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 Tamereth wrote:
Fallout 3 shows an undetonated bomb with vault tec id on it, and in fallout 4 theres definitely some logs that suggest it. But the show is the first time they have 100% confirmed it. It was always left as an unknown as to who started the apocalypse, vault tec being responsible was just hinted at.

Well, we now know Vault-Tec intended to do it. There’s perhaps (in my limited knowledge) still the possibility someone else beat them to that punch.

I think it was heavily implied in previous games that China was the one who launched the nukes first and it's possible this change to pushing Vault Tec to be the more likely suspect is tied to Amazon not wanting to piss off the China market since I believe this show is also aired there.

That or its the showrunner/director doing a good job of demonising corporatism and capitalism?
Y'know like Fallout is supposed to do? Vault-tec isn't exactly a good company and them manipulating world events to maximise profits and establish a super monopoly is a but cartoonist but that's also still very Fallout.

 Gert wrote:
That or its the showrunner/director doing a good job of demonising corporatism and capitalism?
Y'know like Fallout is supposed to do? Vault-tec isn't exactly a good company and them manipulating world events to maximise profits and establish a super monopoly is a but cartoonist but that's also still very Fallout.

It's a bit rich for you to be cheering on the show demonising capitalism when its being produced by one of the most capitalistic companies in the world and you're contributing to what I assume you think is a great evil in the world.

Also, have you not seen how much Hollywood bends over backwards to try and get some of that sweet Chinese money, including Disney thanking China explicitly for allowing them to film Mulan in Xinjiang, where the Uyghur genocides are currently taking place. It goes even farther back all the way in 2015, when the movie Pixels was only allowed to be released in China if they removed the scene where aliens burst through the Great Wall of China, showing how sensitive and controlling a totalitarian dictatorship is of their public image (who would have guessed!) and actively removing Finn from the Star Wars movie posters in China to appeal more to the Chinese audience? I don't think it's unrealistic to think that there's some self-censorship going on to avoid antagonizing the Chinese given the historical precedent.

Multiple things can be true my guy.

When we're basically still in a Cold War with China in the West, I don't see it as weird to be aware of the soft power they have over Western entertainment (I have Hong Kong ancestry so it's a very real issue for me/and my family). Also, Vault Tec was already unambiguously evil to begin with, so you do you if you think them launching the nukes is top tier writing, but it's like putting chocolate icing on chocolate, it's more of the same rather than the nuance of how anyone could have actually caused the Great War to take place as it was a powder keg of MAD.

Next thing you'll be telling me in the next season is that seeing deathclaws kill people with their claws is revolutionary and brilliant, bravo Nolan, bravo!

On Episode 3 and having a blast. The Brotherhood stuff has been the weaker part for me so far.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
So watched series

Spoiler:

Fantastic. Hilarious and completely captures the spirit of Fallout. It got me.

I loved the twist with the NCR. They set up where everyone is a monster and the reveal that they’re the good guys and there isn’t some sinister super weapon when she presses the button to turn the lights back on. I did think when the Vaults say “we’re going to build a new America” that well they’ll be disappointed to learn they got beat to the punchline. I can understand being annoyed at them turning the clock back but I think it gives them a great premise to work with in future seasons and I am entirely sold on it. I don’t think people who did that Ranger scene were people who didn’t like the faction and it’s far more pro NCR than New Vegas.

Definitely leaves the door open for something like either the reform the Minutemen situation for the NCR or an Elder Lyon’s esque thing with Maximus. They spent the time to establish that after Shady Sands went lots of them went to back to their farms with their gear. That is exactly the same as the Minutemen and with a very evil version of the Brotherhood trying to rule California; it seems set up for that.

Surprised at the Enclave misdirect. Vault Tec sort of fulfills the same role and had the same idea as the Enclave. Maybe they’re going to have a second reveal in season 2. The Enclave Scientist did know about the vaults and her father; so I am guessing that’s the case. Which could be setting up a big enclave war either against the NCR or Brotherhood.

But yeah, it’s Fallout and it is by people who love the games.

The only thing that annoyed me was Lucy not killing her Dad. I felt her holding back wasn’t right in that moment and it was a little too heavy handed to set things up for next season.

I would not have said that NCR

Good show.

 BrookM wrote:
Re: NCR

Spoiler:

NCR got nuked and taken out of the picture, which really pisses me off that they so easily write the NCR off like that. This is a massive faction that grew from a small farming town made up of Vault 15 survivors into a, for better or for worse, an attempt at pre-war society. This is the faction that has beaten Caesar's Legion and they get removed from the setting so easily, it really pisses me off, especially because this is canon.

 Tamereth wrote:
The only criticism I heard about it is from new vegas fanboys who hate that the NCR were diminished.

Shouldn't that be NCR fanboys instead? I never finished the game on Caesar's side, but I thought that you can choose to actively diminish the NCR yourself.

I guess Todd Howard / Bethesda finally got his revenge against Black Isle Studios / Obsidian.

It wasn't enough for him not to understand the Fallout world, to clumsily force permanent stagnation and bring the Enclave back to life all the time. He also had to do away with the only faction put forward by Black Isle / Obsidian that went against this forced stagnation.

feth this guy and this company.

Yes, I'm extremely salty.

 Grimskul wrote:
Also, Vault Tec was already unambiguously evil to begin with, so you do you if you think them launching the nukes is top tier writing, but it's like putting chocolate icing on chocolate, it's more of the same rather than the nuance of how anyone could have actually caused the Great War to take place as it was a powder keg of MAD.

Could you be less of a dick? You immediately jumped to "It's them darned Chinese" like you are in Fallout for gods sake.

Vault-Tec doing inhumane experiments and causing the event that allows them to do those experiments with no oversight is still a big step. Even if they just tipped the scales and caused the first bomb to drop that would still light the fuse.
I've just started up a new F4 save and the Vault-Tec rep you meet at the very very start of the game is super nervous when he's talking to you. He didn't know what Vault 111 was doing because if he did, he wouldn't have tried to get in when you see him again a few minutes later. Chances are he's been told to get everyone into his assigned Vault because some big event was coming through the grapevine at Vault-Tec. What else could possibly be coming that Vault-Tec would be excited about and why else would he be as nervous as he was?

 Gert wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Also, Vault Tec was already unambiguously evil to begin with, so you do you if you think them launching the nukes is top tier writing, but it's like putting chocolate icing on chocolate, it's more of the same rather than the nuance of how anyone could have actually caused the Great War to take place as it was a powder keg of MAD.

Could you be less of a dick? You immediately jumped to "It's them darned Chinese" like you are in Fallout for gods sake.

Vault-Tec doing inhumane experiments and causing the event that allows them to do those experiments with no oversight is still a big step. Even if they just tipped the scales and caused the first bomb to drop that would still light the fuse.
I've just started up a new F4 save and the Vault-Tec rep you meet at the very very start of the game is super nervous when he's talking to you. He didn't know what Vault 111 was doing because if he did, he wouldn't have tried to get in when you see him again a few minutes later. Chances are he's been told to get everyone into his assigned Vault because some big event was coming through the grapevine at Vault-Tec. What else could possibly be coming that Vault-Tec would be excited about and why else would he be as nervous as he was?

Hey, you're the one who jumped on my comment straight away when I said there could be a financial reason why it was written to favour Vault-Tec as the main culprit for the start of the nuclear exchange in the Great War, and that was to appeal to a broader demographic including China, which you made it sound as if though its a conspiracy theory even though this has precedence, particularly for big Hollywood productions (you know, the capitalists you hate so much) where they want to maximize every inch of profit and reduce risk.

Also, using Fallout 4 as the basis for support towards this theory of it being set in stone prior to the show is pretty nebulous when that's basically at the start of the era of Bethesda starting to overwrite and take over the original lore from the creators (similar to how they basically retcon the events of New Vegas with the show), but even within that context Vault-Tec, by virtue of their company being (on the surface) based around making vaults to survive a nuclear war would have early warning detection systems and as one of the biggest and most powerful companies in the US, would be one of the first people tipped off if a preemptive strike or nuclear escalation were to occur, likely far earlier than the civilian population, so it may be that they heard about nukes being launched by either the Chinese or another 3rd party and reacted accordingly. Or you could just argue that they saw the nuclear tension of the current political climate had reached its peak and were scrambling to get their subjects for experiments now before they lost the opportunity to do so.

Either way, I don't see how it adds anything to the lore to make Vault Tec like one smidge more terrible when they're already a caricature of an evil company.

Unethical experiments to causing the actual end of the world is a "smidge" to you? Ok, dude.

Was Vault-Tec evil ? Yes. Fallout 1 & 2 are crystal clear about that. But by seemingly going the route of "Vault-Tec caused the end of the world", they (Bethesda and the show) make a mockery of what Fallout is about. Because it's not just about Vault-Tec and evil capitalists (even though capitalistics megacorporations are indeed fething evil in Fallout). Vault-Tec tried to take advantage of a hypothetical nuclear apocalypse and that was that. It's monstrous enough in itself to want to take advantage of such an event in a planned way that there's no need to go further and make the company the main instigator.

Vault-Tec was indeed deeply intertwined with the US governement through the militaro-industrial complex, but it had not taken over the US governement (afterall it would survive the nuclear apocalypse and become the Enclave). I mean, the US invaded and annexed Canada, established heavy military censorship, propaganda and control over the country and was, frankly, quite fascistic in lots of aspects (like the abduction, deportation and experimentation on Chinese Americans, etc). The US armies were also winning the war at that point. It is clear the US governement exercised great power right until the Great War.

The end of the world was not caused by one party. It was caused by all parties. Because each party didn't try to avoid it. Megacorporations tried to profit from it. The US governement was blinded by its MAD mindset and its obsession with defending the American Dream at all costs even if it meant taking over the world's ressources. China and the European Commonwealth were also guilty of the same behavior.

And even though the Great War happened, humankind seems incapable to evolve beyond this behavior. Hence the famous phrase "War never changes" which really means "Human nature never changes". The NCR was slowly following the same path as the US. The Enclave was a direct heir of the pre-war US governement. The Brotherhood of Steel focused on control instead of cooperation because of its pre-war US military legacy and thus faced heavy opposition. Robco and its CEO, Robert House, saw technological progress as the only true progress and were uninterested in building a different society (just like the pre-war world). All of them were, to quote House about the NCR and Caesar's Legion, "regurgitations of the past" (even though he is too). A past that destroyed the world.

By seemingly making Vault-Tec the main or sole instigator of the nuclear apocalypse, it diminishes Fallout's message. It's not one evil party in a sea of grey or good people. Everyone is responsible and humankind needs to try better if it wants to avoid repeating the same mistakes over and over. Only Richard Grey (the Master) tried something different but he miserably failed too.

As for the show, I had a good time. It's not great, but it's not average either. It's good. I liked all characters a lot (even though Lucy and Cooper are far more interesting than Maximus even though his character also had potential).

But I still rolled my eyes very hard when I discovered that the Shady Sands were destroyed. The justification for destroying it is stupid ("We have to destroy all factions because they wage war !" -but aren't you also a faction ? haven't you wage war by destroying another faction ?-). Also the NCR was the most interesting faction of Fallout so I cannot applaude the show for destroying it. Oh, and I cringed very hard during some scenes (like the scene with the """"cops"""" and Cooper).

As I mentioned? The reveal isn’t Vault-Tec started it. It’s more “confirmation Vault-Tec were willing to start it”.

Those are two separate propositions. And there’s space between them for other variations, such as Vault-Tec not being the first, but adding to it to ensure utter destruction.

Finished it, definitely was entertained throughout. There are some little lore issues that are a bit questionable. I had set my expectations real low though, after that LOTR show amazon slapped together.

There is a shift of critique on nation-states to critique of corporations (vault-tec). I do think this changes the feeling a bit, i'm not sure I like it, but I don't quite hate it either. It gives it more of a 'deep state' type feeling as opposed to cold war ideologically opposed governments slipping up leading to nuclear catastrophe.

The show is definitely quite good. Season 2 cant get here fast enough.

 Gert wrote:
That or its the showrunner/director doing a good job of demonising corporatism and capitalism?

Fallout is billed as a critique of capitalism. However it actually fails at that. Not to its detriment mind you.

The sinister goals of Vault-tec/The Enclave are actually completely counter to capitalism. The Enclave/Vault-tec are really socialists in disguise just as much as the Chinese front company Mama Dolces. The difference is they have no connection to the Chinese.

If Vault-tec were really only interested in profits, they would take advantage of the world being on the brink of nuclear war to be sure. They would sell on the fear. But they would also take steps to ensure the war never actually happened. If they just wanted to make money forever, they would just keep selling spaces in the vaults. Double or even triple booking vaults, maybe not even building many vaults but claiming they are. And they would try to just do this forever. Afterall, you can't sell spaces and make money if the war actually happens and everybody is dead.

Is it scummy to take advantage of the world being on the brink, yes. But ultimately its not evil. The evil comes in when Vault-tec decided that they would simply wipe out society as it was so they could rule as tyrants over the ashes.

Honestly, all of the examples of "Capitalism is evil" examples in Fallout actually happen when someone in the position of power does a decidedly anti-capitalist thing. Choosing a tyrannical power grab instead of maintaining the status-quo. The only thing that kinda comes close is the Pulowski Preservation Shelters. They take your money, but don't actually work. But then again the hope was they would never need to work. Scummy yes, evil no.

I hope they keep the notion of who pushed the button first ambiguous, but as is, it wasn't Vault-Tec that did it, because if they really did it, they would make sure that all vaults would be prepped in advance under the guise of drills and whatnot. A lot of vaults you come across in the games were missing key staff or even overseers, the very people they needed to run their social experiments, or did not have their full population present when it went down. The only faction really prepared for the bombs, well in advance at that, was the Enclave, with the last pre-war president hiding out on the Poseidon oil rig months before the bombs fell.

Also, Robert House, being the Howard Hughes expy that he is , had predicted when the bombs would drop, but was still surprised when the war happened earlier than expected, by a few weeks TWENTY HOURS, give or take IIRC, so he also wasn't in on when it was going to go down. I really need to replay Vegas again, Rene Auberjonois did an amazing job with him.

One fun theory that I've seen a few times with regards to the Brotherhood chapter Maximus belongs to is that they may or may not have absorbed or taken recruits from remnants of Caesar's Legion, whose vile and savage culture has seeped into the workings of that chapter. A bit far-fetched, but remember when Titus told Maximus what they would do to him when they'd get back?

Also, Maximus has got to be a low INT high LUCK build or something given how he bumbles through everything, people are having way too much fun applying game logic to the characters, like Lucy's brother having the small frame perk.

Grimskul wrote:Also, Vault Tec was already unambiguously evil to begin with, so you do you if you think them launching the nukes is top tier writing, but it's like putting chocolate icing on chocolate, it's more of the same rather than the nuance of how anyone could have actually caused the Great War to take place as it was a powder keg of MAD.

What I would've liked was for Vault Tec to cause the war by manipulating governments and events ever closer to war for their own short-term gain without realising that eventually one of those little nudges would be the straw that overflows the bucket if you'll excuse the mixed metaphor.

Yeah, while the lore has always had hints that they could have been directly responsible for the war I always viewed it as more likely that they simply were doing nudging back and forth and maybe someone nudged a little too much. It was always an ambiguous mishmash of Vault-tec, The Enclave, the Zetans, etc... as for who actually pushed the button first. So it is a bit much for them outright confirm they did it, or at least were planning to do it. The setting has always thrived on the ambiguity.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Question!

Spoiler:

I’m aware the games at least heavily implied Vault-Tec deliberately set off the apocalypse. But the show is completely explicit about it. Is that new lore?

It is completely new lore. The actual reason was that China was losing in alaska. Though it was heavily implied that a lot of higher ups got wind that nuclear armageddon would come, hence the great game quest.

This is entierly "new lore" and arguably with the dissolution of the NCR which somehow got nuked by vault tec for no apparent reason other than sure, made to damage F1, 2 and New Vegas, which were all done by the original devs and creators of the ip which also contrary to bugthesda can write a compelling story.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Question!

Spoiler:

I’m aware the games at least heavily implied Vault-Tec deliberately set off the apocalypse. But the show is completely explicit about it. Is that new lore?

It is completely new lore. The actual reason was that China was losing in alaska. Though it was heavily implied that a lot of higher ups got wind that nuclear armageddon would come, hence the great game quest.

This is entierly "new lore" and arguably with the dissolution of the NCR which somehow got nuked by vault tec for no apparent reason other than sure, made to damage F1, 2 and New Vegas, which were all done by the original devs and creators of the ip which also contrary to bugthesda can write a compelling story.

I wouldn't be jumping to conclusions yet.

The NCR was fairly large, I think the more likely explanation is that with Shady Sands getting blown up they have simply focused elsewhere in the ten years since New Vegas. They have like a dozen major cities.

Likely they simply didn't bother reasserting control over the vicinity of Shady Sands, which is why its reverted to a fairly lawless state. The NCR was also canonically in a bit of an economic depression from the strain of expanding so much. So they're definitely not gone, but could easily have shrunk a bit while trying to recover.

Its not unreasonable for Vault-tec to have access to a few nuclear weapons and the father only would have needed 1 to nuke it. Is the father dumb for nuking a city, yes but also no. He may be somewhat uninformed about whats been going on in the world and may assume that the Vault-tec plan is still viable.

Since they are keeping New Vegas canon, it is likely that the father is going to have a bit of a rude awakening and maybe a not so happy Mr House to meet. Mr House has his own agenda and while he certainly has no moral qualms about it he won't like to have random Vault-tec toadies going around nuking "the competition". Mr House's business only works if there are people around to actually partake.

It'll be interesting to see what ending to New Vegas they have decided to go with, speculation on my part; seeing as the lights are out, we may see the aftermath of a wild card ending taken to its logical conclusion, where the Courier decided to kill House and keep New Vegas from being annexed by the NCR or taken by the Legion, but it becoming such an anarchic free state that it collapsed onto itself.

Bit of a shame if this were the case, as I would love to see the tribes / families of the strip in the series.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As I mentioned? The reveal isn’t Vault-Tec started it. It’s more “confirmation Vault-Tec were willing to start it”.

Those are two separate propositions. And there’s space between them for other variations, such as Vault-Tec not being the first, but adding to it to ensure utter destruction.

That was my reading of it too. While I think the writing for that scene was a little too on-the-nose, I don't think it's outright saying Vault-Tec started the war, just that it was a possibility they were willing to suggest to the other mega-corporations. Maybe, like Mr House, they were resigned to the fact that the apocalypse would happen and were just taking advantage of that.

I think Vault-Tec in general were the weakest part of the show. The writing lacked a bit of nuance around them, IMO. The central premise that they knew about cold fusion and bought up all the companies working on it to stop it messing with their apocalypse plans is really dumb. As pointed out by Grey Templar, the writing of Vault-Tec makes little sense if they're supposed to be super-capitalists. Being the only people in control of the solution to all the world's energy problems would be a mega-corporations wet dream, so there's no reason to keep cold fusion secret if you're the ones that control access to it.

That said, one of the defining features of Vault-Tec in the games is that they're both evil and stupid, so maybe this does make some amount of sense after all.

Wonder if we’ll see Super Mutants in coming seasons.

It's all very well to be a company with monopoly on cold fusion, but it's not the sort of monopoly which would survive, governments would sieze it and other companies would steal the tech,

As long as your raking in profits from other sources it might be more profitable to bury it for now

Tim Cain, the creator of the first game, shares his thoughts on the series:

Watched it all yesterday. Never really played the games. Lots of fun. Really enjoyed it. It had all the things I recognized as being fallout with my limited knowledge. It's been renewed for a Season 2. Happy to watch that too.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:
Fallout 3 shows an undetonated bomb with vault tec id on it, and in fallout 4 theres definitely some logs that suggest it. But the show is the first time they have 100% confirmed it. It was always left as an unknown as to who started the apocalypse, vault tec being responsible was just hinted at.

Well, we now know Vault-Tec intended to do it. There’s perhaps (in my limited knowledge) still the possibility someone else beat them to that punch.

This is a very good point, just because we know vault-tec had plans to drop the bombs doesn't mean the Chinese or another third party didn't launch first.

Vault stuff and vault dweller was good, ghoul stuff was ok but buoyed by the actor, brotherhood stuff could have been left out and the show would have been better off. 200 year gap from war to now was too long for what they show of the world, unless what we see is the remnants of the civilisation that formed and was destroyed recently.
Best joke was the one about side quests.