What: Mega Mat; a series of themed, full color 4’x6’ (and 4x4’ with stretch goals) tabletop gaming mats that don't crease and resist stains, ready to play out of the box. The first two Mega Mat design prototypes--Grassy Plains and Blast Zone--are done and in our hands! We have plans to unlock Urban, Snow, and Desert themed Mega Mat designs in 4x6' and 4x4' sizes with stretch goals!
Where: Worldwide shipping* available.
When: Kickstarter to fund in December 2013, early bird products to ship in February 2014, second production run to ship in March 2014 with additional production runs to ship monthly, thereafter. Pledge early to get yours first!
Why: Because a beautiful, portable, gaming mat ready to play out of the box that doesn't crease and is liquid resistant wouldn’t just be a mat, it’d be a Mega Mat, Boom!
What we've got are 2 prototypes, in our store and being played on! Help us fund and unlock all of the Mega Mat designs!
Big News!
We've lowered the funding tier to unlock Grassy Plains and Blast Zone in 4x4' sizes! It is a bit of a risk but we think that with our momentum we will hit it and want to get those smaller sized mats out to you all! At $40K we will unlock the first two, at $45K we will unlock the other three! Pitch in if you would like to see those mats happen!
The wait is over, Urban Combat is here! This Mega Mat is sure to be very popular. It is extremely detailed, these pictures are only at a quarter resolution. At full res, you can actually read the headlines on the newspapers that litter the battlefield! There are all manor of characterful images such as burning flares, tread marks, cracked cement, etc. that bring the scene to life and add a new level of immersion to your games!
This Mega Mat is not only good looking, but extremely functional. It allows you to place buildings in a number of locations where they will be framed by the streets and sidewalks. Also, the graphics on the mat can be used as areas of terrain themselves or they can be covered by buildings or other pieces of terrain to alter the way it looks! We designed it so that you could alter the placement of buildings and terrain on the mat so that the layout of the city would change from game to game. You can for example, cover the park areas to have a totally urban environment, or leave some or all of them exposed to mix it up. This allows a lot of variety in game play. As soon as possible, we will post pics with buildings on an actual mat as this one really comes to life with terrain on it, it looks smashing when set up!
The streets are wide enough for 28mm tank vehicles to move along and look like they fit properly, and the sidewalks also, are scaled for infantry sized 28mm models.
We've also put visual indicators on the Urban Combat mat to show you where deployment zones are for popular wargames. See if you can spot them all! Also, please note that the "Urban Combat" Watermarks on the image are not on the actual gaming mat, and the Frontline Gaming and Tablewar logos pictures on the sample images are shown to watermark the images and do not appear on the actual gaming mat as shown in the images.
We think you'll be thrilled with the Urban Combat Mega Mat as we are! We can't wait to get a game in on this bad boy.
Logo scale comparison pics.
4x4' Alpine!
4x4' Barren Wasteland
4x4'
4x4' Grassy Plains
Geoff "InControl" Robinson of StarCraft 2 fame and GorkaMorker play a test game on our new Mega Mat gaming mats! Check out our KickStarter and support the cause if you think we have a cool series of products!
*This product not to be confused with any other Mega Mat product. This product will be delivered and sold under a different name after KickStarter funds.
We're pumped, too! Can't wait to see it if works, really exciting and a little scary, too!
@BarBoBot
Thanks! Yeah, we've been working on this for a while and we're stoked to finally get it ready to rock!
@Cyporiean
That price includes shipping which is a pretty big chunk of it. It is a very durable product, very high quality and it is a bit heavy. I don't think you'll find anything else like it, it is a very quality piece of kit and we got the best price we could on it.
We have already been to the Factory, seen what their production capabilities are, have a schedule for production and shipping. TableWar, our partner, has 3 years manufacturing experience and a successful KS already under their belt. Basically, this isn't our first rodeo =)
We are very prepared for this to be a mild or wild success!
We have to push the KS at this time of year because we want to have them before the LVO if at all possible. If possible, we would like to have the product on the tables at our tournament!
MSRP not determined yet but the price on KS includes shipping so will be in that ballpark shipped within the USA.
@BarBoBot
Yeah, ideally this would have launched not over the holidays but we think it could make a really nice Christmas of Black Friday gift!
Timing was important on this one so we pushed ahead!
We have already been to the Factory, seen what their production capabilities are, have a schedule for production and shipping. TableWar, our partner, has 3 years manufacturing experience and a successful KS already under their belt. Basically, this isn't our first rodeo =)
We are very prepared for this to be a mild or wild success!
We have to push the KS at this time of year because we want to have them before the LVO if at all possible. If possible, we would like to have the product on the tables at our tournament!
MSRP not determined yet but the price on KS includes shipping so will be in that ballpark shipped within the USA.
I wasn't implying you (or the product) was going to be fly-by-night, I just wasn't sure if you were thinking if doing a one-off run or... What. Sorry if it came off otherwise. I backed TableWar's KS and I'm thinking about this one.
I think it'd be awesome if you had them at the LVO - great idea.
I'm currently backing the G&G boards, but you have me thinking hard about switching.
Sweeet! Doug and I played a quick game in China on the MegaMat(tm) while Reece was still on the airplane back home. It was amazing! Set-up was a snap, it looked beautiful, dice rolled perfectly, etc. Of course, Doug destroyed me.
Cheers, T
I'm currently backing the G&G boards, but you have me thinking hard about switching.
Same here...I was hoping the price between this and G&G would have some separation and make my choose easier. Now, if this one gets a terrain add-on that I really like, I might have an easier time choosing...
No worries, I didn't take it as a slight. We plan on this being a product we sell indefinitely and continue to add on to as we go with new mats and accessories! Assuming people want it, of course.
Yeah, it would be stellar to have these at LVO if we can swing it.
@Space Monk
Thanks!
@Conker249
Awesome, thanks!
@T'Lander
Yeah, i am jealous you guys got to play on it before I did!
@H.B.M.C.
We get killed on shipping to Oz. We're working on setting up distribution there now, if that works out, we will pass the savings on but we don't want to say that and not be able to deliver.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @TomJoad
Both good choices for sure!
The nice thing about this is it takes 0 effort, haha, you open the box, flop it on the table and you're ready to play! Sooo easy and fun, too.
I know how you feel but trust me, this writing is TINY! Doug and I explicitly said it must be unobtrusive, but we also had to put our logo on it, I hope you can understand. Honestly, the logos are very small, they won't interrupt the game for most folks.
Watch the video on the KS! We do a liquid test on it!
Basically these are extremely water resistant. They are heat and pressure treated with a water resistant coating. Liquids essentially roll right off of them with almost no trace left behind, it's pretty rad!
I know how you feel but trust me, this writing is TINY! Doug and I explicitly said it must be unobtrusive, but we also had to put our logo on it, I hope you can understand. Honestly, the logos are very small, they won't interrupt the game for most folks.
You could have used a label/tag, or a removable sticker. Anything rather than actually printing on the mat.
Just read your article on BoLS. Since you're manufacturing in China, wouldn't it make sense to offer shipping options from China too? Maybe your friend Todd could help. Not necessarily drop shipping options (which would be expensive for the volumes you're looking at) but even something as pedestrian as China's postal service would be cheaper for your overseas backers than shipping the lot over to the States and then shipping it out again by USPS or courier.
A sticker would be a whole extra production line, and that would add more $$$ to the production costs. Labels printed onto the mat are an issue, but if they're doing a small one it shouldn't be a problem.
Very, very minor edge distortion over many years of use (and that is mouse-pad use, where your wrist tends to rub the same spot a lot) but in general the quality of products several years old was still excellent (we checked samples). No curling.
@Angryboy2K
A sticker would fall off and look shoddy to most people and as H.B.M.C. stated, would require an entirely new production run. Honestly, the logo is minor, no kidding. If you hate it, that is a bummer, but there's nothing to be done about it at this point.
We could ship locally, that is something we can consider but logistics, and labor involved with keeping track of that is not entirely in our hands, freight is handled by a third party at the manufacturer and as such, we would have to issue special instructions or have an agent of ours (Todd) there to handle it personally.
For a single order it really doesn't make sense, but if we get a decent volume or orders in the area that can be served by Chinese post, then we'd love to save you guys and gals some money, for sure.
@Garner
Thanks! We appreciate it!
@Moopy
Thank you, sir! And just wait till the 'Urban Combat' mat is unlocked, it looks slick! I think it will be the most popular. The 'Alpine' mat has gotten super popular response too (snow themed) so we'll see!
I have absolutely no problem with the "Branding" on the edge.
Besides, how often do you use the 10cm of the very edge of a board?
And if it is that terrible...well you mentioned stickers..perhaps you can get a sticker that looks like a bush or something and sticker over it if it breaks your suspension of disbelief. Or a bit of terrain.
I know how you feel but trust me, this writing is TINY! Doug and I explicitly said it must be unobtrusive, but we also had to put our logo on it, I hope you can understand.
Nope. Absolutely nope. For $95 I expect it to look better than green felt and with the printed text/logos it certainly is not better. The Sabol Designs mats had the EXACT same problem. Indeed these mats you claim to be unique to the market are about 5 years late: the Sabol Designs combat mat was nearly the exact same idea in the exact same material that you are selling, but only cost $65. Instead of high-res art they were actually high-res aerial photos printed on the mousemat material and everyone was REALLY excited for them too until we got them and realized the text in the images was not a watermark but actually printed on the mat itself. The text completely ruined those mats, we just couldn't sell them at our shop because of it and got stuck with 5 of our initial order of 6, the one that "sold" was to one of our former employees for a hefty discount. Why on earth would I pay that much for a high-detail printed surface just to have to stare at your logo every single game I ever use it on?
For the same cost I can get a plastic Games & Gears board. For $10 I can get a green blanket and airbrush some brown areas on it. Until recently I could get GWs fantastic Citadel Gaming Mat for $40. Your mats are interesting, but WAY too expensive if they're going to be permanently branded.
Very very cool. Maybe a little higher than I would have thought pricewise (Games and Gears doing prepainted 3D boards for $100 right now... tough to see this at the same price).
I'll wait and see on the urban combat mat... but definitely watching this closely
A sticker would fall off and look shoddy to most people and as H.B.M.C. stated, would require an entirely new production run. Honestly, the logo is minor, no kidding. If you hate it, that is a bummer, but there's nothing to be done about it at this point.
Well, I'd hope it WOULD fall off. Preferably when I came to remove it.
Obviously I'm beating a dead horse at this point; your design is finalized and all that... But I wonder WHY you said you "have to" have your logo on it. Is it to prevent copying? Wouldn't it be a simple matter for someone to cut it off and upscale the remainder if they wanted to copy it without your logo?
Ah well. The last time I had this kind of discussion on Dakka there seemed to be plenty of people satisfied with spending their money on mats with a logo on them despite the fact that it sort of negates the point of spending money on a realistic mat in the first place. While I'm sure you realize as well as I do that you can't (and indeed shouldn't try to) please all of the people all of the time, deliberately flawing your product like this from the get-go doesn't make sense to me. The people who don't care about the logo will buy one without a logo for sure, while the people who are anal about it will only give you your money if you remove the damn thing. All you do is reduce your potential market with no tangible upside.
We could ship locally, that is something we can consider but logistics, and labor involved with keeping track of that is not entirely in our hands, freight is handled by a third party at the manufacturer and as such, we would have to issue special instructions or have an agent of ours (Todd) there to handle it personally.
For a single order it really doesn't make sense, but if we get a decent volume or orders in the area that can be served by Chinese post, then we'd love to save you guys and gals some money, for sure.
I wasn't really thinking of it for the odd order, but rather for ALL non-US orders. I'm pretty sure Chinese shipping costs are lower than US international shipping costs. What I'm saying is it's worth comparing the following two logistics chains:
1. Ship a single crate to the US
=> ship out to customers (international and domestic)
2. Separate international/domestic (US) orders
a. => Ship out crate to US with domestic orders
=> Ship out to customers
b. => Ship out international orders direct from China
Even with additional labor costs to pass on to your backers, option 2 could work out cheaper.
Not having had the sound turned on while watching the video, I may have missed something related to this, but if your mats are crease-proof you should fold them for shipping. I believe a lot of countries will cause you additional expense/headaches with tubes.
I've been trying to convince game publishers for years that, for some games, dye sublimated neoprene is the way to go to print boards to play games on.
I have a few that I have had done at considerable expense for rethemed board games.
Really glad to see more and more people comng round to the idea.
I can see a market for specific types of terrain.
Starfield comes readily to mind, as does a more urban textures graphic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as much as I like the lighter 1mm gauge neoprene, the edge distortion gets bad if it isn't really stored well. the thicker guage I haven't had any problems with on my oldest board which is 5 years old now.
Yeah, it's tiny, I'll post a size comparison so people can get a feel for the scale of it.
@Joyboozer
We lowered shipping to Oz and NZ. We'll eat it a bit on shipments to Perth and Cairns and such, but we want you guys to be able to get them if you want without paying through the nose! As stated, we're working on a distribution point in Oz and it looks solid, so long as we have volume to send at least a pallet to Oz to make it worthwhile, we will do so and pass the savings on to you all!
And yes on Swamps, I had the same idea! If it is popular, we have a ton of cool ideas for future designs!
@Lobukia
Yeah, the price is higher than we would have wanted but it is a very, very good quality product and we got the best price we could after a lot of shopping. It's one of those things that once you have it in your hands you see how bad ass it is! Not putting any other similar style deals down at all though, they all have cool things about them, too. We just think ours has some stand out features like ease of transportation and use, etc. plus proof of concept and just beautiful colors that make them stand out.
@angryboy2K
Haha, I know the feeling, I got a Sabol mat years ago (still have it and we use it on our shop, actually) and I hated the giant logo. That's why we made ours small. I will post a scale pic so you can see. We wanted to brand it for marketing purposes. Lots of people will see it and that is good for our business.
No hard feelings though, and you have every right to voice your opinion, no hard feelings here. If you search articles in Dakka, I wrote the review on the Sabol mat and said a lot of the same things! haha
As for the other part of your post, thanks for the good ideas.
I honestly can't answer that. I don't know what it costs to ship in China. We are currently in the process of setting up European and Australian distribution points and if that pans out, we will be able to dramatically lower shipping costs. But, we will look into China shipping internationally and see if that is cheaper. That may be a good leas.
As for the package size, it's not different on post for the most part, they largely go on weight and general dimensions.
@Kalamadea
Sigh. Hahaha, thanks for the sunny disposition and positive attitude!
For one, I am very, very familiar with the Sabol mats. I have one in our shop, right now. i also wrote the Dakka review on that very product on this site, which you can look up.
Two, our logo and theirs are NOTHING comparable in size, please reference the below picture.
Third, their product has been OOP for years.
Fourth, they are similar in concept, but dramatically different in material. The Sabol mat is high density carpet, has hairs all over it that catch models, curls at the ends and, the high resolution image actually contrasts rather starkly with minis. I know because I have had one for YEARS hahaha, check half our video bat reps, you will see mine. Our product is a much nicer material, sits flat, is smooth, and has more vibrant, mini friendly colors. And no, hahaha, ours look nothing like painted felt. Look at the pictures of the close up images and you can see how much detail is there.
But hey, don't let me interrupt your uninformed tirade
Sorry to be rude in response to your rudeness, but you are way off and I am sure you can imagine that if this were your proejct you invested so heavily in terms of time, energy and money into, you would understand.
Here is a pic so you can see I know exactly what I am talking about.
The product is too expensive and we wanted to keep it very simple. You do get discounts for additional product ordered.
And glad you like the look of them!
@Hellfury
Thanks!
And yes, we considered a number of gauges. We were going to go with 2.5mm because it was seriously beefy but shipping got too crazy. We decided to go slightly lighter and we have noticed no loss in durability. The 1mm was just too thin and you could see bumps under the table and such.
We feel really confident in this product and think it has a lot of potential. Once people see it in real life, it will make a big difference too, we just have to get the ball rolling!
Also, really happy that the Aussie prices will reduce to $40.00. Depending on the designs I might be actually able to accept the postage costs.
Am I correct in reading it that each mat will cost an additional $40.00? I was hoping to get a few of my club to buy up together to see if we could reduce the cost but, if that is the case then it might not be possible.
Looks interesting, but the timing is awful. The price doesn't compare all that well to the G&G boards or the Tablescapes.
If this were ending next year, I might have come on board anyway, but with the shipping to Oz, the timing and the competition I just can't do it. But best of luck to you guys.
If you guys do a bulk order, hit me up on PM and we will see if we can work something out to hook you guys up! I know how lame shipping costs down under are and we'll try to work with you to get you guys sorted out.
And yes, haha, I wrote that review many moons ago!
I don't get the issue with the logo - is it printed in one corner, each corner our repeatedly printed along the edges? I'm presuming it's in one corner from the pictures, surely that's pretty unobtrusive and you could cover it with a well placed piece of scenery / tape measure / blast template / rulebook...
Seriously though, if you had created this product wouldn't you want some sort of representation of your company to advertise it to potential buyers? We all walk round with branded clothes, bags, watches, etc
Ruglud, I can only speak for myself, but I spend many many hours of my life trying to make models and terrain look as real as possible. I don't then want to see any form of advertising on the playing surface. Kind of destroys the illusion.
I appreciate that the manufacturer wants to brand it. Don't see why they couldn't have put a giant logo on the storage sleeve instead though. If I'm paying a hundred bucks for a playing surface, I want it to be immersive and realistic. I don't want to be constrained where I can put scenery to hide logos.
Different strokes for different folks. If we were all the same, the world would be pretty dull.
Fair play Egg, I understand your reasoning on this.
I'm a 'throw down a plain vinyl table cover and get going' type of gamer, but I do always drool over the utlra realistic battlefields I see on here and at the conventions...
Spoiler:
There was another battlefield table cover that went the KS route a few months back (also launched by a Dakka user) . I don't recall that being branded and it was a hard, foldable option rather than a rollable mat, but hopefully he'll be going retail next year with it. If you didn't see it PM me and I'll send you a link. Idon't want to openly advertise another product here, hence the spoiler
Bung me the link! I'm planning my own homemade system at the minute, but it'll be a while before it's done. I could use something decent to play on in the meantime.
- Love the Mantic rubber mousemat mats, so this is definitely a good material.
- Price point seems about right, it's very close to what Mantic was charging for a 6x4 in the DZ KS, $15 cheaper for US customers in fact.
- EU Distributor means no customs fees, right? Nice.
Other points:
- Logo is a pain in the arse, but I can paint over it so not too bothered. Reconsider that if you can, because realistically speaking, no customer is going to want it, the best you can hope is for them to tolerate it. At worst it's a dealbreaker and a lost sale.
This isn't something like a gaming case where a logo is fine and doesn't hamper the form or function of the case in any way, we are buying the grassy surface mat for the sole purpose of creating a surface that looks like a grassy mat, that is the entire point of spending the money in the first place, not "create a grassy surface with a logo on it", and not "create a grassy surface with an ugly splotch of green paint in the corner where we've had to paint over the logo". It makes the product look more crap by directly damaging the reason why you bought it in the first place, and to be honest, buying from a company that deliberately lowers the quality of their product for a marketing gimmick is less appealing to me than a company that puts the preferences of its paying customers first and foremost with zero exceptions.
- With the grassy board I feel like the render surface could be improved a lot, it doesn't look very natural or varied, it just looks like a basic uniform brown dirt with clumps of bright green... not enough variation in coverage, too much of a sharp contrast, no "patchy areas" of coverage, no variation in the colour or type of ground cover.
It would be much better to rework the grassy texture to be more granulated and varied, rather than "clumpy"... there's lots of natural references you can use, such as the foreground of this:
There are parts where the board does a great job of this texture, but other parts where the bare earth is far too saturated and goes from an area of lush greenery to an area of barren orange-looking dirt without much of transition... I kinda feel like replacing the bare dirt with more areas of semi-patchy coverage would look better and look more realistic rather than patchwork.
Also, I don't think I'd go for the crater mat simply because it's 3d texture represented on a 2d plane (can't think of any way to fix that though). Doesn't quite work for me, would definitely be more interested in a really nice desert mat for sci-fi.
Good luck! Looking forward to this one doing well, we need something like this on the market now that GW has stopped selling their battlemat.
P.S. Just wondering, how are the mats for gluing stuff to? Would it be possible to glue some static grass or even sand to the mats to get some texture on there?
Also, any plans for 4x4, 3x3, 2x2 mats?
Ruglud wrote: I don't get the issue with the logo - is it printed in one corner, each corner our repeatedly printed along the edges? I'm presuming it's in one corner from the pictures, surely that's pretty unobtrusive and you could cover it with a well placed piece of scenery / tape measure / blast template / rulebook...
Or trim like an inch off that edge.
I've never played on a table where the corners haven't had rulebooks and dice on them anyway (and almost never any figures), so there's no additional hit to realism. Huge logo's maybe, but this one is like 10x150mm and will disappear under a squad of infantry.
I would've been all over this if I hadn't I just pledged/purchased a Warboard on kickstarter a few weeks ago! These look really good and that's exactly what I was after, something to pull out and play on.
Agreed that it would have been better to leave off the logo, though... that's a legitimate feedback and should be an easy change since you've only had a few samples made. It just tips it from being expensive but 100% totally awesome, to 95% awesome. It does seem to be a common (and the only, other than the understandable cost) criticism, so worth considering, at least!
Any chance of a "pick up at Cons" shipping option, if shipping is a big driver in the cost?
Nice, just noticed that there's a 4'x4' size listed if this gets big enough!
However, also noticed this on the main page:
We have already contracted the factory to enable the larger sized 4x6’ sized “jig” to cut the mats. We will continue to refine the current designs of the ‘Grassy Plains’ and the ‘Blast Zone’.
That certainly implies that the designs are still being finished / are not yet finalized, and so if you wanted to the logo could be removed.
There are lots of places you can place logos, heck, all over the tube it comes in, which most gamers will keep to transport it . Just a thought, from the feedback here it seems like it would be a very popular move!
It might not be to a lot of people, but I just thought I'd mention it since it clearly bothered some. It only bothers me a little bit, but it'd certainly be nicer without it and it seems the option still exists to remove it!
It can be plastered over everything else, though, I'd gladly pimp a tube with Frontline / TableWar on it. I actually think an included sticker might make it's way onto gamer bags, etc. Just a thought, it's obviously your call to make! But for instance on a 4x4 starfield, if you got far enough to offer such a mat, I think it would probably stand out a bit to me.
I've been excited about this since I heard the rumor of it coming earlier this week!
I've signed up for the grassy plains.
Is there a way to guarantee which unlock we could get? I really like the idea of the getting the cityscape map - but I'm not so keen on the alpine map.
How does this product do with curved edging typical in other gaming mats that roll up for storage? Or will I need to find a way to 'anchor' the edges...and if so...will the center buldge when I do so?
I haver to admit, it would have to be perfect to compete with other quick playing surfaces out there at that price point and with a logo in the corner.
Thanks for the help!
Super excited about these if they'll pan out! Probably more interested with stretch goals though.
Looks good, and my love of InControl nearly sold me on it alone, but having just spent a simply staggering amount on Kickstarter recently and with the holidays looming, I don't think I can justify another $120'ish on a mat, amazing as it appears to be.
Kirasu wrote: What are the benefits of these mats over my current Zuzzy mats (Don't say "rubbery smell" because mine are years old and have lost that long ago)
The question isn't meant to be confrontational, I'm just curious because my favorite part of the hobby is the look of the battlefields.
I am wondering the same thing here. Not to plug the competition but their mats are textured and cheaper without a logo. I am always looking for new gaming surfaces as well, add me into the group that is really against the logo!
Did you actually look st the scale shots or just jump straight into hate mode? Because that's what usually happens here.
Like many have already said, its tiny. And ive never played a game where the corñers /edges werent either flat out ignored, or covered by rulebooks. Hell, I'd just plop my Manticore over it. She never moves anyway.
The whole "suspension of disbelief" arguement is hogwash also. Tiny logo is going to break it for you? What about the 200lb nerd across the table from you? Or the dice?
Ive played games with coke bottles and magazines for terrain, yet you complain about a gorgeous printed mat over a teensy logo?
The gripe I have here is the price, the only valid complaint I see to make. Since its basically the same cost as G&G plastic board.
People like you are why Finecast and PVC miniatures exist. People who are satisfied with mediocrity.
Does the logo add to the gaming experience? No? Then get rid of it.
You don't care? Good for you. Others do. We've expressed our dismay while the product is still at the pre-production stage, while there's still a chance of altering it. If we can't change the creator's mind, at least we'll have tried; we then get the option of voting with our wallets. Comments like yours and the other guy somewhere above you don't add any value to the discussion, unless you happen to like having the logo on your game mat.
So what is it with the shiping costs and distribution.
Will there be a European distributor for kickstarter products?
Will it still be 15$ extra postage (per mat or per order)?
What the heck is up with the logo hate? Look at the image again.
Spoiler:
Its looks to be 3 inches across and 1/8 inch tall. That's a total square area of 0.375 inches.
The entire mat is 60" by 48", or 2880" total.
That's 0.013% of the total area! That's like saying your car manufacture's logo on your automobile is a deal breaker.
Your not obliged to buy anything in a capitalistic society. That's one of the best things about living in one, we vote with our dollar.
However, if your using logo hate as your excuse, there is probably another reason.
At the time of this writing, me and 99 other people are very excited about this mat. The kickstarter has been active for less than two days and 1/4 of the February ones are gone. If your on the fence and want one early, I suggest getting one now before the February ones are gone.
These look really nice - I'm pledged in for one mat - but I'll say I'm really here for the Cityscape mat as that's the kind of detail I'm too lazy & unskilled to make & paint on a full board myself. So hoping that gets unlocked!
Guys, most people giving feedback about the logo have been very polite. If it doesn't bother you, that's fine, but it's totally valid for others to disagree with you.
I'm in the middle- I don't like the logo there, but it's not a huge deal. It is easy to fix, though- this isn't a preorder, it's a kickstarter and I pasted the text above where they said it is still being finalized.
The fact is, the long logo on the Sabol mat bothered people a LOT. If it didn't bother you, great, but it was an issue for many. Thus, it just makes sense that this logo will still bother some people. It's easy to change now, so it would make sense to do it, imo. If not, no worries, some folks will just go for alternatives without a logo if it's an issue to them.
But the only nerd rage I see is folks demanding that the logo bother no one
It is so small, no one playing on it has even noticed it. Not one, single person in the shop has noticed the logo unless we point it out to them. But different stroked for different folks, of course.
The designs are done, we are not removing the logo. Very sorry if that is a deal breaker for a few of you.
How does this compare to a Zuzzy?
A Zuzzy is latex rubber. It can tear quite easily and I frequently see that occur. Not putting it down, it is a nice product. You also have to paint it. Ours, you do not.
Ours is thicker and heavier which means you can lay it over a slightly uneven surface and you are less likely to see imperfections under the mat.
Ours also includes shipping! That is a decent chunk of the price.
You can buy a mat now to get in on the first shipment, and as designs get unlocked, you can switch to another style! So it is better to pledge early to ensure your spot in the first shipment!
Dude, guys, hahaha, please don't get a flame war going on this thread. We really appreciate both sides of the argument but I think the points have been made and it distracts other readers that want to know about the mat.
Reecius wrote: Dude, guys, hahaha, please don't get a flame war going on this thread.
This.
I've deleted some of the flamier posts so please consider that a public warning. It's okay to criticize a product but sniping back and forth and getting personal is not okay. Please remember, we're just here to have a merry old time talking about toy soldiers. Thanks!
Reecius, could you just clarify then- is the below info on the front page wrong, as it says the designs are still being refined?
We will continue to refine the current designs of the ‘Grassy Plains’ and the ‘Blast Zone’.
Or if they're done, maybe this was just old info, or is referring to something other than the print?
The logo is NOT a dealbreaker for me, I'm just asking . The only reason I haven't pledged yet is that, like I said, I just paid for the recent Warboard kickstarter with a similar grassy battlefield design, so I'm waiting on that. I'm sure this will do well though, already 2/3 of the way to funding!
Reecius wrote: Holy smokes, hahahaha, guys, the logo is TINY!
How does this compare to a Zuzzy?
A Zuzzy is latex rubber. It can tear quite easily and I frequently see that occur. Not putting it down, it is a nice product. You also have to paint it. Ours, you do not.
Ours is thicker and heavier which means you can lay it over a slightly uneven surface and you are less likely to see imperfections under the mat.
Ours also includes shipping! That is a decent chunk of the price.
You can buy a mat now to get in on the first shipment, and as designs get unlocked, you can switch to another style! So it is better to pledge early to ensure your spot in the first shipment!
Thanks for the support guys!
All fair points in comparison to Zuzzy. I don't understand the logo rage, but whatever people usually get pissed off at the tiniest things to justify NOT buying something that they probably weren't going to buy anyway. I wish I could get a lot of things without logos but I try to live in the real world, thus logos are here to stay.
I do like the grasslands and the later designs so I'll most likely pledge to this. Games and Gears stuff is cool and all, but I have plenty of flat tables and terrain so roll out boards are very useful.
The designs are done but the artists, being artists, keep tweaking them. The detail on the files are crazy. Could we take the logo off? Yes, but we're not =) What I mean is that the designs we want to start are done. The logo let's people know who made them, etc. And I swear, it is TINY. Most folks don't even notice it.
@Orlando
The first two designs that we have now, already are ready to print. and we don't want conflicting images and products. It will get confusing, we have to order different runs and prints at the manufacturer. We want them all to have a uniform element.
@Kirasu
Yeah, the Zuzzy is cool, I like it, ours is just significantly different in a number of ways.
And yeah, that is my sentiment, too in terms of people getting mad. Some people are reasonable about their beef which I am all ears too, some are just being negative which I largely ignore as like you said, they weren't going to buy anyway.
Glad you like it! This is going to be a nice and easy, portable product that will be easy get around and is different enough to serve a different need!
Kroothawk wrote: So what is it with the shiping costs and distribution.
Will there be a European distributor for kickstarter products?
Will it still be 15$ extra postage (per mat or per order)?
pretre wrote: I really don't see why the logo is such a big deal...
For some people it isn't. For others it's a big deal or a dealbreaker.
I'll extrapolate that the people who don't mind the logo being there would also be perfectly fine if it were not there...
The tradeoff that they are taking is advertising/potential future sales versus people who would buy it but now won't. Also, as others have said, the logo could just as easily be on the packaging (a roll?) and people who own them are often capable of anwsering the question "hey, where did you get that?"
So they're choosing to lose confirmed customers now and in the future (note the retailer's experience in this thread) because of potential theoretical future sales and because Branding - despite the fact that there is nothing else exactly like this out there at the moment.
FWIW, I personally don't mind a small unobtrusive logo like theirs, but I can absolutely see where others might. I also like the look of the product - but I'm out of this anyway due to the shipping costs to AU and the timing (enough with the fething Kickstarters ending on Christmas, guys!)
Ours also includes shipping! That is a decent chunk of the price.
Out of interest, is that decent chunk of the price which is built into the mats to ship to US backers also being put towards shipping to AU/NZ/etc? Because often in KS and even retail, that subsidised or "free" shipping gets ignored for overseas customers and instead we end up paying full shipping costs without even getting the few bucks off shipping that would be spent on locals. It's good to see the AU shipping price dropped from $60 to $40, and I suspect that you've done some of that there - though it's sadly still too much to get on board with.
You might want to get in contact with these guys. http://www.thecombatcompany.com/ I know they're doing distribution for Secret Weapon Tablescapes (getting Aussies free shipping) and possibly the Games & Gears guys as well (not 100% on that one).
Tell 'em I sent you.
On your podcast, you mentioned that some of the mats will have lines that line up with certain deployment types. I assume this means Dawn of War and Hammer & Anvil, but is there any way that you'll be able to include, if nothing else, some hash marks for where Vanguard Strike deployment zones belong? That would be a much bigger utility, for 40K players that is, than the other (easier to measure) deployments.
The mat I'd most be interested in going for would potentially be the urban mat, but I have a question/suggestion. I'm pretty sure I already know the answer, but I wanted to bring it up.
From your video where you briefly mention the roads on the urban mat, I'm guessing you've already finalized the art for it? Because from what you said about the roads basically also doubling as a marker for the deployment zone in a 'popular miniatures game' it sounds like you have the roads basically running parallel to the long board edges about 12" from the edge.
If that's the case, then I'm guessing any 'grid' pattern you have created by the roads on the mat would basically be parallel/perpendicular to the edges of the table...which if you then set up buildings to match the roads you essentially get a grid that is 'in line' with the table.
I would beg/urge you to consider making the roads not run parallel and perpendicular to the edges, but rather make them run 'diagonally' so that if buildings are placed lined up with the printed roads that they are askew compared to the board edges.
I make this plea for two reasons:
1) 'skewed' city terrain (where the 'roads' do not run parallel and perpendicular to the board edges) creates a much better game experience. Because most games have you deploy either along the long or short board edges, when the grid pattern of all the buildings is parallel/perpendicular to the board edges, it means that right from deployment your guys have firing lanes (the roads) that run from one side of the board to the other, so without ever having to move they already have commanding firing positions.
When the city's grid pattern is skewed (so that it isn't parallel/perpendicular to the board edges) the 'firing' lanes created by the roads do not run directly across the table, but instead are diagonal (to the right and left) of where your opponent is deploying. That means players actually need to move to grab the most important firing lanes instead of being able to just deploy right into the best position.
2) Every single piece of modular terrain that contains roads, makes those roads run in a grid that is parallel/perpendicular to the board edges, because they want to give players the maximum amount of flexibility about how they can rearrange their city tiles to come up with different configurations, which means all the roads on those modular tiles basically has to leave running 'straight off' the edge of the tile. That makes every single one of those options a standard grid that as I've explained above is actually an inferior set-up for miniature gaming where players deploy along a board edge.
In your situation, since the road pattern is 'fixed' across the whole board, you have the unique opportunity really to buck the trend and make a table where the grid pattern is askew from the table edges, and thereby create city terrain set-ups that are actually superior to what you get using modular urban terrain tiles.
I know it is already probably to late to make this change (even if you agree with me), but I have to put it out there because it would make me an instant pledger. Because I actually already own plenty of 'table surface' for my gaming, but my modular terrain with roads on it has exactly the issue I've described above (it creates 'boring' cities where the roads run parallel/perpendicular to the board edges) that I hate. I would love, love, love to have a urban mat that was designed with an 'askew' road pattern, and I think other people would quickly grow to love it even if they didn't realize immediately why it is so superior to the 'standard' city table design.
Reecius wrote: Holy smokes, hahahaha, guys, the logo is TINY!
It is so small, no one playing on it has even noticed it. Not one, single person in the shop has noticed the logo unless we point it out to them. But different stroked for different folks, of course.
The designs are done, we are not removing the logo. Very sorry if that is a deal breaker for a few of you.
I'll make a final comment, Reecius, and then I'll back out.
I don't need one of these mats right now. I especially don't need to pay the shipping costs from the States when I live right next door to where you're manufacturing them and I'd rather wait to see if I can get them from a (possibly local) retailer at a discount, but to avoid accusations of being "one of those guys" (you know, the type with a huge opinion who wasn't going to buy anything anyway), I'll put my money where my mouth is.
You see, if you don't make a logo-free version now, you never will, and that means I'll never buy it in your Kickstarter or at retail in the future (which is when I'd actually prefer to get it). However, if you put up a logo-free option like someone above suggested for the grassland or the urban mat (preferably urban mat please - in the way Yakface described!), I'll pledge right away. In addition to getting my single miserable pledge, you'll get to see if there's actual real demand from people out there like me who don't want the logo or you'll find out if we're all full of hot air (and isn't that what Kickstarter is for? To take a chance without taking the financial risk?)
I do like your mats very much, and I hope they'll be very successful. Over the last few years I've come to much prefer mats over boards, and I think your product can bring something great to the market. It'd just be perfect without that logo
Sigh. Hahaha, thanks for the sunny disposition and positive attitude!...Sorry to be rude in response to your rudeness, but you are way off and I am sure you can imagine that if this were your proejct you invested so heavily in terms of time, energy and money into, you would understand.
Reecius, you read WAY more negativity into my post than I had intended there to be and you clearly came away with the wrong idea, I probably need to work on my narrative voice. I was not saying your product is wrong/bad/crap. It was not a personal attack or a dig at your project. I pointed out that the Sabol Mats were very similar. I misremembered the material as being mousemat material apparently, but even so they still are very similar products aimed at the exact same target consumer: people willing to spend a fair bit of money for a product that functions EXACTLY like a green blanket but looks much better than just a green blanket.
The real point of my post, the one I hoped you'd draw from it and the one you still dismiss is this: There is a not-insignificant amount of people telling you that your logo is the only thing keeping them away from your product. I mentioned the Sabol mats not as a "it's been done already" and more as a cautionary tale from real experiences trying to sell it to actual gamers in a retail store. Yes, your logo is smaller ("TINY" as you keep pointing out). The logo is there, and it is starkly contrasted with the mat itself. Trying to convince us how small and unobtrusive it is will NOT work, we know it's there and it's all we can see, like a piece of food stuck in someone's teeth. The visual difference doesn't bother you at all and it doesn't bother everybody, that is clear (especially clear as the KS is about to fund). It bothers me and it bothers other people. Perhaps we are just a very small but vocal minority, but with Kickstarter we have 24 days to convince you to at least give us an option for a logo-less mat. Call it a "premium" mat and charge an extra $20 or something, but the target audience for a $95 high-res printed mat is slim enough as it is and the logos are flat-out costing you sales.
Also, +1 diagonal roads. Deployment zone roads are a nifty gimmick, but roads at a 30 degree angle are immensely more playable.
How dare a company put its logo on its product lol
Seriously people....have you seen how small that logo is?
Pretty crazy isn't it?
I mean, I wouldn't want Levi's to stop putting on the red tab or leather 'badge' on my 501s. My Fred Perry t-shirts would be just t-shirts without the wreath logo...
Imagine Blood Angels without the winged blood drop?!
1) You don't like the logo. Cool.
2) They aren't going to remove it. Cool.
3) You won't buy it with a logo. Cool.
4) They are ok with you not buying it. Cool
5) Lets all let it go. Cool.
Eggs wrote: Ruglud, I can only speak for myself, but I spend many many hours of my life trying to make models and terrain look as real as possible. I don't then want to see any form of advertising on the playing surface. Kind of destroys the illusion.
If you're that concerned with your table being as realistic as possible, I can't help but think that a printed mat probably isn't really the product for you anyway...
Azazelx wrote: Do people forget where they bought things and not know how to use google or speak to others?
I have any number of things floating around my house for which I can't remember the name of the manufacturer, and I'm not about to bust out Google in the middle of a game when someone asks me where I bought something on the table. So yes, having the product branded is potentially a big deal.
I've played (quite a lot) of Star Wars Miniatures, which has maps that include gridlines, terrain boundaries, printed names for the main sections of the map, and a logo and copyright information in the bottom corner. After the first 5 minutes, you don't even notice it all, aside from when you specifically have to look at the grid. I can't recall ever sitting there thinking that having writing on the map spoilt the illusion... The guys running around with giant discs attached to their feet is far more likely to do that...
The product here looks fantastic. If I had cash to splash around on mini stuff at the moment, I would be all over it.
Hey, I'd have let it go at the first page. Since then I've just been responding to all the 'how dare you have an opinion that is different to mine' posts.
As I've said already, I wish the makers the best of luck. It looks like a quality product.
Eggs wrote: Hey, I'd have let it go at the first page. Since then I've just been responding to all the 'how dare you have an opinion that is different to mine' posts. .
Reading through the thread, I don't think most of the replies were so much 'How dare you?' as simply 'Seriously... what...?'
Azazelx wrote: Do people forget where they bought things and not know how to use google or speak to others?
I have any number of things floating around my house for which I can't remember the name of the manufacturer, and I'm not about to bust out Google in the middle of a game when someone asks me where I bought something on the table. So yes, having the product branded is potentially a big deal.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Because if someone genuinely likes something enough to buy one of their own while playing a game at your house, it's not likely to come up ever again or ask you to check it out afterwards. Right?
While true insaniak, and it'd be great to finally move on here, it should be clear by now that there are a decent number of people in that camp. I can totally see where they're coming from.
Azazelx wrote: Because if someone genuinely likes something enough to buy one of their own while playing a game at your house, it's not likely to come up ever again or ask you to check it out afterwards. Right?
If I don't remember who made it now, I'm not any more likely to remember the next time it happens to come up...
Seriously, this is being made into a bigger deal than it really is. Having your merchandise branded increases sales, because it makes it easier for people to find out who made the product. An easier sale is a more likely sale.
Sure, some people might prefer to not have the logo on there. But if having a tiny logo in the corner of your tabletop is really sufficient reason to not buy this, then I can only repeat what I suggested to Eggs... this probably just isn't the product for you. Go for a more 'realistic' textured board instead. If you're going to suspend your disbelief enough to be using a printed mat in the first place, having a logo on it should be a non-issue.
But yes, I'm all for diagonal roads. That's how I have almost always set up urban boards...
Azazelx wrote: Because if someone genuinely likes something enough to buy one of their own while playing a game at your house, it's not likely to come up ever again or ask you to check it out afterwards. Right?
If I don't remember who made it now, I'm not any more likely to remember the next time it happens to come up...
Like right after the game. Or checking it out on your phone. Or on the packaging.
As I said, I personally don't care either way - but the arguments "for" are pretty far fetched/weak.
Just for the record (since I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about exactly why people are bothered by the logo), we'd all be 100% fine with a great big TABLEWAR logo in 4-foot long lettering on the container/carrying tube. No issue there.
It's not the logo or act of branding that's the issue so much as the placement of it.
Kinda like if you bought a new TV and there was an area of dead pixels in the shape of the sony logo in one of the corners of the screen...
Anyway, looking forward to seeing the desert mat, I do want one of those at some point.
I think the matts look great and unlike the matt with the larger logo, this is small enough to fit almost any terrain piece over the top of it if you really want to hide it.
Damn these kickstarters, tearing my wallet a new one !
Im going to have to be in for a few of these, I dont particularly like the logo but Its not a deal breaker for me, I can see why its there, and its really small anyway,
I can just cover it up if I do get pissed off with it, it doesn't really affect the realism for me, as someone already said, my Marines and whatnot are all already standing on a raised platform that is a different colour than the terrain a lot of the time anyway !
I really like this idea and will be buying into the KS when I get paid next week. Looking forward to the urban terrain one. I would also like to throw in my vote for the diagonal roads on the urban city board. Really like this, thanks guys.
The 'Urban Combat' Mega Mat is going to be the grid pattern as it took the most work to develop and we want one that designates deployment zones and that will match up with other tables when laid down!
So this one will be as shown....however, we are already talking about a Diagnoal City mat to produce in the future if there is a large enough demand for it. We will start running some polls for some of the awesome ideas we've gotten about additional mats. So, when that occurs, be sure to speak up and if the demand is there, we will do it!
@Griffen127
We've gotten dozens of requests for different mats but Space has been the most popular, we are very strongly considering that as something to include in this KS if we can develop a mat that is up to our quality demands! So stay tuned.
Diagonal roads would make for a better game. A straight up square grid means permanant fire lanes across the entire board, and it can mess things up somewhat. An off-set city grid tends to work better.
Any chance of a 4x8 mat - that size would cover my table nicely.
I'd also like to see an urban board with out roads, or only very minor roads - would be mainly broken up / highly weatherd concrete, tarmac and paving stone type effect with weeds in the cracks and litter scattered around
Alpharius wrote: I'll be waiting for that Diagonal City Map sometime at Future Retail then...
I think most people will, as parallel doesn't make sense for a gamer.
Better correct a mistake while it is still possible than produce something than noone can use.
And just reminding for a third time: Can you please answer my question on European distributors and European postage (per mat or per pledge)..
Fellas, we play tabletop games all the time, more than probably 99% of the people posting in this thread. This urban mat has been well planned out. This isn't just a grid slapped on a mat. Trust me, this has been designed to be a great mat to play on, functionally.
I am not saying we know more than you all, just that you need to see it in action before passing judgement. The roads are laid out in such a way that you can alter how it plays. You can have offset buildings on the table, it won't just be a straight grid, the layout actually isn't a grid really. You will understand when you see it.
@Ruglud
A 4x8' mat would require an entirely new mold, a new production run, and a much higher price due to increased shipping and materials used. We have not plans for that size mat at this time.
@Kroothawk
You think most people would rather have diagonal or you know? I am not trying to be confrontational here, but go read comments on our KS, or here and everyone tends to think there idea on what is best is universally best. We try to create a product that appeals to as many people as possible and if the diagonal road map proves popular enough, we will make it. But, again, don't pass judgement on a product before you've even seen it ;-)
As for you distribution question, sorry if I missed it, the questions have been coming very fast.
We are working on European distribution now. We think we will be able to pull it off, but we don't want to over-promise anything.
Assuming we do have to ship from the USA, as of now the pledge is per mat. If you organize a group order, we will work with you on shipping. But that will have to be on a per order basis. let me know the details via PM and we can try and figure something out.
Whether or not the roads are diagonal, have some sort of hash marks or something that show the endpoints of the lines for vanguard strike would make a world of difference. I'd be very close to pledging if that was available.
We've been brainstorming ideas on how to do that without making it look bad on the mats. We are in the final stages of finishing the Urban mats and I think we have some good ways to pull that off. However, if we can't show vanguard without sacrificing the aesthetic of the mat, we won't do it. First and foremost it has to look good. If we can do both, count on it!
Of course! Form is what's important. But if there were sidewalks or notable stones/items right on the edges where they were needed, it would improve the functionality by a lot for 40K players. I know that my friends and I often just treat 5-6 as a reroll when determining deployment because it isn't worth the hassle.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Diagonal roads would make for a better game. A straight up square grid means permanant fire lanes across the entire board, and it can mess things up somewhat. An off-set city grid tends to work better.
As someone who use to help set up tourny tables, I agree with this 100%.
Makeing a bunch of big fireing lanes that encourage static game play does not create rewarding games for most people.
I guess the Urban preview isn't ready? If it isn't, that makes me think diagonal roads would be an easy implementation but I have no experience with making mats... I also don't mean to beat a dead horse like the logo situation (for the record I don't care that the logo is there).
From the Update it sound like the design is nearly done. They'll be unveiling it this weekend along with Feb shipping levels. I think have both straiht and angled roads is a nice compromise.
Frontline Gaming: Update #2 wrote:Hello Mega Mat Backers!
1 more day and we broke through the first stretch funding tier! Thank you! The pledges are coming in faster than we expected. We can now offer you the ‘Urban Combat’ theme.
This weekend, we will be opening up a new pledge level. This new pledge level will allow for 200 February shipments of the new ‘Urban Combat’ Theme. We will open this up at ~5pm PST on Saturday. About that same time, we will be sharing you our first teaser image of the design with the full image available by Monday.
Now, we have received a lot of feedback regarding this design and others. We have put a lot of thought and effort into it and are sure you will love it. However, there is a strong request for a version of ‘Urban Combat’ with streets that run at angles. So, we are going to add a new stretch goal target for ‘Urban Combat 2’! This new stretch goal will be set at $80K and, if unlocked, would be first available for March shipments (not able to make this intercept February). So, you will have a choice… our goal is to make ‘Urban Combat 2’ “tileable” with ‘Urban Combat’… so you could place the two side by side for a very large (and cool, amazing, brilliant looking) battle landscape.
But wait, there's more.. We will also be adding a $75K stretch funding tier for a 4x4' 'Space' themed mat.
Thanks to all for the constructive feedback... And thanks to all for your pledge support.
Hey guys, thanks so much for helping us hit our first tier!
Wow, that happened faster than we thought it would!
The urban mat is almost done with the final detailing and we don't want to reveal it before it is ready to rock but we will put up a teaser image very, very soon!
As stated, it doesn't have big giant firing lanes. it is easily adjusted to block LoS in the middle of the table.
But, we listened to what you guys had to say and we are going to add additional stretch goals to reflect the two most common themes for mats we've received so far: 4x4' Space Combat and 4x6' Urban Combat with angled roads.
We can't push either forward as we already have work going on the initial designs we already have going. But, if we hit our stretch goals, they will become a reality on the KickStarter, so thanks for the suggestions.
We're well on our way to unlocking the Alpine Mat too, which has been getting a lot of positive feedback!
Thanks again everyone for the awesome support, feedback and suggestions.
@TomJoad
Yeah, the fellas were trying to get Vanguard in there on the design but it just doesn't mesh that well with the other deployments. We'll see with the final image if they pull it off.
@Eldarian
We absolutely listen to suggestions and will react to them. However, we have literally dozens of requests for mats, styles, etc. and we just can't do them all.
Each design takes a long time to complete. The guys making them are video game level designers and each mat has a seriously insane level of detail and is very high resolution. In order to get that level of detail takes time and so we have to stick to our schedule to get these done and keep up with the KickStarter as best we can! We are 100% open to suggestions though so keep them coming! We just may not be able to hit them as fast as people may want is all.
Good to see the feedback taken on the two most popular requests- that just makes business sense, obviously. Although, unfortunately I doubt either will happen with the goals at 75k and 80k. Would love to be wrong, of course.
One: any ideas on retail $$? I really want this, but buying it in January for $20 more makes way more sense to me financially than adding to my Christmas bills.
Two: I would also love the diagonal over the squared off grid
Three: This product is awesome, I run a gaming group of about 20 and will be passing this on to everyone
Four: a space or a water map would be really really great down the road. I know tons of Victory at Sea and War at Sea guys would drop 100 USD for a hex map with open ocean pattern on it. Also the Axis and Allies miniatures crowd might be a good place to plug your product.
To touch on the above point, there's another ks on the go just now offering acetate overlays with various grids for systems like dust tactics. Seems like a good way to pull in punters from various systems and get add on sales?
Yeah, we want to give people what they want for sure, as you said, it only makes sense.
The trick is to do that while being realistic. We have gotten over 30 requests for different styles of mats and everyone feels that what they think is the coolest mat is the coolest mat, period! hahaha, and often the follow up sentiment is that we're business dumb-dumbs if we don't see it that way, too!
So sorting out the ideas that have a lot of appeal from those that are maybe a little more niche can be difficult. And, we have to stick to our established schedule as much as possible for this first product run as if we make big changes it will throw off our time line.
The cool thing about this is that we plan on supporting it with additional mats, accessories, etc. down the road if it is popular (which is seems to be!) so expect more products in this line as we go, we just may not be able to do it all in the KS is all.
@Anpu-Adom
Yeah, we agree and as stated if it can be done without sacrificing the aesthetics of the mat, it will be done. Marking Vanguard is a PITA, I agree!
@Lobukia
MSRP undetermined at this point in time, sorry. The KS is cheaper though when you factor in shipping, particularly if you order in more than one.
Glad you like the product and thanks very much for the support!
@eggs
That is a good idea, thanks for the suggestion. We will check it out and see if there is room for us to help one another out!
A 4x8' mat would require an entirely new mold, a new production run, and a much higher price due to increased shipping and materials used. We have not plans for that size mat at this time.
Understood - thought I'd ask though - will make do with the PVC table protector for now
If you ever do go large, I'll be sure to check back in
Yeah, we want to give people what they want for sure, as you said, it only makes sense.
The trick is to do that while being realistic. We have gotten over 30 requests for different styles of mats and everyone feels that what they think is the coolest mat is the coolest mat, period! hahaha, and often the follow up sentiment is that we're business dumb-dumbs if we don't see it that way, too!
You most certainly are business Dumb-Dumbs. You should do my idea, give everyone mats for free! But seriously, these look great.
I look forward to seeing the Urban design! I'm with Yak and all the others about the virtues of a diagonal building/road alignment on a city/ruin board (and I find them a lot more aesthetically appealing as well, as to me an angled city layout always looks more like a slice of a real place, whereas buildings set up exactly parallel to the table edges always look more like a game board), but I expect that you've come up with a cool and functional design.
Kroothawk wrote: So what is it with the shiping costs and distribution.
Will there be a European distributor for kickstarter products?
Will it still be 15$ extra postage (per mat or per order)?
Did Kroothawk's questions (above) ever get answered?
I didn't mean to sound dismissive either, hope it didn't come across that way. We have had a few requests for the 4x8' size and if it is popular enough and we can do it cost effectively at the manufacturing level, we will!
Thanks for the input.
@RiTides
You are right, and I apologize if it feels like I am fighting you guys it's just that for one, no one has seen the Urban Design we have yet and we're already getting requests to change it! Haha, I hope you can understand that it really doesn't make sense to scrap something that has been worked on for weeks just off of a few commentors in a thread on a forum (not to put anyone down, but in comparison to the overall volume of feedback we get, this is only one part of it).
We've invested a lot of time, energy and money into the current design and it was very meticulously thought out. I'm not saying it will be everyone's absolute favorite, but it will be extremely functional for game-play and it looks really nice. And despite what people may think, it is actually not at all easy to make that big of a change to a design that is as intricate as this one, quickly.
We're doing the final detail work now and it will be done on Monday!
Like I said too, if it is popular enough to make angled streets (and please bear in mind that a few voices on a forum do not necessarily make a majority) we'll make the angled road mat, too! After Space mats, that is the most common request. So we plan on following through with it.
End of the day, we'll make what you all want so long as the support is there. You can count on that.
@Whitedragon
Oh, my favorite response we've gotten on the net has been: "You should have made them in America, and I think you are charging too much."
.......
Hahaha. So many people have opinions like that, which are funny. We were able to make them this inexpensively only because we manufactured in China. If we were to have made them in the USA (which with their minium volumes we couldn't afford to do , period), the cost would be MUCH higher. Can't have both, unfortunately.
It's opinions such as those that can be difficult to work through as sometimes people have totally unrealistic expectations. It's all part of the process, though!
@Mannahnin
Duly noted, thanks for your input. Angled roads can look sweet and as I have stated, we plan on working on such a design down the road. The current one I think will please people as well.
And yes, I believe I did answer Kroothawk's questions already, but for completeness:
All shipping costs are up on the KickStarter. For domestic (USA) purchases, shipping is included in the cost.
We are working on European Distribution and feel that it is about 95% likely to occur, and will be shipping from Sweden.
The price is per mat (they are fairly heavy and if we had the extra charge per order, we could potentially lose a ton of money on a large order)) but, as I told Kroothawk, we can work with people who make group orders on an individual basis. I advised him to PM the details of his order and we could work soothing out.
@Thread
Alpine Unlocked! Nice, wow this is going faster than anticipated! Thanks so much for the support everyone! The Alpine mat will be available to view next week!
Reecius wrote: A 4x8' mat would require an entirely new mold, a new production run, and a much higher price due to increased shipping and materials used. We have not plans for that size mat at this time.
Although if you could come up with some sort of clip-on strip that would hold the edges of two 4x4 mats together, that would essentially fit the bill, and would save producing a larger mat that would be in much smaller demand than the other two sizes...
If the mat material is rigid enough, possibly even just a strip of velcro on the underside would do the job... which could potentially also serve to hold closed when rolled...
Why not make urban terrain mat with no roads and then make printed roads on same material a further KS goal. Even if I didn't get the mat I would buy the roads as there are no good packaged roads out there right now (since the GW ones went OOP) and your material with printing seams like it would work good.
Reecius, it's no problem, but just note that you gave the impression the other designs were done and thus couldn't be changed; this one isn't done and so better to suggest it now seemingly. If when it is shown it is said it can't be changed, I'd just like to note the suggestion was made, by many, now.
I know you've been working on it, but if you can't take feedback before Or after showing them, when can you take it?
I think you'd do better to leave out the "We get so many suggestions and people diss us if we can't do them" and simply say instead "thank you for the suggestion". I just pointed out that a dozen or more people have liked that idea in this thread to illustrate that point.
No one is dissing your design, it hasn't been shown. Instead, they're telling you what they'd like. If you can't do it, no problem, just don't diss your customers or imply 1000 things are being demanded of you guys here. One good suggestion has been noted by many, it is your call to listen to that or simply say you can't; as it seems is unfortunately the case unless you raise enough to do it as a separate mat after all your other goals.
That's a good idea. The join wouldn't be perfect though, there would be a seam running between the two pieces which may bug some people.
And, we'd still have to make a new mold and new run for the 2x4' sections, plus find a factory to do the Velcro, and source the materials. Totally doable, but the solution may actually be more complex than the problem in this case.
Still, a cool idea though, I will look further into it.
@Anpu-adom
Yeah, it looks like we will for sure hit Barren Wasteland at the very least, I think the 4x4' mats are going to happen, too! It's awesome to see it grow!
@Grimgob
That is a really good idea and we actually had someone else suggest the same things with area terrain markers, such as for woods and such. We're definitely going to look into that concept. As stated though for those specific mat, the Urban Combat mat, we have to finish it by Monday in order to stay on our production schedule or the entire project gets thrown off track. The mats actually take a LOT of time to design, it isn't a quick process at all.
That said, we are open to more designs and will certainly look into that as we go forward.
@RiTides
Fair point, I did sound like the designs were done, in the video I said they were prepared and perhaps that was the wrong word to use. I said it because we had already gotten the idea for the layout and the rough designs down and have been working on them for some time and so in my mind they are "done" in terms of concept if not actually finished with the fine detail work. Sorry if it was confusing.
We always take feedback, for sure, but due to the physical limitations of design, manufacturing and shipping, we are pretty dang fixed in our path for this first production run.
However, if a good idea comes we will absolutely run with it. As stated, we're going to follow through on the Space Mat and the angled road mat too, if the popularity is there. We put it at the end of the KickStarter not because it isn't a valuable idea, but because, as stated, we have a fairly rigid production schedule. We'd have to interrupt what we've already committed to doing which may please a few, but it would simultaneously disappoint a great many.
I understand what you're saying about being polite, and I feel that I am very much so, but I also like to mix in some realism so that people understand our side of the process, too. Just like with tournament organization you tend to get a lot of folks telling you what you should do that maybe don't have enough information to really be qualified to say anything quantitative on the topic in the first place. It is really hard to point that out without coming across as being rude. And in that specific instance you mention, I wasn't trying to diss you or anyone else, I was just trying to point out that if a number of people in a thread in a forum agree on something, it may feel in that context like a majority, but it often isn't (although it can actually represent a majority opinion but we need more data to be sure). I was just trying to illustrate that point, not put anyone down. If I were to just repeat, "thanks for the suggestion" over and over, while polite, people would eventually press for more and a "why aren't you acting on this?" would inevitably come up. I figure it's better to give some real information on why we are taking the stance we are so that folks can hopefully understand our intentions. And we simply can't react to every suggestion, you know? There are limitations we work within that prohibit that.
I am fielding questions on the project here, other forums, podcasts, twitter,Kickstarter, our site, our forums, facebook, multiple email accounts, etc. and the opinions differ all over the place on what is the "right" way to go with this KS and a lot of them are contradictory. We literally can't appease everyone, and I just try to illustrate that the opinions expressed here may not be universal, is all. Again, not trying to diss anyone, just presenting a dose of the reality we see on our side of the project to hopefully make things more understandable to everyone else.
And honestly, it's awesome that people are giving feedback because it means they're excited about the project! That's rad.
Is there anything in the pipeline you can talk about in terms of add-ons? I ask because they would really inject some upward momentum in the campaign.
As it is, we're in kind of an odd middle ground of needing to hit a higher amount to unlock some designs but the only thing to pledge is full mats which many people will only need one maybe two of.
Just curious
Can't wait to see the Alpine design, which is the one I'm most excited for.
Eldarain wrote: Is there anything in the pipeline you can talk about in terms of add-ons? I ask because they would really inject some upward momentum in the campaign.
As it is, we're in kind of an odd middle ground of needing to hit a higher amount to unlock some designs but the only thing to pledge is full mats which many people will only need one maybe two of.
Just curious
Can't wait to see the Alpine design, which is the one I'm most excited for.
Yeah, that is a really good point and something I have been thinking about a lot, myself. We have a big jump to get to the 4x4' mats because it is pretty much starting an entirely new project. New molds, new jigs, new art, etc. Easier because we've done it once, but it requires a ton of money to raise the capital we need to order the minimum numbers to make them 4x4' mats at all. Our strategy to this point has been to expose the KickStarter to a wider audience and get enough people to buy mats to trigger the jump to the 4x4' size which I still think is a sound plan. We are reaching out all over the place to try and raise awareness of the project.
If we had mid level goals that would help a lot as you pointed out, but then it takes money away from getting to the 4x4' mats which make the process take longer! Bit of a catch 22.
We have a ton of ideas for accessories and add-ons, but having actually gone through this process and seeing how difficult it can be, we don't want to dangle a carrot for an idea for a product that we actually have no idea how to make, you know? It's tough because in a lot of KSs you see them talk about grand dreams and big ideas with no real way of making it happen which is dangerous. We don't want to say we can do something we can't. We want to establish a reputation for following through.
So, we are hesitant to talk about our expansion ideas until we are more confident in the practical side of cost, production, etc.
That was a long winded explanation, hahaha, but hopefully it at least partially answers your question. I think the best I can say is that we aren't discussing add-ons just yet as we have our hands full, but hopefully in the near future.
Reecius wrote: And, we'd still have to make a new mold and new run for the 2x4' sections,
I actually meant to join two 4x4s together, as you already had mentioned those as a stretch goal. Although if you could make some sort of joiner available for any of the mats, that would enable people to configure them however they want anyway...
And yeah, the joint would't be perfect, but that's not really any different to all those tables with configurable terrain tiles, or set up like the Realm of Battle with separate sections.
Actually, that is a really good idea. And, since the mats have a rubber back, you really wouldn't even need the Velcro. You could just lay down two next to one another.
Is there anything in the pipeline you can talk about in terms of add-ons? I ask because they would really inject some upward momentum in the campaign.
As it is, we're in kind of an odd middle ground of needing to hit a higher amount to unlock some designs but the only thing to pledge is full mats which many people will only need one maybe two of.
Just curious
Can't wait to see the Alpine design, which is the one I'm most excited for.
Spoiler:
Yeah, that is a really good point and something I have been thinking about a lot, myself. We have a big jump to get to the 4x4' mats because it is pretty much starting an entirely new project. New molds, new jigs, new art, etc. Easier because we've done it once, but it requires a ton of money to raise the capital we need to order the minimum numbers to make them 4x4' mats at all. Our strategy to this point has been to expose the KickStarter to a wider audience and get enough people to buy mats to trigger the jump to the 4x4' size which I still think is a sound plan. We are reaching out all over the place to try and raise awareness of the project.
If we had mid level goals that would help a lot as you pointed out, but then it takes money away from getting to the 4x4' mats which make the process take longer! Bit of a catch 22.
We have a ton of ideas for accessories and add-ons, but having actually gone through this process and seeing how difficult it can be, we don't want to dangle a carrot for an idea for a product that we actually have no idea how to make, you know? It's tough because in a lot of KSs you see them talk about grand dreams and big ideas with no real way of making it happen which is dangerous. We don't want to say we can do something we can't. We want to establish a reputation for following through.
So, we are hesitant to talk about our expansion ideas until we are more confident in the practical side of cost, production, etc.
That was a long winded explanation, hahaha, but hopefully it at least partially answers your question. I think the best I can say is that we aren't discussing add-ons just yet as we have our hands full, but hopefully in the near future.
Thanks for the explanation. Getting as many different eyes on the project as possible is definitely the best way to go with the current set-up. Perhaps you can revisit the idea later in the campaign.
Yeah, if we stall we will definitely think of some cool ideas to get it fired up again. Thanks for the ideas you sent my way, too! Much appreciated.
@thread
Urban Combat and Alpine mats unlocked for pledge levels! We have limited quantities guaranteed for February so jump on these if you want one while they're hot!
Reecius wrote: Urban Combat and Alpine mats unlocked for pledge levels! We have limited quantities guaranteed for February so jump on these if you want one while they're hot!
Hey, no worries, all ideas are welcome! We may not use them all of course, but you never know where a great idea will come from.
@Kroothawk
Hahaha, fair enough! Our design schedule didn't keep up with the KS's popularity (obviously) but the Urban Combat mat will be done by Monday (PST) and Alpine shortly thereafter.
Sorry for the delay! We thought we'd have more time to prepare but hey, as problems go, this is one I am happy to have.
There is a bit of nay saying so here is my honest opinion.
It's more expensive than cloth mats, but cloth mats are lower quality in appearance, less durable, and tend to slide around making them less functional.
High quality mats don't look as good as well painted and flocked 3d tables like realm of battle or custom created tables , but 3d tables take a huge amount of time and money to create, your product is more durable, more portable, and a flat surface is far more functional as a gaming table.
Over all verdict: You have the competition beat in the categories of functionality as a play table + durability, it's top tier in portability + ready to play without painting, and are in a sweet spot when it comes to cost + appearance. I would wish you good luck but you probably don't need it with a product that will eventually sell it's self.
They look great I would order one now but I already spent a lot in November and don't want to pick up wife agro for spending too much on gaming right before the holidays.
Using as many as possible for tables at the Las Vegas open would convince a lot of people to buy one and generate a ton of word of mouth about the quality of the product. Plus a lot of the battle report pictures will be on your product. You could probably also tell a lot of units at the Las Vegas open. I would even buy a used in tournament like new mat at retail - shipping.
Probably a low priority, but would be interested in seeing an ocean style mat. Play Uncharted Seas and Dystopian Wars and would like to see a good ocean mat. We use the Dreadfleet cloth, but that is 3.5 x 5. Would like to get a full table mat.
silent25 wrote: Probably a low priority, but would be interested in seeing an ocean style mat. Play Uncharted Seas and Dystopian Wars and would like to see a good ocean mat. We use the Dreadfleet cloth, but that is 3.5 x 5. Would like to get a full table mat.
The only competition in naval combat games is the dread fleet map which requires a purchase of that over priced lemon of a game.
It would be easy to blow this out of the water.
I think a space mat for battle fleet gothic, wxing, and firestorm armada would sell even better. X wing miniatures from fantasy flight games is a big game right now with a rabid fan base.
Imagine playing a game on this instead of a black sheet
The Urban combat map is up... wow. It really looks impressive, and the guys did a good job of laying out the semi-grid.
All of the base patterns have now funded, but that's not the big news.
Because of feedback, they have dropped the level of funding required for the 4x4 mats to just $40K for the first two and $45k for all 5 designs!!! This is huge because it means that they are making a big gamble on purchasing the tools and dies to make the 4x4 mat without fully funding it first.
Kroothawk wrote: I will wait for the diagonal street version, as this one stands in the way of arranging terrain without open firelines as expected.
BTW who needs 4x4 mats except a few X-Wing players?
Mostly people that non-GW games. The 4x4 mat covers Warmahordes, Infinity, Malifaux, X-Wing, Brushfire, maybe Mantic (can't comment, never played anything beyond Dreadball), smaller games of Flames of War, Bolt Action, etc...
The best way to get to that diagonal street pattern would be to back the project and let people know about it. You can always pull your money out near the end if you aren't able to get what you want.
The horizontal streets make me want to see the diagonal streets even more!
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, the horizontal streets look as disappointing as predicted/feared!
Still, hopefully this is successful and the diagonal version shows up somewhere... down the road.
Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not disappointed in the horizontal streets. I think that they look awesome, I just think that diagonal streets would play better.
schadenfreude wrote: I think a space mat for battle fleet gothic, wxing, and firestorm armada would sell even better. X wing miniatures from fantasy flight games is a big game right now with a rabid fan base.
Imagine playing a game on this instead of a black sheet
Vinyl maps... 4'x6' for $40 including shipping. Obviously they're not as durable as what reecius is presenting here but the option does exist.
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, the horizontal streets look as disappointing as predicted/feared!
Still, hopefully this is successful and the diagonal version shows up somewhere... down the road.
Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not disappointed in the horizontal streets. I think that they look awesome, I just think that diagonal streets would play better.
I wasn't?
I guess the only thing I am currently misunderstanding is maybe that you misunderstood and thought that I was talking about your level of satisfaction instead of my own?
Thanks for the support! We felt we hit the right note between price, quality, ease of use and storage and portability.
Glad you like them!
As for Space mats, that is by far the most popular request and we plan on running with it, it is just a matter of when.
And you said it, people are making (IMO) a bigger deal about the streets' direction that is warranted. For one, streets create fire lanes no matter what direction they run, for two, I have never seen a table that didn't have fire lanes. However, everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion.
And yes, with buildings on this mat, it will look BOSS! I can't wait to get those pics out there.
@Silent25
We have a lot of ideas on the consideration list but that is a good one and we will certainly add it to the list. If it proves to be popular, we will certainly give it a go! Maybe with some cool island terrain, too? Who knows, but cool suggestion, thanks.
@Anpu-adom
You beat me to the punch
Yes, we got the Urban mats done, I will post the official text on it in a sec, but thanks for the support and the post!
@Kroothawk
Diagonal streets create fire lanes, too, of course. They just run at different angles which will have a different impact based on the deployment and game being played.
As stated, cities have streets, hahaha, so, it kind of goes with the territory. Also, we intentionally created sections in the middle of the table to offset terrain so that you can stagger terrain to offset that.
As stated, a lot of games use 4x4' mats: Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, Malifaux (3x3' also for them), X-Wing, etc. There are a lot of games out there besides 40K =)
@Alphariuus
Yes, the 4x4' mats have been pushed forward! It's a bit of a financial risk for us but we're running hot and want to keep the momentum so we decided to take go for it with the smaller mats! We think the community will be happier for that.
I believe fully that the Urban Combat mats are going to not only be the most popular in terms of sales figures, but a blast to play on. Your opinion may differ of course and that is fine, but I really, really don't think the angle of the roads is as big of a deal as some feel they are. YMMV, of course. With perpendicular roads, two mats can be placed in contact with one another to create a bigger table where the roads meet, the mark deployment zones, and look great, if I do say so myself.
And hopefully this is successful? We've already doubled our funding goals and are continuing to climb so I think it is reasonably safe to assume that the success of the venture, at least financially, is not in question =P Considering we also are partnered with a company that has a partner in China with 3 years of manufacturing experience and that we are keeping a tight rein on production schedules, this is a very safe bet.
And, if you really want to see those angled roads, instead of putting down our baby (you mean man! ) pledge in to make it a reality! I have found that is a lot more effective strategy than complaining!
@Thread
The wait is over, Urban Combat is here! This Mega Mat is sure to be very popular. It is extremely detailed, these pictures are only at a quarter resolution. At full res, you can actually read the headlines on the newspapers that litter the battlefield! There are all manor of characterful images such as burning flares, tread marks, cracked cement, etc. that bring the scene to life and add a new level of immersion to your games!
This Mega Mat is not only good looking, but extremely functional. It allows you to place buildings in a number of locations where they will be framed by the streets and sidewalks. Also, the graphics on the mat can be used as areas of terrain themselves or they can be covered by buildings or other pieces of terrain to alter the way it looks! We designed it so that you could alter the placement of buildings and terrain on the mat so that the layout of the city would change from game to game. You can for example, cover the park areas to have a totally urban environment, or leave some or all of them exposed to mix it up. This allows a lot of variety in game play. As soon as possible, we will post pics with buildings on an actual mat as this one really comes to life with terrain on it, it looks smashing when set up!
The streets are wide enough for 28mm tank vehicles to move along and look like they fit properly, and the sidewalks also, are scaled for infantry sized 28mm models.
We've also put visual indicators on the Urban Combat mat to show you where deployment zones are for popular wargames. See if you can spot them all! Also, please note that the "Urban Combat" Watermarks on the image are not on the actual gaming mat, and the Frontline Gaming and Tablewar logos pictures on the sample images are shown to watermark the images and do not appear on the actual gaming mat as shown in the images.
We think you'll be thrilled with the Urban Combat Mega Mat as we are! We can't wait to get a game in on this bad boy.
Hidden in the quoted text above it's mentioned that they're just watermarks for these pics, Alph, not on the actual product.
The closeups look good, but the symmetrical layout isn't what I'd have gone for. So, this is not something that tempts me, but I'm looking forward to seeing the diagonal streets if that unlocks.
Hey fellas, pretty sure we're all clear on your stance on the street thing, haha, you're said it enough times! You are entitled to your opinions for sure, but it would be cool if you guys just let it go at this point. If it's not for you, that is totally fine, we never expected everyone to like them all, but we worked very hard on this and it is a great product. It would be a bummer for your negativity to influence others that may have otherwise been very happy with it, you know? No need to beat a dead horse.
Reecius, if you post on a forum you're going to get mixed reviews, there was nothing "negative" in my post at all! I think the design is too symmetrical (regardless of being slanted or straight!) and I am fully within my rights to say so!
You may want to take a look at the Battle Systems kickstarter and how they interacted with folks making suggestions... it's very different from how you are doing it:
No matter how many times you try to brush off people's reviews, they have every right to post them and will continue to do so here and on any other public forum. Seriously man, how did you get "negativity" from my posting this?
RiTides wrote: The closeups look good, but the symmetrical layout isn't what I'd have gone for. So, this is not something that tempts me, but I'm looking forward to seeing the diagonal streets if that unlocks.
You seem to think anything that isn't a glowing review is off-topic, but it's not... not only is your urban layout straight along with the board edges, it is symmetrical from one side to the other. I don't know why you can't listen to any feedback at all, but it is a major turnoff here, and certainly isn't helping you market this. Better to not say anything, but MUCH better to actually listen to what people are saying after you show images.
This is generally how Kickstarters work, as opposed to preorders- there is give and take between the creator and backers, and the best projects use that feedback to their advantage rather than viewing it as an obstacle to overcome. I'll be interested to hear if other people like the symmetrical layout, and hopefully you are, too.
Edit: Even Games & Gears, who did not do a ton of listening to feedback, are modifying their fantasy streets layout after a lot of folks posted the same feedback. I also would like to point out that you are trying to squash discussion both before AND after showing pics of the urban streets. I don't know why, how will you ever get a handle on what people are looking for if you do that?
I actually like this mat the best of those shown so far, but would have preferred the roads coming on from the long edges to not line up with one another to create such obvious fire lines. It's actually much more symmetrical than I had anticipated. This is worth discussion, and if you can't handle discussing your own product you really shouldn't be participating in the thread! People are going to talk about the layout now that it's been shown, and it's 100% on-topic. I just don't know why you can't seem to let the discussion happen about it, and maybe even learn something from it about what your customers are looking for.
Do others not agree that the roads coming on from the long edge would be better staggered, rather than lining up with the ones on the other side? Even if this is done to make deployment easier, I think other markers would have been better as after playing on this a few times, the symmetrical layouts are going to get frustrating, I think.
Not trying to be negative at all, just giving my honest opinion! No need for you to reply to it, I'm looking for other's thoughts on this as much (or even more) than your own...
Perhaps negative was too strong of a word, I wasn't trying to attack anyone. You guys have both said some positive things about the mats which we appreciate, thank you. And I know you are offering criticism with the intent to help, which is also appreciated.
I just started to get a bit tired of hearing the same thing from the same people is all, which you guys can hopefully understand. =) We are reacting to the input too, and plan on bringing out an angled road in time, but we can't alter our production schedule as we plan on having these mats in peoples hands within 2 months of funding! That is killer! A lot of KSs don't get product to their funders for 6 months or more!
And trust me, i write for BoLS, I am all too familiar with strong criticism when you put yourself out there online! hahah, it goes with the territory, but that also doesn't mean the person who speaks has to passively take the reactions, you know? As you stated, a Forum may provide critiques, which is fine, but as you say I should be prepared for that, then so should you be prepared to evoke a response from those you critique =) What's good for the goose is good for the gander and that expectation should go both ways.
Anyway, enough on this topic, the input is appreciated guys, this is my baby and perhaps I got a little defensive and for my part, I apologize. I hope you fellas support the KS and have a ton of fun gaming on the Mats!
Well I appreciate the reply, as well as the PMs talking it over. I think I actually see where you're coming from pretty well now, and that it just might not have been being communicated. I also mentioned that I was coming off of a recent campaign with the Warboard, which is similar in both product and timeline, and took TONS of feedback onboard! But I understand every project isn't the same, and I'll definitely be considering the space mat when it unlocks here
Speaking of that, could you explain why there's the large gap from the 45K themes to the 75K space theme? I am sure there is a good reason, I just didn't see what that was (maybe the earlier themes are already partially funded outside the KS, and thus being pro-rated and didn't need to raise as much).
Also if you are able to show a sketch of the angled roads before committing to the design I'm sure a ton of folks would love to see it
Alpharius wrote: I might be a little late to this part of the conversation too but, that logo in the Urban Combat mock up isn't show at actual size, is it?
Don't be absurd Alpha. Of course it won't have the logo in that size. It will have "Urban Combat Close-Ups" plastered all over it though.
Huh. One of those close-ups seems to have a full grid laid out, across both sidewalk and building "footprint"; are those 1" squares? (Pre-6e 40k, in the dark times before pre-measuring, that would have been a serious problem, as would the roads of uniform width & separation; I don't know if that affects utility for any other game system.)
When it comes time to do space, I'd suggest just searching the high-res archives of Hubble imagery. You're not going to beat out Nasa on designs, and those are all public-domain images.
Glad we were able to get on the same page, it is easy to misunderstand one another on-line.
It is difficult to compare one project to another as they are so different in so many ways. It isn't just the product itself but how and where it is made, who is in the decision making process, etc. Every KS really is a unique beast.
As for the big gap, we don't want to over-commit on production. Our design team is pushing it hard to get the mats we already have committed to done, and we don't want to say we will unlock a mat and then hit the goal and be unable to deliver before the KS ends! Haha, that would be really bad.
We plan on supporting this after the KS, this isn't a one shot deal. However, if we hit those big numbers, we can afford to take more money out of our own pockets to hire additional artists to speed up the process.
Sketches can be made available, but I don't want to give a hard and fast yes right now to that as we have a lot on our plate at present! haha
@Cyporiean
IRRC, 2 Rhinos should be able to just pass one another, I believe the roads are 6" wide, that was in the design specs, but as soon as I get the final dimensions from the artists, I will post that up.
@HBMC
Hahahaha, yes, it will have a giant block of text all over it =P
And a giant logo mat? Done! Weeee! What fun to play on a billboard! haha
@Jathkin
Great idea on the Hubble images! We will definitely look into that.
And yes, I believe the final image has 1" squares which can allow for pre-measuring in certain games, but hey, hard to make a sidewalk without squares
Alpharius wrote: I might be a little late to this part of the conversation too but, that logo in the Urban Combat mock up isn't show at actual size, is it?
I also hope that the big white "Urban Combat" text will get smaller on the end product
That said, I would prefer the diagonal street map to have a more complex system of streets, you know, more like an old town center than like LA, to create interest and kill obvious lines of fire.
Good to see that there are details in the close up pics that were not present in the overall pic. Can't have enough small details like sewer covers and tyre marks on a city map.
Kind of a silly question: if I pledge for an urban mat now, but the diagonal opens up later... will I need to change my pledge or will I simply be asked to choose with one I wanted?
Reason I ask, is that I will be traveling quite a bit this month and may not be able to manage my pledge as we get close to end date.
Yeah, it is crazy detailed! You can read the Newspapers on the full res image!
And for this one we wanted to make the streets able to match up with other mats so you could make them bigger for games of apoc, for example.
For the Diagonal mat I think that is a great idea to have streets going every which way as they don't need to match up with other mats. That creates a less symmetrical image.
Thanks for the suggestion!
@Lobukia
Yes, you can get any map you want that is unlocked once we fund! Just be aware that for February shipment, you need to grab an "early bird" pledge.
We may lower that goal if we feel confident we can get the same quality art done faster. Stay tuned and thanks for the feedback!
Alpharius wrote: I might be a little late to this part of the conversation too but, that logo in the Urban Combat mock up isn't show at actual size, is it?
I also hope that the big white "Urban Combat" text will get smaller on the end product
Hilarious.
Really.
Anyway...
Looking forward to seeing renders of the recently unlocked stuff - I hope there's one in there that will fit what I'm looking for!
Reecius wrote: For the Diagonal mat I think that is a great idea to have streets going every which way as they don't need to match up with other mats. That creates a less symmetrical image.
Thanks for the suggestion!
@Lobukia
Yes, you can get any map you want that is unlocked once we fund!
We may lower that goal if we feel confident we can get the same quality art done faster. Stay tuned and thanks for the feedback!
Alpine will be done this week! A lot of people are excited to see it and myself too as, selfishly, my Eldar are snow based and I want to use them on it!
@RiTides
Thanks!
@Thatguyoverthere
Not certain on the MSRP at this point, it will depend on shipping actual once we get them in our hands with packaging. Sorry I can't be more specific.
Glad you like them!
@Thread
Hey guys, here is a breakdown of how the Urban Combat mat shows you deployment zones as well as measurements on the mat.
For those that are still in the design phase, could you add some notable rocks or something at the points where the diagonal deployment zones intersect the map edge? It doesn't need to give a line on the entire zone edge, but just marking the end points would be a major time-saver.
Hey guys, here is a breakdown of how the Urban Combat mat shows you deployment zones as well as measurements on the mat.
Hello,
is there /is it possible to have some small marks on the side to mark the vangard deployement zones? The diagonal is usefull, but it's more the deployment zones that are difficult to figure...
I think the design has already gone to the manufacturer for preparation to begin pre-production (lots of steps before it is ready to be printed onto the mats, and we want to begin as soon as we fund). So, I am going to say no at this point (although a great idea) but if I am wrong on that, I will be sure to clarify.
I figured that, at least for the current ones. But for your future designs, might be easier to incorporate into the designs. It can be subtle - just takes a little mark in the right spots.
@shadenfreunde
They did get that suggestion on the kickstarter page and it's been filed away for future use. With all the suggestions/refinements that the community have been suggesting, I'm sure they'll have enough to keep this product line fresh for years to come!
Question about the 4x4 stretch goals, since it seems you will reach them very soon. If I pledge at the $40,000 dollar mark and the urban and alpine 4x4s are unlocked, is there a way to just indicate I want say the alpine instead of the grass one? Or do I need to pull my money out and choose another pledge level? Kind of a kickstarter noob here. Will there eventually be a pledge to buy all the 4x4 mats?
Also do you have any youtube videos up of these things? Particularly showing how flat they lay, how well they keep from sliding around, etc? I really love the look of these things, and it'd be awesome to have 4 to throw down for a bunch of quick Infinity tables.
On Kickstarter, you can change your pledge amount and/or pledge level right up to the last minute. So if a different pledge level becomes available, you can change to it, so long as you do so prior to the close of the drive.
We will be at Adepticon, we want to bring some mats but that is not set in stone yet so I don't want to give you a commitment on that and not be able to deliver. We will know as get closer to Adepticon on that one, there are a lot of variables involved in us bringing mats that I can't answer right now as they aren't my call to make.
Im not going to try and understand this startkicker business but I like the look of these mats. When will it be possible to put my card details in a website and have one of these shipped to the UK? How much is a 6x4 going to cost in £ ?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Im not going to try and understand this startkicker business but I like the look of these mats. When will it be possible to put my card details in a website and have one of these shipped to the UK? How much is a 6x4 going to cost in £ ?
Please forgive my laziness.
Kickstarter is USA, UK, and Canada, so all you need to do is to sign up for an account and pledge. They make it really easy.
I got lost in the mid thread complaining/ hug fest etc. Any chance you could say if a general space type map that was being discussed earlier would be available.
I like the look of the grassy plain one and seeing as Games and Gears let me down on their promise to do a generic board suitable for historics this looks like a good replacement. Beer resistant as well - what more could you ask for!
Great job, product looks good and kudos for seeing a good business opportunity that benefits gamers and yourself and following through with it,
Hahaha, complaining and hug fest, that sums it up succinctly! Oh interwebz!
But anyway, thanks, we did see an opportunity for a niche and went for it and we are super excited to see it going so strong!
'Grassy Plains' will work really well for historicals! We tried to make it as ubiquitous as possible to appeal to a wide range of games.
We will make a space mat for sure, it is just a matter of when. We got bombarded with requests for the 4x4' space mat and to a lesser extent, the 4x6'. We may hit it with the KS if we continue to run hot (the stretch goal is fairly high) but if not in this KS, then certainly after the product is launched.
The Urban is awesome and my Cities of Death terrain is all buildings on 12"x12" pieces so it will fit in nicely on the board! Can we pick ours up at LVO? I'm looking at getting the Urban and Wasteland depending on color of the desert. Great product and exactly what I need!
A quick couple of questions since I have been drooling over these mats since I found the kickstarter.
- Will there be a "I need all 4 March delivery " because I wanted to get the February but apparently you only like 25 people!
- I live in Denmark which is part of the EU. How will I be affected by taxes? I.e. will there be some sort of import tax or will it be shipped from within the EU or?
Hope you guys make a tax free March bundle I can jump on
Glad you like them! You can also buy the mats individually and if you get them while the Feb delivery is still available, you are good to go!
We are setting up Swedish distribution, so the mats will be shipped to you from there. Your taxes and duties would be adjusted appropriately for that type of transaction. I don't know Sweden to Denmark trade laws (or within the EU as appropriate) off the top of my head, sorry. You may have to look that one up.
And inside the EU it's like the Wild West - anything goes - so there shouldn't be any taxes when it's comming from the Swedes (the Danes arch nemesis' btw).
You know with all this talk about fire lanes and urban mat (which I like BTW and pledged for). The angle of the roads doesn't actually change anything about there being or not being fire lanes it just changes the deployments that benefit from them. If you want to eliminate fire lanes you could put in circle or square drives (just like Las Vegas!)
Not a great drawing but you get the idea. the only real change you would need is the central park area would be more limited (aka not as much building placement variety) and it would still line up with the existing mat. If you guys decide to make such a mat I would have to up my pledge and get both. It also would allow you to make the mats asymmetric without removing your deployment grids completely.
Either way I am very pleased with what you guys are doing and I look forward ti the blasted lands mat unlocking to see what it looks like.
It is a War-torn Battlefield in the Ruins of a City guys, use some imagination if you don't like the fire lanes block them off with terrain. The roads wouldn't be all nice a clean with Ruined Buildings on every corner any ways. Have some fun and forge that narrative.
Stuff like...
-or-
-or-
-or-
-or-
-or even-
haha, I've inspired myself finding these images, I think I will gather up all my bits and make a couple cool blockades myself.
Most of those (except the last ) are low Dugg, so don't really block LOS to many things. The 5-mat Apocalypse layout shows the "LOS to infinity" pretty well (at least for anything tall).
Just responding to your post, I agree barricades are a good idea.
Yeah, that was a point I was trying to make, too. No matter the angles of the streets, you still have fire lanes....they just go at different angles =)
All boards have them, too, it is just on a city they are more visually identifiable as the colors of the roads make them jump out.
But those pics are awesome, Dugg! hahaha, the Stacked Police Cars is going to have to be made!
@Thread
We anticipate 'Barren Wasteland' by the end of the week!
Reecius wrote: All boards have them, too, it is just on a city they are more visually identifiable as the colors of the roads make them jump out.
I agree that many boards have them, however I hope that for the "slanted streets" one that you're working on (or thinking of working on if the funding gets hit, etc!) you would make the roads more intricate to counteract this (since the only reason to keep them so few and so straight is to have multiple boards link up, or to use as deployment guides, neither of which applies to a slanted street board).
Just as an example, not something I'd want you to duplicate... but basically streets that don't go from one side of the board to the other on the slanted setup. If they did, I agree the fire lines would not be all that improved, but more intricate streets can cut them off (like happens in many cities where a street dead-ends into a plaza, or other features keep it from being a grid).
Ignore the scale measurements as this was for 15mm:
Looking forward to seeing the WIP / sketch of the slanted street one, if you do decide you're able to show it!
The huge fire lanes do become an issue, especially in smaller scales. I picked up the DZC cityscape and, after test flitting it on the work bench, ended up picking up some cheap plastic cars and making roadblocks out of old forgeworld sprues to break up the LOS or at least provide some cover.
Yeah in our games of Dropzone Commander that is one of the larger bummers, too :-/ especially with some units having unlimited range! I'll have to add some sprue roadblocks, that's a good idea
RiTides wrote: Yeah in our games of Dropzone Commander that is one of the larger bummers, too :-/ especially with some units having unlimited range! I'll have to add some sprue roadblocks, that's a good idea
Agreed on the range. In Heavy Gear, unlimited is the most common upper range bracket so the issue is important (although admittedly most people don't fire at that range due to penalties). It's not a great pic but I found a pic from my review of the set that shows the forgeworld leftover sprue roadblock. I don't know how well it'll work for 28mm scale like Reecius is making though as I suspect the largest roadblocks I had (Contemptor dread bits) would only cover one lane of traffic.
Well good thing almost nothing has unlimited range in 40K, right?
But again, thanks for the suggestions guys. We are working hard on finishing 'Barren Wasteland' now, and should have the 4x4' Mats next week as they aren't built from the ground up, but are adjustments to what we have to make them look ace on the smaller surface!
Not sideways it isn't. Look at the long stretches going down the bridge pieces.
edit: I edited the pic above to show what I'm talking about. I didn't actually mean exactly 81" but the parts I noted above should be significantly longer stretches of open road than 24". Either way, it's a simple joke and I didn't mean for it to derail the thread (hence the edits above and here instead of a new post.
edit #2: Ah.. there is the source of confusion. I figured the 24' was a typo and you meant inches.
Looking forward to seeing the WIP / sketch of the slanted street one, if you do decide you're able to show it!
That's great - exactly the sort of thing I'd love to see on a mat for urban (non-angled) streets as it's still modular to link up with others on the edges, and is filled with those tricky road angles that you don't/can't easily get with the modular tile systems out there - but could with a printed mat.
Reece,
I think that the 4x4 Urban combat map gives the level designers a great opportunity to play. At the 4x4 size, it would be very tile-able.
I can't wait to see the wasteland and 4x4 maps... Reece, Frankie, Todd (in China) and Jugless Donson... keep up the good work!
For Oz distribution, we need to hit a certain volume of orders in order to justify sending a large number of Mats to Oz from China to then distribute. So long as we hit those numbers, we will do it, we already have it ready to go. If we don't we can't as we'd be sending a large quantity of product to just sit there.
So, I do not have a solid answer on that yet, but will as we get closer to funding.
Are you guys really not seeing that Table 1,3 & 5 have perfect areas in their center lines to place blocking terrain? Also in Apoc if you're playing Mass points you would only have about 10-15% terrain tops per table, not the standard 25%+ or you start having issues with your Titans, Flyers and other Superheavies.
Reecius wrote: For Oz distribution, we need to hit a certain volume of orders in order to justify sending a large number of Mats to Oz from China to then distribute. So long as we hit those numbers, we will do it, we already have it ready to go. If we don't we can't as we'd be sending a large quantity of product to just sit there.
So, I do not have a solid answer on that yet, but will as we get closer to funding.
@Anpu
Thanks!
No worries - I guess it's a bit of a chicken & egg situation. I'll have to stay the former or the time being, but hopefully it gets resolved.
Dugg wrote: Are you guys really not seeing that Table 1,3 & 5 have perfect areas in their center lines to place blocking terrain? Also in Apoc if you're playing Mass points you would only have about 10-15% terrain tops per table, not the standard 25%+ or you start having issues with your Titans, Flyers and other Superheavies.
We had a set-back as we had to adjust the Alpine before sending it to the factory so Barren Wastelands will be here Tuesday it looks like! The 4x4's will be done right after that.
In backer update #12, Todd visits the factory and gives everyone an overview of the process. Turns out that printing shadows on snow (and getting it to look right) is hard! Also, there is a sneak-peak at the storage bag! <insert joke about shrinkage here>
yeah,
OK I didn't read the 9 pages.
I popped back in and the new designs look great.
Did the logo thing get resolved?
They seem very noticeable to me.
In the apocalypse time photo I can see the white logo splodge on all mats. and that's in a photo taken from quite some distance. I imagine they would jump out even more if i was up close in person.
If it's your honest opinion that no one ever notices them?
I don't see why you would have a problem removing them from the mat?
They've made it clear it's going to stay, Panic, just FYI.
This has been doing quite well and I think there's a chance the starfield and slanted urban streets will unlock! Would love to see previews as we get close to them, if available
Panic wrote: yeah,
OK I didn't read the 9 pages.
I popped back in and the new designs look great.
Did the logo thing get resolved?
They seem very noticeable to me.
In the apocalypse time photo I can see the white logo splodge on all mats. and that's in a photo taken from quite some distance. I imagine they would jump out even more if i was up close in person.
If it's your honest opinion that no one ever notices them?
I don't see why you would have a problem removing them from the mat?
Panic...
Panic,
I haven't seen the mats in person, but this is probably the best picture that shows the scale of the logos.
It is up to each person, but I don't hold it against Nike or New Balance from putting their logo on the shoes I buy. I certainly think that Frontline and TableWar are entitled to place their brand on one of their products as well. Like I said, it is up to you if you want to buy it after seeing the pictures of the product (logo and all).
As far as perception... there is a difference between hearing and listening. I'm sure that my wife says a lot more than what I listen to. Seeing is the same way. You can see the logos, but in the heat of the game I'm pretty sure that I won't notice that they are there.
As Anpu-adom pointed out, we had a delay at the factory. Our partner there, Todd, saw the first sample Alpine come off of the line and it had purple shadows! So, we had to double time to fix it.
That set us back a few days, so Barren Wasteland will be done Tuesday. It stinks but it was necessary to ensure the Alpine mats were up to standard. That is one of the benefits of having eyes on the project. If they would have been shipped here wrong, it would have been a disaster!
But, all is well and the Alpine look fantastic.
4x4's will be done shortly thereafter.
We honestly may not get the Space and Urban angled done before funding, just to be forthright with everyone. We will do our best to do so, but with the few delays and our tight schedule, it may not happen until after funding.
@Panic
As has been discussed at length, the logos wills tay, but they are tiny.
Yes, in 100% honesty I can say that the majority of the people that come in to our store and see the 2 prototypes, no one has mentioned the logos unless I point to them.
The images of the Urban Mats are not actual mats. As I state on the photo, they are a photo-shopped image to show what 5 mats would look like, those are not real. It was just a cool way to show why straight streets are fun.
We want the logo so people who see the mat can then identify who made them so they know where to get one. It is branding. We felt it was done tastefully. We are gamers too, and value aesthetics, so we struck what we thought was a good balance. Besides, we;re proud of what we made, too!
Anyway, I hope that answers your questions. Feel free to shoot me more if you have any additionally.
@Reece,
Don't forget to mention that wave #1 of the Grassy Plains and Blast Zone mats will be finished within a day or two of the kickstarter closing! That is super huge and exciting!!!
(And how international shipping works, etc... no, no one gets their mats early!)
Haha, we should hire you, Anpu-adom, you are on point!
But yes, we will have the first run of mats in our hands in January! Everyone will have their mats super fast!
I will also have a physical Urban Combat and Alpine prototype in my hands Thursday! So anyone that wants to come to the shop can see them for themselves! And we will of course be busting out bat reps with them, soon!
yeah,
Sorry, not interested in them if branded. I don't want visible branding... no matter how small.
If people don't notice them.. you should get rid of them, they are blocking sales!
If they are truly so tiny people never see them I don't see why you don't ditch them.
If you must have your name somewhere, which seems very egotistical, why can't you stick your brand on the back of the mats instead of the gaming surface?
Also If someone wants to know about a mat/mini/base/paint/whatever in this hobby the owner is always happy to tell them!!
@Panic
You know branding has a positive too. That is the company that produces the mat will try to make them the longest lasting and best product they can as a crappy mat with their brand will not get sales. Not that I don't think Reece will do that anyways but it is a form of insurance.
If the brand bothers me then I will put a piece of terrain on it. Problem fixed. With 25% of the board covered in terrain it shouldn't be a problem.
Sorry we won't be earning your business, but no hard feelings.
@ansacs
Exactly, the logo is tiny, people are truly overreacting to it. It's there for folks who look to see who made it. The focal point of the mat is the middle, typically, where the models and terrain tend to be.
When people see them in real life, they will understand. We are not worried about it impacting sales at all, honestly. Not a single person that has seen them in real life has had anything negative to say about it.
But hey, I have people telling me a million different things on how to make these better, often directly conflicting advice
So long as people are having fun playing games on the mats we made, then we are proud of what we did and I have no doubt that will be exactly what happens.
Reece perhaps you should post pictures of the mats blank and with stuff on them in a diorama...then with a big flashing title showing how a small shack or crater can be used to hide the evil mark of corporate corruption...er, frontline/tablewar brands.
I'm still not a backer yet (sorry!), because, as I've mentioned before, the only mat concept that appeals to my particular needs would be an urban mat with diagonal streets. I'd love to put in a pledge to help try to get to the $80k level to unlock the urban mat 2, but I notice that you mentioned the urban mat 2 with diagonal streets will be tileable with the urban mat 1 design.
That kind of scares me, as looking at the Urban 1 road designs, if you're forcing your diagonal roads to have to match up with those, then I'm having a hard time imagining how the street designs would be pleasing.
I know you don't have anything official worked up for the urban mat 2 yet, but is there any way you could post a rough sketch outline of how you see the roads working out on the urban 2 mat? Because I would hate to pledge, get the urban 2 mat unlocked and then not have the design work for me and regret it later.
If I said the two mats would be tileable I misspoke or you misunderstood as we have no plans for that to occur. The current Urban Combat mats are tileable, and the 4x4' will tile with them, but that is as far as we've gotten.
And we'd love your pledge, of course, but as stated, due to an unforseen manufacturing issue that had to addressed, we've lost 3 vital days of design time and may not have the second Urban Combat mat ready before funding.
If I said the two mats would be tileable I misspoke or you misunderstood as we have no plans for that to occur. The current Urban Combat mats are tileable, and the 4x4' will tile with them, but that is as far as we've gotten.
And we'd love your pledge, of course, but as stated, due to an unforseen manufacturing issue that had to addressed, we've lost 3 vital days of design time and may not have the second Urban Combat mat ready before funding.
I figured based on what you've been saying recently that any design for the urban 2 mat would not be able to be rolled out before the end of the KS, which is kind of why I'm asking now...because if the urban mat 2 will fill my needs, then I'd love to help out by pledging. Everything I've seen of your other mat styles (including the urban mat 1) I tend to like, so I really just want to know what your thinking is going to be regarding how the streets on the urban 2 mat will be laid out. If there's any way you can kind of express that in a line drawing I'd love to see that, even if you want to just PM or email it to me if you prefer.
The guys have been going till like 5am on designs, they are actually very labor intensive to make them as detailed as they are. So, if possible, I promise that I will get those sketches up ASAP but it may not happen. We're at maximum burn right now.
We would love your support, thanks for considering our project,
@RiTides
Ah, I see that, I will correct that. Thanks for pointing that out.
L0rdF1end wrote: If I pledge will you un-ban Grimoire from Las Vega Open?
Since Grimoire isn't banned at LVO, I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem. (Feast of Blades has proposed banning it, but I'm sure that Chandler would appreciate your feedback).
Not a single person that has seen them in real life has had anything negative to say about it.
Keep in mind that people are more honest on the internet. It's harder to tell someone that something sucks in person, people don't want to be TFG.
It's quite an expensive purchase, but I could see myself buying one if I felt that it was a premium product. The logo gets in the way of me being able to justify the purchase.
The pic with the scale shot of the logo is not reassuring, "revenant titan for scale" is not exactly the best way to convince people that it's small. :p
I would rather have a 4-foot long logo on the carrying case for the mat than a 4cm long logo on the mat itself.
Haha, people are more honest on the internet? That is one way to look at it.
They also tend to be a lot more reactionary as well, and often can be much more rude than they would in real life (not saying that applies to anyone here, I am just speaking in general terms).
But, logically, who's opinions do you think is more representative of the facts: someone who has only seen a picture or something or someone that has seen it in real life? For example, you do not trust the scale picture with a Rev, and infantry (and I included large and small models to show the difference) but what would you have us do about that? I have taken multiple pictures showing how small it is but in the end you have to see it for yourself to really understand how hard to notice it is on the actual mats. You only see it if you are looking for it.
The folks that have come on to play on it have not said anything about it, and I have asked everyone to give me their point blank, honest opinion. If you believe that information or not is up to you, there really isn't a lot more I can do.
If you like it, get it! It's a great product. If not, no worries. But I can say for sure, the logo is very, very minor.
How easy is it to paint over the logo anyway, any examples? Would paint even stick?
Also, do you plan on UK/ EU distribution at retail?
I probably will have a look at one IRL before buying, come to think of it, that's a fair point you raise. I have been checking the KS periodically to see if the desert mat renders are up since that's the one I'd have most interest in.
I honestly can't answer that question as I have never tried to paint ours (they are only two!) although my guess would be that it may be difficult to do as it is flexible material treated with a water resistant coating. I don't know though, really, I imagine that perhaps spray paint could do it, or an airbrush (I would recommend using a stencil to avoid over-spray.
Here is a pic of how small the stupid logo is and how easy it is to cover! haha, I mean, if you find it distasteful that is a personal opinion but I assure you, the thing is TINY.
The barrier that covers it is less than a 1/2" thick.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Per the KS, we do have European distribution set up, they will ship out of Sweden.Desert should be up today, actually, I am very eagerly awaiting it, myself!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the dimensions of the logo is in total about 0.4" x 3.75"? It is very small.
^ That's a good point, the high contrast of the white is the main thing that stands out as jarring to me, although on the alpine map the black would be the part that is jarring.
Perhaps the logo colours could be modified on each different mat? Maybe lose the white interior and replace black with dark green on the grass mat and brown on the desert map, something like that.
If you look at logos on TV stations these days they tend to have a semi-transparent white-ish logo in the corner or something rather than something high-contrast and solid. It's a compromise made between having visible branding, but not having it visually distracting. Just a possible idea for a tweak.
Of course, you're probably sick of hearing about the logo at this point, I just wanted to finish up with something potentially constructive rather than an aimless rant/ ramble.
Love it with the fence in place but that's not usually where I put terrain (i.e. where there's no room to hide behind it and still be on the board)
And I think the white is what pulls me out, too. As squig said, it's more of the "premium product" factor for me, as well- something like this alone wouldn't keep me from buying it, but when it's on the line price-wise at about $100, it is a factor (for me at least, and a number of others, although that isn't quantifiable).
One question would be, is the number of people put off by the logo offset by those who buy the product because of the logo (since they can easily see who made it without having to ask or see the packaging)? There won't ever be a way to know, but just from those who have posted there are half a dozen or so in this thread (although most won't post). Not enough to sway Frontline, obviously... so we'll never know the difference that including it or not would have made.
BTW I would use a small shack or power station to cover it. I tend to place small buildings near corners to "finish" maps off so they look like they are part of a whole.
) pledge in to make it a reality! I have found that is a lot more effective strategy than complaining! 
