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I really like Dreamforges Minaitures and Frostgrave, but Dreamforges entire army range is generic hightech powered guys and Frostgrave's entire line of models is generic fantasy figures, suitable for D&D and Frostgrave. Part of the appeal to both lines of minaitures is they are generic enough to use in other games.

Mitochondria wrote:
They are like the cheating girlfriend who only fethed five dudes this last weekend, instead of the eight she fethed the weekend before.

It's funny you bring up the girlfriend analogy, because a lot of the complaining here sounds like a bitter ex complaining about the new girlfriend....

EVERY miniatures game has gotten expensive.
EVERY miniatures game has multiple editions with rules changes someone doesn't like.
EVERY game has an aesthetic that someone doesn't like.
EVERYONE has a different opinion on how GW should have done something.

 Korinov wrote:

Chikout wrote:
Mantic's best stuff is about on par with gw's worst.

To a certain degree this is an issue depending on each one's tastes but... IMO such an statement merely proves you have a very limited knowledge of Mantic's catalogue. They've come a long way since some of their worst stuff. I'd insist you to check the Warpath thread in N&R and have a look at the latest pictures.

Dreamforge has a very limited and very generic aesthetic. Frostgrave is interesting but also quite generic. Avatars of war stuff looks good but they have major shipping issues.

I'd like to know what makes Dreamforge and Frostrave "generic" and large parts of GW's catalogue the opposite.


Hello, I'm such an unique and distinctive model design.

I didn't mean to be combatitive, so sorry if I made you angry. To answer your queries, the imperial guard are generic which is why I dont care for them, fortunately this is just one faction out of more than 40. Dreamforge's entire catalogue is like the space marines with the gothic element taken out.
That gothic element is what makes 40k appealing to me.
The frostgrave cultists pretty much conform to the sterotype of cultists complete with the pointy hats.
I have seen the Warpath stuff and it is better but still not there yet. I would love for a competitor to offer more amazing plastic minis but I haven't seen it yet. The coolmini stuff looks great but the detail looks a bit fuzzy on the final minis.

Chikout wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

Chikout wrote:
Mantic's best stuff is about on par with gw's worst.

To a certain degree this is an issue depending on each one's tastes but... IMO such an statement merely proves you have a very limited knowledge of Mantic's catalogue. They've come a long way since some of their worst stuff. I'd insist you to check the Warpath thread in N&R and have a look at the latest pictures.

Dreamforge has a very limited and very generic aesthetic. Frostgrave is interesting but also quite generic. Avatars of war stuff looks good but they have major shipping issues.

I'd like to know what makes Dreamforge and Frostrave "generic" and large parts of GW's catalogue the opposite.


Hello, I'm such an unique and distinctive model design.

I didn't mean to be combatitive, so sorry if I made you angry. To answer your queries, the imperial guard are generic which is why I dont care for them, fortunately this is just one faction out of more than 40. Dreamforge's entire catalogue is like the space marines with the gothic element taken out.
That gothic element is what makes 40k appealing to me.
The frostgrave cultists pretty much conform to the sterotype of cultists complete with the pointy hats.
I have seen the Warpath stuff and it is better but still not there yet. I would love for a competitor to offer more amazing plastic minis but I haven't seen it yet. The coolmini stuff looks great but the detail looks a bit fuzzy on the final minis.

I would say Kingdom Death are the only ones who have come close (and indeed, surpassed in some respects) to GWs hard plastics. Unfortunately they're only usable in a super expensive board game and not a war game :(

I've just had a look at the Blood Bowl website.

They have free downloads and wallpapers.

Small steps to bring themselves in line with what others do (and GW used to do!).

Shows potential.

 Korinov wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:
Okay... I'll bite. Which manufacturer offers (highclass) SciFi and (High-Fantasy) in plastic for a game with mini counts in the same area like WH40k or Aos?

Does said manufacturer also have to be including at least five skulls per model?

I mean, I quoted a post that talked about "unparalleled" quality. Nothing was said about the material, or the genre, or the games intended to be played with said models.

Anyway, since you seem to be going down that route, I'd say Mantic. Just check the stuff they've been showing for their future Warpath release (there's a thread in the News & Rumours section if you want to see it there).

Have you seen Dreamforge's range? Or Frostgrave's plastic boxes? Or Perry Miniatures, whose minis can be used for fantasy settings?

If we move away from plastics, because you know, materials such as resin and metal are also valid for manufacturing miniatures, the list is endless. Hitech Miniatures (you may or may not like the style, but the quality is undeniable), Raging Heroes, Russian Alternative, MOM Miniatures, Avatars of War, etc etc.

If we only take model quality into account, and disregard settings, styles and materials... in my eyes nothing has still managed to beat some of the models Rackham released during the 00s. Back then they just made most GW sculptors look like pathetic amateurs. So when I read about GW's "unparalelled" quality I can't help but laugh.

As I said, it's very worthwhile to just have a look outside the GW bubble.

I'll neglect your snarky remark at the beginning and the end (because going to discuss esthetics won't lead anywhere).

To explain the requirements I set:

1. For me building and painting is a very important part of the hobby and hardplastic offers me most of my "joy". Especially if I have lot's of bits lying around where I can think about how to build or modify something.
2. I WANT Fantasy or SciFi. I'm not interessted (at all) in historicals. Therefore I'm asking for proper alternatives.

Let's see your list:

Frostgrave: Yes, has potential. But currently offers only 4 different types of plastics AFAIK. If you'd like something outside this you're once more stuck with metal figures (with all of their advantages and disadvantages).

Mantic: VERY hit and miss. I backed five of their kickstarters. Quality in general is mediocre (lots of mold lines, stupid joints). Hardplastic is (a tad) better than their restics.The difference between their artworks (and often you have to decide based on this if you participate in a kickstarter) and the final product is often very large.

Dreamforge: Never tried that because I don't like their esthetics. But yes: heard only good about their quality.

Avatars of War: Have several of their metall chars and two boxes of dwarfs. While I do like the esthetics of them they have been a nightmare to clean. I really needed several tries (all of them aborted after half an hour) because their restic is bad. Besides that the esthetics is very incoherent if Felix is not designing them. Besides very slow in offering nex minis (and don't get me started about their Indigogo campaign)

HiTech: Never tried that because I don't like their esthetics. Heard mixed about their quality.

Raging Heroes: Backed their TGG campaigns. Quality is good but a tad fragile and limited possibilites to convert. But they're expensive as well.

Russian alternative, MOM: Never tried.


So it's funny that you are assuming that I never looked outside GW. Which is obviously not true as I already for so many different systems and from different manufacturers...

hobojebus wrote:If 8th is bad I'm sure a fan made 9th will come about, the people did a great job with fantasy.

They showed us that if GW keeps failing we as a community can do better.

Really? Why couldn't they do that now? We could have had a community rules set done for the last 20 years and not one showed up. All we get are "FAQs" by a few groups. So how come nobody has tackled the issue of actually making a AWESOME rules set? It can't be done. We the community would chew it up and spit it out. No we as a community can't do better that is why we stick to GW like a stray dog and only will play their rules. If not we don't we move on to other rule sets that are "official" from another company but will never play "an official" rules set done by us the community. We can't do it. Otherwise it would have been done by now.

SKR.HH wrote:

Frostgrave: Yes, has potential. But currently offers only 4 different types of plastics AFAIK. If you'd like something outside this you're once more stuck with metal figures (with all of their advantages and disadvantages).

Russian alternative, MOM: Never tried.


So it's funny that you are assuming that I never looked outside GW. Which is obviously not true as I already for so many different systems and from different manufacturers...

Frostgraves Humans are good, but they are still about 10 years behind GW's current offerings, which means they are about level with GW's Bretonnain Men at Arms (a great kit IMO).

If you compared the new Frostgrave Gnolls to GW's Skaven they might be better than GW's multipart Skaven from the late 90's, but the Gnolls lag behind GW's 8th ed Skaven by miles.

Russian Alternative are very good, but then you are comparing Metal to Plastic, (I generally prefer to compare like vs like). I also paid over 20 Euro to get my Dwarf Character, which is not cheaper than buying direct from GW.

I also dabble in many different systems and with many different companies, and when others list off companies and claim that they are better than GW I would hope they actually have first hand experience with said systems or models or could they please leave a disclaimer 'I have not had first hand experience with said company/models but...'.

SKR.HH wrote:1. For me building and painting is a very important part of the hobby and hardplastic offers me most of my "joy". Especially if I have lot's of bits lying around where I can think about how to build or modify something.
2. I WANT Fantasy or SciFi. I'm not interessted (at all) in historicals. Therefore I'm asking for proper alternatives.

Well those are your specific, personal requirements. My original comment was on someone saying that GW's kits were of "unparalleled" quality, which I disputed. Nothing was said about materials, looks, etc. Of course if someone has very specific requirements, which mostly coincide with what GW offers, then they'll be likely attracted to GW's catalogue only.

Lastly, "Fantasy" and "SciFi" can mean a crazy amount of things. Even High Fantasy settings tend to have some human factions with medieval/renaissance looks, so historical models may well be considered too. In fact, the Perry's nowadays are probably among the best choices for WHFB's Empire and DoW, in regards to price/quality ratio.

Frostgrave: Yes, has potential. But currently offers only 4 different types of plastics AFAIK. If you'd like something outside this you're once more stuck with metal figures (with all of their advantages and disadvantages).

True, but in all fairness they've begun to produce plastic kits very, very recently. So far they have a pretty good record, and it seems they intend to keep going, which is great news IMO.

Mantic: VERY hit and miss. I backed five of their kickstarters. Quality in general is mediocre (lots of mold lines, stupid joints). Hardplastic is (a tad) better than their restics.The difference between their artworks (and often you have to decide based on this if you participate in a kickstarter) and the final product is often very large.

True again. Yes, Mantic is extremely hit and miss with their models. They've also gone down a very risky route with some of their designs (I'm thinking about fantasy elves and dwarves) which people seems to either love or downright loathe. Personally, I like their dwarves (although the models themselves are mostly lacklustre) and don't mind the elves (wouldn't buy them though). In any case "hit and miss" is what tends to happen when any company aims to have a wide catalogue and expand it quickly. GW's catalogue is exactly the same, with truly horrible models still available (or at least they were when I last checked).

Also Mantic are getting better. Some of their worst offenders (drakon riders, urgh) are already gone, and the new Warpath stuff looks excellent.

Avatars of War: Have several of their metall chars and two boxes of dwarfs. While I do like the esthetics of them they have been a nightmare to clean. I really needed several tries (all of them aborted after half an hour) because their restic is bad. Besides that the esthetics is very incoherent if Felix is not designing them. Besides very slow in offering nex minis (and don't get me started about their Indigogo campaign)

The metals are ace, the restic is crappy indeed. I backed the vestals crowdfunding and will probably end up selling the models. The production was also plagued with issues.

HiTech: Never tried that because I don't like their esthetics. Heard mixed about their quality.

I got one of their models recently and, as far as resin goes, it's top notch. Don't know about the past though, because some of these small companies have come a long way since they started (heard the same about Puppetswar).

Russian alternative, MOM: Never tried.

Russian alternative has both metal and resin. The metal stuff is high quality (I have several, ahem, evil dwarves to attest it), never tried the resin stuff. MOM is simply fantastic for the price, and it looks they're expanding their catalogue at a nice rate, which is very good news.

So it's funny that you are assuming that I never looked outside GW. Which is obviously not true as I already for so many different systems and from different manufacturers...

My apologies. I've encountered too many people who claimed GW's models were undisputably the best, and many of them had simply never bothered to check other companies before making such claims.

StygianBeach wrote:Frostgraves Humans are good, but they are still about 10 years behind GW's current offerings, which means they are about level with GW's Bretonnain Men at Arms (a great kit IMO).

If you compared the new Frostgrave Gnolls to GW's Skaven they might be better than GW's multipart Skaven from the late 90's, but the Gnolls lag behind GW's 8th ed Skaven by miles.

How do their humans compare to this? Mere curiosity.

I also dabble in many different systems and with many different companies, and when others list off companies and claim that they are better than GW I would hope they actually have first hand experience with said systems or models or could they please leave a disclaimer 'I have not had first hand experience with said company/models but...'.

Again, I didn't claim anyone was outright "better" than GW, I just stated that I could not agree with someone saying GW's models were of "unparalleled" quality. And I tend to make sure I have some experience with certain models/companies before commenting on them. If I say something about some models, be sure either I own them or at least I've seen them in the flesh and asked about them.

 Korinov wrote:

Mantic: VERY hit and miss. I backed five of their kickstarters. Quality in general is mediocre (lots of mold lines, stupid joints). Hardplastic is (a tad) better than their restics.The difference between their artworks (and often you have to decide based on this if you participate in a kickstarter) and the final product is often very large.

True again. Yes, Mantic is extremely hit and miss with their models. They've also gone down a very risky route with some of their designs (I'm thinking about fantasy elves and dwarves) which people seems to either love or downright loathe. Personally, I like their dwarves (although the models themselves are mostly lacklustre) and don't mind the elves (wouldn't buy them though). In any case "hit and miss" is what tends to happen when any company aims to have a wide catalogue and expand it quickly. GW's catalogue is exactly the same, with truly horrible models still available (or at least they were when I last checked).

Also Mantic are getting better. Some of their worst offenders (drakon riders, urgh) are already gone, and the new Warpath stuff looks excellent.

I'm still willed to get convinced on this (waiting on my Warpath pledge) but I'll wait until I have the models in my hands before revoking my judgement. Seeing artworks/renders doesn't convince me anymore. And they do still produce IMO horrible designs from time to time (like the elf chariots). Additionally the (technical) design ... leaves room for improvement...

Totally.

Pacific wrote:Davor mentioned a few pages ago that Dakka is full of GW fans, waiting for the games to become better. And it's taken thinking about that to realise that perhaps I'm not any more, and haven't been for some time..

It's the same for me, although Blood Bowl seems to the game that could drag me back into GW land, and maybe the next Epic-like game (Adeptus Titanicus?). The old versions of both kinda died while still good (or at least feeling good) so there no lack of confidence in them. For their main games it feels like they had enough tries (years and version) to make things better (be it rules or the cost structure, or whatever is one's personal problem with the games). With these games, at least, I won't need to buy huge numbers of miniatures if I choose to buy into them so while not cheap they won't be "GW main game" levels of ridiculous expensive.

Mitochondria wrote:
They are like the cheating girlfriend who only fethed five dudes this last weekend, instead of the eight she fethed the weekend before.

Damn. You don't have much luck with girls, do you? I feel sorry for you.

But here's an advice: forget her. Don't think or talk about her ever again. You'll feel so much better. Oh, and do the same with GW. Yes, it's hard to see all those dudes playing GW games every weekend - but you need to let go.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
They are like the cheating girlfriend who only fethed five dudes this last weekend, instead of the eight she fethed the weekend before.

Damn. You don't have much luck with girls, do you? I feel sorry for you.

But here's an advice: forget her. Don't think or talk about her ever again. You'll feel so much better. Oh, and do the same with GW. Yes, it's hard to see all those dudes playing GW games every weekend - but you need to let go.

I don't get the "girlfriend" analogy at all.

1. If you behaved like this towards your (ex-)girlfriend it would be considered borderline stalking.
2. If you are lucky enough to get a girlfriend it should be a monogamous relationship. So, YOU should stop making (openly) around and checking what's available on the market as well.

The metaphor is simply silly.

 Korinov wrote:

If you compared the new Frostgrave Gnolls to GW's Skaven they might be better than GW's multipart Skaven from the late 90's, but the Gnolls lag behind GW's 8th ed Skaven by miles.

How do their humans compare to this? Mere curiosity.

I though people did not like the State Troops because of the Shoeless guy?
No Reichland General would have a Shoeless guy under his command, but I am sure an Ostland General would not care.

I have not had first hand experience with the State Troop Sprue, but from what I can tell from internet picture and youtube they are not quite as good as the Bretonnain Men at Arms, mainly due to aesthetics. I am not sure what your point is though?

How old is that State Troop Box now? 10 years?

Try Comparing the Frostgrave Cultists with the new Silver Tower Cultists, (probably not an entirely fair comparison because the Silver Tower cultists are not entirely human), but the GW sculpts are miles ahead.

Mere curiosity, what do you think of the Frostgrave Gnolls? I want to like them... but...

 StygianBeach wrote:

How old is that State Troop Box now? 10 years?

Try Comparing the Frostgrave Cultists with the new Silver Tower Cultists, (probably not an entirely fair comparison because the Silver Tower cultists are not entirely human), but the GW sculpts are miles ahead.

Mere curiosity, what do you think of the Frostgrave Gnolls? I want to like them... but...

Well, you did state North Star is ten years behind ... so you should compare them to State Troopers...

They kicked FFG to the curb and cut me off from more Conquest. Bugger them.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
They kicked FFG to the curb and cut me off from more Conquest. Bugger them.

When was it confirmed that GW kicked FFG?

SKR.HH wrote:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
They kicked FFG to the curb and cut me off from more Conquest. Bugger them.

When was it confirmed that GW kicked FFG?

It wasn't. I've seen most people assume it was mutual.

GW asked ffg to stop making x-wing and armada as they are eating into their sales, ffg of course refused as those games make way more than GW products do so GW pulled the licence out of spite.

FFG's got a backlog of GW stuff it's not released yet this was not something they saw coming.

-

hobojebus wrote:
GW asked ffg to stop making x-wing and armada as they are eating into their sales, ffg of course refused as those games make way more than GW products do so GW pulled the licence out of spite.

FFG's got a backlog of GW stuff it's not released yet this was not something they saw coming.

Drama much?

If it was such an issue then the (5-7 year?) licence wouldn't have been placed with FFG? If FFG had a backlog of "products" then they would have been releasing those over the last year and a half rather than almost nothing on the GW licence aside from PDG RPGs.

The licence quite clearly came to a mutual end as FFG has been ramping down on GW licenced material for over a year. So yeah, you're talking nonsense.

 Harriticus wrote:
So, can we agree that GW has gotten better in the last year?

Burning of Prospero has a 175% price increase in Oz over its UK price.
Burning of Prospero has a 193% price increase in NZ over its UK price.

That level of price disparity cannot be explained away with simple 'shipping costs', 'minimum wage' and the other nonsense apologists always spout.

So no. We don't agree that GW has gotten better. The man behind the curtain may be different, but he's pulling the same levers.

hobojebus wrote:
GW asked ffg to stop making x-wing and armada as they are eating into their sales

No they didn't.

Well progress, is, as ever a slow process and really think its a smidge early to judge

Whilst the assorted big boxes are an amble in the right direction they are still more or less giant 'Get Started' boxes with a game tagged on.

The first steps into Internet interaction and YouTube casts seems like a positive, hopefully the shouty fudgewits won't scare them off this time.

Personally I think the success or otherwise of 8th Ed WH40K will be the defining factor for nu-GW, the specilist games coming back will be funs but they are largely something we can get elsewhere from other providers

 Harriticus wrote:

On the lore front, GW has finally acceded to fan demands and started progressing the story. Though the actual events have been lackluster, I think there's a sense that gak is finally going down in 999999.M41.

The Spoonfeed Brigade doesn't speak for all of us. Indeed for my money, the "advancement" is the sour part of the pudding, making it hard to enjoy the better stuff they've been doing.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

On the lore front, GW has finally acceded to fan demands and started progressing the story. Though the actual events have been lackluster, I think there's a sense that gak is finally going down in 999999.M41.

The Spoonfeed Brigade doesn't speak for all of us. Indeed for my money, the "advancement" is the sour part of the pudding, making it hard to enjoy the better stuff they've been doing.

Seconded. I want a setting and freedomn into it. Not a story. The impeding doom of 40K makes sense as long as is impeding.

If you want to expand the setting, add more Xenos (like happened with tau back then), look at his rich history (Horus Heresy but there is more).

Furthermore, I am quite tired to see new stuff added (some I love, some I loathe) when we have half of the codex involved in rocket tag gameplay and the other half just mad of "have-nots" .

Many here seem to confuse "has gotten better" with "didn't change at all" or even "didn't do things exactly as I wanted".

GW has gotten a HELL of a lot better.
From releases to FAQ to money-saving boxes and actually communicating with the fanbase...
They improved a whole fething lot.

Did they change everything that is bad, like prices?
No.

But they have, without a doubt, gotten better.
Doesn't mean they're subjectvely good. Or an utopian rulership for us modeling peasants. BUT they improved.

They came from a pretty bad position (and no matter what some claim, it could have gotten worse) and have climbed up.

You can argue that several key factors still are missing and you wouldn't be wrong, but they show a promising trend. However it is not a valid argument to say "no they didn't improve because they didn't do X" because then you sound like the guys in the Life of Brian dissing the Romans.
What did GW do for us? New releases, FAQ's, new factions, good value boxes, communication? And what else? NOTHING!
They've done NOTHING for us!

I never felt better concerning GW. I hope they continue to improve.

FaQ are nice, yeah. Like 5 years late.
BUT! They do not fix the messy, faulty, bloated and still inbalanced ruleset. They're making it even worse by adding factions after factions after factions.

The rules are bad. FAQ do not fix that. They're a combination of very old rules which were designed for small skirmishes and super random stuff which is just that... random.


Prices... yeah a few factions have ONE starter set which still is way too expensive... What if I don't want the stuff in that? Oh right, all the other stuff did not get reduced.

All new released are more expensive than the older ones.

NOTHING changed.

RoninXiC wrote:

NOTHING changed.

Uh. Yes.
Roman complainer's club is over there please

No, you missed my point. They tried to do stuff. Doing stuff is not changing things.

If I change the colour of my car while it's engine is still broken.. Nothing changed.

Yes, I think GW as a company present a much better image than they did at any time in the past decade. The big issue is that neither of their main 2 games have rules that are worth playing. If 40k was a joy to play, I wouldn't even care about 50 euro light vehicles.