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 Reecius wrote:
@Ri-Tides

Yeah, we want to give people what they want for sure, as you said, it only makes sense.

The trick is to do that while being realistic. We have gotten over 30 requests for different styles of mats and everyone feels that what they think is the coolest mat is the coolest mat, period! hahaha, and often the follow up sentiment is that we're business dumb-dumbs if we don't see it that way, too!

You most certainly are business Dumb-Dumbs. You should do my idea, give everyone mats for free! But seriously, these look great.

I look forward to seeing the Urban design! I'm with Yak and all the others about the virtues of a diagonal building/road alignment on a city/ruin board (and I find them a lot more aesthetically appealing as well, as to me an angled city layout always looks more like a slice of a real place, whereas buildings set up exactly parallel to the table edges always look more like a game board), but I expect that you've come up with a cool and functional design.

 Kroothawk wrote:
So what is it with the shiping costs and distribution.
Will there be a European distributor for kickstarter products?
Will it still be 15$ extra postage (per mat or per order)?

Did Kroothawk's questions (above) ever get answered?

@Ruglud

I didn't mean to sound dismissive either, hope it didn't come across that way. We have had a few requests for the 4x8' size and if it is popular enough and we can do it cost effectively at the manufacturing level, we will!

Thanks for the input.

@RiTides

You are right, and I apologize if it feels like I am fighting you guys it's just that for one, no one has seen the Urban Design we have yet and we're already getting requests to change it! Haha, I hope you can understand that it really doesn't make sense to scrap something that has been worked on for weeks just off of a few commentors in a thread on a forum (not to put anyone down, but in comparison to the overall volume of feedback we get, this is only one part of it).

We've invested a lot of time, energy and money into the current design and it was very meticulously thought out. I'm not saying it will be everyone's absolute favorite, but it will be extremely functional for game-play and it looks really nice. And despite what people may think, it is actually not at all easy to make that big of a change to a design that is as intricate as this one, quickly.

We're doing the final detail work now and it will be done on Monday!

Like I said too, if it is popular enough to make angled streets (and please bear in mind that a few voices on a forum do not necessarily make a majority) we'll make the angled road mat, too! After Space mats, that is the most common request. So we plan on following through with it.

End of the day, we'll make what you all want so long as the support is there. You can count on that.

@Whitedragon

Oh, my favorite response we've gotten on the net has been: "You should have made them in America, and I think you are charging too much."

.......

Hahaha. So many people have opinions like that, which are funny. We were able to make them this inexpensively only because we manufactured in China. If we were to have made them in the USA (which with their minium volumes we couldn't afford to do , period), the cost would be MUCH higher. Can't have both, unfortunately.

It's opinions such as those that can be difficult to work through as sometimes people have totally unrealistic expectations. It's all part of the process, though!

@Mannahnin

Duly noted, thanks for your input. Angled roads can look sweet and as I have stated, we plan on working on such a design down the road. The current one I think will please people as well.

And yes, I believe I did answer Kroothawk's questions already, but for completeness:

All shipping costs are up on the KickStarter. For domestic (USA) purchases, shipping is included in the cost.

We are working on European Distribution and feel that it is about 95% likely to occur, and will be shipping from Sweden.

The price is per mat (they are fairly heavy and if we had the extra charge per order, we could potentially lose a ton of money on a large order)) but, as I told Kroothawk, we can work with people who make group orders on an individual basis. I advised him to PM the details of his order and we could work soothing out.

@Thread

Alpine Unlocked! Nice, wow this is going faster than anticipated! Thanks so much for the support everyone! The Alpine mat will be available to view next week!

Not at all Reesius, all is cool

 Reecius wrote:
A 4x8' mat would require an entirely new mold, a new production run, and a much higher price due to increased shipping and materials used. We have not plans for that size mat at this time.

Although if you could come up with some sort of clip-on strip that would hold the edges of two 4x4 mats together, that would essentially fit the bill, and would save producing a larger mat that would be in much smaller demand than the other two sizes...

If the mat material is rigid enough, possibly even just a strip of velcro on the underside would do the job... which could potentially also serve to hold closed when rolled...

It looks like Alpine funded!
That makes 4 of the original patterns:
Grassy Plains
Blast Zone
Urban Combat
And Alpine

Leaving just Barren Wasteland of the traditional 5 funding at $30,000

According to Kicktraq, this project is funding towards $135,000.

Why not make urban terrain mat with no roads and then make printed roads on same material a further KS goal. Even if I didn't get the mat I would buy the roads as there are no good packaged roads out there right now (since the GW ones went OOP) and your material with printing seams like it would work good.

Reecius, it's no problem, but just note that you gave the impression the other designs were done and thus couldn't be changed; this one isn't done and so better to suggest it now seemingly. If when it is shown it is said it can't be changed, I'd just like to note the suggestion was made, by many, now.

I know you've been working on it, but if you can't take feedback before Or after showing them, when can you take it?

I think you'd do better to leave out the "We get so many suggestions and people diss us if we can't do them" and simply say instead "thank you for the suggestion". I just pointed out that a dozen or more people have liked that idea in this thread to illustrate that point.

No one is dissing your design, it hasn't been shown. Instead, they're telling you what they'd like. If you can't do it, no problem, just don't diss your customers or imply 1000 things are being demanded of you guys here. One good suggestion has been noted by many, it is your call to listen to that or simply say you can't; as it seems is unfortunately the case unless you raise enough to do it as a separate mat after all your other goals.

@Ruglug


@Insaniak

That's a good idea. The join wouldn't be perfect though, there would be a seam running between the two pieces which may bug some people.

And, we'd still have to make a new mold and new run for the 2x4' sections, plus find a factory to do the Velcro, and source the materials. Totally doable, but the solution may actually be more complex than the problem in this case.

Still, a cool idea though, I will look further into it.

@Anpu-adom

Yeah, it looks like we will for sure hit Barren Wasteland at the very least, I think the 4x4' mats are going to happen, too! It's awesome to see it grow!

@Grimgob

That is a really good idea and we actually had someone else suggest the same things with area terrain markers, such as for woods and such. We're definitely going to look into that concept. As stated though for those specific mat, the Urban Combat mat, we have to finish it by Monday in order to stay on our production schedule or the entire project gets thrown off track. The mats actually take a LOT of time to design, it isn't a quick process at all.

That said, we are open to more designs and will certainly look into that as we go forward.

@RiTides

Fair point, I did sound like the designs were done, in the video I said they were prepared and perhaps that was the wrong word to use. I said it because we had already gotten the idea for the layout and the rough designs down and have been working on them for some time and so in my mind they are "done" in terms of concept if not actually finished with the fine detail work. Sorry if it was confusing.

We always take feedback, for sure, but due to the physical limitations of design, manufacturing and shipping, we are pretty dang fixed in our path for this first production run.

However, if a good idea comes we will absolutely run with it. As stated, we're going to follow through on the Space Mat and the angled road mat too, if the popularity is there. We put it at the end of the KickStarter not because it isn't a valuable idea, but because, as stated, we have a fairly rigid production schedule. We'd have to interrupt what we've already committed to doing which may please a few, but it would simultaneously disappoint a great many.

I understand what you're saying about being polite, and I feel that I am very much so, but I also like to mix in some realism so that people understand our side of the process, too. Just like with tournament organization you tend to get a lot of folks telling you what you should do that maybe don't have enough information to really be qualified to say anything quantitative on the topic in the first place. It is really hard to point that out without coming across as being rude. And in that specific instance you mention, I wasn't trying to diss you or anyone else, I was just trying to point out that if a number of people in a thread in a forum agree on something, it may feel in that context like a majority, but it often isn't (although it can actually represent a majority opinion but we need more data to be sure). I was just trying to illustrate that point, not put anyone down. If I were to just repeat, "thanks for the suggestion" over and over, while polite, people would eventually press for more and a "why aren't you acting on this?" would inevitably come up. I figure it's better to give some real information on why we are taking the stance we are so that folks can hopefully understand our intentions. And we simply can't react to every suggestion, you know? There are limitations we work within that prohibit that.

I am fielding questions on the project here, other forums, podcasts, twitter,Kickstarter, our site, our forums, facebook, multiple email accounts, etc. and the opinions differ all over the place on what is the "right" way to go with this KS and a lot of them are contradictory. We literally can't appease everyone, and I just try to illustrate that the opinions expressed here may not be universal, is all. Again, not trying to diss anyone, just presenting a dose of the reality we see on our side of the project to hopefully make things more understandable to everyone else.

And honestly, it's awesome that people are giving feedback because it means they're excited about the project! That's rad.

Is there anything in the pipeline you can talk about in terms of add-ons? I ask because they would really inject some upward momentum in the campaign.

As it is, we're in kind of an odd middle ground of needing to hit a higher amount to unlock some designs but the only thing to pledge is full mats which many people will only need one maybe two of.

Just curious

Can't wait to see the Alpine design, which is the one I'm most excited for.

 Eldarain wrote:
Is there anything in the pipeline you can talk about in terms of add-ons? I ask because they would really inject some upward momentum in the campaign.

As it is, we're in kind of an odd middle ground of needing to hit a higher amount to unlock some designs but the only thing to pledge is full mats which many people will only need one maybe two of.

Just curious

Can't wait to see the Alpine design, which is the one I'm most excited for.

Yeah, that is a really good point and something I have been thinking about a lot, myself. We have a big jump to get to the 4x4' mats because it is pretty much starting an entirely new project. New molds, new jigs, new art, etc. Easier because we've done it once, but it requires a ton of money to raise the capital we need to order the minimum numbers to make them 4x4' mats at all. Our strategy to this point has been to expose the KickStarter to a wider audience and get enough people to buy mats to trigger the jump to the 4x4' size which I still think is a sound plan. We are reaching out all over the place to try and raise awareness of the project.

If we had mid level goals that would help a lot as you pointed out, but then it takes money away from getting to the 4x4' mats which make the process take longer! Bit of a catch 22.

We have a ton of ideas for accessories and add-ons, but having actually gone through this process and seeing how difficult it can be, we don't want to dangle a carrot for an idea for a product that we actually have no idea how to make, you know? It's tough because in a lot of KSs you see them talk about grand dreams and big ideas with no real way of making it happen which is dangerous. We don't want to say we can do something we can't. We want to establish a reputation for following through.

So, we are hesitant to talk about our expansion ideas until we are more confident in the practical side of cost, production, etc.

That was a long winded explanation, hahaha, but hopefully it at least partially answers your question. I think the best I can say is that we aren't discussing add-ons just yet as we have our hands full, but hopefully in the near future.

 Reecius wrote:
And, we'd still have to make a new mold and new run for the 2x4' sections,

I actually meant to join two 4x4s together, as you already had mentioned those as a stretch goal. Although if you could make some sort of joiner available for any of the mats, that would enable people to configure them however they want anyway...


And yeah, the joint would't be perfect, but that's not really any different to all those tables with configurable terrain tiles, or set up like the Realm of Battle with separate sections.

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood you.

Actually, that is a really good idea. And, since the mats have a rubber back, you really wouldn't even need the Velcro. You could just lay down two next to one another.

 Reecius wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

Spoiler:

Is there anything in the pipeline you can talk about in terms of add-ons? I ask because they would really inject some upward momentum in the campaign.

As it is, we're in kind of an odd middle ground of needing to hit a higher amount to unlock some designs but the only thing to pledge is full mats which many people will only need one maybe two of.

Just curious

Can't wait to see the Alpine design, which is the one I'm most excited for.

Spoiler:

Yeah, that is a really good point and something I have been thinking about a lot, myself. We have a big jump to get to the 4x4' mats because it is pretty much starting an entirely new project. New molds, new jigs, new art, etc. Easier because we've done it once, but it requires a ton of money to raise the capital we need to order the minimum numbers to make them 4x4' mats at all. Our strategy to this point has been to expose the KickStarter to a wider audience and get enough people to buy mats to trigger the jump to the 4x4' size which I still think is a sound plan. We are reaching out all over the place to try and raise awareness of the project.

If we had mid level goals that would help a lot as you pointed out, but then it takes money away from getting to the 4x4' mats which make the process take longer! Bit of a catch 22.

We have a ton of ideas for accessories and add-ons, but having actually gone through this process and seeing how difficult it can be, we don't want to dangle a carrot for an idea for a product that we actually have no idea how to make, you know? It's tough because in a lot of KSs you see them talk about grand dreams and big ideas with no real way of making it happen which is dangerous. We don't want to say we can do something we can't. We want to establish a reputation for following through.

So, we are hesitant to talk about our expansion ideas until we are more confident in the practical side of cost, production, etc.

That was a long winded explanation, hahaha, but hopefully it at least partially answers your question. I think the best I can say is that we aren't discussing add-ons just yet as we have our hands full, but hopefully in the near future.

@Eldarian

Yeah, if we stall we will definitely think of some cool ideas to get it fired up again. Thanks for the ideas you sent my way, too! Much appreciated.

@thread

Urban Combat and Alpine mats unlocked for pledge levels! We have limited quantities guaranteed for February so jump on these if you want one while they're hot!

No worries, though you might get sick of PMs from me with more ideas...

ETA on the Urban teaser image?

 Reecius wrote:
Urban Combat and Alpine mats unlocked for pledge levels! We have limited quantities guaranteed for February so jump on these if you want one while they're hot!

I might ... if I knew what they looked like

@Eldarian

Hey, no worries, all ideas are welcome! We may not use them all of course, but you never know where a great idea will come from.

@Kroothawk

Hahaha, fair enough! Our design schedule didn't keep up with the KS's popularity (obviously) but the Urban Combat mat will be done by Monday (PST) and Alpine shortly thereafter.

Sorry for the delay! We thought we'd have more time to prepare but hey, as problems go, this is one I am happy to have.

There is a bit of nay saying so here is my honest opinion.

It's more expensive than cloth mats, but cloth mats are lower quality in appearance, less durable, and tend to slide around making them less functional.

High quality mats don't look as good as well painted and flocked 3d tables like realm of battle or custom created tables , but 3d tables take a huge amount of time and money to create, your product is more durable, more portable, and a flat surface is far more functional as a gaming table.

Over all verdict: You have the competition beat in the categories of functionality as a play table + durability, it's top tier in portability + ready to play without painting, and are in a sweet spot when it comes to cost + appearance. I would wish you good luck but you probably don't need it with a product that will eventually sell it's self.

They look great I would order one now but I already spent a lot in November and don't want to pick up wife agro for spending too much on gaming right before the holidays.

Using as many as possible for tables at the Las Vegas open would convince a lot of people to buy one and generate a ton of word of mouth about the quality of the product. Plus a lot of the battle report pictures will be on your product. You could probably also tell a lot of units at the Las Vegas open. I would even buy a used in tournament like new mat at retail - shipping.

Probably a low priority, but would be interested in seeing an ocean style mat. Play Uncharted Seas and Dystopian Wars and would like to see a good ocean mat. We use the Dreadfleet cloth, but that is 3.5 x 5. Would like to get a full table mat.

 silent25 wrote:
Probably a low priority, but would be interested in seeing an ocean style mat. Play Uncharted Seas and Dystopian Wars and would like to see a good ocean mat. We use the Dreadfleet cloth, but that is 3.5 x 5. Would like to get a full table mat.

The only competition in naval combat games is the dread fleet map which requires a purchase of that over priced lemon of a game.

It would be easy to blow this out of the water.



I think a space mat for battle fleet gothic, wxing, and firestorm armada would sell even better. X wing miniatures from fantasy flight games is a big game right now with a rabid fan base.

Imagine playing a game on this instead of a black sheet

The Urban combat map is up... wow. It really looks impressive, and the guys did a good job of laying out the semi-grid.

All of the base patterns have now funded, but that's not the big news.
Because of feedback, they have dropped the level of funding required for the 4x4 mats to just $40K for the first two and $45k for all 5 designs!!! This is huge because it means that they are making a big gamble on purchasing the tools and dies to make the 4x4 mat without fully funding it first.

I will wait for the diagonal street version, as this one stands in the way of arranging terrain without open firelines as expected.

BTW who needs 4x4 mats except a few X-Wing players?

 Kroothawk wrote:
I will wait for the diagonal street version, as this one stands in the way of arranging terrain without open firelines as expected.

BTW who needs 4x4 mats except a few X-Wing players?

Mostly people that non-GW games. The 4x4 mat covers Warmahordes, Infinity, Malifaux, X-Wing, Brushfire, maybe Mantic (can't comment, never played anything beyond Dreadball), smaller games of Flames of War, Bolt Action, etc...

The best way to get to that diagonal street pattern would be to back the project and let people know about it. You can always pull your money out near the end if you aren't able to get what you want.

The horizontal streets make me want to see the diagonal streets even more!

Yeah, the horizontal streets look as disappointing as predicted/feared!

Still, hopefully this is successful and the diagonal version shows up somewhere... down the road.

People don't like playing on roads because they are predictable fire lanes, but that's kind of the entire point of urban combat.

Roads don't have to stay clear fire lanes. A TO can add small chunks of aegis as a check points and tank wrecks from a previous battle.

Let's see how the urban looks with terrain on top.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, the horizontal streets look as disappointing as predicted/feared!

Still, hopefully this is successful and the diagonal version shows up somewhere... down the road.

Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not disappointed in the horizontal streets. I think that they look awesome, I just think that diagonal streets would play better.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I think a space mat for battle fleet gothic, wxing, and firestorm armada would sell even better. X wing miniatures from fantasy flight games is a big game right now with a rabid fan base.

Imagine playing a game on this instead of a black sheet

Vinyl maps... 4'x6' for $40 including shipping. Obviously they're not as durable as what reecius is presenting here but the option does exist.

Anpu-adom wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, the horizontal streets look as disappointing as predicted/feared!

Still, hopefully this is successful and the diagonal version shows up somewhere... down the road.

Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not disappointed in the horizontal streets. I think that they look awesome, I just think that diagonal streets would play better.

I wasn't?

I guess the only thing I am currently misunderstanding is maybe that you misunderstood and thought that I was talking about your level of satisfaction instead of my own?