most part, you're looking at 1-3 units per army . Compare to how many plasma, melta, and grav weapons these armies can take and yeah.
Rare.
It's not as hard as you're saying.
SM - Librarius Conclave is the best psyker formation in the game
And yet still doesn't get taken that often in competitive lists. Granted, this might be due to the rules dispute in regards to how many psykers can actually cast in this formation, but it's not exactly common.
It's rare to see 3-5 psykers in a SM army. It's much more common to see 1-2, or just 1-2 special characters (Draigo, Tiggy) with cents and a regular HQ on a bike.
But it's certainly an option, so fair point.
DA - Librarius Conclave (with unique LD-based discipline)
Maybe DA take more psykers and I'm unaware of it, but I don't see this being better than the current Ravenwing armies. Still, fair point.
The issue with the above is the LD attack powers that are standard (not including mindworm) is that they are pretty bad. Shriek is a witch fire power with a terrible range after all.
Doesn't get access to LD attack powers really and wasn't originally mentioned. Not sure why you bring it up...wolves are going to use TWC to try to close ASAP with Tau anyway.
Eldar/Harlequins/DE -- see JimSolo's freakshow Tactics thread
I didn't comment on Harlies since I don't play them, but for DE my points all stand. The LD options are extremely short ranged, and you need to remove the Riptide before T4, and do it to multiple ones if possible.
To sum up;
You probably want to read what we are discussing.
Specifically, it's LD attack powers and/or psykers that can spam them in regards to silencing the riptide. So, right away, we can toss out SW and IG. I'm not sure why you mentioned them at all.
GK and Daemons were already mentioned as being a psychic spam army. Not sure why you mentioned those either.
The problems: LD attacks can get complicated and Psykers aren't hard to remove. Riptides are durable and gunlining from the board edge is really obvious strategy that puts the burden on the opponent. So it reminds me a bit of the grief in Starcraft when discussing a Protoss cannon rush, it's quite simple to execute but less intuitive to counter. The difference is its easier to learn counters in Starcraft (higher volume of games) and Blizzard has access to metrics and patches to adjust game balance.
A 2+ cover save and 100% dead markerlights will defang Riptides, Grav/Plasma/Melta do not. Boomwolf's point about being stuck in a shooting army mindset is valid. It's sometimes more useful to have a toolbox than special weapons spam.
His points are only valid for a small subset of armies however and doesn't address the original point at all.
For the vast majority of armies, LD attacks are a rare thing and against many opponents they aren't very good. Heck, even against riptides, many of them are so short ranged you're better off charging and just going for the force weapon kill.
Or it requires list tailoring, which can't be done in a tournament.
3 Grav Cents firing at a Riptide, if he has 
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
<3 ), it's like you're trying to compete in a Geo. But then again, if I'm playing 
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
. Keep in mind that if it doesn't stop the Riptide somehow from firing, it's pointless for this discussion.
