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SKR.HH wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:

How old is that State Troop Box now? 10 years?

Try Comparing the Frostgrave Cultists with the new Silver Tower Cultists, (probably not an entirely fair comparison because the Silver Tower cultists are not entirely human), but the GW sculpts are miles ahead.

Mere curiosity, what do you think of the Frostgrave Gnolls? I want to like them... but...

Well, you did state North Star is ten years behind ... so you should compare them to State Troopers...

That was my point by asking if they are 10 years old...

 Thairne wrote:
Many here seem to confuse "has gotten better" with "didn't change at all" or even "didn't do things exactly as I wanted".

GW has gotten a HELL of a lot better.
From releases to FAQ to money-saving boxes and actually communicating with the fanbase...
They improved a whole fething lot.

Did they change everything that is bad, like prices?
No.

But they have, without a doubt, gotten better.
Doesn't mean they're subjectvely good. Or an utopian rulership for us modeling peasants. BUT they improved.

They came from a pretty bad position (and no matter what some claim, it could have gotten worse) and have climbed up.

You can argue that several key factors still are missing and you wouldn't be wrong, but they show a promising trend. However it is not a valid argument to say "no they didn't improve because they didn't do X" because then you sound like the guys in the Life of Brian dissing the Romans.
What did GW do for us? New releases, FAQ's, new factions, good value boxes, communication? And what else? NOTHING!
They've done NOTHING for us!

I never felt better concerning GW. I hope they continue to improve.

Half of the FAQs made stuff worse. Think about Dark Eldar. Money saving box are a good thing, true.
I actually kind of almost understand the pricing, maybe. The point is that along with high price I want high quality.

Both in rules writing, and in concepts, they still produce massive blunders and for what concern my personal tastes their shift toward huge models and wow-esque style in some model is not a good sing. Said this, I appreciated Mechanicus, Scions and much stuff. Heck, I even like the Taurox Prime if you modify it with the wheels!

They show, recently, good intentions but good will is not enough. If people ask for fixed CSM, you do not release 5 different books barely functional. Is the same with faqs. Is as if the true talents left the studio, or are overworked, or there is some problem in coordination and management. They lack vision and unity in design, that is needed in such huge range of models and rules. Good will is not enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RoninXiC wrote:
No, you missed my point. They tried to do stuff.

If I change the colour of my car while it's engine is still broken.. Nothing changed.

Yes, basically this. They behave like a kid that has the parents or the teacher asking him do do stuff. He is bad a school, does not behave well, etc..

So he studies a bit, studies for a "C", and shows that he is doing "something" so he will receive a present for christmas (our money). But there is not true attempt, is not heartfelt.

RoninXiC wrote:
No, you missed my point. They tried to do stuff. Doing stuff is not changing things.

If I change the colour of my car while it's engine is still broken.. Nothing changed.

Your engine didn't change. Your car is still different to before.

RoninXiC wrote:
FaQ are nice, yeah. Like 5 years late.
BUT! They do not fix the messy, faulty, bloated and still inbalanced ruleset. They're making it even worse by adding factions after factions after factions.

The rules are bad. FAQ do not fix that. They're a combination of very old rules which were designed for small skirmishes and super random stuff which is just that... random.


Prices... yeah a few factions have ONE starter set which still is way too expensive... What if I don't want the stuff in that? Oh right, all the other stuff did not get reduced.

All new released are more expensive than the older ones.

NOTHING changed.

The FAQs do improve the rules. They don't fix them, no (assume you're talking about 40k), but it's an improvement.

ONE starter set with a great discount is better than NO starter set, or one with less discount (old ones). So again, a change for the better.

And old models did go down in price. AoS reboxings are cheaper per model. So again, a change.

And far from all new models are more expensive. Look at Deathwatch compared to Sternguard.

You also left out Specialist Games returning, the deluge of great board games with cheap minis, and above all the HUGE change in community interaction through Warhammer TV, AoS community-sourced rules and other things. This alone would constitute a huge positive change.


So saying NOTHING changed is patently false. There is no denying these things are a net positive.

Apart from the 25 start collecting boxes they have released in just nine months. GW have released 19 additional discounted bundles in 2016 for a total of 44 discounted bundles in 41 weeks. That's not counting the four board games.

So?
They used to have battleboxes for all armies. You saved money with them too.

Not complaining about those boxes... Its the additonal stuff which is an insult.

Yes.

RoninXiC wrote:
So?
They used to have battleboxes for all armies. You saved money with them too.

Not complaining about those boxes... Its the additonal stuff which is an insult.

I was making two points. One, they are releasing these boxes fast. They have already done boxes for almost every faction in 40k. Two, it is not just start collecting stuff (which several people have been claiming) It is boxes like the death masque set or the recent strike force box or the beat claw raiders box etc, etc.
I'm not saying either that this is the best it's been but they are returning to doing some of the reasonably good stuff they used to do and they are doing it fast.

It has definitely gotten better.
But several of our players in our gaming group have abandoned buying GW products.
Some of them are still playing, mostly Apoc.

Deathwatch Overkill, Death Masque, Deathstorm all have "Death" in the name and considerable discounts on the models.

I'm not crazy that Metamorphs cost $8 a model, but Deathwatch Overkill is like getting FREE Deathwatch models.
Hell, Death Masque was like getting FREE Deathwatch models.

They must really want us to play Deathwatch...

 notprop wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
GW asked ffg to stop making x-wing and armada as they are eating into their sales, ffg of course refused as those games make way more than GW products do so GW pulled the licence out of spite.

FFG's got a backlog of GW stuff it's not released yet this was not something they saw coming.

Drama much?

If it was such an issue then the (5-7 year?) licence wouldn't have been placed with FFG? If FFG had a backlog of "products" then they would have been releasing those over the last year and a half rather than almost nothing on the GW licence aside from PDG RPGs.

The licence quite clearly came to a mutual end as FFG has been ramping down on GW licenced material for over a year. So yeah, you're talking nonsense.

Nope. FFG and GW have parted ways because FFG will shortly be releasing RuneWars an unpainted fantasy miniature game which sort of will be straddling Warhammer/KoW and X-Wing and that apparently breaks their licensing agreement.

You can credit X-Wing and Armada for giving FFG the muscle and confidence to dare go face GW in their turf, but everyone in the industry knows that anything half decent and star wars related was going to be a massive hit just like LotR was back in the day.

And the games that shares engines (Star Trek, and the world war i aces game) aren't really played anywhere en masse.

So its not that the game is just so awesome that all versions of it are being played everywhere.

Its that the one with the star wars license has a huge IP to ride on top of.

It is my understanding that Wizkids' approach to game design is somewhat lax, and as a consequence the Star Trek version has suffered with crippling balance issues.

Wings Of Glory/War has perhaps suffered because its original producers went bust, I know I've tried to buy it in the past (even though I believe it is reprinted now) and not been able to track down a core set for reasonable money.

No doubt Star Wars is a huge draw, but there's probably other reasons that the other games aren't so high profile.

I used to be grumpy as hell with GW circa 6th edition, now I am loving what they are putting out.

Still bummed about AoS killing fantasy though.

Thairne wrote:Many here seem to confuse "has gotten better" with "didn't change at all" or even "didn't do things exactly as I wanted".

True. Let's see how this goes.

GW has gotten a HELL of a lot better.

Hmmm.... so you accusing of people "didn't do thins exactly as I wanted" maybe GW did what you wanted?

From releases to FAQ

What FAQs? I don't see and new official FAQs just first drafts. That is what about a month or so ago?

to money-saving boxes

Which a lot of people wouldn't have bought if they were not included or in single packs like they were before. Why are the prices are increasing when you are buying outside of these savings? So GW is not fixing and actually making worse for what a lot of issues people are having.

and actually communicating with the fanbase...

Actually they are not. When people ask for rules, non are give. "We will pass it along". So where is this communication? Where is this actual back and forth talk that is happening? Yes I see sneak peeks and teases now, and a few "one sentence" comments. One sentence comments is not communication.

They improved a whole fething lot.

You named 3 things. That is not a fething lot.

Did they change everything that is bad, like prices?
No.

But they have, without a doubt, gotten better.
Doesn't mean they're subjectvely good. Or an utopian rulership for us modeling peasants. BUT they improved.

They came from a pretty bad position (and no matter what some claim, it could have gotten worse) and have climbed up.

As I said in other posts, these are all "Illusions" of change. As you said prices are still bad. Really look, what has changed? Social media? Yes that is a change. Still that is not a lot of change. I am going by your terminology. You said a lot. If anything they have change little. Then again, little is good. It got me to spend so much for me in 2016 than I have in the last few years combined.

You can argue that several key factors still are missing and you wouldn't be wrong, but they show a promising trend. However it is not a valid argument to say "no they didn't improve because they didn't do X" because then you sound like the guys in the Life of Brian dissing the Romans.
What did GW do for us? New releases, FAQ's, new factions, good value boxes, communication? And what else? NOTHING!
They've done NOTHING for us!

Agree. Fully correct.

I never felt better concerning GW. I hope they continue to improve.

Again I agree and I really do hope so. Sadly I think it will take the 8th edition for 40K to really see the effects. GW had a great opportunity to change but with the release of Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult and the Chaos Space Marine and Blood Angel releases just shows it's the same old GW right now. They could have changed and they choose not to.

But let's look at the positive because for once it's great to fell excited for GW again. But at the same time let's be realistic as well. GW have improved a small amount not a lot or huge improvement as others claim.

oh HELLS YEA.

GW is SO much better now.

I'm a fan.

Here is a thought. After rereading some of the comments I have changed my mind now. If GW has gotten better, how come I am not buying the individual kits? I have bought a lot of the starter boxes. Maybe 4 of them. Maybe more. Depression kicked in for me so I gave up on a lot of projects that I was excited for. For me that is a lot for others, it's nothing, I know. I have bought Silver Tower, Overkill, my Genestealer Codex twice (on on iPad other physical book), Chaos Stronghold set and a bit other things and books. For me I have spent Hundred's of dollars. Maybe a bit over a thousand. I don't know. For me as I said, that is huge. For others I know it's chump change and I didn't buy much.

Other than that, I haven't bought individual boxes. Now that I lost my job money is tight. So spending stopped in the last few months that wouldn't have happened if I was working. Might get some money next month and instead of buying individual kits for the Stealers, I am thinking of getting another Overkill set. I am sure it will be sold out by then, still thing is, if GW has changed how come I am spending a lot of money but it's not on the the individual kits?

On one end I see a softer kinder GW, so I am spending money but on the other hand I scoff at buying GW product because of the crazy prices or not worth the value that GW is asking of me to do so.

So has GW gotten better? Yes. Has GW changed? No.

 auticus wrote:
And the games that shares engines (Star Trek, and the world war i aces game) aren't really played anywhere en masse.

So its not that the game is just so awesome that all versions of it are being played everywhere.

Its that the one with the star wars license has a huge IP to ride on top of.

Attack wing reused old models from a previous game, they had terrible detail a crap paint job and were not to scale so were not worth the price being asked.

On top of that the balance was non existent due to poor points costs the Borg with 360 movement and shooting as well as the most attack dice were broken for too long.

Then you have the BS with exclusives from events.

Plus with a new wave nearly every month you had to spend way more to keep up.

Much like heroclix, Mechwarrior and other games wizkidz mucked it up by not taking the time for balance and playtesting.

When your scraping the underside of a barrel anything will "look" better...

Untill GW produces one edition with all codices acceptably balanced and non interpretive rules all they've accomplished is a fluke.

Sure, I guess. They still have years of ill-will to overcome, though.

 Gitkikka wrote:
Sure, I guess. They still have years of ill-will to overcome, though.

This. So much this.

GW has impressed me in two respects:

-models. their models are kick-ass and second to none, and they have backed off the precipice of releasing horribly tacky cartoonish models (very big fan of gene cult, mechanicus, and the heresy stuff is good)

-price. So many great deals this year, via the boxed sets.

However, they have one step left to go... rules. Still one of the worst rulesets out there.

bonus points for: new board games (although to my knowledge the rules haven't reached the level of greatness yet), excellent paint guides on warhammer tv and in the codexes, new painting products.

I find GW to be severely lacking.

Sure they created some stuff they assumed would be popular like Genestealer Cults, knights etc. Sure they are returning to social media at a limited capacity, participating at conventions and reaching out a little to customers.

But everything GW does seems to be directed at selling more and not about creating a genuine relationship with their customers.

Yes it is a company and their purpose is to make money, but their business practices are deplorable.

GW as good as some changes may be have still not created a sensible edition of 40k. They still support Age of Sigmar, which is every bit as horrible as the day the released it. They haven't returned to games such as Necromunda, Mordheim and Warmaster. They mention they are getting into some Titanicus (Epic-like) game, but they are changing the scale to make sure all people have to start over with new miniatures.

One of the few good things lately is the return of Blood Bowl. But I still remember how GW gave us Dreadfleet and not a new edition of Man O'War.

And while some boxes and deals and a few prices here and there are dropping to entice more people to get stuck in, they are still charging a fortune for what is essentially plastic models.

For a decade they have done everything to bleed their customers dry and they even bragged about it in their yearly financial reports.

It will take a lot more for me to trust and respect GW as a company again. The only clear path is for them to release more wholesome games with thought-out rules and support them properly.

Remember GW created the foundation for "specialist" games such as Space Hulk, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic and Warmaster. And today they can stretch themselves to do forgetable affairs such as "Gorechosen". Who will speak about that in ten or twenty years?

It is a bit like the Wizard of Oz; once you pull the curtain you see what is really going on. They are engineering their releases to such an extent to get a maximum $, I just can't see the game or the idea behind it at this point or the care for the customer.

Remember you still can't comment on their Youtube videos. 40k is for the diehards and is losing ground. AoS is a smoldering mess. Etc. etc.

I just can't get genuinely excited about GW at the moment.
And I don't agree with their business decisions.

GW had a unique chance in the marketplace to dominate in the gaming arena. Instead they dropped the ball. Lack of Epic opened up for games such as Dropzone Commander. Blood Bowl gave ground to Dreadball and tons of miniature makers with Fantasy Football minis, Warhammer Fantasy gave way to Kings of War, Warhammer Historical gave way to Mantic Historical, Warlord Games and many others, Mordheim gave way to Frostgrave, Necromunda to Deadzone .. etc. etc.

GW could have had a unique position and a great relationship with their customers. Instead the went the short-sighted route of raised prices and min-max all releases for years on years... to the degree their core games suffered. One can question if 40k is a game anymore, or a parade and display of miniatures.

Have a good night!
Draccan

 Draccan wrote:


They still support Age of Sigmar, which is every bit as horrible as the day the released it.

Disagree here. "Fun" rules clearly have been identified as not wanted and are not used anymore with new releases. I wish they would remove them from the legacy rules as well, alas, obviously you can't have everything. Besides they provide now points. So a way better stand than at the beginning.

 Draccan wrote:

Remember GW created the foundation for "specialist" games such as Space Hulk, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic and Warmaster. And today they can stretch themselves to do forgetable affairs such as "Gorechosen". Who will speak about that in ten or twenty years?

It seems to me that you are ignoring that they produced loads of specialist games over the years. Most of them are today not widely recognized (anymore). Let's see for example how the Horus Heresy games are recognized in a few years time... Gorechosen is a small "snack" and not supposed to be at the same intensity as all the games you pointed out above. So it's comparing apples to oranges.

Not happy with GW changing the base size so not sure what to do with my armies, continue building with old base size or mix and match or put ones already done on new base size?

Asterios wrote:
Not happy with GW changing the base size so not sure what to do with my armies, continue building with old base size or mix and match or put ones already done on new base size?

Use base adapters?

SKR.HH wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Not happy with GW changing the base size so not sure what to do with my armies, continue building with old base size or mix and match or put ones already done on new base size?

Use base adapters?

still gonna cost me money.

hobojebus wrote:

 auticus wrote:
And the games that shares engines (Star Trek, and the world war i aces game) aren't really played anywhere en masse.

So its not that the game is just so awesome that all versions of it are being played everywhere.

Its that the one with the star wars license has a huge IP to ride on top of.

Attack wing reused old models from a previous game, they had terrible detail a crap paint job and were not to scale so were not worth the price being asked.

On top of that the balance was non existent due to poor points costs the Borg with 360 movement and shooting as well as the most attack dice were broken for too long.

Then you have the BS with exclusives from events.

Plus with a new wave nearly every month you had to spend way more to keep up.

Much like heroclix, Mechwarrior and other games wizkidz mucked it up by not taking the time for balance and playtesting.

There's still wings of war, though.

The game is fine. Great fun to play, and has enough expansions.... but playing an obscure WWI (or 2) ace is not the same as playing a Han Solo millenium falcon with Lando vs Vader in his TIE and the Emperor riding his shuttle. I only played Wings of War with basically two mates, while as soon as Xwing was released just about everyone jumped in.

I have to credit FFG that the dial works much better than a maneuver deck, though.

@Asterios, Is there a hobby option that doesn't cost you money in some way? I guess you could use cardboard cut-outs for bases...

@Draccan, is being unable to comment on their youtube videos really a bad thing?

Seriously, I'm not sure what it is but the youtube comments seem to have taken a drastic plunge in the intelligence department these days...

Not having comments on is a universally recognized sign of cowardice, They don't really want to hear honest feedback on their products they just want fanboys to kiss their tucas.

Echo chambers are bad look what happened under Kirby he filled the company with yes men and no one spoke up against bad ideas.