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 Yodhrin wrote:
This is an actual, genuine question from someone who is actually wondering how you arrived at your PoV, not an attack, or a snark, or anything else of that nature:

How does a "serious fan" of Star Trek enjoy a show like Discovery(or, alas, it seems, Picard), or a film like Into Darkness? I can understand the perspective of someone who just generally enjoys science fiction who happened to like previous Star Treks and also likes the modern incarnations, but has no particular attachment to that IP. I might have a different opinion on the quality, but there's no logical conflict there. But to be a fan of something is to care about it, to feel a level of attachment to the qualities that make it what it is, and by any measure other than branding I don't see how STD etc shares any qualities with Trek.

It's not fundamentally hopeful and optimistic. It's not thoughtful. It's not inspiring. It's not a vision of a better tomorrow that we can strive for. It doesn't have the same tone or narrative format. Even the aesthetic is similar in only the most superficial ways, despite ostensibly being set in an existing and known time period.

What is in there for a fan of Star Trek, specifically, to enjoy?

What's not to enjoy?

Star Trek is not just one thing, and hasn't been for a very, very long time. Each of the TV series has had a slightly different atmosphere and focus. The earlier movies somewhat mirrored the series' they sprang from, with the Next Gen movies showing a shift towards action over introspection. The books, on the other hand, have been everywhere. They've covered everything from cerebral introspection, to war settings, to literally the imminent destruction of the entire galaxy. I enjoy the original series for its naivety and hope for a better future. I enjoy DS9 for it's grittier, more grounded take on things. And I enjoy Discovery and the Abrams movies for showing a different take on a familiar subject.

It probably helps that I'm a fan of sci fi in general, although Star Wars and Star Trek have always been the solid foundation of that love, for me. It probably (so far as the newer stuff is concerned) helps that I've also always been a fan of 'alternate' takes. I love covers of songs, particularly when they're wildly different to the original. I was a big fan of the 'What if...?' and Elseworlds comic lines. I loved Keaton's Batman and Bale's Batman and even Batfleck just as much as the 60's campy version.

But the biggest thing, I think, is that I have no strong expectations. I don't expect the next Star Trek thing to be exactly the same as the last one. If it is, then that's great - more Star Trek! If it isn't, then that's great too - different Star Trek!

I care more about the characters being relatable and/or entertaining, and the story being interesting than in whether or not it perfectly fits my preconceived notions of what the product should be.

Voss wrote:
Seems foolish. I see a pretty good chance of it bombing hard and then Stewart having to eat those words.

Watching him struggle to work his way through a short youtube ad on refugees makes it hard to believe they can hang one, let alone two, seasons of a show on his head.

Yes of course. Everyone knows SIR Patrick Stewart can't act!

I really hope I misread this comment and am interpreting the context incorrectly.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Insaniak, please forgive me if I am wrong, but didn’t you also enjoy the entire sequel trilogy and the prequels as well as JJ Trek?

Yes, and no. I enjoyed all of those things, although in the case of the prequels that's because I chose to enjoy them as a collection of action scenes strung together with a bare-bones plot.

Are you also a fan of the older Star Trek shows? .

I grew up with the original Star Trek series. For a long time, that was all Star Trek was for me - I actively avoided Next Gen when it started up, because it wasn't 'real' Star Trek. Once I did get around to checking out the other Trek series, I found I liked them all, for different reasons - although enjoyed the Next Gen movies more than most of that series. (and, conversely, didn't enjoy most of the original crew movies as much as the series)

And the Enterprise D is still hands down the ugliest ship in the Star Trek universe.

 insaniak wrote:

And the Enterprise D is still hands down the ugliest ship in the Star Trek universe.

To each his own but that's a relatively uncommon opinion in my experience. It's certainly not my favorite by any stretch either but wow...

 insaniak wrote:


And the Enterprise D is still hands down the ugliest ship in the Star Trek universe.

In a world where there's not exactly a dearth of realllllllly ugly space craft from genre tv and movies, it's certainly in my top 3. Together with the ungainly plucked chicken from the space cowboy show (loved the mechanic, the ship is plain ugly), and the "whatever the feth it was" from "Magnificent 7 in space".

 warboss wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

And the Enterprise D is still hands down the ugliest ship in the Star Trek universe.

To each his own but that's a relatively uncommon opinion in my experience. It's certainly not my favorite by any stretch either but wow...

From talking to people over the years, it generally seems to be more well-liked amongst those who started out with Next Gen, and less so amongst us old-timers. It's not just a resistance to change, though, at least in my case - I was fine with the movie refit of the original Enterprise, although I still love the more elegant lines of the original design. And I mostly love the post Next-Gen ship designs (aside from the Defiant, which I realise is another controversial opinion ) but the D just looks like someone took a regular Star Trek ship and half melted it.


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 chromedog wrote:
Together with the ungainly plucked chicken from the space cowboy show (loved the mechanic, the ship is plain ugly),

Ooh, them's fighting words...




But actually, the Serenity being a bit ugly was part of the backstory. It was supposed to be ugly, but slightly charming in its ungainly way.

 Easy E wrote:

Voss wrote:
Seems foolish. I see a pretty good chance of it bombing hard and then Stewart having to eat those words.

Watching him struggle to work his way through a short youtube ad on refugees makes it hard to believe they can hang one, let alone two, seasons of a show on his head.

Yes of course. Everyone knows SIR Patrick Stewart can't act!

I really hope I misread this comment and am interpreting the context incorrectly.

Completely incorrectly.
In the ad in question, he seems to be tired and worn out reading a few lines while sitting comfortably.

Acting is long hours on a fairly arduous schedule, even when it isn't an action show. I just don't think he's physically up to the demands of multiple seasons of this type of show.

And the show's concept looks rubbish enough that the suits involved seem crazy to be signing a second season before the first even airs, regardless of who is involved or how talented they are.
[Though with the caveat that internet distribution and no live TV lets a lot of junk live on long after studios would have traditionally axed it]

I'm just going to chip in and say, yes, indeed, the Enterprise-D is an ugly, ugly ship.

It's just so... Unbalanced and... ARGH!

The Enterprise-E is a LOT nicer. And probably my favourite Trek ship design.

As for the Picard show, I'm just going to say, I too am disheartened by the idea of cynicising the Federation into a corrupt Government.

I guess I'll throw in my $.02 and agree that the D is, indeed, the ugliest Enterprise and among the most ugly ships in the franchise.

Although the 'JJ Enterprise" comes close. It looks like someone overinflated a balloon...

Wow... I have to say that's the most dislike I've seen the ship get in decades in my decades on the internet.

It took me years to like the Enterprise D, but now I find that the over-engineered, overly-sculpted hotel ship perfectly encapsulates the attitude of Starfleet pre Wolf 359. There is a beauty to the naivety and arrogance of the design, and that makes it the perfect foil for the military sleekness of the Defiant or E. It’s a strutting ship of peace that any other regime would consider a battleship in need of a diet.

The Grissom and Excelsior (outside of ST 6’s flattering camera angles) are the ugliest ships in Starfleet. Yes, including the Sidney.

Now, the Nebula class, on the other hand, is a gorgeous ship.

 LordofHats wrote:

Voss wrote:
Eh? Everything I've seen on Discovery has been that its a laughable joke.
Its just safe and protected behind a paywall where they can obscure numbers and ratings, and not have to worry about advertisers dumping the show like the cold piece of trash it is.

I think it's hard to ignore Discovery's divisive effect in the fandom. That has been fairly standard for new Star Trek series though. TNG had its detractors, and so did DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise and I feel like all those series were more well received and appreciated after their series finales.

Discovery could be the same. There are a lot of people who liked it, and season 1 was pretty good, if flawed. The later half of season 2 though came with a major downtrend though, and I think is hard to defend as anything but garbage unfitting of the Star Trek label. I think season 3 is going to be a hard sell, even for people who haven't already abandoned the show given its apparent premise. I think there was a major breach of faith though among the more hardcore fan base throughout Discovery, so opinion on the internet may be much more negative than the among the wider audience.

IMHO, the biggest detraction for Disco, and now Picard. . . . is that it exists "solely" behind the paywall that is "CBS All Access". At the time Disco launched, they could likely have put the show in CBS proper, on the air, in a saturday night slot or something (obviously, not the MOST coveted spots, but it being Trek, they'd likely have had a "guaranteed" crowd for an OTA show). IMO, a show with as much cultural significance to western audiences as Trek has, that's where it should be, not behind some subscription paywall.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

The Grissom and Excelsior (outside of ST 6’s flattering camera angles) are the ugliest ships in Starfleet. Yes, including the Sidney.

I actually don't mind the Grissom. It's an odd design, but still works while being really different from what we had seen previously at that point. And while the Excelsior class isn't one of my favourites, it's at least a natural progression from the refitted Constitution class styling. I would rate both of these higher than the Discovery, which I dislike almost as much as the Enterprise D.

Now, the Nebula class, on the other hand, is a gorgeous ship.

The Nebula is just what you get when you don't follow the assembly instructions for your Galaxy class ship...

But yes, it does somehow wind up looking better.

 warboss wrote:
Wow... I have to say that's the most dislike I've seen the ship get in decades in my decades on the internet.

Has anyone mentioned the J yet?

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Wow... I have to say that's the most dislike I've seen the ship get in decades in my decades on the internet.

Has anyone mentioned the J yet?

Someone did above iirc. It's an odd duck for sure.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:It took me years to like the Enterprise D, but now I find that the over-engineered, overly-sculpted hotel ship perfectly encapsulates the attitude of Starfleet pre Wolf 359. There is a beauty to the naivety and arrogance of the design, and that makes it the perfect foil for the military sleekness of the Defiant or E. It’s a strutting ship of peace that any other regime would consider a battleship in need of a diet.

The Grissom and Excelsior (outside of ST 6’s flattering camera angles) are the ugliest ships in Starfleet. Yes, including the Sidney.

Now, the Nebula class, on the other hand, is a gorgeous ship.

I rather liked the original Excelsior (less so the 1701B variant) but only from certain angles...basically not a pure side view that accentuated the length. I'm also a fan of the nebula specifically the original circular dish USS Phoenix version.

Compel wrote:I'm just going to chip in and say, yes, indeed, the Enterprise-D is an ugly, ugly ship.

It's just so... Unbalanced and... ARGH!

The Enterprise-E is a LOT nicer. And probably my favourite Trek ship design.

As for the Picard show, I'm just going to say, I too am disheartened by the idea of cynicising the Federation into a corrupt Government.

I love you for this. This is pretty much everything I wanted to say.

Seems to me the main design was there for the separation sequence, so neither part looked entirely daft.

I mean, it worked for the saucer section?

The original (or at least the refit) Enterprise was almost able to separate as well. There was originally a battle scene storyboard for the end of the Motion Picture where they split the saucer to fight some Klingons.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
It took me years to like the Enterprise D, but now I find that the over-engineered, overly-sculpted hotel ship perfectly encapsulates the attitude of Starfleet pre Wolf 359. There is a beauty to the naivety and arrogance of the design, and that makes it the perfect foil for the military sleekness of the Defiant or E. It’s a strutting ship of peace that any other regime would consider a battleship in need of a diet.

Agreed. I always thought of it as elegant even though I prefered the 1701C (and Phoenix variant Nebula) myself. It's the gentlemen's starship built as you said by an overconfident and naive pre-Borg/pre-Dominion War Federation and the design encapsulated that.

 warboss wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
It took me years to like the Enterprise D, but now I find that the over-engineered, overly-sculpted hotel ship perfectly encapsulates the attitude of Starfleet pre Wolf 359. There is a beauty to the naivety and arrogance of the design, and that makes it the perfect foil for the military sleekness of the Defiant or E. It’s a strutting ship of peace that any other regime would consider a battleship in need of a diet.

Agreed. I always thought of it as elegant even though I prefered the 1701C (and Phoenix variant Nebula) myself. It's the gentlemen's starship built as you said by an overconfident and naive pre-Borg/pre-Dominion War Federation and the design encapsulated that.

Its a very very large civilian exploration ship with some guns on it. Its the Queen Mary with a gun turret. When built their primary opposition was...the Ferengi? Klingons were allies, Romulans abided by their border as did the Tholians, Cardassians were a minor regional power and not technologically advanced. Absent the Borg, at the time of TNG there were no major threats.

The Constitution and Excelsior classes were battleships that also explored. The Klingons were an existential threat.

Frankly in this new time period they should be closer to TNG. Looks like the Romulans have been impacted. Cardassians are out of it. Just the Klingons and the Breen.

Premiere held in London. Guessing first impressions to follow soon?

Also, one week to go for us mere plebs.

 insaniak wrote:
Star Trek is not just one thing, and hasn't been for a very, very long time.

"You hit me! Picard never hit me!"

Personally, one of my favorite designs was Voyager. Sure, the series itself had some problems, but the ship was sleek.


As for what the Federation sees as a threat around the time of Picard? Well, after the Dominion War every Alfa/Beta quadrant race was impacted. The Klingons were a shadow of their former self, as were the Romulans (and then got the nut-punch of losing their home world). The Cardasians were all ready in a tight spot before the war being resource deprived, and basically reduced to Afghanistan levels of relevancy after the war. The Breen were a little beaten back, and lost some territory. The Federation was hurt, but in a decent situation to rebuild, and in fact make the Romulans, Cardassians, and to a lesser extent the Klingons dependent on them for rebuilding and supplying them. This likely exported Federation culture to all groups. The Ferengi aren't really a threat, and with their new Negus are likely very pro-Federation.

This basically leaves the Borg, the Dominion, and any random bad guys. With Voyager returning with future-tech the Borg seem like a lesser threat.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Personally, one of my favorite designs was Voyager. Sure, the series itself had some problems, but the ship was sleek.

I'll also give bonus points for the Equinox. The Nova class was a sexy little science ship.

 LordofHats wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Personally, one of my favorite designs was Voyager. Sure, the series itself had some problems, but the ship was sleek.

I'll also give bonus points for the Equinox. The Nova class was a sexy little science ship.

Agreed. I prefer the slightly different styling of the related Rhode Island variant (the one Harry Kim commands in the finale) and even converted some fan deckplans for an rpg I hoped to run on it.

Some very excellent food for thought on the ship designs.

Spesh if we consider Picard’s initial reservations about the ship housing families.

 warboss wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Personally, one of my favorite designs was Voyager. Sure, the series itself had some problems, but the ship was sleek.

I'll also give bonus points for the Equinox. The Nova class was a sexy little science ship.

Agreed. I prefer the slightly different styling of the related Rhode Island variant (the one Harry Kim commands in the finale) and even converted some fan deckplans for an rpg I hoped to run on it.

Do you consider the RI to be a variant f the same class as the Equinox, or the much larger ship the redress is apparently supposed to be?


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 LordofHats wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Personally, one of my favorite designs was Voyager. Sure, the series itself had some problems, but the ship was sleek.

I'll also give bonus points for the Equinox. The Nova class was a sexy little science ship.

Those two ships were from that period when the design team knew exactly what they were doing. All the details are there, and they line up with their stated functions and the deck plans of the interior of the ship. I really like the advanced ship=smaller nacelles trope they carried over from the D and C. They look like real progressions from previous designs, built to a purpose. The E is just a little too over the top in comparison, and the Akira looks cool but struggles to make sense. If the Prometheus didn’t have that stupid multi-vector mode, it would fit right in with the Intrepid and Nova classes.

Non-spoiler Picard premiere review by (the actor who played) Jake Sisko and friends. Listening to it right now and just passed the 15 minute mark where they said 90's trek is dead and this is not a continuation of it as it's more akin to STD. They're largely ok with that. YMMV.

Soooo Commader Riker is back for the ride also. No doubt we have not see the last of his classic maneuver...

Dunno. Given his age, may need to be a lower backed one?