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I mean, I just don't think it was a lot better in the 80s UK where this was being written?
You'd got Thatcherism, Section 28, violent policing, an actual bloody civil war in Northern Ireland...it wasn't all sunshine and roses. Hate speech? Try armed militias beating the crap out of you for being a Catholic Civil Rights marcher or terrorists blowing up pubs in Birmingham.

So I don't really buy that things are worse now. Several hundred per cent rise in hate speech is because hate speech is a relatively new concept and wasn't reported in the past, so obviously as the concept catches on more so people are reporting it more. There was plenty of hateful speech in the 80s too.

Thing is? What’s considered a hate crime now was….language and attitudes freely aired on TV as part of entertainment.

The internet serves to magnify the level of nutters.

I'm pretty sure there was a lot more casual violence in society in the 1980s. But the US might be moving that way, versus a relatively quiet 90s/2000s. (Terrorism, both domestic and foreign aside.)

Tyel wrote:
The internet serves to magnify the level of nutters.

I'm pretty sure there was a lot more casual violence in society in the 1980s. But the US might be moving that way, versus a relatively quiet 90s/2000s. (Terrorism, both domestic and foreign aside.)

US crime stats say otherwise, being down considerably from 2010 levels for both violent and property crime, let alone the levels we had in the 80s and 90s.

 Da Boss wrote:
I mean, I just don't think it was a lot better in the 80s UK where this was being written?
You'd got Thatcherism, Section 28, violent policing, an actual bloody civil war in Northern Ireland...it wasn't all sunshine and roses. Hate speech? Try armed militias beating the crap out of you for being a Catholic Civil Rights marcher or terrorists blowing up pubs in Birmingham.

So I don't really buy that things are worse now. Several hundred per cent rise in hate speech is because hate speech is a relatively new concept and wasn't reported in the past, so obviously as the concept catches on more so people are reporting it more. There was plenty of hateful speech in the 80s too.

I think I misunderstood what you meant, then. I thought you meant the wider fan backlash against that kind of thing, with the US being a significant source for the backlash and pretty much most of the social media problems.


If you were asking why were people more okay with this kind of humor back when racism was mainstream, police were less accountable and everyone understood teachers were encouraging bullies to beat up the kids who were different, I think the question answers itself. And I apologize for reading your statements as inflected with nostalgia for that period as if decrying how comedy can’t be funny any more ifyouknowwhatImean. That was what I thought you were getting at.

I have question regarding the "fasism in w40k" thing. How is generaly understood, because it can be actual fasism. That thing with its separation of church and state nationalisation of production and focus on citizentship rather then nationality is nothing how W40k Human Imperium is run. So is it like used as a stand in for "things I don't like to happen" or is there is a set of things that define the w40k state in a peculiar way. I am almost confused by the wording used regarding settings like w40k.
Xenophobia for example, a specific definition for a very odd to wrong point of view on the world. But only in the "setting" we have right now. There is absolutly nothing xenphobic about wanting to kill eldar, ork, tyranids etc on sight, because the threat from all those races is not imaginary. Eldar for example wiped out the population of a hive planet, just to get a few soult stones the governour used as jewlery. Tyranids kill and eat humans. Orks kill humans and enslave some, and sometimes they eat them too. Tau technicaly take humans in, but they have sterilisation programs, and then there is also Farsight who is very anti everything no tau, not just humans.

So a phobia of a xeno, isn't a phobia, it is a regular warented fear.
Same with the with witch/mutant thing. In our world, as long as it ain't illegal, peresecution of someone for just being different is abhorable. I personaly am a mutant. But in the w40k setting being a unsactioned psyker or a mutant means one can become a gate to the warp and cause the destruction of the entire planet or even a sector. The expiriance of the long night clearly taught humanity to act fast and decise, when it comes to unsantcioned people.
And it is not even something some odd. I come from a rural region that was plagued in the last decade or so, by swine and bird flu. If a source of any of those gets found near a farm, all the birds/pigs are killed. And it is done swift, because not doing it risks further spreading.

Karol wrote:
I have question regarding the "fasism in w40k" thing. How is generaly understood, because it can be actual fasism. That thing with its separation of church and state nationalisation of production and focus on citizentship rather then nationality is nothing how W40k Human Imperium is run. So is it like used as a stand in for "things I don't like to happen" or is there is a set of things that define the w40k state in a peculiar way. I am almost confused by the wording used regarding settings like w40k.

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterised by a dictatorial leader, centralised autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

Authoritarian - Check
Ultranationalist - Check
Dictatorial leader - Immortal God Emperor and also his Demi-God Son who cannot be impeached
Centralised autocracy - Nominally in the idea of the Emperor but technically ruled by the High Lords who claim to be the chosen voice of the Emperor. Authority is derived from the Emperor in all cases.
Militarism - Check
Forcible suppression of opposition - Check
Belief in natural social hierarchy - In the sense that the strong rule the weak, yes
Subordination of individualism - Check
Strong regimentation of society and economy - Check

The only things that the Imperium doesn't follow with regard to "traditional fascism" are the various inter-human isms like sexism or racism but that is because humanity has largely moved beyond those (sexism does still exist in some places within the Imperium).

Xenophobia for example, a specific definition for a very odd to wrong point of view on the world. But only in the "setting" we have right now. There is absolutly nothing xenphobic about wanting to kill eldar, ork, tyranids etc on sight, because the threat from all those races is not imaginary. Eldar for example wiped out the population of a hive planet, just to get a few soult stones the governour used as jewlery. Tyranids kill and eat humans. Orks kill humans and enslave some, and sometimes they eat them too. Tau technicaly take humans in, but they have sterilisation programs, and then there is also Farsight who is very anti everything no tau, not just humans.

Other races being Xenophobic does not in and of itself justify Xenophobia. The Federation faces the Romulans, Cardassians and Klingons all of which have a healthy dose of Xenophobia yet the Federation remains Xenophilic in nature.
The Imperium is Xenophobic because the Emperor preached that humanity is destined to rule the stars and that all who opposed this were to be destroyed.

Same with the with witch/mutant thing. In our world, as long as it ain't illegal, peresecution of someone for just being different is abhorable. I personaly am a mutant. But in the w40k setting being a unsactioned psyker or a mutant means one can become a gate to the warp and cause the destruction of the entire planet or even a sector. The expiriance of the long night clearly taught humanity to act fast and decise, when it comes to unsantcioned people.
And it is not even something some odd. I come from a rural region that was plagued in the last decade or so, by swine and bird flu. If a source of any of those gets found near a farm, all the birds/pigs are killed. And it is done swift, because not doing it risks further spreading.

Witch hunts are mob justice and are just as likely to kill a non-Psyker as a Psyker. Psykers themselves are rare in most societies and most humans will never meet a Psyker. But the idea that your neighbour could secretly be an evil disgusting Psyker keeps people afraid and easy to control.
As for mutants, Xmen should be all the nuance you need into that situation. Are mutants really the problem or did humanity mark them as evil because they were afraid?

 Gert wrote:
[
The Imperium is Xenophobic because the Emperor preached that humanity is destined to rule the stars and that all who opposed this were to be destroyed.

Do you not think that humanity would have had essentially the same outlook on xenos without the Emperor?

Humans have been fighting Orks since the Dark Age. They don't hate greenskins just because big golden man said fungus men bad...

Orks yes, the hundreds of other races humanity exterminated? Not necessarily.

We know the Great Crusade wiped out hundreds of Xenos species. Both the Interex and Diasporex were human/Xenos allied empires that thrived before the Imperium genocided them.

For every Ork or Rangda, there is an Interex or Diasporex.

The races left by the end of the Crusade are the likes of the Orks and Hrud who were impossible to destroy completely, or the Aeldari who hid it the Webway. One of the problems that led to many within the Legions siding with Horus was the idea that the Emperor was going to destroy the Astartes because there was no power able to stand against the Imperium anymore.

 Gert wrote:

Ultranationalist - Check
Dictatorial leader - Immortal God Emperor and also his Demi-God Son who cannot be impeached
Centralised autocracy - Nominally in the idea of the Emperor but technically ruled by the High Lords who claim to be the chosen voice of the Emperor. Authority is derived from the Emperor in all cases.
Militarism - Check
Forcible suppression of opposition - Check
Belief in natural social hierarchy - In the sense that the strong rule the weak, yes
Subordination of individualism - Check
Strong regimentation of society and economy - Check

Communism checks just about all of these, for that matter. Bit of a general list.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Ultranationalist - Check
Dictatorial leader - Immortal God Emperor and also his Demi-God Son who cannot be impeached
Centralised autocracy - Nominally in the idea of the Emperor but technically ruled by the High Lords who claim to be the chosen voice of the Emperor. Authority is derived from the Emperor in all cases.
Militarism - Check
Forcible suppression of opposition - Check
Belief in natural social hierarchy - In the sense that the strong rule the weak, yes
Subordination of individualism - Check
Strong regimentation of society and economy - Check

Communism checks just about all of these, for that matter. Bit of a general list.

I don't really think the exact ideology matters in this case, any kind of modern political authoritarianism would do as a comparision. GW do openly describe it as a satire on fascism though. Again, I'm not sure they are succesful in this aim but that is because of writing skill more than intent I think.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Ultranationalist - Check
Dictatorial leader - Immortal God Emperor and also his Demi-God Son who cannot be impeached
Centralised autocracy - Nominally in the idea of the Emperor but technically ruled by the High Lords who claim to be the chosen voice of the Emperor. Authority is derived from the Emperor in all cases.
Militarism - Check
Forcible suppression of opposition - Check
Belief in natural social hierarchy - In the sense that the strong rule the weak, yes
Subordination of individualism - Check
Strong regimentation of society and economy - Check

Communism checks just about all of these, for that matter. Bit of a general list.

Well, Stalinism does to an extent (aside from nationalism and racism), communism, however, opposes basically every point on the list but the regimentation of economy.

There are certainly arguments to not see the Imperium as fascist per se. One very important aspect of fascism that's missing on Gerts list is the opposition to marxism and socialism, for example, which is also absent in the Imperium. (That is, if you don't take Chaos Cults as workers rights movements ).Totalitarian and conservatism might be more fitting than outright fascism.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Gert wrote:
[
The Imperium is Xenophobic because the Emperor preached that humanity is destined to rule the stars and that all who opposed this were to be destroyed.

.

Unfortunately not really. Tribalism is a very innate trait of humans, a primal instinct from the times when people living in another cave were 99% of the time an existential threat to our cave. This instinct in the modern world just subconsciounsly carries over to nations, religions, races... It takes an intellectual effort, education, study of history and psychology, societal pressure to overcome it (similarly to other destructive primal instincts).

The Imperium doesn't do any of those things, quite the opposite. Just like many politicians we know from our time it feeds it, supports it. And just like these politicians it does it for power.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Ultranationalist - Check
Dictatorial leader - Immortal God Emperor and also his Demi-God Son who cannot be impeached
Centralised autocracy - Nominally in the idea of the Emperor but technically ruled by the High Lords who claim to be the chosen voice of the Emperor. Authority is derived from the Emperor in all cases.
Militarism - Check
Forcible suppression of opposition - Check
Belief in natural social hierarchy - In the sense that the strong rule the weak, yes
Subordination of individualism - Check
Strong regimentation of society and economy - Check

Communism checks just about all of these, for that matter. Bit of a general list.

Well, Stalinism does to an extent (aside from nationalism and racism), communism, however, opposes basically every point on the list but the regimentation of economy.

There are certainly arguments to not see the Imperium as fascist per se. One very important aspect of fascism that's missing on Gerts list is the opposition to marxism and socialism, for example, which is also absent in the Imperium. (That is, if you don't take Chaos Cults as workers rights movements ).Totalitarian and conservatism might be more fitting than outright fascism.

I think the imperium would quite quickly put down any rhetoric about class struggle where it pops up!

The Imperium is a pastiche of various awful authoritarian regimes. Shades of Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and oppressive feudalism all smushed together to really drive home that it's an awful place to be. I don't think it's particularly lampooning any one of them, just taking everything and cramming it in.

 Da Boss wrote:
The Imperium is a pastiche of various awful authoritarian regimes. Shades of Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and oppressive feudalism all smushed together to really drive home that it's an awful place to be. I don't think it's particularly lampooning any one of them, just taking everything and cramming it in.

That's my take on it too, for that matter, with a big sprinkle of theocracy.

 Da Boss wrote:
The Imperium is a pastiche of various awful authoritarian regimes. Shades of Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and oppressive feudalism all smushed together to really drive home that it's an awful place to be. I don't think it's particularly lampooning any one of them, just taking everything and cramming it in.

That doesn't make it not fascist though. Calling the Imperium something like a theocratic militarist authoritarian state is just a long-winded way of saying fascist. This isn't Stellaris where you pick some ethics off a wheel and get a fancy government type.
I don't see whats so wrong with calling the Imperium what it is.

Karol wrote:Tau technicaly take humans in, but they have sterilisation programs, and then there is also Farsight who is very anti everything no tau, not just humans.

Just to address, but this simply isn't accurate.

The Tau sterilisation thing exists only in one form of media, and the canonicity isn't supported by any other media. Sure, you can choose to believe that source, but I'm just pointing out that it is not the most recent, nor is it corroborated.

Second, Farsight isn't "anti everything non-Tau". In fact, if I'm not wrong, he was one of the FIRST T'au to embrace the Gue'vesa. He's anti-Ethereal and anti-Ork, and almost certainly has a grudge against Space Marines and the Imperium, but that doesn't mean he's anti-HUMAN.

Third, the quality of life in the Tau Empire is significantly higher than that experienced by nearly all humans in the Imperium (caste system aside, which is *really* where the criticism over the Tau should come in from. If anything, the Ethereal Caste is the worst element of Tau society, and by Farsight breaking away from them, Farsight genuinely represents one of better elements of the Tau, and the main branch that could become something akin to the Interex in 40k)

So a phobia of a xeno, isn't a phobia, it is a regular warented fear.

Except when that "phobia" is used to justify killing Eldar that might genuinely have altruism in mind, or Tau, or the Interex, or humans who don't want to join the Imperium, or any of the countless xenos species that the Imperium regularly exterminate *simply for being xenos*.

Which is absolutely what the Imperium do.

Bobthehero: Oh yeah, theocracy absolutely. Stupid to leave that out!
Gert: Yeah no argument from me really. I don't have a problem with calling the Imperium fascist.

I think this is probably splitting hairs to the 9th degree, but I'd argue the Imperium is insufficiently developed to be fascist.

I mean a fundamental issue of the Imperium is that it isn't centralised. You could argue its more centralised in the most recent lore (cos Guilliman etc) - but not really.

Its social organisation is far closer to high middle ages feudalism (and I realise all those terms are contested) than the office politics of modern bureaucracies.

The military and bureaucracy are controlled by the central government, not the local nobility.

The various Adeptus are departments of government from the DOD (Astra Militarum, Navy) to the Home Office (Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Administratum).

Individual planets still have local government but that local government is beholden to the laws and edicts set by the central government and the enforcers of that government (Arbites, Munitorum, Administratum, Inquisition) have the authority to remove and replace that local government if it does not align with the wishes of the central government.

But to again raise the point, what is the point in using other terms when fascist fits what the Imperium is? Why bother calling it a feudal theocratic authority when one word does the job the same way?

 Gert wrote:

But to again raise the point, what is the point in using other terms when fascist fits what the Imperium is? Why bother calling it a feudal theocratic authority when one word does the job the same way?

Specificity?

 Gert wrote:
But to again raise the point, what is the point in using other terms when fascist fits what the Imperium is? Why bother calling it a feudal theocratic authority when one word does the job the same way?

Probably because if you dilute the term so much you end up arguing every government ever is fascist. Which is a bit reductive.

But really I think we come back to disagreements on the lore.

I mean the idea that the Imperium's military and bureaucracy are controlled by central government. They just aren't. The Imperium can barely communicate across its vast distances. How can it therefore possibly be run from the centre?

Random inquisitors roaming around doing what they fancy, requisitioning resources etc "in the name of the central government" isn't the same as being the central government. The connection just isn't there.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Specificity?

And as was pointed out earlier, the Imperium fits the bill for a fascist power. Just because I'm using one term rather than five doesn't mean I'm not being specific.

Tyel wrote:
Probably because if you dilute the term so much you end up arguing every government ever is fascist. Which is a bit reductive.

Cool but did you see the bit where I listed all the things that make a fascist state and how the Imperium matches them? I have a background in history and social sciences so this kind of thing is kind of my specialty. I'm not some Reddit warrior looking up HOI4 descriptions of government.
I'm not calling the Imperium fascist because it isn't left-wing, I'm calling it fascist because that's what it is.

But really I think we come back to disagreements on the lore.

I mean the idea that the Imperium's military and bureaucracy are controlled by central government. They just aren't. The Imperium can barely communicate across its vast distances. How can it therefore possibly be run from the centre?

Random inquisitors roaming around doing what they fancy, requisitioning resources etc "in the name of the central government" isn't the same as being the central government. The connection just isn't there.

Who orders the deployment of the Astra Militarum and Navy? Who requisitions the supplies and materials needed for these deployments? Who supervises the recruitment and training of the Astra Militarum and Navy? It's not local lords or nobles, it's the Departmento Munitorum, a department of Imperial government.
The fact that the Imperium is inefficient doesn't make it not fascist. Nazi Germany had massive internal strife between its upper echelons because Hitler kept pitting them against each other and when Hitler took direct control of the armed forces they performed poorly. Inefficiency is often a hallmark of fascist powers due to the constant need to keep everyone fighting each other so they aren't fighting the ruling figure.

Regarding the Inquisition, you are correct that they alone enforcing the will of the Imperium does not make it a central government. This is why I also listed the Arbites, who enforce the Lex Imperialis on all worlds and will remove a governor and their administration if they refuse to comply, the Munitorum, who oversees the recruitment of the various armed forces and will remove an administration who refuses this duty, and the Administratum, who enforces the Tithe and will remove anyone who causes problems for the Tithe being collected.
Sounds like a central government to me.

The Imperium is run from Terra and uses the Adeptus Terra to manage its territories. A governor might rule a planet but that planet adheres to the laws and edicts of the Imperium or the Imperium removes the governor.

I think the issue is that while on paper the IoM is supposed to be centralized, in practice it isn't by combination of unreliable warp communications and even more unreliable bureaucracy.

So while on paper the fleets and armies answer to Terra, on practice local military and political leadership do whatever they want while paying lip service to Terra and occasionally willing to go as far as open revolt if Terra oversteps its actual authority.

So while on paper the IoM is fascist, on practice we have to wonder if it is possible to suck so much at fascism like the IoM and still be fascist and I have seen argument go either way.

Now the Great Crusade on the other hand? That was actually fascist.

 Tyran wrote:
I think the issue is that while on paper the IoM is supposed to be centralized, in practice it isn't by combination of unreliable warp communications and even more unreliable bureaucracy.

So while on paper the fleets and armies answer to Terra, on practice local military and political leadership do whatever they want while paying lip service to Terra and occasionally willing to go as far as open revolt if Terra oversteps its actual authority.

But we're not talking about local military like the PDF or system defense craft, we're talking about the Guard and the Navy. The Guard is not controlled by the local political structure of the planet they fight on, nor is the Navy beholden to whoever commands a local defense fleet.
Likewise, while the Administratum and Arbites exist to support the rule of local powers, if those powers step out of line then both institutions can and will remove them from power.
I also think that you may be taking "centralised" to mean "all controlling" and that's just not what that is. Power in the Imperium is derived from Terra (more accurately the Emperor) and regardless of how efficient the bureaucracy may be, the ultimate claim to power still resides with Terra (and the Emperor). If Terra says "Jump", the rest of the Imperium says "Off of which cliff?".

So while on paper the IoM is fascist, on practice we have to wonder if it is possible to suck so much at fascism like the IoM and still be fascist and I have seen argument go either way.

Now the Great Crusade on the other hand? That was actually fascist.

Being a failing state doesn't mean the Imperium isn't fascist though. By that token the Italian Social Republic or 1945 Germany are both not fascist because they weren't doing it very well.

 Tyran wrote:
So while on paper the IoM is fascist, on practice we have to wonder if it is possible to suck so much at fascism like the IoM and still be fascist and I have seen argument go either way.

I mean, historically fascism sucks quite badly at running a fascist state as well, which might have something to do why their leader did a pretty good impression of a piñata.

Not only is it largely no longer satire it is essentially capeshit where the majority of the fanbase are expected to cheer when their fascist good guy superheroes beat up their cartoonishly evil and two-dimensional counterparts. It's a fascist power fantasy the majority of the time now.

 tauist wrote:
This reminds me, the writers of "The Boys" should start doing BL books. That series has the type of satire I personally find appetizing to the degree the old 40K lore gave me

Are you referring to the show or the comic? The show maybe, but the comic God no. "What if... the Salamanders were pedophiles lmao!" is the kind of satire I can do without.

 Da Boss wrote:

Like Tolkien's Orcs fairly obviously at least influenced by the urban poor and people he met in the army from that sort of background.

They're based on the Mongol hordes primarily.

"squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types" - JRR Tolkien

 Da Boss wrote:
Is it just a co-incidence that Savage Orcs are common in the part of the Old World that corresponds to real world Africa? I highly doubt it.

Wait, really? Whew lad and people defend that piece of gak setting.

 Tawnis wrote:

1) This entire situation in the first place was caused by their own regime being so messed up that Chaos didn't look that bad to some involved, especially when they started out only having a cursory understanding of it. It was Big E's totalitarianism that pushed many of the Primarchs to that point.

Without a single exception every Chaos-aligned Primarch is depicted as betraying the Imperium due to grievous personality flaws that the loyalist Primarchs are depicted as completely lacking by comparison. People will with a straight face say that it's okay for the Chaos Primarchs to be portrayed as ineffectual losers compared to their loyalist brothers because it's meant to show how Chaos has degraded what they once were and made them less than their peers who kept to the straight and narrow path of supporting a totalitarian genocidal regime.

Every Chaos Primarch is portrayed like this. Mortarion? Admits to Jaghatai Khan that he's essentially envious of the Emperor and aspires to be a tyrant and can't stand being one's lackey. Magnus? Can't admit fault for anything and fell because he refused to admit he might be wrong. Curze or Fulgrim? Lol, the former is fething insane and the latter is a cartoon villain. Perturabo? A petty and vindictive scumbag with a martyr complex. Even Angron, who you'd think is the only Primarch who lacks moral agency due to his situation is presented as someone unable to take responsibility for his own circumstances. Like uh, having needles put in his brain and being forced to lead a Legion he didn't want to. Although of course to make sure you know he's bad he has to do something cartoonishly evil like force his sons to put the Nails in their heads.

None of the loyalist Primarchs have any of these fun personality flaws and are all the more sterile for it, and ones who were originally being portrayed as less than ideal were whitewashed later, most notably Lion El'Jonson. Because being loyal to Space Hitler Jesus is good, betraying him is le bad.

This is what I mean when I say that 40k is just fascist capeshit. The heroic Imperium are there to make the hard choices and look badass while they mow down either the traitorous and cowardly Chaos forces or the perfidious and subversive Je- I mean Xenos.

And as pointed out in this thread it doesn't help that the setting is written in such a way now that the Imperium's actions are often portrayed as justified. It's not satire if an Inquisitor wipes out a city's population because some kid found a red rock that oh is actually possessed by a Daemon and could possess the kid and cause him to be possessed by a Daemon Prince which would open a rift in the Warp and cause the legions of Hell to pour through and corrupt the entire planet. It's just fascist apologia as mentioned.

As someone who's been in the hobby since 1989, I don't think there's any satire in it.

I think perhaps a lot of you who think it's satire need to read some of the mid 1900's sci-fi. Try Larry Niven's "A Gift From Earth" or "A World Out of Time", just as two examples. Science Fiction for most of the 20th century foresaw the inevitable future of humanity as being an impersonal communist state that would grind any independent thinker to dust.

WH40K came along at the end of the Cold War, when those of us living at the time had the specter of global thermonuclear war looming over us in a much more ever-present way than do modern generations. It seems natural to me that Britishers in the 80's would read sci-fi and speculate on what the galaxy might look like in 38000 years and come up with this.

Come to think of it, you can also read John Scalzi's MUCH more recent "Old Man's War" to find source material that has as its underlying ethos "anything to preserve humanity."

Personally, I think all the "WH40K is satire" stuff is nonsense created by the younger generations who can't handle the fact that a fictional universe doesn't have people behaving in an ideal fashion (to them).

It's not satire, it's meant to convey how high the stakes are for every battle. And if you read the novels and the material with that in mind, it all makes perfect sense. Especially if you have any experience with bureaucracy.

 dadx6 wrote:
It's not satire, it's meant to convey how high the stakes are for every battle.

Can you elaborate on this point?

Because "Dystopic fascist regime" vs. "Brutal warmongering nihilists" doesn't exactly have the same stakes as, say, "Noble, if flawed, group," vs. either of the aforementioned. Or even two groups that have good means/ends/both but still have differences.

If the Imperium wins, humanity is under the a regime that's straight-up horrific.
If Chaos wins (not necessarily the gods, but someone like Abaddon) then most of the life in the galaxy is wiped out in brutal ways due to infighting eventually.
If Nids win, everyone gets eaten.
If Necrons win, everyone gets enslaved.

Like... There's no good ending, so any given battle just helps determine which horrible ending you get. Why yes, the stakes are very high when you choose between death via torture (starting on the left side of your body) and death via torture (starting on the right side of your body).