Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.

The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.

Why not take 3 trip las preds. at 360 points, you get monster hunter, so re-roll those wounds. and can do 3 reliable wounds on main cannons, and another 3 on average with the side sponsons, probably more, and you have a 1 turn drop, that the riptide has to use a template to try and hurt you "reliably" back, which if the rest of your army did their job, no markerlights, isn't that reliable. and can self wound, possibly stop the shot.
and you can be fast, move 6" and fire all at full bs (for mroe points yes)

 pumaman1 wrote:
As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.

I hear Cultists are pretty fast to catch a Riptide lol

But seriously... It ain't happening. If your opponent is braindead maybe... But highly doubtful

Best bet against a Riptide is to punch your opponent in the face. Because we play CSM. We're the bad guys

 pumaman1 wrote:
Why not take 3 trip las preds. at 360 points, you get monster hunter, so re-roll those wounds. and can do 3 reliable wounds on main cannons, and another 3 on average with the side sponsons, probably more, and you have a 1 turn drop, that the riptide has to use a template to try and hurt you "reliably" back, which if the rest of your army did their job, no markerlights, isn't that reliable. and can self wound, possibly stop the shot.
and you can be fast, move 6" and fire all at full bs (for mroe points yes)

BA preds can't get monster hunter. It's not like I regularly use pod lists because not all lists are Tau. And preds are bad. That's why not.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Why not take 3 trip las preds. at 360 points, you get monster hunter, so re-roll those wounds. and can do 3 reliable wounds on main cannons, and another 3 on average with the side sponsons, probably more, and you have a 1 turn drop, that the riptide has to use a template to try and hurt you "reliably" back, which if the rest of your army did their job, no markerlights, isn't that reliable. and can self wound, possibly stop the shot.
and you can be fast, move 6" and fire all at full bs (for mroe points yes)

Tri Las Preds, while cheap aren't exactly reliable... And they fill an already over inflated Heavy Support slot. Until CSM get 1-3 Models per unit much like C:SM they simply cannot be taken in bulk like that =/ Not that we have much else for the HS slot but there are other options out there that can benefit you more. Fire Raptor Gunships for example. They will almost always make their points back VS pretty much any army that isn't specifically built to Interceptor them on arrival and generally speaking cause more havoc than 3 Tri Las Preds could.

Factor in Cover and FNP from the Tide and you basically cause 2.6ish wounds a turn to a 4+ Cover 5+ FNP Riptide

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.

The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.

I can count the number of times I've killed a riptide on 1 hand with marines. I bring a lot of grav cannons too. They are basically immortal at around 220 points. Why can't a land raider be like...half as hard to kill as these things?

Even with monster hunter, three trilas preds are only going to burn down a naked riptide fast, if its got FNP and its nova generator going, they're going to neeed probably 4 turns to kill the thing.

Its still 2+ wounds ignores armor, and either 1 tl and 2 bs 4 shots of damage 3x. the 6 bs 4 shots will land 4 hits, will be 3+ wounds, and the TL will land 3+ shots and probably 3+ wounds. with a little luck that's a dead riptide, with a little bad luck it lives, but not much longer. it's only got 3 s7 shots back, so glancing front armor. nova-charging for ordinance again might overheat, cause the last wound you need no saves, and then risks a scatter, and has a 1/16 chance of killing your tanks per hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
right, but if its nova'ing its shields, it isnt doing very much damage back, so its a fire magnet, reprioritize targets. FNP is a 5+ and 35 point upgrade, so it might help. but again, you dont like that you cannot reliably take it down in 1 round with 1 unit shooting. that's not that big of a complaint. to take out your trip las preds, i'd have to devote over 500 pts to try and take them out for sure in 1 turn.

Akiasura wrote:
To sum up;
You probably want to read what we are discussing.

Maybe you figure the more you write, the more likely I'd lose your original point.

"Some of these armies can spam psykers, but for the most part, you're looking at 1-3 units per army... Compare to how many plasma, melta, and grav weapons these armies can take and yeah. Rare."

The armies Boomwolff mentioned were "BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG". So I stuck with the topic.

Psykers are not rare and access isn't difficult. That's my point, it was your counterpoint, and you were wrong. Finito. I don't care whether each individual choice is competitive or common or effective. You can discuss that with other people, instead of assuming arguments I'm not making -- you know, learn to read?

 pumaman1 wrote:
Why not take 3 trip las preds. at 360 points, you get monster hunter, so re-roll those wounds. and can do 3 reliable wounds on main cannons, and another 3 on average with the side sponsons, probably more, and you have a 1 turn drop, that the riptide has to use a template to try and hurt you "reliably" back, which if the rest of your army did their job, no markerlights, isn't that reliable. and can self wound, possibly stop the shot.
and you can be fast, move 6" and fire all at full bs (for mroe points yes)

Isn't it 3TL lascannon shots on the main cannons for 3 tanks?
I don't see how you are getting 3 reliable wounds. 3+ to hit with re-rolls and 2+ to wound with re-rolls is still not 3. Not to mention the invul/cover + FnP. Even assuming 3 wounds reach that stage (it's probably just under) most likely something like 1.6-8 is getting through.
The 6 side shots are probably in a similar boat. Assuming BS 4 monster hunter, it's probably like 2/3*essentially 1 *2/3*2/3 = 8/27, so 2 wounds caused. That's assuming all 3 have LoS to the creature, which may or may not happen.

So it would take 3 TriLas Preds roughly 2 turns to kill a single riptide, assuming they all get cover. It might take 3 if the dice go sour. That's not bad, but it's not great either. TriLas Preds aren't hard for tau to remove with a lot of their formations. Not to mention that tri-las preds are very matchup dependent...against a lot of armies (eldar, necrons, or SM) they aren't very good at all.

If the riptide manages to get a 4+ cover save, I think the dice math shifts to 3 turns.
It's not a bad solution, but it suffers from "needs to list tailor" syndrome, because tri-las preds aren't good against most armies.

Edit,
I hear what you're saying in that a goalpost isn't clearly being set. I think that's important in a discussion like this, otherwise you get people talking past each other constantly, or proving points nobody was in disagreement about in the first place.

The goal post I would like to set is the following;
I would like to remove 2-3 riptides by T2 while spending 50% more points max and not making a list that is going to fall apart against everything else.
This may not be a fair goalpost so I'm open to moving it.

@ Yoyoyo,
It seems you did lose the original point.
We were talking about LD attack powers and how they can be used against the Riptide and why this is/isn't a good option. I'm pretty sure me discussing the LD powers, along with everyone else, made that pretty clear.
IG and SW don't have those powers. Everyone, including me (the guy you quoted and responded to) mentioned that this is certainly viable for Daemons and GK, since they can spam psykers pretty easily.
We clearly weren't only talking about psykers at this point, since DE and their equipment, along with necrons, were mentioned.

If your only point was to take one post out of context and attempt a response, alright.
That doesn't change the fact that psykers are relatively rare for most armies when compared to special weapons, which is the part you quoted. Unless you are saying that psykers outnumber special weapons for most armies.
If you want to talk about psykers in lists, feel free to make a new thread. We are clearly talking about everything in regards to the Riptide here.

Trying to shoot more is attacking strength rather than attacking weakness.

Kill markerlights, get good cover saves, eliminate Obsec, win on VPs.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Its still 2+ wounds ignores armor, and either 1 tl and 2 bs 4 shots of damage 3x. the 6 bs 4 shots will land 4 hits, will be 3+ wounds, and the TL will land 3+ shots and probably 3+ wounds. with a little luck that's a dead riptide, with a little bad luck it lives, but not much longer. it's only got 3 s7 shots back, so glancing front armor. nova-charging for ordinance again might overheat, cause the last wound you need no saves, and then risks a scatter, and has a 1/16 chance of killing your tanks per hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
right, but if its nova'ing its shields, it isnt doing very much damage back, so its a fire magnet, reprioritize targets. FNP is a 5+ and 35 point upgrade, so it might help. but again, you dont like that you cannot reliably take it down in 1 round with 1 unit shooting. that's not that big of a complaint. to take out your trip las preds, i'd have to devote over 500 pts to try and take them out for sure in 1 turn.

Here is where things break down in that vacuum however, the Riptide is generally not hunting armor, but infantr, light vehicles, and MC's. The Tau player isnt going to be using the Riptide to engage the Predators, theyll have different assets for that role, like DSIng Crisis melta suits or Hammerheads or 2+cover sporting Ghostkeels that hit on rear armor, while the Riptide vapes all the non-vehicle units.

And Emperor help you if you have more than 1 Riptide to deal with

how are tri-las bad against any army with vehicles? so most all of them. or elite units?

that said 3 TL bs4 shots 2/3 hit, and 2/3 of the miss reroll to hit, 8/9 chance all 3 hit. those 3 hits wound on a 2+, with monster hunter (which you said they don't get so fair) is a 1/36 chance to not wound. so 8/9*35/36 ~86% (74% w/o monster hunter) chance of 3 wounds off main cannon. with normal invul, 2 wounds.
the other 6 shots get 4 hits, so again basically 4 wounds with re-roll. 2 more wounds, 4 wounds on a 5 wound model. and your las pred can pretty easily get a 25% obscure behind an ageis or wall, and camo net, standing 4+ cover save. again your army takes out the ml with your other 1200 pts. if they rock the 3+ invul its 2 wounds. but it's forgoing the true damage potential, and you can ignore them.

Ultimately, mine die, in cover. others riptides die, in cover. we over extended trying to push victory, it fails, and they die. sometimes they die doing less than 50 pts in damage, because terrain blocks LOS and bad dice that day.

Any super elite unit can be defeated by small fast units. BA are uniquely (for IoM) able to take abundant small fast units, and crush in maelstrom missions. and you can spread out so much that the riptides are just wasting fire everywhere, while the rest of your army wipes up the rest of the tau army.

All that said, you have my sympathy. i will list tailor my builds down for BA, bringing the tau flyers and open topped armor 11-10-10 2hp skimmers. (whose explode results have pen'd and exploded the others on disturbingly frequent occasion)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Its still 2+ wounds ignores armor, and either 1 tl and 2 bs 4 shots of damage 3x. the 6 bs 4 shots will land 4 hits, will be 3+ wounds, and the TL will land 3+ shots and probably 3+ wounds. with a little luck that's a dead riptide, with a little bad luck it lives, but not much longer. it's only got 3 s7 shots back, so glancing front armor. nova-charging for ordinance again might overheat, cause the last wound you need no saves, and then risks a scatter, and has a 1/16 chance of killing your tanks per hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
right, but if its nova'ing its shields, it isnt doing very much damage back, so its a fire magnet, reprioritize targets. FNP is a 5+ and 35 point upgrade, so it might help. but again, you dont like that you cannot reliably take it down in 1 round with 1 unit shooting. that's not that big of a complaint. to take out your trip las preds, i'd have to devote over 500 pts to try and take them out for sure in 1 turn.

Here is where things break down in that vacuum however, the Riptide is generally not hunting armor, but infantr, light vehicles, and MC's. The Tau player isnt going to be using the Riptide to engage the Predators, theyll have different assets for that role, like DSIng Crisis melta suits or Hammerheads or 2+cover sporting Ghostkeels that hit on rear armor, while the Riptide vapes all the non-vehicle units.

And Emperor help you if you have more than 1 Riptide to deal with

ghost keels don't by default hit rear armor.. that's the OSC, where you need stealth suits within a few inches. if they aren't bringing stealth suits, they are cheating.

Most the better armies don't take any vehicles. If they do, it's usually transport spam, which tri-las preds don't do well against.

 Quickjager wrote:
Come back when you place top 8 with your mutilators and we'll talk on who is a good general.

Until you can win with them at all, I don't think you have much to say to me. Just saying.

Right, the Ghostkeels only get that in the formation, but the point really was that the Tau player isnt going to be using the Riptide to neutralize the Predators, so a straight up comparison in what kills what fastest doesnt work. They fulfill different roles.

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.

The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.

Seriously Martel... You need to play another faction so you can find something else to complain about. It just sems that no matter what thread you are in, your responses literally come down to this: "I am miserable and my Blood Angels suck and there's no hope for me".

Play another faction. It can only improve the variety of your responses.

I have to agree with Jancoran. I browse a lot of boards, and this board is more BA centric than nearly every other one I've been to because of this.

I understand where you are coming from, CSM will always be my main army and nids my second. But I can't frame every conversation around CSM and Nids as that isn't fair to the discussion and other posters.

Lets refrain from personal attacks. please.

THe good part, BA can become any SM faction with a different codex. they are just a successor chapter of ___ with red armor

I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.

The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.

Seriously Martel... You need to play another faction so you can find something else to complain about. It just sems that no matter what thread you are in, your responses literally come down to this: "I am miserable and my Blood anfels suck and there's no hope for me".

Play another faction. It can only improve the variety of your responses.

I'd never give gw that much money at this point. I'm super hesitant to get a single knight.

I guess you are having problems coming up with clever solutions for ba?

Yoyoyo wrote:
I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily

the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

 pumaman1 wrote:
Lets refrain from personal attacks. please.

THe good part, BA can become any SM faction with a different codex. they are just a successor chapter of ___ with red armor

The interesting thing is that I don't have the models for that. BA are just divergent enough. I guess I might be able to field gladius.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Come back when you place top 8 with your mutilators and we'll talk on who is a good general.

Until you can win with them at all, I don't think you have much to say to me. Just saying.

"I PLAY TOY SOLDIER BETTER THAN YOU"

"NO, I PLAY TOY SOLDIER BETTER"

 pumaman1 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily

the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

They'll catch the Riptide eventually if there are 9 or 10, but not until the game is practically over and the Riptide has done its work.
Not to mention the crisis suits remove them quite well.

For CSM I imagine the solution is Belakor, Bikes assaulting, Spawn absorbing hits and charging forward (although fire warriors do well against them), or Daemon allies.
So...typical solutions.

Belakor solves all the problems, unless the other team just has that many more psykers

Very true. He's a bit worse in ITC formats but he's still really solid.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Come back when you place top 8 with your mutilators and we'll talk on who is a good general.

Until you can win with them at all, I don't think you have much to say to me. Just saying.

Based off the battle reports you've given, I'd be able to take Warp Talons too and do fine. Your locals is CAAC; just accept that.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily

the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

Ogryns.
Because at least the Mutilators have decent armour.

On a serious note though, there are a lot of armies which struggle with Riptides and most of them are the older ones: Orks, Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, Chaos and Sisters. These armies lack the sheer amount of cheap amassed fire or cheesy power units/wargear with which to take the Riptide down. Whilst SM's have Grave, Necrons have fancy weapon X, Space Wolves have Hellfrost, Wulfen and Thunderwolf cavalry and Eldar have Eldar, these older armies have very little that can counter a Riptide. That is where the complaints really start coming in, from players whom have to pay through the nose for a single Riptide escue thing and even then it is still no where near as good (Case example: Imperial Guard and the Malcador chassis tanks). To us of the weaker codexes the Riptide is criminally good and very much overpowered for what it costs.

Just putting things into perspective here.