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I've been wondering about Tyranid eating habits lately.

Can Tyranids eat Daemons or Daemon Worlds?

Also, how does the Shadow in the Warp affect Daemons?

Kinda?

They can certainly chew them up, as once in the mortal plane, Daemons do have a physical form.

Whether they gain any sustenance? I’m gonna go with probably not, or minimal. Ectoplasm is a thing and a physical substance. But that doesn’t mean it has any DNA or nutrients in it.

If I’m right in thinking, the Hive Fleet presently targeting Daemon Worlds has reserves of non-Daemonic biomass left out for it by other Hive Fleets?

Eat, no. There's no biomass in Daemons it's all Warpstuff.

I don't recall the source, but I have an impression from somewhere that the Shadow in the Warp does have an effect on daemons, weakening them.

Deamon or Tyranid Codex from 5th I believe, the more the Nids won the weaker the Deamons got due to the Shadow overpowering the Warp energies on the planet.

May be wrong with the source but it's been a hot minute.

So, do Tyranids know that Daemon Worlds are not worth attacking?

There’s a Hive Fleet doing exactly that, by preference.

My take is that’s the Hive Mind trying to figure out what this tasteless Prey That Fights actually is.

Outside of the novels and codexes, Daemonic incursions are fairly rare, in galactic terms. And so the Hive Fleets won’t have encountered them with anything like the same regularity as Humans and Orks. Reduced experience = reduced understanding.

Where I suspect they may more commonly interact is when some desperate fool summons Daemons in an attempt fight off a Tyranid Invasion. If that gets out of hand and an uncontrolled Warp Breach occurs? Well that’s bad for business.

Yup, Hive Fleet Kronos is the test bed for how the Hive Mind is dealing with Chaos forces as a whole.

Ranged biomorphs are more common as it's figured out that Chaos forces are particularly brutal in close quarters fighting, the Shadow in the Warp is much stronger within Kronos than other Hive Fleets, and it has a symbiotic relationship with Leviathan that breaks the defences of a world but leaves the Biomass for Kronos to consume.

Kronos has even moved on from a focus on Chaos to a wider focus on psychic species as a whole attacking Imperial worlds that had Psyker population booms during the Pyschic Awakening and even attempting to go after a Craftworld.

You mentioned Tasteless prey. That's what I always felt like Tyranids must think when they start noshing on Necrons.

☆

But can Tyranids enter the Warp? If they figure out how to gain sustenance from Warp beings, then it's a party.

There, I think that’s the Hive Mind figuring out that Daemons are most vulnerable to Psychic attacks. Kinda like how us humans are mostly water, but surprisingly easy to drown (or so I’ve heard).

So, Kronos’ first step is to gain as much focussed, practical experience in tacking that specific Prey That Fights. Do what the overall Hive Mind does, and experiment with as many combinations of genetics and strategies, see which work best.

From there? Work out how best to further develop and reinforce What Works Best - hence scuttling off to consume as many active Psykers as possible, looking for new genetic information in their genomes which might by used to create better suited constructs to take over there to kick daemon ass.

So, Kronos isn’t just about trying to eat Daemons (I’ve no doubt that’s been tried. It is after all your first stop), but when that presumably failed (they have no DNA to digest and learn from), focus on how best to defeat and ultimately contain that specific threat should it turn up.

I suspect there’s also likely some kind of vaccine type angle to it. You and I know that exposure to the raw stuff of Chaos causes mutations, and when weaponised does horrible things to a flesh body.

Daemon Worlds are also home to various mortal beings. Not just men and Beastmen, but other fantastical creatures like Trolls, Minotaurs, Chimera and so on. Quite possibly the remnants of species long lost to Chaos wholesale which have settled into relatively stable mutated breeds.

Even in 2nd Ed Epic, Trolls were noted to be surprisingly resistant to Mutation. Not immune mind you, just highly resistant. That would almost certainly be an advantage the Hive Mind has an interest in, as it might provide a method (once isolated, understood and ramped up to 11) to stop Chaotic Mutations occuring in its own forces.

Given random mutation and then selection pressures are the bedrock of evolution, not something I think would be rolled out everywhere - just something used when trying to consume Daemon Worlds. Like an enhanced body armour for the genetic code.

The Tyranid Codices have described the creation of Hive Fleet Kronos specifically to counter Chaos because the Hive Mind sees Chaos and daemons as rival predators for the same prey. Even though Tyranids cannot directly gain sustenance from daemons (and hence why Kronos is supported by other Hive Fleets who leave easy worlds for it to consume), denying Chaos and daemons from creating more daemon worlds means more consumable worlds for the Tyranids. To counter daemons and warp rifts, the Shadow in the Warp of Kronos is particularly strong and it has been enough to smother and close small warp rifts. Kronos also seems to have a bit more focus on ranged combat to reduce losses since Kronos cannot replenish its biomass from banished daemons, only from other consumable life or from recycling its own dead.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
You mentioned Tasteless prey. That's what I always felt like Tyranids must think when they start noshing on Necrons.

☆

But can Tyranids enter the Warp? If they figure out how to gain sustenance from Warp beings, then it's a party.

Yes they can. In Storm of Iron, there’s a captured Hive Ship, forcibly infected with the Obliterator Virus that’s used as a Titan Landing Craft.

So that suggests they can enter the warp just as readily as a human, but with about the same chances of survival without some form of protection.

Their general lack of Warp Travel could be their greatest weakness, should they encounter a species with non-Warp involving methods of FTL (like original Necrons, who folded space). Such a species could then hunt a Hive Fleets whilst it’s crossing the space between solar systems. Not only are most Hive Ships hibernating during such a journey? But even small scale, rapid hit and run engagements, plinking a ship here, wounding there, would begin to reap a heavy toll, as the Tyranids have no outside source of biomass, only that the Hive Fleet has stored. Regenerating damage and birthing replacement ships all takes energy, after all.

Such engagements would also give the attackers a much clearer idea of where the fleet is actually headed next, which could allow for a build up of defences on the most likely target systems, the better to give the Nids a kicking on arrival.

From all that I've picked up

1) Tyranids cannot "eat" Demons because yeah when a demon dies its physical body collapses into nothing because its forged from Warp energies.
So for Tyranids there's no "food" on those worlds - hence the need for other fleets to predigest worlds for Kronos to keep that fleet functional

2) The idea that all Tyranids so is eat is - flawed logic. The Tyranids are clearly doing more than just eating otherwise they'd be nomming on gas giants, suns and "dead" systems to other factions. Super easy food with zero threat.

To my mind the Tyranids aren't feeding they are securing. That's why they've had massive tendrils strick hard into the Galaxy making a line for key Imperial recruitment worlds for the Space Marines; its why they built a planet sized structure that's casting an insanely huge Shadow in the Warp; its why they have a fleet hunting Demon worlds even though there's no "food" there for them.

Tyranids aren't feeding they are pacifying/removing threat from the Galaxy.

My take is they do this first - destroy any threat so that there's no longer a need to instantly turn biomass into weapons. Once the Galaxy is safe for them they can feed at their own speed and save all the biomass they harvest.

3) I believe they can eat Necrons, heck 3rd edition Codex basically spells out that they can eat anything even mineral content. However they go for biomass because its the most quickly consumed and re-used material. It's "Fast food" for Tyranids. It also is the most readily accessible resource for living factions - basically every faction except Necrons, needs biomass to survive or manifest.

Each world they strip means another world denied to their foes. Even if races recover biomass stripped worlds it takes them ages to rebuild and invest to get resources out of them again.

The nature of the Necron physiology and small arms are also a massive turn off for a Hive Fleet.

Yes. They probably can do something with the mineral content of a Necron’s body.

But what they’re denied is any and all new genetic information. And given a Tomb World might be an otherwise barren rock? In such circumstances, even when victorious? There’s just not enough to gain to make such a consumption worth it.

This is further compounded by the fact that Gauss Weapons (by far the most common type of weapon in Necron forces) atomise the foe. This again reduces the biomass available for reclamation at battles end.

Whichever way you butter it? Fighting Necrons is an uphill battle, both ways for a Hive Fleet. And the Hive Mind will have a harder time creating new adaptations. Even on worlds long since renewed by time and nature where the Tomb is buried deep? If it and its inhabitants are awakened? That’s a horrible foe for the Tyranids to contend with. More so if its already overrun the non-Necron defenders of say, an Imperial World, with the Tinboys getting out of bed for the consumption phase.

Hence there is something to the Kryptman Gambit. The idea was solid. Basically take whatever steps you can to fight off a Hive Fleet Invasion. And if that fails? Destroy the world whilst the ships gather to feed. Then you’re depleting their huge, but still finite numbers, and denying them a chance to restock.

Great idea. Horrible, horrible execution!

Necrons and Demons are both uphill battles for Tyranids as they can't feed to restore numbers. However you have to remember that they are not weak and nor do they rely purely upon numbers in battle.

Plus whilst there's no fresh DNA, the rapid reproduction of Tyranids means they can still evolve at a bonkers rate to deal with a different foe.

Plus the Necrons are a major threat, Tyranids would want to take out those Tomb worlds because they are a risk to them; a risk that is worth investing biomatter from other worlds into tackling. Especially as organised, awakened Necrons become even more deadly. So even leaving sleeping Tomb Worlds is a risk.




As for the Kryptman Gambit - honestly that almost works in the Tyranids favour. Sure it denies them a lot of biomass to stop snowballing into ever a greater threat. However it also denies humanity those same worlds and resources. It's basically a managed retreat, which works only if you can reach a point where you stop retreating. In the case of Kryptman's tactic that point was slamming the Tyranids into a bunch of Orks. Which worked to buy time, but failed because both factions failed to defeat the other but also gained strength from the combat. Tyranids with new strains of effective warriors; Orks because they were having a really good fun time!



Burning worlds in advance of a Hive Fleet might work if you were REALLY fast at doing it when a tendril first appears and is in theory at its weakest point; however you're still sacrificing your own worlds and own powerbase to do so. Plus the hit on moral and politics is huge.

It's basically not a sustainable tactic to dealing with a Tyranid threat.

Remember Tyranids already travelled through the gulf between Galaxies and arrived deadly. Denying them a handful of worlds over a distance that is tiny to them isn't really "starving" them.

Kinda?

The trip to our Galaxy was, presumably, done without molestation, and during hibernation to best preserve available stocks.

But, once you’re up and about and actively digesting planets? Your energy expenditure must surely increase significantly, even if you didn’t need to pacify it first (say an uncolonised but otherwise life supporting planet).

When you’ve had to fight tooth and nail and claw to first pacify the world ready for consumption? An even greater expenditure is first committed to.

If you’re then denied that meal? You may end up on the ropes through the unrewarded effort.

On the upside, if even a modestly sized Hive Ship survives and escapes? Provided it can find a world to consume in peace, it can rebuild its own strength and eventually replace its fallen siblings.

Think of it like a road trip. If I fuel up at the start of my journey, and manage to drive solely on motorways at a pretty constant speed? I get the mileage out of the loaded fuel. But if my destination lies in say, central London? My fuel efficiency rapidly drops thanks to more often having to accelerate and decelerate. And so I may need to fuel up at a shorter total distance travelled compared to if I’d stuck on the motorway.

OK it’s a standard crap analogy from me, but it does hold mostly true. The intergalactic void travel would be the Hive Fleets at peak fuel effiency. But once they’ve arrived? It’s hard work all the way.

The thing is if you just burn worlds in advance then there's no combat to weaken the ships. They just drift past.

You can burn worlds but you have to then engage the fleet heavily. Which to my mind was the weakness in the whole plan. In theory it could work IF you've got enough ships to strike over and over and over again so that you break the Hive Fleet in space and deny it food to rebulid.

But as the tactic showed you can't do that quick enough before the pressure of abandoning worlds gets too great and the hive fleet has pushed too far. Not forgetting that there are many worlds in the Imperium far from the front lines. They are not armoured bastions of war built to withstand massive invasions. Indeed push into the right spots and a hive fleet could hit a series of worlds that are basically entirely undefended from the scale of war that Tyranids can bring. You basically end up with the risk that they push so far into your managed retreat that they break through and feast

Kryptman wasn’t burning the world in advance.

They were defended to draw in as many Tyranid reinforcements as possible, then destroyed once the ships began to feed for maximum attrition.

Yes, the Imperium loses billions of lives (ultimately replaceable) and several worlds (I’m not sure how many, but all ultimately irreplaceable).

But the damage inflicted on the Tyranids was immense, taking out not only unnumbered land side organisms, but massively reducing their locally available interstellar beasties.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
You mentioned Tasteless prey. That's what I always felt like Tyranids must think when they start noshing on Necrons.
.

What? Metal has flavour. We just don’t like it that much as we can’t really do much with it digestion wise. Necrons are made of all kinds of exotic matter that might be total tyranidnip


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also on the eating of stars front, am I right in thinking the hive fleets are sub-light between galaxies? If they are then their approach would be heralded by entire galaxies going dark.

 Flinty wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
You mentioned Tasteless prey. That's what I always felt like Tyranids must think when they start noshing on Necrons.
.

What? Metal has flavour. We just don’t like it that much as we can’t really do much with it digestion wise. Necrons are made of all kinds of exotic matter that might be total tyranidnip


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also on the eating of stars front, am I right in thinking the hive fleets are sub-light between galaxies? If they are then their approach would be heralded by entire galaxies going dark.

I was thinking of the old Necron "phase out" fun.

Necrons would literally be a zero calorie food, as they phase out after you eat them.

Necrons less phase and more teleport. So whilst the food is gone if the Necrons lose entirely the Tyranids just head into the core to feast on the bodies inside the Tombs

Yarp. Though, I’m sure there are background documented instances of Necrons phasing out much further? Interplanetary ranges for certain (in my memory anyways), but not sure on Intersystem.

Definitely can phase out back to any ships that might in orbit. Ships which by their nature are pretty resilient to Tyranid fleet tactics (no squishy crew, overwhelm Rippers with Scarabs, use other Canopteks to hunt down any critters that scuttle off into hard to reach tubes and pipes and that)

I remember in the BFG game that Necron ships would phase out too.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kryptman wasn’t burning the world in advance.

They were defended to draw in as many Tyranid reinforcements as possible, then destroyed once the ships began to feed for maximum attrition.

Yes, the Imperium loses billions of lives (ultimately replaceable) and several worlds (I’m not sure how many, but all ultimately irreplaceable).

But the damage inflicted on the Tyranids was immense, taking out not only unnumbered land side organisms, but massively reducing their locally available interstellar beasties.

Did it? Kryptman ultimately failed at stopping Leviathan while inflicting enough damage on the Imperium that he has been disgraced and excommunicated.

I don't think there is any evidence Kryptman succeed at reducing the Tyranids numbers, only their rate of growth. Specially as in the middle of his plan, Leviathan outright bulldozed over a major Forge World, shrugging of a whole arsenal of DAoT weapons and ships in the process.

He inflicted sufficiently one sided losses that the Hive Fleet diverted into Octavius, tying up both said Hive Fleet, and the Orks of that region.

Of course, whatever comes out of that war as the victor is going to be rock. But, had Kryptman not fallen foul of his peers? The theory was the Imperium had been bought plenty of time to reinforce that region, ready to repel the eventual victor.

Kinda hard to reinforce that region when the industrial hearth of that region, Forge World Gryphonne IV, was lost in the process. Nor I would call losing a Major Forge World plus who knows how many other worlds, countless warships and trillions of lives "sufficiently one sided losses". It wasn't a free action, IoM did suffer crippling loses in the process.

And while Leviathan was diverted, now it has almost won Octarius and is even stronger than it used to be and thus the forces needed to reinforce the region are even greater. Kryptman successfully bought time but at the cost of weakening the IoM in the region and eventually an even stronger Leviathan and the rest of the Inquisition is really wondering if it was worth it.

Also note that the Imperium's dogma on technology means that losing a Forge World is something they just can't recover from. There will be technologies lost there which they simply cannot recreate again. Not to mention its raw manufacturing capabilities in the first place.


The Tyranids meanwhile its clear that destroying one hive fleet, or even whole tendril still leaves the others fully operational.



The other thing is the Imperium has no understanding of how important a Hive Fleet is to the Tyranids at large. They've no idea if these are the remnants of a vast race at their weakest point; or the advanced vanguard of a larger force; or the random whisps of invasion; etc....
There's no way to know from a fundamental level how much a hive fleet loss costs the Tyranids.

You know with other factions, within reason, how much something is worth when its lost. With that rough idea you've at least got grounds to balance a response and cost out what's the best option.



If you knew a hive fleet was the last one and there were no more in the black of space; then yes you could easily justify sacrificing many worlds to defeat it.
But if there's a risk that its just a scouting party; that its just one of a hundreds or thousands now suddenly the whole cost-benefit changes. Now losing any worlds is a huge cost because you know there's more to come so your tactics must change least you be overwhelmed

Right. But Kryptman’s actions aren’t the proximate cause of that.

Just did a quick bit of reading, and it seems he asked the Forgeworld to follow his plan, but they refused. Leviathan was already on the way.

The refusal to do A Kryptman meant more biomass for Leviathan. Had they blown the planet as well, significant losses would’ve been inflicted.

There is also the "geographic" issue of the IoM not being one solid continuous territory but a web of sub-sectors connected by warp routes spread by an area the Imperium doesn't control.

Any quarantine attempt runs into the issue that the Tyranids can divert towards the nearest non-Imperial world (potentially outside the reach of charted warp routes) to quickly refuel.

For a quarantine to truly work you would need help of xenos like Eldar and Necrons that can each worlds the IoM cannot, this cannot be an entirely human enterprise, quarantines only work if they are collective efforts (which we should all be well aware of given the whole COVID we just went through).

Tyranids are about the only faction everyone will join up against.


Even Chaos has an actual reason to ally with non-chaos forces to combat Tyranids.



Reminds me of when GW went heavy on having allies in armies and everyone was teaming up with half and half and then Tyranids were out there on their own without a single ally. This was in the pre genestealer cults days.