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""List tailoring" is such a ridiculous notion."

No, it's not. You shouldn't know your opponent in advance.

"but they're still a SM chapter codex. "

That means absolutely nothing. The problems are far more extensive than things "cost a little more." Who's not in reality here? You don't hear much other whining about BA because most other players have given up on them.

"They're not *that* bad."

You trot them out there and see how it goes for you. No invis. No viable death star. No grav cannons. No chapter masters. No squadron bonuses. No gladius. Literally every single thing that makes the vanilla marines good is missing from the BA.

Honestly, the more I hear from you the more I think you have no idea why any given army is good or bad.

Martel732 wrote:
""List tailoring" is such a ridiculous notion."

No, it's not. You shouldn't know your opponent in advance.

"Hi, wanna play a game?"

"Sure, I'm just here for a few hours while waiting for a friend."

"Awesome. So you've got only a whole pile of Imperial Guard infantry? No tanks or vehicles of any kind?"

"No, vehicles were too bulky for the train ride."

"Okay, cool. I brought all my models, so I'm gonna quickly make a list composed exclusively of the best GEQ-killing units and weapons I can field with no anti-vehicle weapons whatsoever. Should be a fun game."

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Because you're complaining about them doing exactly that.

No I'm not. I'm saying it's what makes the Sisters codex weak. If we could just say "don't use your strong units!" to our opponents in this discussion and then that would make the codex fine, then the whole conversation on what codex is strong and what is weak is fairly pointless, no?

Do you understand the difference between complaining about a weakness and wanting others to play around it, and simply explaining that a weakness exists?

Not having dedicated AA is HARDLY the reason SoB are a mediocre codex though. It's a non-complaint; Fliers are mostly weak so who cares if it isn't there?

Necrons hands-down.

Every time I see someone bring them to a Games Day, their opponent looks deeply into the Necron Players eyes cursing their soul into eternal damnation. Then they say they don't wanna play with an unfun army and leave.


rip necrons, no reanimation saves for you.

Orks need their customization back, mob rule to be a benefit, not a curse, for nob bikers to be priced more reasonably once people realize they are not the super scary unit they were in 5th, and the nauts to be moved up to super heavy

Nids need their swarms to be swarmier, their non flying MCs to be more valuable through better specialization, more customization options again, and for their formations and rules to be put in one place.

Dark Eldar need a total pass to bring back the cannon part of their glass cannon, and make them viable as more than just a Codex Eldar supplement. Return a lot of the wargear and customization options that were stripped out in 7th, return the bomber armor and price to that of 5th, make dodge saves on wyches work in CC and not just vs overwatch, let passengers on raiders do something useful again, bring back Vect and some of the other stripped out characters.

Bonus: Marines- Nerf ASTKNF to just autopass regroup checks, not autoregroup then act normally while everyone else can only move 3 inches and that's it. Bump drop pods up to 45 points, drop razorbacks to 45 base. No free vehicles for a battle company.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Bonus: Marines- Nerf ASTKNF to just autopass regroup checks, not autoregroup then act normally while everyone else can only move 3 inches and that's it.

I remember in 5th when ATSKNF made it so that if Marines failed a morale check and fled from combat, but were caught, they took No Retreat! wounds instead of being wiped out.

And I remember that one glorious occasion when I made a Chapter Master take 17 No Retreat! wounds simultaneously. He failed 4 saves.

Martel732 wrote:
""List tailoring" is such a ridiculous notion."

No, it's not. You shouldn't know your opponent in advance.

Why not?

Martel732 wrote:

"but they're still a SM chapter codex. "

That means absolutely nothing. The problems are far more extensive than things "cost a little more." Who's not in reality here? You don't hear much other whining about BA because most other players have given up on them.

"They're not *that* bad."

You trot them out there and see how it goes for you. No invis. No viable death star. No grav cannons. No chapter masters. No squadron bonuses. No gladius. Literally every single thing that makes the vanilla marines good is missing from the BA.

Honestly, the more I hear from you the more I think you have no idea why any given army is good or bad.

I have actually, back when I played Sisters. My BA friend won about 2 games out of 3, and we did a list swap. I beat him with BA. Had a great game. I think maybe you're just not good at your army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Because you're complaining about them doing exactly that.

No I'm not. I'm saying it's what makes the Sisters codex weak. If we could just say "don't use your strong units!" to our opponents in this discussion and then that would make the codex fine, then the whole conversation on what codex is strong and what is weak is fairly pointless, no?

Do you understand the difference between complaining about a weakness and wanting others to play around it, and simply explaining that a weakness exists?

Not having dedicated AA is HARDLY the reason SoB are a mediocre codex though. It's a non-complaint; Fliers are mostly weak so who cares if it isn't there?

Have you read that online somewhere and then just repeat it instead of thinking about what flying can do to an army that has no answer to it? Against Sisters the Storm Raven is an assault ram that can pick exactly where to place a unit of Death Company, without fail. There is no way to stop it from letting them charge exactly what they want, and there is nothing in the Sisters army that can survive their charge. If you don't like death company, then replace it with anything else. When it can't fail its job of getting a unit into combat against an army that doesn't want to be in combat under any circumstances, it is a very strong model. The fact that fliers are weak against the top tier armies has nothing to do with Sisters.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Because you're complaining about them doing exactly that.

No I'm not. I'm saying it's what makes the Sisters codex weak. If we could just say "don't use your strong units!" to our opponents in this discussion and then that would make the codex fine, then the whole conversation on what codex is strong and what is weak is fairly pointless, no?

Do you understand the difference between complaining about a weakness and wanting others to play around it, and simply explaining that a weakness exists?

Sorry, I came into this conversation partway through so I guess I mistook what you were saying for something else.

Yes, I would agree that Sororitas lack a lot of tools that other Codices have and any proper revamp to the Codex and model line would have to include some anti-air tools. You could probably fix the anti-air thing by letting Exorcists buy a piece of vehicle wargear that gives them a Skyfire option, and that wouldn't even require a new model.

They suffer more from not having formations or super cheese decurions like the 7.5 edition codexes. Thats despite Shield of Baal having them in the fluff and the perfect time to have introudced them and new SC's.

Sororitas are a good army with some nasty units - give them the formsations treatment and they wouldbe quite impressive. Imagine Sororitas with the Gladius rules.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Because you're complaining about them doing exactly that.

No I'm not. I'm saying it's what makes the Sisters codex weak. If we could just say "don't use your strong units!" to our opponents in this discussion and then that would make the codex fine, then the whole conversation on what codex is strong and what is weak is fairly pointless, no?

Do you understand the difference between complaining about a weakness and wanting others to play around it, and simply explaining that a weakness exists?

Sorry, I came into this conversation partway through so I guess I mistook what you were saying for something else.

Yes, I would agree that Sororitas lack a lot of tools that other Codices have and any proper revamp to the Codex and model line would have to include some anti-air tools. You could probably fix the anti-air thing by letting Exorcists buy a piece of vehicle wargear that gives them a Skyfire option, and that wouldn't even require a new model.

They suffer more from not having formations or super cheese decurions like the 7.5 edition codexes. Thats despite Shield of Baal having them in the fluff and the perfect time to have introudced them and new SC's.

Sororitas are a good army with some nasty units - give them the formsations treatment and they wouldbe quite impressive. Imagine Sororitas with the Gladius rules.

I have never played with or against the Gladius rules so I can't have an opinion about that in any way.

Also, seriously, they could just give the Exorcist a second type of missile it could fire, one exactly the same as the normal missiles but with the added USR "Skyfire." That would be very, VERY easy and quick to implement.

Martel732 wrote:
""List tailoring" is such a ridiculous notion."

No, it's not. You shouldn't know your opponent in advance.

"but they're still a SM chapter codex. "

That means absolutely nothing. The problems are far more extensive than things "cost a little more." Who's not in reality here? You don't hear much other whining about BA because most other players have given up on them.

"They're not *that* bad."

You trot them out there and see how it goes for you. No invis. No viable death star. No grav cannons. No chapter masters. No squadron bonuses. No gladius. Literally every single thing that makes the vanilla marines good is missing from the BA.

Honestly, the more I hear from you the more I think you have no idea why any given army is good or bad.

Funny thing, maybe funnier from an outside perspective but I just read the Deathwatch codex today and the ridiculously cheap melee gear popped out at me, I wanted to know why their gear was so cheap? The response was that they just picked up spoils of war so melee gear is common and cheap to them.
According to their fluff Blood Angels are a founding chapter that is dying out due to losing gene seeds to the thirst and rage and not being able to replenish them...doesn't that mean they should have more wargear than hands to wield them?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
""List tailoring" is such a ridiculous notion."

No, it's not. You shouldn't know your opponent in advance.

"but they're still a SM chapter codex. "

That means absolutely nothing. The problems are far more extensive than things "cost a little more." Who's not in reality here? You don't hear much other whining about BA because most other players have given up on them.

"They're not *that* bad."

You trot them out there and see how it goes for you. No invis. No viable death star. No grav cannons. No chapter masters. No squadron bonuses. No gladius. Literally every single thing that makes the vanilla marines good is missing from the BA.

Honestly, the more I hear from you the more I think you have no idea why any given army is good or bad.

Funny thing, maybe funnier from an outside perspective but I just read the Deathwatch codex today and the ridiculously cheap melee gear popped out at me, I wanted to know why their gear was so cheap? The response was that they just picked up spoils of war so melee gear is common and cheap to them.
According to their fluff Blood Angels are a founding chapter that is dying out due to losing gene seeds to the thirst and rage and not being able to replenish them...doesn't that mean they should have more wargear than hands to wield them?

Depends.

Does the Blood Angels' wargear get lost with them when they die, or retrieved?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Funny thing, maybe funnier from an outside perspective but I just read the Deathwatch codex today and the ridiculously cheap melee gear popped out at me, I wanted to know why their gear was so cheap? .

What cheap melee gear? Power weapons are 15ppm, Power Fists are 25ppm, Thunder Hammers are 30ppm...

All pretty normal.

I have never played with or against the Gladius rules so I can't have an opinion about that in any way.

Free Immolators as transports for all relevant squads in the formation seems like quite an upgrade to me

Exorcist formations would get re-rolls or be able to combine into D weapon strikes

etc
etc

thats 7.5 edition for you.

 Mr Morden wrote:

I have never played with or against the Gladius rules so I can't have an opinion about that in any way.

Free Immolators as transports for all relevant squads in the formation seems like quite an upgrade to me

Exorcist formations would get re-rolls or be able to combine into D weapon strikes

etc
etc

thats 7.5 edition for you.

I feel glad that my "local meta" has never touched formations then.

 Selym wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Funny thing, maybe funnier from an outside perspective but I just read the Deathwatch codex today and the ridiculously cheap melee gear popped out at me, I wanted to know why their gear was so cheap? .

What cheap melee gear? Power weapons are 15ppm, Power Fists are 25ppm, Thunder Hammers are 30ppm...

All pretty normal.

Read the codex, the actual book. Deathwatch Vets are picking up Power Weapons for 5ppm, Storm Shields for 10ppm and Powerfists or a pair of Lightning Claws for 20ppm. Those 'Thunderhammers' have Insta Death on a 6+ to wound.

Page 78 says no on the cheap melee. And bear in mind, you're taking a storm shield on a unit of 3+ save T4 W1 models who are costing 22-50 points each after upgrades. Hardly amazing. And TH are commonly instant death anyway. Most targets are T4 or below.

 Selym wrote:
Page 78 says no on the cheap melee. And bear in mind, you're taking a storm shield on a unit of 3+ save T4 W1 models who are costing 22-50 points each after upgrades. Hardly amazing. And TH are commonly instant death anyway. Most targets are T4 or below.

If your expected target is T4 models you're probably not gonna take a thunder hammer to begin with.

Or at least I wouldn't.

But I play Sisters of Battle so badly I regularly get tabled by Orks, so my sense of strategy is probably pretty bad.

My expected target is tanks. Hence TH. And 52 points for a model that does ID on 1/6 of his wounds is not overly impressive, given his lack of durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, the tradeoff is that the marine cannot use any other weaponry. No guns, no faster melee weapons.

With 2 attacks base.

 Selym wrote:
My expected target is tanks. Hence TH. And 52 points for a model that does ID on 1/6 of his wounds is not overly impressive, given his lack of durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, the tradeoff is that the marine cannot use any other weaponry. No guns, no faster melee weapons.

With 2 attacks base.

ID doesn't matter to you at all if you're using them against tanks. Tanks don't have wounds, hence can't be IDed.

Also you could buy Lascannon Devastators for cheaper, with extra range and even an extra point of strength.

 Selym wrote:
My expected target is tanks. Hence TH. And 52 points for a model that does ID on 1/6 of his wounds is not overly impressive, given his lack of durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, the tradeoff is that the marine cannot use any other weaponry. No guns, no faster melee weapons.

With 2 attacks base.

The heavy thunder hammer is also str 10 I'm pretty sure, so IDing most things, and even then MCs and GMCs can get squashed if you fish for sixes enough.

And 2 attacks can be made 4 by a blackshield in the right situations.

Which is what I'm swinging for. Between target variances, model durability and sacrificing all shooting on the model, 30ppm seems a fair price to pay. Especially with Black Shield.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Selym wrote:
My expected target is tanks. Hence TH. And 52 points for a model that does ID on 1/6 of his wounds is not overly impressive, given his lack of durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, the tradeoff is that the marine cannot use any other weaponry. No guns, no faster melee weapons.

With 2 attacks base.

The heavy thunder hammer is also str 10 I'm pretty sure, so IDing most things, and even then MCs and GMCs can get squashed if you fish for sixes enough.

And 2 attacks can be made 4 by a blackshield in the right situations.

MCs and GMCs could also get squashed if you can make enough 2+ to-wound rolls to deplete them to 0 wounds.

 Selym wrote:
Page 78 says no on the cheap melee. And bear in mind, you're taking a storm shield on a unit of 3+ save T4 W1 models who are costing 22-50 points each after upgrades. Hardly amazing. And TH are commonly instant death anyway. Most targets are T4 or below.

I kid not.



and just in case you thought it might be isolated

#RediculouslyOP

 Selym wrote:
#RediculouslyOP

Could they be a new Grey Knights? : D

Except without the anti-Daemon abilities of 5e GK that made it so that you didn't actually play a game...

Bear in mind, though, to take the VV and Bikers, you have to invest in some already-expensive-as-feth Veterans. And either take two Vet squads and a HQ, or take one of the KT formations and be forced to fit the Bikers/VV in the same squad as Vets. They probably need their weapons to be cheap.

Note also that C:SM VV get power weapons at a discount already.

They've always been a GK parallel.

The two differences are that their shtick is Xenos hunting rather than Daemon hunting and they openly recruit known Xenos killers from other chapters rather than doing everything in secret.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
Bear in mind, though, to take the VV and Bikers, you have to invest in some already-expensive-as-feth Veterans. And either take two Vet squads and a HQ, or take one of the KT formations and be forced to fit the Bikers/VV in the same squad as Vets. They probably need their weapons to be cheap.

Note also that C:SM VV get power weapons at a discount already.

I thought that at first but loading them up for melee they quickly work out cheaper than their equivalents in Stern Guard, Wolf Guard and whatever Blood Angels call their elites.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
They've always been a GK parallel.

The two differences are that their shtick is Xenos hunting rather than Daemon hunting and they openly recruit known Xenos killers from other chapters rather than doing everything in secret.

Cool.

What's the Witch hunting equivalent of the Deathwatch and Grey Knights? And will they ever get a stupidly-overpowered Codex and badass new models one day?

" I think maybe you're just not good at your army. "

That totally explains why I'm almost undefeated in mirror matches. A more likely explanation is that your meta doesn't play strong lists.

You didn't address my point head on, you used personal anecdotes. My point is that BA lack units X, Y, Z that make vanilla marines strong.

"Why not? "

Because that takes a big part of the challenge of list building away.

"There is no way to stop it from letting them charge exactly what they want, and there is nothing in the Sisters army that can survive their charge. "

So you sacrifice a unit, and then kill that unit and the flyer because it had to hover to do that. Flyers are not good, even against lists with no AA because of their cost and their fragility on a point/hp basis. You aren't thinking deeply about how games play out, and that's why you think flyers are a problem and BA are not terribad.

Martel732 wrote:
My point is that BA lack units X, Y, Z that make vanilla marines strong.

I havew actually addressed your incredibly vague points over and over. You have never said anything beyond "X, Y, Z." Awesome. Well Sisters are lacking A, B, C and D. Please address that.

What exactly is it that BA is lacking, but Sisters has to make BA so obviously weaker than Sisters?

Martel732 wrote:
So you sacrifice a unit, and then kill that unit and the flyer because it had to hover to do that. Flyers are not good, even against lists with no AA because of their cost and their fragility on a point/hp basis. You aren't thinking deeply about how games play out, and that's why you think flyers are a problem and BA are not terribad.

Sacrifice *a* unit? No, you lose WHATEVER unit the BA player wants you to lose, and then that group of melee continues their rampage through your army, because you have nothing to stop it with.

When you fly in, the flier has two rounds of shooting. One when it enters and one when it goes into hover, and that's even assuming it then gets shot down. So it will even without the consideration that it just delivered a game winning payload most probably make most of its points back. Again, you're just bad at your army. Maybe you win mirror matches because they have to play the same bad list you've made?

you're not thinking deeply about how a game plays out when all you see is the first charge and don't even look at what the flier can do up to getting there. Jesus man, how can you say I don't "think deeply" and then claim you can just sacrifice one unit to a flying landraider if you can't kill it.