Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I played my first few games on Saturday with the new rules using my 9th edition Emperor's Children army. I chose the Renegade Raiders detachment as it fit well from my 9th edition army.

Really enjoyed it but wanted a bit more utility out of my Terminators. I ran 2x5 and, luckily, all the models I built/painted was still WYSIWYG. They operated pretty well due to the Assault keyword.

After reviewing your thoughts on running 10, it is definitely happening. That is how I ran them in 9th. Looks like I can do it again in 10 with no real issues. I'd missed the Sorcerer rules. It seems to fit the Renegade Raiders detachment perfectly.

So here's a rundown of the list:

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour* (Slaanesh) - I run him solo. I used to have a winged Daemons Prince in this spot, but I think the points are too much for that. The DP can also struggle against armour. So I give this guy a Chainfist, a Combi-bolter and look to Ingress him into the enemy DZ and threaten backfield tanks and objectives. His shooting and melee can cause battle shock and I can reroll his charge, or an armour save, or go-to-ground for free (Lord ability). He actually pairs well with the Terminator brick because, in order to deal with him efficiently, a lot of the same weapon systems have to be leveraged against him and are less effective against him; thus are not shot into the brick. He also can't really be ignored.

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour (Nurgle) - Great unit. Goes with the Terminators. His own shooting is decent and contributes to the nightmare Terminator Overwatch. He can use Hex on your turn and then benefit, both, in the following Shooting phase and the Overwatch phase and in both your and the enemies Fight phases. Its such a good ability. Sometimes, I like to advance the unit, just to be in a better position to use it, for the following Overwatch and Fight phases (I did this a lot against the Tau and Aeldari). The Familiar is just icing on the cake: I used to it to survive an Yncarne's Precision, in one game.

Master of Executions (Slaanesh) - Goes with a Legionnaire unit in the Rhino. Paired with the reroll wounds, he can blend almost anything. Use Grenades on a unit, benefit from both reroll hits and wounds and rinse and repeat. Excellent unit.

Obliterators (Tzeentch)(x2) - A bit of a dud, but I like how CSM have multiple units that can do their thing (Oblits, Warp Talons and Nurgle Pactbound) and then can't really be interacted with, in key turns (2 and 3). With Tzeentch they can crack armour, Warprift and be hidden for a turn, then pop out and shoot and charge something on an objective. Pair very well with a Helbrute, where their lack of shooting reliability is somewhat counteracted and they get better target utility.

Helbrute (Nurgle) - I rely on the Helbrute to do several things (sometimes simultaneously). 1) make the shooting and melee of the Terminator unit much better, 2) increase the efficiency of the shooting units (Predators, Havocs, Venomcrawler and Oblits) and 3) boost the melee potential of the AC, Terminators, Legionnaires, itself and Warp Talons where they start to feasibly threaten armored targets, as well as their usual fare. Armed with a Fist, Lascannon and a Flamer. Can be kept alive with the Nurgle strat and then get better position. If something else needs it, then just hide the Helbrute behind a wall. Also, very cheap now.

Chaos Terminators (Nurgle)(x10) - Excellent unit. I use its Overwatch and counter charge potential to protect the scoring units and to dominate the midfield objectives as a reactive threat, which may seem counterintuitive, but is actually its true power in my opinion. Armed with Combi-bolters and Reaper Autocannons and paired with the Helbrute and a strategic use of Hex, this combo has the best overall target utility: its dangerous against 2+, high toughness, elite infantry, chaff, everything really. Obviously very good in melee and shooting. Them being Nurgle means the opponent has to get close, for fear of you popping the strat, which makes them then vulnerable to being charged and specifically, the unit's own Overwatch. It also means the other units that want to score or charge the enemy have a better chance.

Legionnaires (Slaanesh)(x5) - Probably one of the best units in the game. Go with the MoE in a Rhino. Reaper Chaincannon and Heavy Melee weapons. While they are in the Rhino, their shooting is a palpable threat to cheap scoring, as well as the Rhino's own weapons. These have replaced Chosen for me. I always keep a command point to let them advance and charge and act as a delivery mechanism for the MoE.

Legionnaires (Slaanesh)(x5) - Ditto. These will sit in the Rhino until they get their own shot at a unit on an objective.

Chaos Rhino (Slaanesh) - Boost the mobility of and protect the Legionnaires. Its own weapons are nothing to sniff at: Havoc Launchers, Combi-bolters etc. It can go off and score or do actions, when its job is done.

Accursed Cultists (Nurgle)(x8) - I like these much more with the changes. To me they are cheaper, more efficient Berserkers that can Scout (!). The potential for them to surge at the wrong time is so high: either and/or tagging a unit that hasn't shot, tagging a unit so they can't be shot, or getting onto an objective, makes them so useful. Paired with Terminators to protect them with Overwatch and increase the chance of a meaningful surge move onto an objective, or into a unit that shot them. I would consider changing the Mark to Undivided, Slaanesh or Khorne, as I actually want the opponent to be able to shoot them and having more melee threat can benefit them.

Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10) - Still great scoring unit that makes objectives sticky and are dirt cheap.

Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3) - With the points drop they are highly competitive. Amazing shooting with plasma and Nurgle in Pactbound. I was sad they lost the redeploy, but now Warp Talons can do this (and more). A cheap, fast, excellent scoring unit, capable of bullying other weaker scoring units.

Venomcrawler (Nurgle) - Very cheap, fast and great utility. Paired with Helbrute becomes a serious shooting and melee threat.

Warp Talons (Slaanesh)(x5) - As others have already said, a unit that can win games. Putting them on the table Turn 1, means that cheap scoring units will avoid the objectives for fear of giving them an easy kill and going back in reserve. I can see the ability being changed to once per battle, to make it more like the Obliterators' Warprift. While they are obviously strong on their own terms, they also give CSM a unit that can threaten primary, which they really need.

Havocs (Nurgle)(x5) - I give these Lascannons. Their ignore to hit penalties makes them useful against armies that can leverage modifiers. An alternative to Predators, which I prefer, but can be hidden more easily in a Ruin and then jump out. Pair with Helbrute.

Chaos Predator Annihilator (Nurgle) - Again cheap. I like the speed of the unit, hide it and then use the mobility to get angles. Some people prefer the Autocannons, but I have enough anti-infantry already in the list. Pair with the Helbrute.

Forgefiend (Undivided) - Cheaper and still has the ability to delete elite infantry. I like to reserve it, so I can bring on and get the best angles.


Allies

Nurglings (x3) - 40 points for guaranteed objectives. Great.

Final observation, the list really needs command points. I always want to Rapid Ingress (Terminator Lord, Warp Talons) and Overwatch (Terminators) and there is a queue for the Slaanesh advance and charge strat (Terminator Lord, Warp Talons and Legionnaires). So, I may find myself discarding Secondaries more than I would like to.


* Intoxicating Elixir

Thanks for the rundown. I'm running a different detachment but is interesting to see how the same unit may provide different utility.

I'll need to get a few games in using the Sorcerer with Terminators. Hex looks good on paper but getting within 12" and LOS in my shooting phase has me curious if they will also be in range to charge, which is where I'd also want them. Hex and enemy unit on an Objective (Renegade Raiders) will put their close combat weapons at AP4.

Advance and Charge (+1 to roll and getting a reroll) with the brick of Terminators is what I'm wanting out of them; contest midboard.

That looks like an interesting list, but I am not going to play pact bound for a long time as I want to use the other detachments as pact bound was essentially the index which I have played to death. My first list will be as follows:

Veteran's of the Long War

So the internet is not super keen on this detachment, but I think it could be as good as the Pact Bound or the Renegade Raiders, and if not as good, pretty darn close. The Focus of Hated (FoH) ability pair so well with the dark pact to allow you to fish for 6's against the target unit. I think CSM are going to get more out of this then normal SM, and quite frankly, a lot of the snow flake chapters have been doing well, relying on Oath to put down the most dangerous enemy unit. All of the strats are very usable in my opinion, with the 2CP one to pick a new FoH being probably the least stand out due to it being expensive, and needing a character to be close to the new target. But -1 ap is great and a battle tactic. The advance/fall back and shoot his helpful, but the [Devastating Wounds] part of this I think is really good, ignore cover is always useful, especially with the Sorcerer increasing AP with his ability. Reactive moves are ALWAYS good. Finally the fight first strat has a lot of potential, usually you can see when a unit is gearing up for a charge, so if you pick it as the FoH you get can get the fight first, and really disrupt the enemy's game plan. I think there is a lot to work with using this detachment and I can't wait to play it.

Units

10 man possessed with master of possession (with Eager for Vengeance) - So even with the nerf I still think Possessed are pretty good. Yes they are not as tank-y without the 6+++ but they are cheaper which allowed me to add some other things to the list. The big change here is the new enhancement. Having fall back and charge natively on these guys will be super helpful as in many games I charge, kill whatever, then they get counter charged. They are not great against heavy armor high T units, like monsters or vehicles, so being able to fall back from say a dreadnough or Carnifex and then charge something that they can kill I think will be money. I mean chosen are definitely better for this role, but I just got new Possessed and only played with them once, so they will be in most lists lol.

2 x 5 man warptalons - They do their thing and harass the flanks and use the new ability to zip away. They will also have full re-roll hits and wounds against the FoH target which could allow them to really hit things hard. I am just so bummed that Lord with JP can't join them, that would have been a killer unit.

2 x Vindicators - for killing big stuff or large squads. Again the FoH I think for these will be really good.

2 x obliterators - deep strike in and hit the big stuff or large squads. I still think they are good even with the nerf.

5 x legionary squad - This squad will be my hold the back line squad. Armed with plasma they should be pretty good at fending off any deepstrike distraction units.

5 x legionary squad w/ Chaos Lord (with Warmaster's gift)- So I am really looking forward to using this. The lord dropping [Devastating Wounds] on a 5+ with re-roll wounds against units on objectives (due to legionaries) seems really good. Especially against the FoH target where I can fish for [Sustained Hits] to really amp this up. Then pop his super saiyan mode for D3 and I think he can take down a lot of units in the game himself.

Rhino - Obviously just a transport for the Chaos Lord's squad to get them in battle quickly.

2 x venomcrawlers - I just like these guys, they are pretty cheap for what they do and throw out a bunch of shots. With FoH re-rolls they should be able to put some damage into the FoH.

5 man terminators lead by a Sorcerer - This unit will deepstrike in and distract a flank or the backfield. They are a good candidate for the [Devastating Wounds] strat, and with the Sorcerer can re-roll the charge from deepstrike making it more reliable.

5 man raptor squad - These guys are my secondary monkeys and distraction unit. I could probably find something else, but these guys are cheap, so unless it is more legionaries, I don't know what I can replace them.

After this I am going to go to try out some different builds for Renegade Raiders. I am really looking forward to using terminators and Obliterators in the RR list, as the assault rule allowing the advance and shoot really mitigates their slow movement, so you can comfortably start them on the board and get that first round of shooting in.

So I am aiming for some Renegade Raiders tonight. Here's where I am going:

Abaddon
Chaos Lord x 2 (one with Dread Reaver)

2x Cultists Mobs

2x Legionaries (2 heavy CCW and the rest pistol and CCW, PP on champ)

Chosen x10 (2 fists, 2 combis, 2 PP)

Warp Talons x5

Predator Destructor (Main autocannon, 2 lascannons, Havoc Launcher, Combi)

Forgefiend (3 ectos)

Land Raider

Rhino

5 Rubrics with Flamers
5 Rubrics with Flamers
Nurglings


So my thoughts are get Abbaddon and Chosen in the LR. The two Chaos Lord and their Legionaries in the rhino.

The rubrics will benefit well from the detachment rule (they get the HA keyword so should benefit from it) and Dark Pacts don't really do much for them anyway but getting to re-roll to wound, with asault flamers at potentially -3 ap when something is on an objective.... couldn't resist it. I think if not them, then i'd likely try out two units of three bikes but we'll see how they perform!

I am also trying the land raider. I am still not sold on it and in a different world, would potentially swap it out for another rhino and some terminators, possessed or obliterators.

Abaddon is still a bit spenny and his place in the list isn't guaranteed yet but the punch and buffs he brings are very useful.

Semper wrote:
So I am aiming for some Renegade Raiders tonight. Here's where I am going:

Abaddon
Chaos Lord x 2 (one with Dread Reaver)

2x Cultists Mobs

2x Legionaries (2 heavy CCW and the rest pistol and CCW, PP on champ)

Chosen x10 (2 fists, 2 combis, 2 PP)

Warp Talons x5

Predator Destructor (Main autocannon, 2 lascannons, Havoc Launcher, Combi)

Forgefiend (3 ectos)

Land Raider

Rhino

5 Rubrics with Flamers
5 Rubrics with Flamers
Nurglings


So my thoughts are get Abbaddon and Chosen in the LR. The two Chaos Lord and their Legionaries in the rhino.

The rubrics will benefit well from the detachment rule (they get the HA keyword so should benefit from it) and Dark Pacts don't really do much for them anyway but getting to re-roll to wound, with asault flamers at potentially -3 ap when something is on an objective.... couldn't resist it. I think if not them, then i'd likely try out two units of three bikes but we'll see how they perform!

I am also trying the land raider. I am still not sold on it and in a different world, would potentially swap it out for another rhino and some terminators, possessed or obliterators.

Abaddon is still a bit spenny and his place in the list isn't guaranteed yet but the punch and buffs he brings are very useful.

I like it. Yea I think Rubrics with flamers will be a staple in most Renegade lists. The advance and shoot makes them so fast and dangerous getting into position not just to shoot your turn, but in a place to let them overwatch the next.

Also, quick pet peeve, why are the data sheets not in alphabetical order in the codex? I mean even they broke it down to characters, battle line, other (like the app) but they still should have put them in alphabetical order in those categories as now it feels a bit scatter gun

You Tempting Addendum your Shooting Castle while the warpsmith gives the Lord of Skulls 6+++ and He Rolls trough the building in the middle with Unstoppable Rampage for 1 cp and then Shot and Charge with Battleshock for 1 cp kill till he gets killed. Hoping he is a worthy distraction, that they try to Focus him down, which is mostly the wrong way, because of sunken cost fallacy, because of 6+++. Rhinos are His meat shields that Block everything coming at him and then you make them demons for the lulz.

Please put that list in a spoiler.

Hi all,

I've played a few more games with the Pactbound list.

I've made changes. Namely, I had to get rid of the Venomcrawler as I was over 2K by 100 points .

I also changed the Marks.

Terminators are now Tzeentch. With the Helbrute, their shooting output is the same. While the ability to deny shooting is useful, I've found that I tend to hide the Terminators anyway Turn 1 against armies that can threaten them and have them jump out with the rest of the army, for one big push. Nurgle is better for positioning and protecting more vulnerable units, like vehicles or Cultists, which want to stay back. The Tzeentch mark helps them with survivability and also effectively gives them 4" extra movement, with the reroll charge they can actually get into the enemy DZ early game. When the opponent knows this, it also makes them less likely to want to shoot them. Paired with the AC, they can create problems: the enemy has to pick up the AC in one go, or risk them tagging stuff. In order to pick them up, larger weapons have to be diverted from the Terminators. No-one really wants to waste shots on the AC. The Terminators Overwatch can, similarly, protect the AC and itself. When the Terminator Lord comes down, Oblits etc., target saturation becomes an issue. My mate plays WE and I saw him using surge moves expertly and to similar effect, but that is an army that doesn't shoot well, doesn't have untargetable units, I would argue is a bit flimsy when it needs to make its pushes and also pays heavily in points. I make the AC unit Slaanesh, to increase the damage potential and mobility of the unit.

There are some games where you might want to deploy the Terminators on the line, to threaten Overwatch against cheap objective scorers, I've found myself doing this against Aeldari a lot. A neat trick with is to take the Tzeentch relic, pact on Overwatch on Turn 1 and then (33% of the time) get a CP back for another strat. Most (if not all) CP generating abilities happen in your command phase so this can be useful.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:
The Tzeentch mark helps them with survivability and also effectively gives them 4" extra movement, with the reroll charge they can actually get into the enemy DZ early game. When the opponent knows this, it also makes them less likely to want to shoot them.

Just to clarify: when you resurrect a model it adds movement to the unit, so opponent has to think about this before shooting.

Also, I wanted to do a writeup on the Elixir Terminator Lord because its a unit that doesn't seem strong, but has in fact had a massive impact on the games I've played.

1) If you are playing Take and Hold and are going second, he can potentially battle-shock two units (melee and shooting) at the top of Turn 5 and swing primary for you.

2) As secondaries are scored end of turn, he can also score/deny for you in your turn, through the same battle-shock mechanic (Extend, Secure NML, Storm, Tempting Target, Cleanse, Capture Enemy Outpost (!)). I've done this a few times.

3) An enemy won't want to stay in combat with him on their turn, for risk of him denying their own secondaries, you can rely on them either falling back from him in their turn or in their assault phase trying to kill him before he swings, which is actually pretty useful if you've got multiple things in combat, or sitting on an objective.

4) He is a small infantry model that you can Ingress, meaning he can always be close to objectives.

He has very low damage potential, but is potentially more disruptive than a DP in the same spot.

Best,
Samii.

I like Tzeentch on terminators in the pact bound. My last couple of lists for Slaves to Darkness used a unit like that and the [Lethal Hits] on 5+ make massed small arms fire pretty effective except for 2+ saves (RIP ranged cultists). The Sorcerer can throw out the -1 ap though which makes them good against basically everything, and the ability to bring back a terminator is pretty clutch, as most of the time opponents can't really kill a bunch of them at a time. Also with Oblits being only 2 model units, there is no reason to run them Tzeentch, so the terminators won't be competing for that strat.

I haven't gotten to play yet due to my schedule, but I can't wait to use this codex

 xeen wrote:
I like Tzeentch on terminators in the pact bound. My last couple of lists for Slaves to Darkness used a unit like that and the [Lethal Hits] on 5+ make massed small arms fire pretty effective except for 2+ saves (RIP ranged cultists). The Sorcerer can throw out the -1 ap though which makes them good against basically everything, and the ability to bring back a terminator is pretty clutch, as most of the time opponents can't really kill a bunch of them at a time. Also with Oblits being only 2 model units, there is no reason to run them Tzeentch, so the terminators won't be competing for that strat.

I haven't gotten to play yet due to my schedule, but I can't wait to use this codex

1. Don't forget plunging fire: half the ruins I play with (and most 40K terrain setups) has a second floor with windows.

2. There is more value in resurrecting an Oblit in a two man unit, than a Terminator in a bigger unit: it also can give the Oblits more reach (remember the extra move potential), which they need.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I like Tzeentch on terminators in the pact bound. My last couple of lists for Slaves to Darkness used a unit like that and the [Lethal Hits] on 5+ make massed small arms fire pretty effective except for 2+ saves (RIP ranged cultists). The Sorcerer can throw out the -1 ap though which makes them good against basically everything, and the ability to bring back a terminator is pretty clutch, as most of the time opponents can't really kill a bunch of them at a time. Also with Oblits being only 2 model units, there is no reason to run them Tzeentch, so the terminators won't be competing for that strat.

I haven't gotten to play yet due to my schedule, but I can't wait to use this codex

1. Don't forget plunging fire: half the ruins I play with (and most 40K terrain setups) has a second floor with windows.

2. There is more value in resurrecting an Oblit in a two man unit, than a Terminator in a bigger unit: it also can give the Oblits more reach (remember the extra move potential), which they need.

Best,
Samii.

Yea I always forget about the plunging fire rule!

No what I mean is while resurrecting one oblit is better than one terminator, being limited to 2 oblits means that if you want to have that ability, you are losing nurgle (which [Sustained Hits] is of more value to oblits than [Lethal Hits]) on the hope that if the opponent kills one oblit, they don't kill the other one thus preventing the resurrecting of an oblit, which is my experience is usually what happens (i.e. they kill both). So there is more value to me with terminators using the resurrection frankly because they will likely be able to actually use it.

5 Terminators in Renegade Raiders detachment.
What weapon options would you advocate?

1. Chainfist + combi bolter
2. Power Fist + combi bolter
3. Power Fist + combi bolter
4. Power Fist + combi bolter
5. Accursed Weapon + Heavy Flamer

Chainfist seems obligatory in case when fighting a vehicle (can re-roll 4+ hits with Dark Pact). Power Fists for enemy elite infantry. Heavy Flamer over Reaper Cannon to overwatch any chaff units bloking moves/charges.

 Xyxel wrote:
5 Terminators in Renegade Raiders detachment.
What weapon options would you advocate?

1. Chainfist + combi bolter
2. Power Fist + combi bolter
3. Power Fist + combi bolter
4. Power Fist + combi bolter
5. Accursed Weapon + Heavy Flamer

Chainfist seems obligatory in case when fighting a vehicle (can re-roll 4+ hits with Dark Pact). Power Fists for enemy elite infantry. Heavy Flamer over Reaper Cannon to overwatch any chaff units bloking moves/charges.

The combi-weapons are probably the better choice, with advance and shoot you can get them into rapid fire range pretty reliably mid-game. However, there is something to be said for the combi-bolters in raiders, as the -1 ap will really help them clear out hoard type units off objectives (-2 if you bring a sorcerer). I think it depends on what else is in your list. For an all comers list you want some hoard clearance, but probably mostly anti-elite stuff as you are likely to face those armies more in the current meta I believe. So if you have like chosen, or oblits or other things that you feel could deal with like 100 nid bugs, or ork boys if you end up facing that then combi-weapons might be better, but your squad seems geared to clearing light infantry, and if that is their role, then this looks good.

Powerfists are good, but if the units primary role is to attack back field or light infantry, then the accursed weapons can be better just letting you throw out a bunch of attacks. I don't think you can go wrong either way, but fists seem to be the more popular option when you actually see terminators in lists.

Also do you plan on starting them on the board? I think that is one of the big advantages in Raiders, not having to rely on DS to get your terminators places with the advance and shoot.

Im a Renegade Raiders detachment, I ran a squad of 10; 6 Powerfists, 4 Accursed Weapon and all Combi Bolters. In theory, I thought the Sorcerer would give me 40 shots with AP2. But, if you roll a 1 for Death Hex.....

To be honest, it could be slightly tweaked for a bit more efficiency but requires more work to build and paint....that will be on my back burner.

However, Renegade Raiders and the Terminators is a pretty solid unit to put on the table for midboard control. Definitely will go in my future lists.