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From the thread 'Why so many GK players?'

sudojoe wrote:

When you look at the Codex Astartes, you'll see that a single active Company has 4 Dreadnoughts at most. Assuming that the Grey Knights have even half that, they would need to commit the resources of 200 Marines to bring 3 or 4 Dreadnoughts. You can field a full Space Marine company (100+ Marines) and 4 Dreadnoughts for 2500 points. The Grey Knights, on the other hand, would need twice as many points to equal that. You're looking at a 4-5000 point army to realistically have 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts.

So yes, an army consisting of 20 Purifiers and 3 Dreadnoughts is unfluffy.

but then again I can always claim that my army was from the 1st generation of GK when they still had alot of legion influence and had yet to develop this dislike for dreads. In fact, they still wanted to be dreads since it was honored from the legions where they came from but GK have plenty of money to buy all those injured brothers big dreadnaught bodies.

"Hey techpriest, all those dread chassies going to Ultramar?"

"Yes, Inquisitor Lord"

"Well they aren't anymore. Here, sign this or I'll have this storm trooper kill you. Good."

"So where are these now going my lord?"

"Titan. Opps, I said too much." *snaps fingers* *blam blam blam* *blam* "Well at least his signature is still legible"

Just grabbed that quote because:

I never understood GK fluff saying they hated to be dreadnoughts because they preferred the idea of resting with their brothers in Titan's crypts.

In essence, that's a Space Marine saying he'd like to eschew life and fighting the Emperor's enemies to dying and lying peacefully. Rather 'selfish' for a Space Marine, isn't it? I thought they, let alone the GKs (the best of the best) would literally JUMP at the opportunity to continue fighting the Emprah's foes?

So, what I am asking is, is there a rationale that I am missing here? Or was it just a stupid piece of fluff?

Never heard of that, although I could imagine the GK don't like the idea of binding anyone's soul to anything. It's too chaos-y for them, I think.

Bailing out? Hah! They are the only imperial troop you can rely on turning against you.
But they will honor our agreement as long as we provide them with enemies to satiate their blood lust.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights_Dreadnought#.Ty6UCVx7oWk

Up at the top, they 'yearn to rest in Titan'... That's apparently why Dreadnoughts are rare amongst the GKs. I'd have thought they'd be eager to return to the fight. But apparently they have some whiney sense of entitlement after fighting and dying for the Imperium that other SMs don't have Duty? What is duty? Pah!

It's to do with their belief that if they are properly interred in the crypts below Titan they will be reborn to fight alongside the Emperor when he returns. I agree it's strange and doesn't make too much sense, but that is the reason I have come to understand.

They have given all they could give in a life filled with unimaginable horros and it is only just to let them rest in peace when their strenght finaly fades.

Safor wrote:Bailing out? Hah! They are the only imperial troop you can rely on turning against you.
But they will honor our agreement as long as we provide them with enemies to satiate their blood lust.

Or allies..,. just sayin *Cough SOB cough*

It harks all the way back to 2nd edition and the Dark Millenium addtional rules superment. The are the most expensive troops the IoM has, none other can with stand the evil they face, not even the Iqusition. It was also hinted (some where But for the life of me I can't remember where,) that the Emperor him self said that once they had done their tour of dute they ernd the rite to rest in the cool darkness of their home.


*Taken from my Dark Millenium.

KingDeath wrote:They have given all they could give in a life filled with unimaginable horros and it is only just to let them rest in peace when their strenght finaly fades.

But but but, giant stompy death robot! Who wouldn't want that?

From all the fluff it also appears that when you get dreadnoughtified you get to act like an irascable elderly relative saying whatever you like and generally being a paint in the bum and the n00bs can't touch you.

"yes, venerable brother, they should get out of your emprah damned roses."

Flinty wrote:

KingDeath wrote:They have given all they could give in a life filled with unimaginable horros and it is only just to let them rest in peace when their strenght finaly fades.

But but but, giant stompy death robot! Who wouldn't want that?

From all the fluff it also appears that when you get dreadnoughtified you get to act like an irascable elderly relative saying whatever you like and generally being a paint in the bum and the n00bs can't touch you.

"yes, venerable brother, they should get out of your emprah damned roses."

"Emperor damned Scouts! Why can't those little rapscallions stay out of my property! I am trying to have a nap, and they keep going by, singing those damned hymns too loudly!"

I think it's a different thing to say that a Grey Knight doesn't want to be a dreadnought vs a Grey Knight wants to be interred in Titan once they die.

You don't go on to be a dreadnought if you die... You just have to have such serious wounds that your body can't be put back into any type of combat ready condition.. but you still live on.

The Grey Knights are normally placed in such extremely dangerous positions that there are just two potential outcomes: they live and come back ready to go again, or they die in a horrible and gruesome way. Coming back while being so wounded as to warrant dreadnought armor is going to be rare.

CrashCanuck wrote:It's to do with their belief that if they are properly interred in the crypts below Titan they will be reborn to fight alongside the Emperor when he returns. I agree it's strange and doesn't make too much sense, but that is the reason I have come to understand.

^^ This is your answer and is stated several times in GK sources.

"Unlike other Chapters, however, Grey Knights do not look upon this extension of their life as an honour - all Grey Knights desire to be brought to the crypts underneath the Temple of the Emperor on Titan and laid to rest with their brothers over continuing life inside a machine."

-Lexicanum

I also recall hearing that those interred in dreadnaughts do not get their name written down to be remembered and so they will simply be forgotten.

Up at the top, they 'yearn to rest in Titan'... That's apparently why Dreadnoughts are rare amongst the GKs. I'd have thought they'd be eager to return to the fight. But apparently they have some whiney sense of entitlement after fighting and dying for the Imperium that other SMs don't have Duty? What is duty? Pah!

Ah, you mean like the traitor chaos marines? Whining about being closed inside a dreadnought all day long etc.
lol

Surtur wrote:

I also recall hearing that those interred in dreadnaughts do not get their name written down to be remembered and so they will simply be forgotten.

Wouldnt it just be written down once they bite it as a dread?

Pyriel- wrote:

Up at the top, they 'yearn to rest in Titan'... That's apparently why Dreadnoughts are rare amongst the GKs. I'd have thought they'd be eager to return to the fight. But apparently they have some whiney sense of entitlement after fighting and dying for the Imperium that other SMs don't have Duty? What is duty? Pah!

Ah, you mean like the traitor chaos marines? Whining about being closed inside a dreadnought all day long etc.
lol

Well that's more to do with the fact that they also get tortured into insanity as part of (or because of) becoming a Dreadnought. It's an eternal reminder of their failure to achieve daemonhood.

There's two reasons as I understand it, and they both have to do with the fact that the pilot of a Dreadnought isn't actually dead.

First, the GK believe that once they die they'll go to Imperial Heaven and get to spend eternity kicking ass at the side of the Emperor. That's both really awesome, making them want to die, and involves beating up the enemies of mankind, so they don't feel guilty about all the enemies still un-beaten back in the mortal world. But if they're Dreadnought-ified, they're going to spend thousands of years longer being alive, which is both less awesome and deprives the Emperor of their help in the afterlife.

Second, GK who die get their names written down and are remembered forever as heroes. GK who are interred in Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, aren't dead. . . and they clearly aren't really heroes either since, well, they screwed up badly enough to need to become a Dreadnought. Whatever the rational is, Dreadnought pilots don't get that record, and their brothers won't remember them thousands of years later; it'll be like they never existed.

Furthermore, it's given that other chapters (not just the GK) give their greatest heroes this choice when they're near death, so really it's not that uncommon. Not every battle-brother becomes a dreadnought, you know, even out of the ones who get offered it.

The concept of Grey Knights forgoing interment comes from the Dreadnought blurb on pg.32 of the old Daemonhunters codex. During this era, it was often noted how all Grey Knights wish for their bodies to brought back to Titan when they are no longer able for battle duty. It seems to have little relevance in the new codex though as the Dreadnought's entry talks more about the usual types of respect they command - similar to how other chapters treat them, and doesn't mention how rare they are like the 3E codex did.

I'm quite confident it doesn't actually say this anywhere.

How do you mean? It doesn't come anywhere from in the old codex, or in the new codex?

The quote from the old codex reads as:

Codex: Daemonhunters, pg. 32 wrote:It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his services - they hope to rest in the cool dark of Titan for all eternity. However, a few are sorely wounded enough that to continue of the Emperor's path as a man is impossible and they accept the necessity of pursuing it as a man-machine instead.

Greyish wrote:How do you mean? It doesn't this anywhere in the old codex, or the new codex?

I don't have the old daemonhunters codex, but I'm pretty sure the blurb in question only states that it is rare for a Grey Knight to be interred in a Dreadnought, not that they actually wuss out and opt to die instead.

It certainly doesn't say anything like that in the new codex.

The quote's above. I'm just stating where the notion comes from, not my personal verdict on it. Read into what you will.

Greyish wrote:The quote's above. I'm just stating where the notion comes from, not my personal verdict on it. Read into what you will.

Sorry, you must have ninja'd me.

Yeah, that quote doesn't say anything about them wussing out and choosing to die instead of becoming a dreadnought. In fact it actually says the opposite, those few who are injured sufficiently are interred in a dreadnought.

Because they can never hope to be as awesome as their successors, the Exorcists.

Kaldor wrote:Yeah, that quote doesn't say anything about them wussing out and choosing to die instead of becoming a dreadnought. In fact it actually says the opposite, those few who are injured sufficiently are interred in a dreadnought.

What part of "It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his services" does not make sense to you?

I think this whole argument stems from the old edition of GK vs the new codex where history has been redefined again per the unknowable will of GW.

New codex doesn't mention anything about them not wanting to be deads but the old codex did. People remember things the first time they hear it so assumed that it carried on as part of the existing history where as in the game universe, the past versions no longer existed. It's like we've been given a new version of the old universe.

Lol I'm surprised that I got quoted out of that giant 6 pages of endless bickering. Didn't think people even read what I wrote

I concur with the rationalization that Grey Knights die 99% of the time in battle. They are rarely wounded to the point of being out of commission, which would warrant a dreadnought. If they get that wounded, they are usually dead.

Especially since the list of things that can maim a Grey Knight pretty much is limited to Lords of Change, Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, and other large Daemonic creatures. Rarely will a Grey Knight fall to anything less than total obliteration.

ph34r wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Yeah, that quote doesn't say anything about them wussing out and choosing to die instead of becoming a dreadnought. In fact it actually says the opposite, those few who are injured sufficiently are interred in a dreadnought.

What part of "It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his services" does not make sense to you?

See, you read that and assume that it means that it is MORE rare than it would be for a regular Marine.

The text doesn't say that.

Further, you assume that the text means that a Grey Knight would rather die than be interred as a Dreadnought.

The text doesn't say that either.

All it says is that being interred as a Dreadnought is rare. Well, no crap.

It says they hope to rest in the fields of the dead on Titan. Sure, who wouldn't want to be buried with their honoured ancestors? It DOESN'T say they would prefer that to being interred as a Dreadnought.

It says those who are sufficiently wounded 'see the necessity of pursuing the Emperors path' as a Dreadnought. It says nothing about them opting out of Dreadnought duty.

Nothing about them hating Dreadnought duty or choosing not to follow it is implied.

As I said before, it's all down to personal interpretation. Obviously Kaldor you've interpreted it in a sense that sees them similar to other chapters. Others have (mis?)interpreted this small and somewhat vague blurb into something entirely different - assumptions and all. Feel free to go on a personal crusade to 'correct them' if you like. I'm just happy that 5E standards has meant we have got a lot more unit biography information these days...