Mantic Games - Star Saga KS - Finished @ $410,198

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**Compel**

That all sounds very similar to imperial assault. The main difference being that StarSaga has a lot depending on the decks whereas IA is more based on game and turn triggers

**DaveC**

Mantic Stew wrote:

Completely agree with you on this - the tiles in DS are too thin. For TWD we have moved to a much higher quality card (and we're using a different manufacturer) - over 2.5mm thick, sturdy card, with linen textured printing. It's the TWD quality level we're carrying forward into Star Saga, not the Dungeon Saga quality level .

That's good to hear Stew thanks. It looks like a lot of previous issues have been addressed already.

As I said the DS tiles are fine they aren't poor quality but they could they could be better and if compared to something like Zombicide then they will look inferior.

**Psychopomp**

Wow. That rules development brief sounds a lot like what I thought I was pledging for with Dungeon Saga.

I'd like to see a stretch goal for a new Dungeon Saga rulebook applying the Star Saga rules retroactively back to the fantasy setting more than anything else.

**agnosto**

I'll pass and wait for the 3rd kickstarter on this, 1 or 2 years down the road, when it will be a more mature product and see if it's worth picking up after they've charged everyone for an FAQ/rules update like they did with DeadZone.

**MLaw**

DaveC wrote:
Mantic Stew wrote:

Completely agree with you on this - the tiles in DS are too thin. For TWD we have moved to a much higher quality card (and we're using a different manufacturer) - over 2.5mm thick, sturdy card, with linen textured printing. It's the TWD quality level we're carrying forward into Star Saga, not the Dungeon Saga quality level .

That's good to hear Stew thanks. It looks like a lot of previous issues have been addressed already.

As I said the DS tiles are fine they aren't poor quality but they could they could be better and if compared to something like Zombicide then they will look inferior.

It's funny that this ended up being an issue since it's something that I brought up during the DS KS and was directly and openly mocked by Mantic for suggesting that they would make the tiles too thin. I also suggested that they key them like the D&D boardgame tiles which was also mocked. I sort of feel vindicated but whatever.. it's Mantic.

The actual news for this is moderately exciting though but I just got my HINT pledge in a few days ago. I'm trying to digest that and am waiting, hopefully for the replacement items on MERCs Recon. Where this might have enough appeal to lure me in is simplicity. Almost every attempted sci-fi "dungeon crawler" I've tried to get into is just way too over complicated for what it's trying to be. If this ends up being lightweight, fast, and fun.. I could get into it. That also depends on whether it's going to be baloon-y cartoony or more hard sci-fi.. with Mantic you really never know :/

**Azazelx**

Psychopomp wrote:
Wow. That rules development brief sounds a lot like what I thought I was pledging for with Dungeon Saga.

Pretty much. And it's why I'll be doing what Agnosto does. Along with the lollerskates shipping costs and clownshoes shipping organisation. Especially these days when GW is knocking it out of the park on a regular basis with finished boxed sets filled with top-tier HIPS models.

Mantic needs to pull out their finger and sort out some proper hub shipping options for AU and the US. I'm not ever paying Warpath-style shipping costs again.

**str00dles1**

agnosto wrote:
I'll pass and wait for the 3rd kickstarter on this, 1 or 2 years down the road, when it will be a more mature product and see if it's worth picking up after they've charged everyone for an FAQ/rules update like they did with DeadZone.

This. This comment is perfect and exactly how I feel about Mantic. Changes in GW has brought me back heavily. Buying their board games, getting into 30k, and buying 2 armies for AoS. All I have to show for Mantic is tons of orcs and enforcers, that are literally worthless. At least GW has a resell value.

**agnosto**

Azazelx wrote:
Psychopomp wrote:
Wow. That rules development brief sounds a lot like what I thought I was pledging for with Dungeon Saga.

Pretty much. And it's why I'll be doing what Agnosto does. Along with the lollerskates shipping costs and clownshoes shipping organisation. Especially these days when GW is knocking it out of the park on a regular basis with finished boxed sets filled with top-tier HIPS models.

Mantic needs to pull out their finger and sort out some proper hub shipping options for AU and the US. I'm not ever paying Warpath-style shipping costs again.

It is kind of fun to watch the keystone cops type of product development that Mantic pursues though; if nothing else, I watch these kickstarter threads for the entertainment value as they follow a kind of formula:
1. Teaser
2. Customer excitement
3. Kickstarter starts off with huge numbers
4. Details start to come and people ask questions
5. Mantic drops a bomb about shipping charges or something else that's "off"
6. People become upset
7. Mantic offers as much "value" as possible to quiet the gackstorm and draw people back in
8. Months later they drop something from the kickstarter, change a material without notice, combine two products or otherwise start to change what they promised
9. The end product is "meh" and can generally be bought for cheaper than the kickstarter price
10. Months later a v2 kickstarter is offered to correct the errors of rushed product development, shoddy writing, or just bad decisions by Mantic
11. Cycle repeats with generally smaller buy-in but still profitable.

Churn and burn baby; who needs repeat customers anyway?

**BrizzleRob**

Spot on!!! It is so frustrating to see yet another Mantic KS where yet again they (finally) admit how the last one went wrong, but don't worry because they've learnt now.

I read with interest the development blog post with the admission that, perhaps, the DS Adventurer's Companion wasn't quite what had been billed.

**Bull0**

I mean, Dreadball - $700,000, Dreadball Xtreme - $500,000, Dreadball 2 - $180,000

Deadzone - $1.2m, Deadzone Infestation - $380,000

It's a game of rapidly diminishing returns. Personally I can't help thinking Mantic are on a bit of a kickstarter treadmill, needing pledges on the next one to cover fulfillment on the last one...

**Polonius**

Bull0 wrote:
Personally I can't help thinking Mantic are on a bit of a kickstarter treadmill, needing pledges on the next one to cover fulfillment on the last one...

I dont' think there's any evidence of that. I'm as willing to hold Mantic to account as anybody, but the problems with the Kickstarters have generally been logistical, and not financial. Keep in mind that Mantic has delivered their kickstarters on time, even in cases where a bit more development would have helped.

The reason I doubt that Mantic is running borrowing from Peter to pay Paul is because they're able to release products on their own, albeit on a limited scale, and they're actually growing their games in FLGSs.

**judgedoug**

Kalamadea wrote:
judgedoug wrote:
TBH I could really use a sci fi dungeoncrawler. There's not really any on the market.

Somebody said that exact thing on the last Remote Presence podcast regarding Corvus Belli's proposed idea to do one in the Infinity universe. There are TONS of sci-fi dungeoncrawlers on the market. I'm sure there's many I'm missing, but most of the sci-fi dungeoncrawls instead take the form of "board the derelict spacecraft", most immediate that comes to mind is the obvious Space Hulk and Space Crusade. You've also had the Aliens boardgame and now Aliens vs Predator from what I've seen of that. Doom is still in production iirc from Fantasy Flight, Sedition Wars is still on sale for dirt cheap and plays OKish with the 2.0 rules. And of course there's the monster that is Imperial Assault. It doesn't get any more "sci-fi dungeoncrawl" than the what is literally Descent with a star wars reskin. MERCS had a kickstarter for the soon-to-release MERCS:Recon. I'm sure there's many more, but that's just a few of the big ones.

None of those are sci-fi dungeoncrawlers. I own and love Space Hulk, and have loved it as one of my favorite tactical board games since first edition.
Imperial Assault is nowhere near a dungeoncrawler either. There's no exploration. It's a tactical combat game versus the Imperial player.
Sedition Wars blows, even the v3.0 rules, and again, is just a bad tactical combat game. I'm looking forward to Doom, but again, that's a tactical combat game.

I want a sci-fi Hero Quest.

**Compel**

You explore in Imperial OK al Assault just f OK be, the main difference on that front is that you don't build the map as you go. Whereas in Dungeon Saga you open the door and reveal the map and contents.

In Imperial Assault you open the door and reveal the contents of the room. - it makes sense for a Sci if game. You have satellite / thermal imagery of a buildings layout before you arrive but you don't know what the specifics of it are going to be on the day you launch your assault... On the Imperials..

#namedrop

**agnosto**

Polonius wrote:
Bull0 wrote:
Personally I can't help thinking Mantic are on a bit of a kickstarter treadmill, needing pledges on the next one to cover fulfillment on the last one...

I dont' think there's any evidence of that. I'm as willing to hold Mantic to account as anybody, but the problems with the Kickstarters have generally been logistical, and not financial. Keep in mind that Mantic has delivered their kickstarters on time, even in cases where a bit more development would have helped.

The reason I doubt that Mantic is running borrowing from Peter to pay Paul is because they're able to release products on their own, albeit on a limited scale, and they're actually growing their games in FLGSs.

I'm with you here. The one thing they've done right in their recent slew of Kickstarters is start by saying that they intend to have a limited scope run; the downside is that they still do the same things that they did with the larger-scale Kickstarters. Every single one of these things has been amateur hour and they wind-up treating backers/customers like rubes though I don't attribute any intentional ill-will here, they're just a small company that's pretty poorly run (thus the keystone cops reference). I think that they've learned some lessons but it's a reflection on their management when they continue to make the some of the same mistakes, over-and-over...and over.

**Azazelx**

Polonius wrote:
Keep in mind that Mantic has delivered their kickstarters on time, even in cases where a bit more development would have helped.

They typically aren't on time. There's almost always at least a slight delay, and more often than not, they end up splitting a considerable amount of the fulfilment into a second (or third) wave. Warpath for example is supposed to be shipping now, but there's no sign of that or even of when shipping will actually commence, and the rulebooks are confirmed as some time off yet.

**Zywus**

Azazelx wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Keep in mind that Mantic has delivered their kickstarters on time, even in cases where a bit more development would have helped.

They typically aren't on time. There's almost always at least a slight delay, and more often than not, they end up splitting a considerable amount of the fulfilment into a second (or third) wave. Warpath for example is supposed to be shipping now, but there's no sign of that or even of when shipping will actually commence, and the rulebooks are confirmed as some time off yet.

In Kickstarter terms, anything less then a year's delay is on time

**Barzam**

I came across a pic of what appear to be some of the player heroes on Lead Adventure. Oddly enough, I haven't seen this image anywhere else.

**Vain**

I like those, some very different options, I also like the infected one.

**DaveC**

The campaign this time around is a bit more streamlined than in the past, with just one pledge level, which will be priced at $100.00 USD. If you get in early, there will also be an identical version of this pledge, in limited quantities, offered at a discounted price ($90.00).

There will also be a retailer pledge level for those interested and qualifying stores.

The contents of the core pledge includes the CORE STAR SAGA BOX GAME (MSRP $79.99), the STAR SAGA MISSION CREATOR expansion (MSRP $39.99) and the STAR SAGA CHARACTER CREATOR expansion((MSRP $39.99). That’s $140 in retail value before we’ve met any of our planned stretch goals!

The contents of the core box will include:
• The Rulebook featuring tutorials and basic mechanics for novices, as well as expanded rules for veteran players.
• The Eiras Contract Mission Book with 10 narrative adventures, two intro missions, character bios and the story behind Eiras.
• High Quality Card Sheets with floor tiles and counters
• Four Character cards
• More than 100 Game Cards for equipment, skills, and all the powers of the Nexus player.
• A Selection of Custom Dice
• 32 Highly Detailed Miniatures including:
o Four Mercenary Heroes
o Three Bosses
o 24 Minions
• plus loads of scenery

**Zywus**

The contents of the core pledge includes the CORE STAR SAGA BOX GAME (MSRP $79.99), the STAR SAGA MISSION CREATOR expansion (MSRP $39.99) and the STAR SAGA CHARACTER CREATOR expansion((MSRP $39.99). That’s $140 in retail value before we’ve met any of our planned stretch goals!

Hmm,

...79.99
+ 39.99
+ 39.99

= 159.97 = $160

Is the expansions $30 rather than $40 or did they just add it wrong?

**agnosto**

Zywus wrote:
The contents of the core pledge includes the CORE STAR SAGA BOX GAME (MSRP $79.99), the STAR SAGA MISSION CREATOR expansion (MSRP $39.99) and the STAR SAGA CHARACTER CREATOR expansion((MSRP $39.99). That’s $140 in retail value before we’ve met any of our planned stretch goals!

Hmm,

...79.99
+ 39.99
+ 39.99

= 159.97 = $160

Is the expansions $30 rather than $40 or did they just add it wrong?

Yeah, they can't add. So, $100 plus shipping? Yeah, definitely a pass, especially when you consider that $40 for a character creator sounds really odd; how many pages can it be to justify $40? Why not roll the 40 or 50 pages from that book into the 40 or 50 pages of the mission creator and make a "creator book."

Naw, if I'm ever interested at all, I'll wait till it's at Miniature Market for $54.39 (like DS is now) or wait til they have one of big sales and get it for around $40.

**adamsouza**

Hyperbole shipping much ?

Yes, it will be cheaper to pick up the game later.

The real point of backing the Kickstarter will be getting the exclusives and freebies.

For instance, the core game comes with 4 heroes, who wants to bet by the end that KS backers don't get at least 12 ?

**agnosto**

adamsouza wrote:
Hyperbole shipping much ?

Yes, it will be cheaper to pick up the game later.

The real point of backing the Kickstarter will be getting the exclusives and freebies.

For instance, the core game comes with 4 heroes, who wants to bet by the end that KS backers don't get at least 12 ?

Yeah, it's only $5 (at least on the DS campaign) but paying retail plus the $5 for something that I can get shipped free later at 30% off; the savings alone will net me the freebies that they'll package and sell separately so it'll be a wash without having to deal with the rollercoaster ride of a Mantic Kickstarter after they change something, package something differently, or otherwise do their usual thing.

If it's your thing, go for it; I'll wait and see if it's worth it to me later, after they work out the inevitable issues, typos, poor writing, mispacks, etc. In other words, I'm happy to wait for a finished product instead of paying for a beta release that happens to come with a few freebies (DS had a total of 4 Kickstarter exclusive minis plus some art, etc that I wouldn't care about). So, yeah, if you're the type of person that must have the newest Blaine model, backing the KS is probably right up your alley. If you're a casual gamer who wants a refined product, you'll wait or go elsewhere because Mantic has never done it, to date (to my knowledge), straight out of the box.

**laffe**

Compel wrote:
Deadzone 2 went completely fine as far as I'm aware...

Or at least it did for me.

Well, it's the terrain kerfuffle with the half pipes that shafted people only getting the terrain pledge... which I did, because Mantic couldn't tell me during the KS exactly how much figures would be needed for each faction. I didn't want to blindly throw money at it, but thought the terrain looked good. Well colour me disappointed.

I jumped off Mars Attacks earlier for the same reason (lack of clarity during the KS), but regretted it later. Bought it at retail plus some of the expansions, would have been nice to get the exclusives for that one...

I backed TWD too, so I'm hoping that one will be smoother. It's not so much that Mantic are not allowed to mess up, but when they do they don't try to fix it.

**Azazelx**

adamsouza wrote:
Hyperbole shipping much ?

Uh... no.

Your'e aware that Mantic no longer use the cheap, flat rate model for charging shipping that they used way back during Dungeon Siege, aren't you? I guess not, if you think people are being hyperbolic in their expectations. I doubt that many of us here would be freaking out about $10 or $20, but we're most likely looking at a lot more than that.

Here are the presumed shipping bands from Warpath.

Spoiler:

Advanced Warfare was their $125 level, though there's a bit of an apples to oranges thing here as DS, and presumably SS (unfortunate acronym there!) will have what they're saying will be heavy cardstock, plus the game box, etc. And of course we have no idea how many figures it'll have by the end of the campaign, plus what the expansions actually are. I think it'd be safe to presume the shipping will be at least the same for AW, if not more. And of course, there'll be a pile of additional expansions that will drastically increase the shipping costs.

**lord_blackfang**

agnosto wrote:
$40 for a character creator sounds really odd; how many pages can it be to justify $40? Why not roll the 40 or 50 pages from that book into the 40 or 50 pages of the mission creator and make a "creator book."

I expect that to include something like one of each Warpath infantry sprue.

**judgedoug**

Compel wrote:
You explore in Imperial OK al Assault just f OK be, the main difference on that front is that you don't build the map as you go. Whereas in Dungeon Saga you open the door and reveal the map and contents.

In Imperial Assault you open the door and reveal the contents of the room. - it makes sense for a Sci if game. You have satellite / thermal imagery of a buildings layout before you arrive but you don't know what the specifics of it are going to be on the day you launch your assault... On the Imperials..

#namedrop

I disagree, having just finished playing a campaign for it, it's all about tactical combat and synergy between characters and their abilities/combos. The exploration part of it is basically, oh man, did we get to this objective in time? Is that stupid AT-AT going to be randomly in this tiny room?

**adamsouza**

Azazelx wrote:
adamsouza wrote:
Hyperbole shipping much ?

Uh... no.

Your'e aware that Mantic no longer use the cheap, flat rate model for charging shipping that they used way back during Dungeon Siege, aren't you? I guess not, if you think people are being hyperbolic in their expectations. I doubt that many of us here would be freaking out about $10 or $20, but we're most likely looking at a lot more than that.

Here are the presumed shipping bands from Warpath.

Spoiler:

Warfare

As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $10 to ship in the UK, $15 in the EU, $20 in the USA and Canada, and around $25 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.

Advanced Warfare

As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $20 in the EU, $25 in the USA and Canada, and around $50 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.

Total Warfare

As a rough estimate, the Total Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $60 in the USA and Canada, and around $70 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.

Ultimate Tyrant

As a rough estimate, the Ultimate Tyrant pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $90 in the USA and Canada, and around $125 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.

Advanced Warfare was their $125 level, though there's a bit of an apples to oranges thing here as DS, and presumably SS (unfortunate acronym there!) will have what they're saying will be heavy cardstock, plus the game box, etc. And of course we have no idea how many figures it'll have by the end of the campaign, plus what the expansions actually are. I think it'd be safe to presume the shipping will be at least the same for AW, if not more. And of course, there'll be a pile of additional expansions that will drastically increase the shipping costs.

Agnasto is from the US. I am from the US. $25 shipping for that much stuff overseas is reasonable. $100=/=$25.

You guys in Australia get screwed by GW and Mantic. I'm suprised you don't just game with cardstock models.

**Azazelx**

adamsouza wrote:

Agnasto is from the US. I am from the US. $25 shipping for that much stuff overseas is reasonable. $100=/=$25.

You guys in Australia get screwed by GW and Mantic. I'm suprised you don't just game with cardstock models.

I did say that $20 isn't a biggie. The larger pledges cost quite a lot more - not counting some people being hit for duty etc from items shipped UPS? It'll be interesting to see what the actual postage estimates are for the "boxed set plus all expansions" type pledges to the US. After the last few minis campaigns, there were a lot of US backers who were unpleasantly surprised about the shipping costs.

The funny thing is that if we buy directly from Mantic's webstore, even in Australia we can get free shipping if we spend over a certain amount, but if we save a decent amount, but not that much by buying via KS, we pay a huge percentage on top as shipping... I haven't run the numbers, but it might work out cheaper to buy discounted Mantic with free shipping after release, even for us Aussies. There are also plenty of sources for GW stuff with free shipping or even with shipping added that come in comfortably under local retail prices - which is where the competition for my wallet comes from here. Prospero now or Star Saga in a year? Not a terribly hard choice, unfortunately for Mantic...

**agnosto**

adamsouza wrote:
Azazelx wrote:
adamsouza wrote:
Hyperbole shipping much ?

Uh... no.

Your'e aware that Mantic no longer use the cheap, flat rate model for charging shipping that they used way back during Dungeon Siege, aren't you? I guess not, if you think people are being hyperbolic in their expectations. I doubt that many of us here would be freaking out about $10 or $20, but we're most likely looking at a lot more than that.

Here are the presumed shipping bands from Warpath.

Spoiler:

Warfare

As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $10 to ship in the UK, $15 in the EU, $20 in the USA and Canada, and around $25 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.

Advanced Warfare

As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $20 in the EU, $25 in the USA and Canada, and around $50 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.

Total Warfare

As a rough estimate, the Total Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $60 in the USA and Canada, and around $70 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.

Ultimate Tyrant

As a rough estimate, the Ultimate Tyrant pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $90 in the USA and Canada, and around $125 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.

Advanced Warfare was their $125 level, though there's a bit of an apples to oranges thing here as DS, and presumably SS (unfortunate acronym there!) will have what they're saying will be heavy cardstock, plus the game box, etc. And of course we have no idea how many figures it'll have by the end of the campaign, plus what the expansions actually are. I think it'd be safe to presume the shipping will be at least the same for AW, if not more. And of course, there'll be a pile of additional expansions that will drastically increase the shipping costs.

Agnasto is from the US. I am from the US. $25 shipping for that much stuff overseas is reasonable. $100=/=$25.

You guys in Australia get screwed by GW and Mantic. I'm suprised you don't just game with cardstock models.

I may have to change my handle to that so I can say, "Nasty as I wanna be." (2Live Crew reference).

For me it's not so much the shipping but not knowing which of the multiple personalities that comprises Mantic will show up. When Mantic is focused and actually tries to do a good job, the result isn't bad, when they rush it out and rubber stamp whatever ape-arm model comes out of the machines, not so much. In my opinion, when I consider Mantic products, it's better for me to wait and see what the final product looks like rather than pay an early adopter tax on something I might wind up giving away or tossing later because it's so bad that it just takes up space in my nerd closet (Deadzone). To each their own but I'd rather put the $125+ into some more stock (my other hobby) and likely come out ahead rather than gamble on Mantic actually making a playable game.