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discussion in the female custodes threads about orks and gender have had me thinking about that, and I think it's actually a really interesting subject

so a baseline we need to establish that sex and gender are two different things, and I'll be talking about both of them. sex is physical, gender is societal. however, historically and biologically, neither of these are strict binaries even in a species as binary as humans. intersex people prove that the sexual binary is fraught, while gender has always differed on a culture-by-culture level. many cultures had two genders, but many more had three or more and allowed for people to move between them. some scholars of gender studies suggest that modern society is more complicated than people perceive it. a man who crossdresses (not a trans woman) will have a different gender that they perform separate from typical masculinity, as does a young boy, as does a trans man. gender can be highly fractured and multitudinous

however, we're talking about orks, which are alien in both biology and culture. to talk about their biology, however, we can look to their real world inspiration— fungus. fungus is interesting in conversations about biological sex, because it completely defies our concept of what sex is. numbers vary, but different types of fungus can have sexes in the thousands or tens of thousands. these differences are imperceptible without study, but all the same, fungi completely defy the concept of a sexual binary. thus, my proposal here is that ork sex mirrors that of earth fungus, namely in being incredibly weird and inhuman. they all seem to be the same thing to us humans, but that's just because we don't get ork biology. ask an ork and he'll tell you the differences are obvious

gender is less straightforward, as we only have ork culture to be pulling from. however, even from that, I can make some interesting conclusions. orks are, ostensibly, a mono-gender species, but like the issue of sex, this is what we see from a human perspective. and considering how much the imperium cares about the culture and society of xenos, we can safely assume they aren't doing further studies into ork gender

the main thing is that the ork gender we see parallels modern masculinity, but doesn't totally match it. it's still a different culture, with its own differences. ork culture is hyperfocused on violence, so that's naturally a part of the culture. but we can use this idea to gleam deeper into ork gender. the most obvious gender is the boy, the typical ork. as previously said, this is a massive brute hyperfocused on violence. it goes beyond a penchant for violence and turns into a loathing of the opposite. the reason why genestealers struggle to form cults in ork society is because they are more passive than normal orks, and thus rooted out and killed for being "unorky". we can also see this as these genestealer orks being killed for performing the typical gender incorrectly, in the same way that humans will often exclude and harass people they see as performing their gender incorrectly, such as crossdressing men

but I think ork gender goes beyond the simple boy, because much in the way that human gender is highly cultural and has been tied to different roles in society, ork genders would be multitudinous. there's no way that a lowly gretchin would be considered the same as an ork boy. the gender of a gretchin would be different from a boy. in the same way that some argue a child, a crossdresser, and a masculine man all have similar but different genders, we can say that shooting boyz and boyz that fight in close combat are two similar but different genders. oddboyz like meks or weirdboyz have their own cultural expectations and behaviors to fulfill, and so could be said to be their own gender. and, of course, the warboss can be a gender of its own, especially when you compare the role that the warboss has in society to queens in hive-based insects

so the TLDR here is that orks are weird and inhuman, and it's fun to speculate about what that could mean for their biology and culture, especially when we look at how weird humans already are

Sex is defined by the gamete produced - large, immobile or small mobile.

Other secondary sexual characteristics only exist as part of the biological systems for the production of those two gametes.

Fungus are interesting, although technically the yeast mating types you are referring to are not gametes as they are not a specialised sex cell. In biology they are referred to as mating types, rather than sexes, generally.

But yeah, I mean Ork spores could have loads of different mating types or a system similar to gametes and have a bajillion different ones. They don't need to be anything like earth fungus or algae.

I think if Orks have a concept similar to gender, maybe it's something like the clan structure, that seems to be a set of ideas linked to how a "proppa" ork should behave.

Alright, inb4 someone starts Female NEcrons thread.

You cannot prescribe human modalities and methodologies of life and philosophy to a non-human object. IT's anthropomorphizing. Gender is a wholly human created concept. Orks do not care.

Old Orkoid references have them regarding Eldari as "pansy elves hide in trees", which paints quite a strong preference for conservative masculinist attitudes and values

 tauist wrote:
Old Orkoid references have them regarding Eldari as "pansy elves hide in trees", which paints quite a strong preference for conservative masculinist attitudes and values

which aligns well with the example i cited of orks hating passive genestealer orks to the point of violence. no matter what form or feelings an ork has, violence will always be at the heart of it

That's what it means to be properly orky, and I think the eldar way of war is antithesis of that.

Well, they seem to be asexual.

In terms of reproduction the spore thing is just a hypothesis. Orks themselves, in typically Orky fashion, neither know nor particularly care where Yoofs come from.

Going back to Waaaargh! The Orks? All any one knew was old, doddery Ork took their leave, wandering off far from the settlement, and in turn Wildboyz would wander in.

Honestly? It’s kind of questionable if Orks even appreciate that other species have different sexes and genders. It’s not relevant to beating them up or making them make more guns and ammo for you, so it doesn’t matter to Orks at all.

If an ‘Umie clobbers an Ork? They just mark themselves out as the source of a decent fight, and opportunity to prove you’re ’Arder than Snazzgag, on account a weedy ‘Umie perished Snazzgag, and you then perished that ‘Umie.

It's kinda discussed in the Ghaz book- wot wiff Makari being a multi-grot. Since he remembers all his other lives, plus the fact he and Ghaz are inseparable, Makari is referred to as "They". Meanwhile, "Bites face of that before it bites his face" ("Biter") is a Bloodaxe and 'as the kno-wot's of humies- so he refers to self as "He/Him". They ask if he knows about gender in humans and he states yes, and it is hilarious.

Also remember that orks are also part vegetal/ fungi and in the plant world it is definitely non-binary. While some plants have "male/ female" pistils/ stamens, some are self- pollinating, others need another plant of same type, and some may only have one or the other. W/E- I'm not biolologis, but you get the point.

The fact that Orks were bio-engineered to be numerous negates typical biological genders- however, there are references to orks kneeing or kicking other "in the 'urty bits" so there has to be some sort of genital equivalent.

Biologically, I'd say they's asexual- morally, they're male with the kultur of kunnin brutality.

I dunno, I seem to remember it's implied that Orks release a lot of spores during fights with each other, and a massive release on death. So for Orks a fight to the death is also a sexual encounter because their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).

The drive to want to fight big impressive orks is also a sex drive, if you look at it that way.

That is a horrifyingly disturbing way to put that. I think I need to sit in the shower and cry for a bit.

That's certainly a way to look at it. And Orks get bigger the more they fight, bigger Orks have a greater surface area, which would allow them to spread more epidemial spores - they'd be more "virile"

But remember: sex != gender.

Orks are masculinely-coded, but they don't seem to have an innate concept of "gender" unless we define the term in a way that incapsulates something like "orkyness." Which, I'm honestly not sure if the term "gender" would apply there or not. Like, if a bunch of film snobs bully you for your taste in movies, they're bullying you for perceived differences but not because of your failure to perform a "gender." At least in the usual sense.

But that's more a matter of terminology. Orks don't have a concept of being "manly" or "womanly," but they do have a tendency to cluster together based on shared perspectives and behaviors and to act aggressively towards those who exhibit different perspectives/behaviors. Call that gender if you want.

From an out of universe perspective, Orks are stereotypically male.

From an in universe perspective, I'd imagine the closest things Orks have to gender in their own society is the various types of Boys. A MekBoy is different from a WeirdBoy in ways that matter to the Orks.
And, as a reminder, Orks are NOT stupid. They're simple. If an Ork force found itself on a planet with strong gender norms among the local populace, especially in regards to who fights, they'd learn that. They wouldn't ADOPT that to themselves, but they'd certainly learn that "Oomie men are the stabby ones, and oomie women man the artillery" or whatever the planet does.

 JNAProductions wrote:
From an out of universe perspective, Orks are stereotypically male.

From an in universe perspective, I'd imagine the closest things Orks have to gender in their own society is the various types of Boys. A MekBoy is different from a WeirdBoy in ways that matter to the Orks.
And, as a reminder, Orks are NOT stupid. They're simple. If an Ork force found itself on a planet with strong gender norms among the local populace, especially in regards to who fights, they'd learn that. They wouldn't ADOPT that to themselves, but they'd certainly learn that "Oomie men are the stabby ones, and oomie women man the artillery" or whatever the planet does.

yeah, this is definitely what i was thinking about. different roles having their own genders within ork society, which to outsiders seem identically masculine, but within the culture would come with their own signifiers and expectations

 Gert wrote:
That is a horrifyingly disturbing way to put that. I think I need to sit in the shower and cry for a bit.

Can I join you? Misery loves company and that put me in physical pain.

Haha, sorry guys. That biology degree has to get used somehow.

 Da Boss wrote:
...their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).

I had always assumed that, being an engineered race, the entire racial potential of the Orks was contained in a single spore. So they don't really reproduce sexually, but a single spore has enough genetic diversity inside it to produce the entire spectrum of Orks that we see.

Funny how this has thread has gone on and no one has bothered to actually quote the in universe perspective Orks have on humans, which you can see from 5th edition codex:

Oomans are pink and soft, not tough and green like da boyz. They'z all the same size too, so they'z always arguing about who's in charge, 'cos no way of telling 'cept fer badges an' ooniforms and fings.

When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me," or "I know summink wot you lot don't so yer better lissen good."

Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot of mukkin' about if yer asks me.

An' while they'z all arguing wiv each other over who's da boss, da orks can clobber da lot.

Which is funny because I think it sums up the fruitless back and forth of the gender discussions that's been happening with Custodes.

Another great quote is from Uthan the Perverse:

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn’t even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

Emphasis mine. Most of you are trying to transpose concepts onto an alien species that are so far removed from humanity that things like gender are things Orks wouldn't have and wouldn't care about. If it isn't about war or conflict, I think you've missed the point about Orks and it's kinda weird IMO how much the obsession for gender even goes into things that are effectively genderless. What next, are you guys going to talk about what genders rocks identify with?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
...their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).

I had always assumed that, being an engineered race, the entire racial potential of the Orks was contained in a single spore. So they don't really reproduce sexually, but a single spore has enough genetic diversity inside it to produce the entire spectrum of Orks that we see.

I am in this camp. Especially as it is exceptionally rare to see regional variants of Orks based on local conditions. They seem to be very resistant to genetic mutation and instead have a hard-coded genetic toolkit for adapting to different environments through technology and shifts in cultural balance.

Gorkamorka is a rare example, and that was explicitly stated to perhaps be due to exceptionally high radiation levels at the crash site.

We also don’t know for certain that there isn’t a lot of “How’s yer Warboss” going on.

Just because Orks don’t talk about it, doesn’t mean it’s not going on. And the sole physical difference could be the contents of trousers. Spesh given Orks don’t seem to need weaning, removing the purpose of mammaries and that.

Could be that’s how they fertilise their spores. But the “the transfer and pollination happens during punch ups” definitely makes sense.

 Haighus wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
...their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).

I had always assumed that, being an engineered race, the entire racial potential of the Orks was contained in a single spore. So they don't really reproduce sexually, but a single spore has enough genetic diversity inside it to produce the entire spectrum of Orks that we see.

I am in this camp. Especially as it is exceptionally rare to see regional variants of Orks based on local conditions. They seem to be very resistant to genetic mutation and instead have a hard-coded genetic toolkit for adapting to different environments through technology and shifts in cultural balance.

Gorkamorka is a rare example, and that was explicitly stated to perhaps be due to exceptionally high radiation levels at the crash site.

Yeah they seem to have pre programmed rapid evolution that is triggered by environmental conditions and the size of the herd. Some people have told me that that idea of orks being like fungi is just the theory of one imperial scientist and it’s not fact. But then that’s how most of 40K lore is written.

But I doubt that orks, even if there were male and female ones by human understanding, would have any differences in terms of roles played in society as all roles are dedicated to the war effort.

If it hasn’t been retconned yet, the orks were engineered as the krork by the Old Ones, who appear to take gendered forms, or are perceived as having gender by the (usually gendered) species they’ve created or uplifted. It seems to me like the krork kept some of the gendered coding from whatever species they started out as before uplifting or from the genetic pieces they were constructed from, even if presenting as masculine is something of a side effect of programming for strength, aggression and intimidation of gendered foes (Necrontyr/Necrons).

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If it hasn’t been retconned yet, the orks were engineered as the krork by the Old Ones, who appear to take gendered forms, or are perceived as having gender by the (usually gendered) species they’ve created or uplifted. It seems to me like the krork kept some of the gendered coding from whatever species they started out as before uplifting or from the genetic pieces they were constructed from, even if presenting as masculine is something of a side effect of programming for strength, aggression and intimidation of gendered for (Necrontyr/Necrons).

I think that's what I was kinda getting at, then my tangential mind got.. ooh- cat videos!
The Krorks were engineered because the old ones needed warriors NOW, so the spore/fungus thing promotes rapid growth without need for a complex society. Remember that humans/ fantasy analogues (Elves and such) form societies because it takes at least 9 months to carry to term, then the baby needs to grow up until it can fend for itself- unlike most animals, where, say a giraffe calf stands up minutes after being born.
Old ones didn't have time to foster/ coddle another race like the Eldar who (I assume) reproduce in typical human-like fashion. So, they gave them genetic/ psycho-warp knowledge that they just KNOW and made certain strains to fit roles IE: Meks, Painboys, Brewboys, etc.. All of this just from negating biological binary reproduction- which in turns negates the culture around bringing up a child, but also the whole culture of sex for procreation and recreation and it's impact on a society.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If it hasn’t been retconned yet, the orks were engineered as the krork by the Old Ones, who appear to take gendered forms, or are perceived as having gender by the (usually gendered) species they’ve created or uplifted. It seems to me like the krork kept some of the gendered coding from whatever species they started out as before uplifting or from the genetic pieces they were constructed from, even if presenting as masculine is something of a side effect of programming for strength, aggression and intimidation of gendered foes (Necrontyr/Necrons).

Not retconned, but it was only ever implied in the original Necron Codex.

Eldar are explicitly creations of the Old Ones, and if memory serves it was said work on what would become humanity was also started.

Krorks are mentioned, but it’s only our own inference they became the Orks. Which if we’re completely honest is like saying because two words kind of sound similar, they therefore mean or refer to the same thing. Though I think it’s explicitly said The Nightbringer, somehow, never quite got round to ensuring the Krork had a concept of Death? It’s been ages since I read that lore.

Even if Krorks are the base species? We’ve still billions of years of evolution to take into account, and that’s before we consider that, at some point, some doofus might’ve tried some genetic engineering on Krorks, which lead to Orks as we know and love them today. And that includes their seemingly symbiotic relationship to Fungus, which we’ve no way of safely saying has always been there.

It’s like knowing us smelly hoomans share the Dimetrodon as an ancestor with all other synapsids, then claiming that therefore us smelly hoomans are Dimetrodons, every man jack of us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This line of thinking could be hit with a big enough hammer (as is tradition) to include the Orks’ own, original creation myth as presented in Waaargh! The Orks, specifically the fall of the Brainboyz.

What if some well meaning idiot tinkered with Krork DNA, seeking to erase the potential for a Leader Caste to emerge from their genetic soup. The Oddboyz that would emerge to properly organise the other Oddboyz and Boyz (or equivalent). Done in an attempt to curtail their combat efficiency by just…editing out a formal command structure.

And in doing so, made it all so much worse. Without the Brainboyz to tell the Orks who and where to attack (left out how deliberately, they know how), they became the properly anarchic threat we know today.

Where once there might’ve been a considered approach to hopping aboard a Space Hulk with as many ladz as you had or would fit, and a set destination in mind and in reach? Now the middle bit still happens, but the Orks neither know nor care where they’re going, because there’s always gonna be a fight. The Orks are that fight,

If there’s anything to this mad rambling? I’m betting whoever edited out the Brainboy strain felt pretty sheepish, pretty sharpish. Like they’d tried to put out a chip pan fire with a bucket of water, and now even the fire is on fire.

mrFickle wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
...their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).

I had always assumed that, being an engineered race, the entire racial potential of the Orks was contained in a single spore. So they don't really reproduce sexually, but a single spore has enough genetic diversity inside it to produce the entire spectrum of Orks that we see.

I am in this camp. Especially as it is exceptionally rare to see regional variants of Orks based on local conditions. They seem to be very resistant to genetic mutation and instead have a hard-coded genetic toolkit for adapting to different environments through technology and shifts in cultural balance.

Gorkamorka is a rare example, and that was explicitly stated to perhaps be due to exceptionally high radiation levels at the crash site.

Yeah they seem to have pre programmed rapid evolution that is triggered by environmental conditions and the size of the herd. Some people have told me that that idea of orks being like fungi is just the theory of one imperial scientist and it’s not fact. But then that’s how most of 40K lore is written.

But I doubt that orks, even if there were male and female ones by human understanding, would have any differences in terms of roles played in society as all roles are dedicated to the war effort.

I wouldn't even say they really adapt to environmental conditions, instead they bring their own ecosystem with them. Where Orks evolve there are immediately Squigs to eat and snots and grots to build and so on. An Ork "infestation" of a planet is just that.

Orkiforming is definitely a Thing.

Even back to their original lore, there was an order to Orky stuff appearing. First Squigs, Snots and Grots to get some kind of basic farming. The first Orks are Wildboyz, with Runtherds and Pigdoks being the first Oddboyz to manifest

As that population grows, the other Oddboyz begin to manifest alongside it.

And I think in Xenology, it’s even speculated that Ghaz himself is an Oddboy, a hitherto unseen Natural Leader Caste - which with the events on Ullanor and rise of The Beast may well be on to something.

One could argue the Oddboyz are a sort of genetic stress response. That as a given Ork society grows, it produces the specialists required to maintain itself, and grow further.

Then, for me at least, there’s the question of whether Speed Freeks, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz etc are themselves a form of Oddboy.

I mean, every Ork can see the fun in going fast, blowing stuff up and setting people on fire. But the Cults become obsessed with it, and very, very good at it.

Likewise Freebooterz, who almost act as an explorer Caste.

I think subkulturs and kults are different to oddboyz in scale, especially given oddboys themselves can be drawn in.

The Addiction kults are either a byproduct of the basic Ork encoding to encourage their core behaviours or deliberate engineering to result in a variety of warband types that can synergise in campaigns together or allow for optimum strategies in unusual situations. For example, artillery warbands coming to the fore in sieges or kults of speed dominating on open plains. It is probably both on reflection, with the former being a vehicle to ensure the latter. This would be a kind of pre-programmed contingency/adaptation to allow Ork forces to respond to different threats.

Subkulturs seem to be the same process, but at a mob level rather than warband level, and provide extra capability within a warband. I suppose you could argue oddboyz are the same again at an individual level, allowing for specialist capabilities at all levels of Ork society. At the other end are Clans, which are arguably the tribal level specialisation above kults.

Wow, this thread managed to be both interesting and measured, instead of spiraling off into some Orky equivalent of the culture wars. Another demonstration of why Orks are better than Custodes...

While Orks are essentially cockney soccer hooligans, and thus very male from our standpoint, subjectively their behaviour is just 'Orky' - they see themselves entirely from a racial perspective, in which being 'Orky' is being strong, violent and (preferably) big. If you're not Orky, you're a wuss. Any gender-specific words or expressions ascribed to them (like 'pansy' and 'urty bits') are also just Imperial approximations of whatever it is that Orks actually speak.

That doesn't mean that Da Boss's equating of the urge to fight with sex drive is wrong. Which is unfortunate, and I'm joining Gert and MorganFreeman in the shower...

 tauist wrote:
Old Orkoid references have them regarding Eldari as "pansy elves hide in trees", which paints quite a strong preference for conservative masculinist attitudes and values

Also this is a translation - humans are going to use their own reference points when trying to understand what Orks are saying.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Going back to Waaaargh! The Orks? All any one knew was old, doddery Ork took their leave, wandering off far from the settlement, and in turn Wildboyz would wander in.

Waaaargh the orks is more specific than that. Half the aged orks develop pouches and gestate new yoofs. I think that's the book.

For the modern ork, any mating almost definitely takes place at a microscopic stage, when hyphae growing from separate spores meet each other in the medium. A hyphal stage certainly exists because inanimate orkoid mushrooms are used for food, fuel, and propellant, so this form is necessary to obtain mineral nutrients from the medium.

This hyphal stage could even be the primary state of ork existence. The individual boy or snotling et al is more like an ephemeral construct extruded from the main, microscopic ork society in order to do tasks on the surface world. This obviously isn't a conscious stage, but it's similar to a hymenopteran colony being one super organism where, where the individual organisms don't really have a separate existence.


This can account for phenomena like makari. Terrestrial fungi are often karyogamous, where a given cells has multiple distinct nuclei from different donors. A given boy can be walking around with every cell in his body containing the genome for a completely distinct second or third boy that isn't expressed.