So, in the course of a different thread, a number of strains of thought weaved together.
1) The overwhelming majority of Imperium technology is from STCs
2) While a lot of these STCs are powerful, they usually lack features other advanced races have (example- Necrons, Eldar, D Eldar, and Tau all have vehicles that hover... and not as a gimmick, but as the standard). I couldn't name one off the top of my head from the Imperium except for the Land Speeder of the Space Marines [I could be wrong, and if so be polite when pointing that out]... especially one that sees widespread use. A Baneblade may be very capable, but it isn't very technologically advanced. It has a searchlight, not night vision gear. It has a really big gun, not one that fires with particularly nasty projectile velocity (like a railgun) or with a particular adeptness at bypassing armor (gauss or lances)
3)Humanity makes use of a number of rare yet (presumably) reproducible technologies like digital weapons, vortex grenades, grav weapons (if you're kind enough to realize their supposed rareness has nothing whatsoever to what tabletop actually looks like) Some of which have definite alien origins (digital weapons) while we're given evidence of knowledge of some from before/during the Great Crusade (grav weapons) and are (to my knowledge) completely unaware of how others are made (vortex grenades)
4) The AdMech has command of most of humanity's technology, and thus, any information on the difference between xenotech and archeotech is based one on of two sources of knowledge- empirical evidence or the word of the incredibly secretive Admech
For any piece of archeotech, why should we believe it was actually human technology? Why should we believe, even if it was at one point human, that xenos weren't instrumental in its development?
After all, we know very, very little about the "Dark" Age of Technology, past that there was a great robot rebellion and that the Emperor of Mankind lived through it.
How could *any*one tell if the AdMech isn't just making up the difference based on how harmful they think the tech would be to humanity and if they could get caught passing xenotech off as human?
Its very likely, almost certain, that mankind traded technology with aliens countless times over the last 30,000 years.
But ultimately, that doesn't matter. The Ad Mech doesn't care if technology came originally or in part from aliens, they care if it was sanctified and brought into line with the Omnissiah's grand designs. Thats why they still do research with alien technology and attempt to even reproduce and harness it. But they need to make sure such technology is safe and that its thoroughly tested.
They actually succeeded in reverse engineering Necron Gauss weaponry. But they never implemented it because the power requirements were far too high.
They aren't against all technology. They're just against wild and unrestrained development, after all that nearly led to mankind's extinction on more than one occasion.
And mankind was STUPID advanced during the DAoT. The Borg from ST, Forerunners from Halo, and even the SW Vong would have been club thumping savages compared to DAoT humanity. The Tau are witless apes in comparison.
Plenty of mankinds technology would indeed have been their own.
In one BL book, there is a DAoT ship which had a gun that created black holes.
Humanity has technology even now comparable to the other races. The only races actually more advanced at the moment are Eldar and Necron.
If the question is being asked, evidence to the contrary is what needs to be provided.
Lasguns and bolters instead of anything else.
Machine spirits instead of autonomous drones.
Treaded vehicles instead of skimmers.
Necron fleets routinely trash human fleets much, much larger than themselves.
Eldar are able to manipulate pathways that allow them to completely bypass traveling through the Warp.
The Tau strapped a starship weapon to a fighter plane in, at most, 2.5% of the time it took the AdMech to put metal plates over the cabling in Space Marine armor.
"Comparable to other races." You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Humans have scale. They build things really, really big. Big is not the same as advanced. A Tiger II tank is big. A Bradley is advanced. Conflict between the two ends when the Bradley destroys the other from beyond the other's range, after going across a river the Tiger II can't cross, at speeds the Tiger II can't match... which'd be the exact same if we replaced "Tiger II" with "Land Raider" and "Bradley" with "Falcon or Hammerhead."
Given the mediocre technology humanity gets from STCs, which we *KNOW* comes from STCs, it casts a lot of doubt on the origins of tech we know humanity can't mass-produce from Forge Worlds using STCs.
In armor design, weapon design, humans are ahead of everyone other than necron.
In power supply, travel and fabrication, and ships, humans are behind eldar and necrons.
I am not going to continue to entertain your fetishist notion of tau supremacy. It isn't based on anything but your notion of speed, which itself ignore a host of issues you ignore.
Just because they are ahead technologically doesn't mean they will win every engagement. Even the Romans had problems with the barbarian tribes, and in the end the Barbarians took Rome.
PhillyT wrote: In armor design, weapon design, humans are ahead of everyone other than necron.
In power supply, travel and fabrication, and ships, humans are behind eldar and necrons.
I am not going to continue to entertain your fetishist notion of tau supremacy. It isn't based on anything but your notion of speed, which itself ignore a host of issues you ignore.
Armor design? Really? 3+ saves aren't hard to come by for Eldar, Necrons, or Tau. Neither are 4++ saves.
As for weapons, we've already discussed how a really big gun isn't advanced- it's just big... and with a lot of cool toys the Imperium has found, there's no reason to believe they're anything but monkeys pulling the trigger.
STCs are needed because humanity and the AdMech don't understand how the overwhelming majority of the systems they use work.
Why should we think humanity *ever* understood how to create grav guns or vortex grenades? The only reason you think any of that stuff was human because books say that the AdMech said so. The AdMech couldn't solder some anti-aircraft missiles and a radar onto a rhino chassis... with SIX THOUSAND YEARS to do it. Feats of engineering that are possible in 21st century America are impossible for the Imperium. The AdMech couldn't tell its butt from a hole in the ground.
Weapon wise, the only thing tau have as their claim to fame is the rail gun. You hook an awful lot onto that one item when claiming Tau tech is comparable.
The fact that the imperium can create comparable weapons on the size of rail guns but also weapons of far greater power on larger scales you handwave.
You ignore genetic augmentation and cybernetics so advanced and pervasive as to be widely available to the middle class.
You talk about how far tau technology went in 6000 years while ignoring that, while opposed by the races of the universe, humanity expanded to encompass an area 40,000 times the number of planets as the Tau in under 15,000 years.
One general, Solar Marcharius, managed to carve out a section of space 40 times the size of the Tau empire in 7 years.
Your only defense for the technology seems to be "Maybe the Ad Mech was lying."
That is a ridiculous argument. Prove the Tau aren't just a very detailed menagerie made by Trazyn for the lols. It doesn't say he DIDN'T do it. So it must be true right?
Here is the core of every thought or argument you think you will make or want to: The Imperium of Man has bigger guns, better toys, and more people than the Tau will ever be capable of mustering. They have wizard magic and plot armor the likes of which the universe has never seen. They are the main characters of this little story of ours and will be until GW goes bankrupt in ten years. Deal with it.
I mean, could any of the characters in the novel be reasonably expected to 1) know the difference and 2) be honest about it?
There is absolutely no reason to think it was not a human made ship. The background makes it clear that the most powerful human technology has been lost hence why the Imperium relies on lesser (but incredibly efficient) vehicles. Saying that the loss of the vast majority of human technology means that technology was never particularly good is illogical.
I'd like to hear background about lone Hammerheads taking down Land Raiders with ease. Besides, in the Taros Campaign Imperial Armour books if I recall correctly it says that both Leman Russ Vanquishers and Basilisks in direct fire mode were capable of toe to toe with Hammerheads. That said I don't think Imperial Armour 3 was done well.
You have kind of hit on it. Emp will assume anything good in the Imperium might be alien in origin if it wasn't stated otherwise. Meanwhile, despite almost half of all weaponry being derived from Ion technology (given by an alien race in the fluff itself) he will pretend the Tau are well on their way to glorious self discovery...
Don't worry, Emp will have a reason why that is the smartest thing for them to do and that they will be explode into a massive expansion that sees them clear the entire galactic south east.
I look forward to the rebuttal. Also Titans were created without a STC, something which even the Tau were amazed at the destruction they could wrought.
Humanity created twenty demi gods in a single genetic experiment. It is routine in the imperium to take a 12 year old skin and bones kid dying of radiation sickness and transform him into a nine foot tall immortal unbelievably strong killing machine. On the other hand the Tau can't figure out a way to live past 40. So in genetics I'd say the imperium is way out front of everyone. Since the necrons could not extend their life span and the elves naturally live for thousands of years anyway.
Actually there was a Titan STC, but it was destroyed. The Ad Mech only reproduces existing titans because they have the STC blueprints for them, but the original STC was possessed and had to be destroyed.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, isn't Tau space travel limited, which is why their worlds tend to be close together?
Yup. They can only go a few light years jump at a time, and it takes so long they have to put everyone in stasis. The Tau were actually stupid lucky that their homeworld was in a cluster of densely packed stars, otherwise they'd never have made it beyond their homeworld. Normal galactic star distribution would mean their ships would run out of power long before they made it to the nearest star, let alone nearest star with a habitable planet.
Grey Templar wrote: Actually there was a Titan STC, but it was destroyed. The Ad Mech only reproduces existing titans because they have the STC blueprints for them, but the original STC was possessed and had to be destroyed.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, isn't Tau space travel limited, which is why their worlds tend to be close together?
Yup. They can only go a few light years jump at a time, and it takes so long they have to put everyone in stasis. The Tau were actually stupid lucky that their homeworld was in a cluster of densely packed stars, otherwise they'd never have made it beyond their homeworld. Normal galactic star distribution would mean their ships would run out of power long before they made it to the nearest star, let alone nearest star with a habitable planet.
Did they? Where do they mention that? If its a 30k Admech source it would explain why I missed that.
Grey Templar wrote: Its very likely, almost certain, that mankind traded technology with aliens countless times over the last 30,000 years.
But ultimately, that doesn't matter. The Ad Mech doesn't care if technology came originally or in part from aliens, they care if it was sanctified and brought into line with the Omnissiah's grand designs. Thats why they still do research with alien technology and attempt to even reproduce and harness it. But they need to make sure such technology is safe and that its thoroughly tested.
They actually succeeded in reverse engineering Necron Gauss weaponry. But they never implemented it because the power requirements were far too high.
They aren't against all technology. They're just against wild and unrestrained development, after all that nearly led to mankind's extinction on more than one occasion.
And mankind was STUPID advanced during the DAoT. The Borg from ST, Forerunners from Halo, and even the SW Vong would have been club thumping savages compared to DAoT humanity. The Tau are witless apes in comparison.
Plenty of mankinds technology would indeed have been their own.
In one BL book, there is a DAoT ship which had a gun that created black holes.
DAOT humanity was not beyond Halo Forerunners, they're equals. Forerunners at their height were producing von neumann swarms of drones that exponentially increased in firepower the more they combined, installations with the mass of a planet on a daily basis, building shield worlds the size of a small space station but contained a pocket dimension, etc.Oh, and for combat they'd simply drop part of your ship in another dimension or deposit a black hole in your ship. Their armor also adapted to pretty much anything that didn't instantly kill the Warrior Servant inside.
Also, with medical tech the IOM laughably outstrips the Tau to a hilarious degree. The IOM can extend the lifespan of VIP's well into their several hundred years. Rejuvie is incredibly advanced stem cell treatment that theoretically might even be able to sustain someone ad infinitum.
I dunno, I thought the fluff stated rejuvie tech "only" lasted until around 300 or so years old (which, considering that average human lifespan seems to be the same as real life, is still REALLY impressive)
To further extend that in a non-heretical fashion requires an esophagus and almost no one takes it cause you're basically a vegetable living in a coffin.
There are several heretical technologies that can extend it further but these are heretical for a good (and utterly HORRIFIC) reason...
Again though, that's still insanely impressive considering that unaugmented life span seems unchanged.
TiamatRoar wrote: I dunno, I thought the fluff stated rejuvie tech "only" lasted until around 300 or so years old .
Nah... The Inquisitor Eisenhorn was going strong at 350 or so, and expected to live as long again if he didn't get killed in the line of duty. He did pass on the cosmetics though, he looked like a grumpy and battlescarred elderly man.
Calm down people its just a game. Besides doesn't tau fluff explicitly state that they're more advanced than humanity? Human tech is fairly low on the scale going from Necrons at the top to the eldars to the tau then the imperium followed by orks and last is tyranids because they really don't use tech.
The imperium is not as advanced as it was in the dark age and that tech is mostly lost or destroyed. Current imperial tech is not quite as good as the tau. If you want an example look at plasma technology that can blow up killing the shooter. Just last week I saw a Space marine get enveloped by his own weapon. I can only see that happen with tau on experimental weaponry. Now I think the IoM and tau are technologically close but on weapons I think the tau win given pulse technology, rail weapons etc.
Your example is flawed. Tau turn down they power of thier plasma weapons to keep it contained. The imperium doesn't care.
Tau have one thing better, rail guns. Boom. Amazing. Not really the same thing as better overall.
Humans have teleportation, void shields, void grenades, conversion beakers, terminator armor, knights, war drives, power weapons, cybernetics, the list goes on.
How about we all agree that Nid tech is far superior. Better weaponry, the ability to constantly spawn more troops and the ability to alter soldiers to suit specific combat situations. Bio-tech is superior in every way
No flaw in it, the imperium doesn't care about the lives of their people, but the mechanicus worships the weapons they produce. They wouldn't hand out faulty weapons if they could make the weapons safer. "Your lives are replaceable, our weapons are not" or some such quote from the imperium. They can't mass produce powerful small arms plasma weaponry like the tau have. And as for the railgun being the only tau win look at plasma. Tau have mastered it. Then there's skimmer technology which is fairly rare in the IoM.
Redseer wrote: No flaw in it, the imperium doesn't care about the lives of their people, but the mechanicus worships the weapons they produce. They wouldn't hand out faulty weapons if they could make the weapons safer. "Your lives are replaceable, our weapons are not" or some such quote from the imperium. They can't mass produce powerful small arms plasma weaponry like the tau have. And as for the railgun being the only tau win look at plasma. Tau have mastered it. Then there's skimmer technology which is fairly rare in the IoM.
Themesong for this thread.
Anyway Redseer he already addressed the plasma point. They don't care about the people using the plasma so they don't put restrictions on it's power. Notice how Tau's are 3 more AP and 2 less Str.
Except the Tau are NOT mass producing stuff. They only have to equip a few million soldiers.
The Imperium has billions and billions of soldiers.
The Tau have not "mastered" plasma. The only people who could claim that would be the Eldar. Who have plasma just as strong as the Imperium, but its also safe.
Imperial plasma is of equal tech to the Tau. The Tau just deliberately make weaker weapons because they don't want there to be any chance of the weapon injuring the wielder. Imperial plasma is stronger, but slightly dangerous.
This isn't a problem when soldiers are expendable.
It's actually one of the silliest scifi tropes in existence. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is crappy compared to tech, and having troops with fixed weapons is stupid in the extreme. They'll use more energy on getting something done than they can possibly gain from it. The only reason such a stupid race could have "eaten several galaxies" is if there was no moderately intelligent race to oppose them in any of those galaxies. The Milky Way will be their grave.
Redseer wrote: The imperium is not as advanced as it was in the dark age and that tech is mostly lost or destroyed. Current imperial tech is not quite as good as the tau. If you want an example look at plasma technology that can blow up killing the shooter.
Imperial Plasma weaponry is also much more powerful. Probably because they allow it to overcharge.
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Grey Templar wrote: Except the Tau are NOT mass producing stuff. They only have to equip a few million soldiers.
The Imperium has billions and billions of soldiers.
The Tau have not "mastered" plasma. The only people who could claim that would be the Eldar. Who have plasma just as strong as the Imperium, but its also safe.
Imperial plasma is of equal tech to the Tau. The Tau just deliberately make weaker weapons because they don't want there to be any chance of the weapon injuring the wielder. Imperial plasma is stronger, but slightly dangerous.
This isn't a problem when soldiers are expendable.
For the record, plasma pulse technology is not the same as plasma-rifle technology.
Plasma rifle technology is the stuff pretty much everyone has. Imperial STC, Eldar etc. It contains plasma then spits it out. Containment is the main difference between STC and Tau designs. The Tau aren't expendables and demand reliability from standard equipment. Frankly, that's a better technological philosophy than the AdMech has.
Plasma pulse technology converts ammunition into plasma and then fires it. It can be and is upscaled beyond that of man-portable weaponry. It is far more advanced, because it takes the concepts of plasma weaponry and that of mass accelerators to produce a weapon more powerful than a bolter yet easily mass produced like a lasgun. Oh, and they've also bolted a gyroscopic aim stabiliser and auto-aim features to that as well.
So yeah, the Tau have mastered Plasma weaponry, because they're not only able to construct plasma weapons, but they've applied the scientific principles to create a whole other class of weaponry around it.
The Tau are the most advanced race when it comes to what you could call the science of the Materium. However, the 40k Universe also contains the Immaterium, of which the Eldar are masters and which gives the Imperium an edge on the Tau in areas like FTL travel, teleportation etc. The Tau are catching up by the end of M41 though.
Quickjager wrote: No Necrons are still better, which guess what! Means Tau aren't the most advanced.
So where is the rest of the Tau tech? They got plasma at MOST.
I'm getting really annoyed all these Tau players keep writing off Necrons, juuuuuuust a little, you may be able to tell that I like Necrons from that.
The Crons don't have anything the Tau are incapable of in theory, except the reality bending stuff which is best classed with warp-related subjects than the sciences, and of which the Eldar are the masters. Or they were, perhaps the Crons have more knowledge of the Immaterium now that Eldar civilisation is basically dumped on. Of course, execution does lend itself to the Necron cause in this regard. They have actually built utterly terrifying weapons, whereas the Tau may have the tech and know-how to do so, but haven't exploited it to its fullest yet.
The Tau are flat-earth atheists though, they'll never be capable of using warp-based tech at anywhere near the same level as the Eldar. Though that's perhaps an advantage considering humanity's problems with it and the fact the Eldar get their souls raped by a god of their own creation.
Oh yea Necrons don't got anything the Tau don't have ya know except
A complete understanding of physics and how to nullify the warp, ability to bend reality to their whims. You know have a little thing called the Celestial Orrey. Managed to trap and subdue the C'tan.
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: It is far more advanced, because it takes the concepts of plasma weaponry and that of mass accelerators to produce a weapon more powerful than a bolter yet easily mass produced like a lasgun.
Where is it stated how easy it is to produce Pulse Rifles? Just because the Tau can outfit their comparatively small armies with it doesn't mean it's that easy to create.
The Crons don't have anything the Tau are incapable of in theory, except the reality bending stuff which is best classed with warp-related subjects than the sciences, and of which the Eldar are the masters
The Necrons have shown technology far beyond that of the Tau in multiple fields. You can't class their high end technology with Warp-technology because it simply doesn't use the Warp. All you can say is that it's essentially magic in a different way. A level the Tau show no indication of approaching. The Tau are also lacking in naval technology in general and most of that is science of the Materium. Actually most non-Eldar technology falls under science of the Materium.
Silverthorne wrote: Humanity created twenty demi gods in a single genetic experiment. It is routine in the imperium to take a 12 year old skin and bones kid dying of radiation sickness and transform him into a nine foot tall immortal unbelievably strong killing machine. On the other hand the Tau can't figure out a way to live past 40. So in genetics I'd say the imperium is way out front of everyone. Since the necrons could not extend their life span and the elves naturally live for thousands of years anyway.
DE can reincarnate themselves and have the secret to immortality. Vect and Lelith are not old, despite being 15,000 years old they have the bodies of young Eldar
The Tau are the most advanced race when it comes to what you could call the science of the Materium. However, the 40k Universe also contains the Immaterium, of which the Eldar are masters and which gives the Imperium an edge on the Tau in areas like FTL travel, teleportation etc. The Tau are catching up by the end of M41 though.
No
The real masters of the materium are the C'tan. Like the warp denizens known as chaos "gods" Lord over the immaterium, the C'tan are the one youre looking forwhen its the other side of the mirror.
And the servants ( oldcron ) or former servants ( newcron ) are the Necrons.
Plus those Necrons conquered the Galaxy once. Against Psykers, against opposition who created whole species.
The Eldar are the servants of the old ones, along with Orks. Both didn't perform so well when left alone, Orks are uncontrollable now and Eldar ruined their own Empire because party.
The chance of archeotech dug out beiing of Necron or Eldar origin exists, but these aren't mistaken as of Human origin. Necron stuff is of interest since the Emperor found a C'tan ( or shard ) to inspire his tech staff. ( M 1 maybe ? ).
OtOH, the Galaxy is filled with the remnants of civilizations who didn't stand the test of time. Lots of ruins to excavate, so much still unknown, unexplored.
Best archeotech is also a question like best car, too much personal preferance going on.
IMHO Most interesting archeotech for Humans is usually from their own DAoT .
We can move on from Necrons with celestial orrary and call that done. (which is dumbs)
The Big E was in the process of making a web way gate on Terra before Horus's temper tantrum. so they almost would of been quickly catching up the space travel speed with at least eldar.
As for Tau they are still advancing (at least working on star bombz which it think is cool) but that doesn't necessary make it better than humes, the majority of there ammunition is still physical compared to the near everlasting las weaponry at least from a logistical postion. (though it doesn't effect them as much considering they dont travel out that much.)
PhillyT wrote: Who says it's not human?
Humanity has technology even now comparable to the other races. The only races actually more advanced at the moment are Eldar and Necron.
If the question is being asked, evidence to the contrary is what needs to be provided.
Lasguns and bolters instead of anything else.
Machine spirits instead of autonomous drones.
Treaded vehicles instead of skimmers.
Necron fleets routinely trash human fleets much, much larger than themselves.
Eldar are able to manipulate pathways that allow them to completely bypass traveling through the Warp.
The Tau strapped a starship weapon to a fighter plane in, at most, 2.5% of the time it took the AdMech to put metal plates over the cabling in Space Marine armor.
Humanities level of technology and what they can afford to put on their front line soliders are two very different things. Corruption, constant warfare, vast supply lines and that most of the IoM live on undeveloped worlds means that the IoM deploys very lightly equipped soliders who are often cheap
Humans have scale. They build things really, really big. Big is not the same as advanced. A Tiger II tank is big. A Bradley is advanced. Conflict between the two ends when the Bradley destroys the other from beyond the other's range, after going across a river the Tiger II can't cross, at speeds the Tiger II can't match... which'd be the exact same if we replaced "Tiger II" with "Land Raider" and "Bradley" with "Falcon or Hammerhead."
What if the Tiger II costs 100 times less to build? What if the choice is between 100 Tiger IIs or 1 Bradley? What about 10k to 1? At some point quantity is a quality all it's own.
The IoM has manpower a plenty, abiet low skilled. What they do not have is a great manufacturing capacity overall(too few forge worlds compared to the number of worlds total) or enough money to buy everything they want. Sure in a total war scenerio you dont use money, but instead of a tax you have a tyth. If you ask for too much, a world will rebel. If 80% of the population is engadged in farming or supplying food and basic necessities to the population to just surrived you will have a hard time competing against another empire that only uses 1% of it's population.
Thus they use lasguns, not because that is the level of technology they possess but because they is what they can afford.
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THE HIVE MIND wrote: How about we all agree that Nid tech is far superior. Better weaponry, the ability to constantly spawn more troops and the ability to alter soldiers to suit specific combat situations. Bio-tech is superior in every way
Just much worse in the energy efficiency department
It's actually one of the silliest scifi tropes in existence. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is crappy compared to tech, and having troops with fixed weapons is stupid in the extreme. They'll use more energy on getting something done than they can possibly gain from it. The only reason such a stupid race could have "eaten several galaxies" is if there was no moderately intelligent race to oppose them in any of those galaxies. The Milky Way will be their grave.
and that too.
The 'nids consume so much because they have to. They get so little out of it, so they have to eat more
Quickjager wrote: No Necrons are still better, which guess what! Means Tau aren't the most advanced.
So where is the rest of the Tau tech? They got plasma at MOST.
I'm getting really annoyed all these Tau players keep writing off Necrons, juuuuuuust a little, you may be able to tell that I like Necrons from that.
The Crons don't have anything the Tau are incapable of in theory, except the reality bending stuff which is best classed with warp-related subjects than the sciences, and of which the Eldar are the masters. Or they were, perhaps the Crons have more knowledge of the Immaterium now that Eldar civilisation is basically dumped on. Of course, execution does lend itself to the Necron cause in this regard. They have actually built utterly terrifying weapons, whereas the Tau may have the tech and know-how to do so, but haven't exploited it to its fullest yet.
The Tau are flat-earth atheists though, they'll never be capable of using warp-based tech at anywhere near the same level as the Eldar. Though that's perhaps an advantage considering humanity's problems with it and the fact the Eldar get their souls raped by a god of their own creation.
The Necrons have mastered the art of scientific time-travel. The Tau have not demonstrated any capability in this direction what-so-ever. None. Not even an inkling of an attempt.
The Necrons have mastered hyper-phasic dimensional travel. The Tau have not indicated that they are even aware that this is possible.
The Necrons have mastered space-folding storage sciences, allowing them to create what is, basically, a Bag of Holding. The Tau have not demonstrated the most basic attempts at this, except maybe to try to fit fifty gallons of water into a ten gallon bucket... the Necrons can actually do this, no one else can.
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: The Necrons have shown technology far beyond that of the Tau in multiple fields. You can't class their high end technology with Warp-technology because it simply doesn't use the Warp. All you can say is that it's essentially magic in a different way. A level the Tau show no indication of approaching. The Tau are also lacking in naval technology in general and most of that is science of the Materium. Actually most non-Eldar technology falls under science of the Materium.
Much of their high end technology designed to work through the warp in some manner, though not in the same way as the Eldar. Apart from most of it being utterly reality bending, it's quite easy to infer this because the warp is where their big-bad enemies were. Which means they had both the motivation to throw resources at warp-technology, and the opportunity to learn from an opponent who dwelled there. "It simply doesn't use the warp" isn't accurate, in fact we just don't know how they work work exactly, but being a result of researching the warp, fighting warp creatures and using it against them makes sense in the overall picture.
Tau naval technology? The Tau are behind on engines and don't believe in boarding unless it's absolutely necessary, that's about it. Contact with the Imperium is also upping their strategic thinking on space combat as well. It's not so much a scientific gap they need to close as opposed to an engineering and design philosophy one.
Which brings me to the Celestial Orrery. I have had a theory about this for a long time. The Necrons are manipulators of the warp, they use warp portals all the time to teleport. All they would need to do to cause a supernova is open up a small warp portal on a star, wait a bit, then close it. Doing so would strip the star of some of its mass, thus causing a supernova by reducing the gravity of the star relative to the force of its reaction. Not sure how you'd blow up a star otherwise, but that would certainly be an easy way in a universe with teleportation technology based on transitioning through the warp. They could just teleport a bit of the sun away, and voila, supernova. The Tau could do it if they had higher understanding of warp-tech. The supernova thing wouldn't be the problem, the galaxy-wide near-instantaneous communication to machines capable of causing supernovas would be; something that would be possible with warp manipulation.
Like another one of you said, the Necrons conquered the galaxy once before. The Orrery could have component parts all over the galaxy to aid it. Given how easily the Necrons seem to be able to manipulate the warp, something like the Orrery would be easy in terms of the science. Though it's also easy to see why there's only one of them, it would still be an enormous undertaking. Please note that Matt Ward is a heretic in love with throwaway passages that don't really mean much, though..
The C'Tan themselves would be masters of the Materium, but they're shards and didn't give the Necrons all the secrets to begin with. Unless the Aul Fella Wandering Through Space stole them somehow when the rebellion rolled into town.
Where is it stated how easy it is to produce Pulse Rifles? Just because the Tau can outfit their comparatively small armies with it doesn't mean it's that easy to create.
Don't be absurd, of course it's easy to create a pulse weapon for the Tau. They need to arm every Fire Warrior, which represents a significant section of their population, as well as billions of drones, battlesuits, aircraft, and even small starships with the things. If a pulse weapon was difficult to create, then they would use something more efficient. The Tau Empire may even have a larger proportion of its population under arms than the Imperium, which given the threats it faces and its society structure makes sense. Talking about "relatively small armies" in Imperial terms is silly, because it isn't the Imperium doing the manufacturing, the Tau don't have the breathing space to screw around with inefficiencies, and they're not tolerant of inefficiency anyway.
The Tau can make lasweapons. Bolters are hardly beyond them either. Nor are Imperial spec plasma rifles. They use plasma pulse weaponry. Evidently, they are easy enough to make to justify arming all their own forces AND some auxiliary forces with them. I would suspect they're probably more resource intensive to make. Can we point to plasma tech and say "that's why the Tau are more advanced" as the singular example? No. But they are more advanced where this is concerned. They understand the science, and they've applied it to create new weapons that they can pump out. The AdMech probably could as well if they pulled their head out of their arses and worked out the theories, but they don't.
Actually, the Necrons don't use the Warp to teleport. They use hyper-phasic dimensions or Dolmen Gates, which are sort of like a tech-based version of the Web-Way, but has been described in manners that the Web-Way has not been (being a tube of green light, rather than the scintillating colors of the Eldar Web-Way).
Psienesis wrote: Actually, the Necrons don't use the Warp to teleport. They use hyper-phasic dimensions or Dolmen Gates, which are sort of like a tech-based version of the Web-Way, but has been described in manners that the Web-Way has not been (being a tube of green light, rather than the scintillating colors of the Eldar Web-Way).
As far as I'm aware, they're still tunneling through the warp. If I'm wrong, by all means point me to a source!
Does that say that Dolmen gates don't work via the warp?
It is implied, as Daemons don't ever come out of them (but can pursue them into it, finding new things to corrupt) and they never suffer Perils using them, nor are they ever inaccurate.
The 'nids consume so much because they have to. They get so little out of it, so they have to eat more
I like the theory that the Nids are on the run from something. Logically, they should otherwise keep the planets they conquers, and setup ecosystems to absorb the continual energy the sun produces. Or at least build some sort of orbital habitats. Stars produce tremendous amouns of energy, and plants are quite good at harnessing it. Instead, the Tyranids focus on harvesting the relatively small current biomass of a planet for short term consumption instead of just using it to process the endless supply of solar energy.
But it all makes sense if they are (as a species) running away from something worse, they wouldn't have time to sit around waiting for the plants to grow.
It would make some sense for the Tyranids to have some basic nuclear technology for heat at least. It's not paticularly complicated, since all you're doing is concentrating radioactive particles. It might be how they keep themselves warm over during interplanetary travel. A lot of animals use rocks in their digestion (gastroliths) to break down food, instead Tyranids might use uraniaum to keep warm.
Does that say that Dolmen gates don't work via the warp?
It is implied, as Daemons don't ever come out of them (but can pursue them into it, finding new things to corrupt) and they never suffer Perils using them, nor are they ever inaccurate.
It's implied or outright stated that the Necrons can stop the warp advancing into realspace on a galactic level, and so must have protections that make Geller Fields look like paper towels by comparison. Somehow, I don't think Daemons are getting through.
EDIT: Also, Crons aren't very tasty. No souls, see.
Much of their high end technology designed to work through the warp in some manner, though not in the same way as the Eldar. Apart from most of it being utterly reality bending, it's quite easy to infer this because the warp is where their big-bad enemies were. Which means they had both the motivation to throw resources at warp-technology, and the opportunity to learn from an opponent who dwelled there. "It simply doesn't use the warp" isn't accurate, in fact we just don't know how they work work exactly, but being a result of researching the warp, fighting warp creatures and using it against them makes sense in the overall picture.
There is no evidence to suggest that. As far as I know Dolmen Gates were only used for some long ranged travel (essentially quickly moving an army to a point they were not previously established) via hacking into the Webway. Phasing out, the Celestial Orrery, living metal, Inertialess Drives, bio-transference itself, time travel, reading the future (through the stars!), mind shackle scarabs, deathmarks, pocket dimensions; none of them use(d) the Warp in anyway from what I've read.
Tau ships struggle to match the human ones and are certainly outmatched by Eldar and Necron vessels. Also some of the giant Orks ones.
The Celestial Orrery could have component parts. However considering the communication array of the Necrons decayed during their sleep I don't see why the Orrery would fare better without tending to.
For the Tau we have no idea what the Caste ratio is. The Tau selectively breed so it's possible that different Castes are constrained to different sizes. They also have far smaller supply lines and are able to consolidate their gains easier than the Imperium can (due to being continuously attacked in a lot of different locations. I
Does that say that Dolmen gates don't work via the warp?
It is implied, as Daemons don't ever come out of them (but can pursue them into it, finding new things to corrupt) and they never suffer Perils using them, nor are they ever inaccurate.
It's implied or outright stated that the Necrons can stop the warp advancing into realspace on a galactic level, and so must have protections that make Geller Fields look like paper towels by comparison. Somehow, I don't think Daemons are getting through.
EDIT: Also, Crons aren't very tasty. No souls, see.
They do this via various devices, such as their pylons on Cadia. They're quite skilled at Warp-craft, which is pretty impressive for a race that never had psykers. They are also quite skilled at "mundane" sciences. In fact, far moreso than any other species in the galaxy before or since.
I would like to see evidence that the Tau understand what a Tesseract Labyrinth is and have the capabilities to produce one. Or a Mind Shackle Scarab. Or the Phase Out functionality. Or self-repairing buildings, vehicles and/or wargear on the scale and extremes that the Necrons demonstrate.
There is no evidence to suggest that. As far as I know Dolmen Gates were only used for some long ranged travel (essentially quickly moving an army to a point they were not previously established) via hacking into the Webway. Phasing out, the Celestial Orrery, living metal, Inertialess Drives, bio-transference itself, time travel, reading the future (through the stars!), mind shackle scarabs, deathmarks, pocket dimensions; none of them use(d) the Warp in anyway from what I've read.
Tau ships struggle to match the human ones and are certainly outmatched by Eldar and Necron vessels. Also some of the giant Orks ones.
The Celestial Orrery could have component parts. However considering the communication array of the Necrons decayed during their sleep I don't see why the Orrery would fare better without tending to.
For the Tau we have no idea what the Caste ratio is. The Tau selectively breed so it's possible that different Castes are constrained to different sizes. They also have far smaller supply lines and are able to consolidate their gains easier than the Imperium can (due to being continuously attacked in a lot of different locations. I
There is significant circumstantial evidence and no evidence to contradict that Dolmen Gates use the warp. Also, the Webway is a set of permanent tunnels on the edge of the warp, so it would hardly be "not using the warp" to use the Webway, technically speaking.
Phasing out? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp. Almost gave you that one though.
Living metal? The Tau have nanite technology, "minidrones" I think the Farsight Supplement calls them. Also used to keep a bloke alive, rather ominiously.
Inertialess drives? Could just be well engineered dampeners built-in.
Bio-transference? There's a damned dead guy piloting one of Farsight's buddy-suits as an AI! Neural interfaces are how battlesuit pilots operate.
Time travel? Possible with warp manipulation.
Reading the future? Mathematics + time manipulation from the warp. The Eldar do the same thing, examining possible events through a psyker-based approach. Necrons probably just stick a computer in a warp bubble with a huge time differential and let it stew. Also, Wardite heresy.
Mind-shackle scarabs? See bio-transference. Tau could do it, just hasn't occurred to them because either they're too cute and fluffy or the Ethereals don't want competition.
Deathmarks? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bollocks, I've just come to the conclusion that the Tau are the Necrons. Or cloned by the Eldar from Necrons.
The C'Tan could not. The Necrons, being living creatures, could. This is why the C'Tan recruited them to fight the Old Ones, the Necrons could go where the C'Tan could not (the Warp was antithetical to the very nature of their existence).
There is no evidence to suggest that. As far as I know Dolmen Gates were only used for some long ranged travel (essentially quickly moving an army to a point they were not previously established) via hacking into the Webway. Phasing out, the Celestial Orrery, living metal, Inertialess Drives, bio-transference itself, time travel, reading the future (through the stars!), mind shackle scarabs, deathmarks, pocket dimensions; none of them use(d) the Warp in anyway from what I've read.
Tau ships struggle to match the human ones and are certainly outmatched by Eldar and Necron vessels. Also some of the giant Orks ones.
The Celestial Orrery could have component parts. However considering the communication array of the Necrons decayed during their sleep I don't see why the Orrery would fare better without tending to.
For the Tau we have no idea what the Caste ratio is. The Tau selectively breed so it's possible that different Castes are constrained to different sizes. They also have far smaller supply lines and are able to consolidate their gains easier than the Imperium can (due to being continuously attacked in a lot of different locations. I
There is significant circumstantial evidence and no evidence to contradict that Dolmen Gates use the warp. Also, the Webway is a set of permanent tunnels on the edge of the warp, so it would hardly be "not using the warp" to use the Webway, technically speaking.
Phasing out? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp. Almost gave you that one though.
Living metal? The Tau have nanite technology, "minidrones" I think the Farsight Supplement calls them. Also used to keep a bloke alive, rather ominiously.
Inertialess drives? Could just be well engineered dampeners built-in.
Bio-transference? There's a damned dead guy piloting one of Farsight's buddy-suits as an AI! Neural interfaces are how battlesuit pilots operate.
Time travel? Possible with warp manipulation.
Reading the future? Mathematics + time manipulation from the warp. The Eldar do the same thing, examining possible events through a psyker-based approach. Necrons probably just stick a computer in a warp bubble with a huge time differential and let it stew. Also, Wardite heresy.
Mind-shackle scarabs? See bio-transference. Tau could do it, just hasn't occurred to them because either they're too cute and fluffy or the Ethereals don't want competition.
Deathmarks? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bollocks, I've just come to the conclusion that the Tau are the Necrons. Or cloned by the Eldar from Necrons.
This is not good.
Except Phase Out works pretty much wherever. The devices/powers that stop Warp energies and effects do not stop Phase Out. Also, as the Tomb Complex is warded against entities from the Warp from entering it via the Warp, and yet the various Necron units are not summarily blocked, this would imply that Phase Out does not, in fact, utilize the Warp.
Bio-transference is far more than digitizing someone's consciousness. If that's what we're calling it, then the Imperium is also capable of this feat, as the AdMech grants this boon to their senior Tech-priests, moving their entire memory and personality into a microchip installed in their adamantium skulls, having undergone the Rite of Pure Thought and cast aside the last vestiges of the flesh, they become One with the machine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: Has it always been that or was this something added recently?
Always been that way. Otherwise, there was no reason for the C'Tan to use the Necrons. They had no use for them outside of this role. The nature of the Necrons has changed with 5th/6th Ed, as they are no longer a cancer-ridden pathetic race trapped on one dying world but instead the masters of the galaxy with a far-flung empire of dynastic lords and super-science, who might have demanded the secrets of eternal life from the Old Ones (or this might have been a line of propaganda fed to the Necron populace to justify going to war with them) and then attacked them when they were refused. The first war with the Old Ones did not end well for the Necrons, as they lacked (at the time) the understanding of the Warp, and the ability to resist the warp-based powers (which would come with the C'Tan). The C'Tan (specifically, the Deceiver) told the Silent King that they, too, had been defeated by the Old Ones, so why don't we, you know, join sides? Whether or not this had actually happened is something we'll never know, as any who could say with certainty have either died or been sharded.
From the C'Tan, the Necrons advanced their already-considerable mastery of the physical sciences to a very great degree... but the whole practice of Bio-Transference was something that they came up with on their own (and had a pretty massive civil war over, too).
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: There is significant circumstantial evidence and no evidence to contradict that Dolmen Gates use the warp. Also, the Webway is a set of permanent tunnels on the edge of the warp, so it would hardly be "not using the warp" to use the Webway, technically speaking.
Phasing out? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp. Almost gave you that one though. Give me proof of your fanfic
Living metal? The Tau have nanite technology, "minidrones" I think the Farsight Supplement calls them. Also used to keep a bloke alive, rather ominiously. He is kept alive via a blade of unknown origins, that gives him the life span of the person he kills
Inertialess drives? Could just be well engineered dampeners built-in. Yes lets ignore what two novels and a codex say, either way Tau still don't have it
Bio-transference? There's a damned dead guy piloting one of Farsight's buddy-suits as an AI! Neural interfaces are how battlesuit pilots operate. Yes it's an AI of his battle-routines not actually him
Time travel? Possible with warp manipulation. But they don't use the warp
Reading the future? Mathematics + time manipulation from the warp. The Eldar do the same thing, examining possible events through a psyker-based approach. Necrons probably just stick a computer in a warp bubble with a huge time differential and let it stew. Also, Wardite heresy. Cool can the Tau do it then?
Mind-shackle scarabs? See bio-transference. Tau could do it, just hasn't occurred to them because either they're too cute and fluffy or the Ethereals don't want competition. lol where is your proof
Deathmarks? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp. Once again they don't use the warp
The lack of knowledge of your "supposed" faction leads me to believe that you are deliberately being obtuse and extending this argument for no more reason than to waste our time. If you can't back up your claims with evidence and other wise contribute to the discussion please leave, either way you are going to be ignored by me.
Quickjager wrote: No Necrons are still better, which guess what! Means Tau aren't the most advanced.
So where is the rest of the Tau tech? They got plasma at MOST.
I'm getting really annoyed all these Tau players keep writing off Necrons, juuuuuuust a little, you may be able to tell that I like Necrons from that.
The Crons don't have anything the Tau are incapable of in theory, except the reality bending stuff which is best classed with warp-related subjects than the sciences, and of which the Eldar are the masters. Or they were, perhaps the Crons have more knowledge of the Immaterium now that Eldar civilisation is basically dumped on. Of course, execution does lend itself to the Necron cause in this regard. They have actually built utterly terrifying weapons, whereas the Tau may have the tech and know-how to do so, but haven't exploited it to its fullest yet.
The Tau are flat-earth atheists though, they'll never be capable of using warp-based tech at anywhere near the same level as the Eldar. Though that's perhaps an advantage considering humanity's problems with it and the fact the Eldar get their souls raped by a god of their own creation.
Man I hate Tau Fanboys who seem to have read the Tau codex exclusively.
Get back to me when the Tau have firearms that use incredibly advanced magnets bordering on space magic to strip away the atoms of a target and suck it back into the gun at speeds that are probably faster than light, and ignore durability completely, against which the only armor that does anything is density based. gak, you're really drinking from the Tau Cool-Aid if you seriously think Tau have teleporation without the warp, time travel without the warp, inertialess drives, living metal (Necrodermis is not made of nanites, it's quite simply esoteric), the celestial orrery, phase weapons, phasing, weaponized teleporation beams, computers so advanced they predict all possible futures, etc.
Oh, and along with the God Emperor, the Necrons are the only other faction preventing the Chaos Gods from consuming the entire universe with the Pylons. So there's that too.
Having safeguards and technical loopholes to allow means for friendlies to teleport in and out of Necron facilities while keeping warp entities out would be essential in any fight against said warp entities...
As for Phase Out, I said it was inter-dimensional technology garnered from studying the warp. If the Old Ones can create the webway, the Necrons can create less advanced or temporary bubbles of other dimensions. If you can jump into one "other" reality, why not another in turn?
Biotransference is taking one's consciousness and placing it in a machine. Simply because the Necron version stripped their souls away doesn't mean it is the only form. The AdMech One with the Machine concept and Tau AI tech are biotransference by the most basic definition. It just hasn't been combined with nanite/living metal tech by either, and it isn't designed to feed a star god or two...
Always been that way. Otherwise, there was no reason for the C'Tan to use the Necrons. They had no use for them outside of this role. The nature of the Necrons has changed with 5th/6th Ed, as they are no longer a cancer-ridden pathetic race trapped on one dying world but instead the masters of the galaxy with a far-flung empire of dynastic lords and super-science, who might have demanded the secrets of eternal life from the Old Ones (or this might have been a line of propaganda fed to the Necron populace to justify going to war with them) and then attacked them when they were refused. The first war with the Old Ones did not end well for the Necrons, as they lacked (at the time) the understanding of the Warp, and the ability to resist the warp-based powers (which would come with the C'Tan). The C'Tan (specifically, the Deceiver) told the Silent King that they, too, had been defeated by the Old Ones, so why don't we, you know, join sides? Whether or not this had actually happened is something we'll never know, as any who could say with certainty have either died or been sharded.
From the C'Tan, the Necrons advanced their already-considerable mastery of the physical sciences to a very great degree... but the whole practice of Bio-Transference was something that they came up with on their own (and had a pretty massive civil war over, too).
Man I hate Tau Fanboys who seem to have read the Tau codex exclusively.
Get back to me when the Tau have firearms that use incredibly advanced magnets bordering on space magic to strip away the atoms of a target and suck it back into the gun at speeds that are probably faster than light, and ignore durability completely, against which the only armor that does anything is density based. gak, you're really drinking from the Tau Cool-Aid if you seriously think Tau have teleporation without the warp, time travel without the warp, inertialess drives, living metal (Necrodermis is not made of nanites, it's quite simply esoteric), the celestial orrery, phase weapons, phasing, weaponized teleporation beams, computers so advanced they predict all possible futures, etc.
Oh, and along with the God Emperor, the Necrons are the only other faction preventing the Chaos Gods from consuming the entire universe with the Pylons. So there's that too.
*sigh*
I didn't say the Tau had all those technologies.
I said the Necrons' advancements over the Tau are the result of a far better understanding of the warp, and that the Tau are the masters of the empirical material sciences. Because they have to be, in order to have any sort of chance of surviving as non-psyker aliens.
EDIT: Also, the Tau have grav manipulation tech and particle physics on a level high enough to create Gauss weapons. Again, it wouldn't occur to them to build them because they have highly effective weapons that are mass produced already. I suspect gauss weapons were a development for the War in Heaven.
Man I hate Tau Fanboys who seem to have read the Tau codex exclusively.
Get back to me when the Tau have firearms that use incredibly advanced magnets bordering on space magic to strip away the atoms of a target and suck it back into the gun at speeds that are probably faster than light, and ignore durability completely, against which the only armor that does anything is density based. gak, you're really drinking from the Tau Cool-Aid if you seriously think Tau have teleporation without the warp, time travel without the warp, inertialess drives, living metal (Necrodermis is not made of nanites, it's quite simply esoteric), the celestial orrery, phase weapons, phasing, weaponized teleporation beams, computers so advanced they predict all possible futures, etc.
Oh, and along with the God Emperor, the Necrons are the only other faction preventing the Chaos Gods from consuming the entire universe with the Pylons. So there's that too.
*sigh*
I didn't say the Tau had all those technologies.
I said the Necrons' advancements over the Tau are the result of a far better understanding of the warp, and that the Tau are the masters of the empirical material sciences. Because they have to be, in order to have any sort of chance of surviving as non-psyker aliens.
Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.
Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.
Again, that doesn't stop them from manipulating the warp and using it for their own ends. The pylons on Cadia alone prove that.
Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.
Again, that doesn't stop them from manipulating the warp and using it for their own ends. The pylons on Cadia alone prove that.
Which is also the only known example of them using the warp. Otherwise they teleport and phase through other dimensions completely unrelated to the warp.
Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.
Again, that doesn't stop them from manipulating the warp and using it for their own ends. The pylons on Cadia alone prove that.
Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.
Again, that doesn't stop them from manipulating the warp and using it for their own ends. The pylons on Cadia alone prove that.
How? Blocking something does not = controlling.
Not to mention the Necrons themselves and their gods are the complete antithesis of the warp.
Manipulating when and where the warp appears would be enough to create far more powerful defences against the warp, far better teleportation tech, and have a deeper understanding of interdimensional physics. "Blocking it out" gives you a lot of options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyzilla wrote: Not to mention the Necrons themselves and their gods are the complete antithesis of the warp.
Which isn't a problem if you can "block it out" to prevent it from causing you harm...
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: Manipulating when and where the warp appears would be enough to create far more powerful defences against the warp, far better teleportation tech, and have a deeper understanding of interdimensional physics. "Blocking it out" gives you a lot of options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyzilla wrote: Not to mention the Necrons themselves and their gods are the complete antithesis of the warp.
Which isn't a problem if you can "block it out" to prevent it from causing you harm...
Except you still haven't produced any source stating that Necrons use the warp for things like teleportation. The Codices just describe them as using other dimensions, and zero mention of the warp.
A. They had every opportunity to study warp technology during the War in Heaven.
B. They had every motivation to not get destroyed during the War in Heaven by warp-tech weapons, warp manipulation was essential to their survival.
C. The ability to manipulate the warp to the extent the Necrons can would open up many useful possibilities.
D. Those possibilities largely line up with Necron capabilities.
E. The Warp is the means by which every other species teleports, travels, etc.
F: I refuse to endorse the Wardite Heresy that every codex army he wrote about is "special" via throwaway passages to other dimensions.
For the record, I think the Necrons are class. I think the Tau nicked their original plasma tech off some Imperial remnants or tech they picked up along the way.
I just think that the Tau are the "non-magical" race and that it doesn't make sense for the Necrons to have access to another "magical" dimension when a perfectly serviceable one already exists, and they have proven power over that.
Psienesis wrote: Necrons are the "Super Science!" race, like from a 1950s sci-fi movie.
Not denying that either, I'm saying they got their edge from studying warp-based tech during the War in Heaven.
They're possibly the most advanced race overall because it's science + magic. Could even outdo the Eldar given how far that species has fallen. The Tau are flat earth atheists, so their balance on that count is weighted entirely to one end of the spectrum.
Oh god, we haven't now moved to trying to claim Tau are better than the NEcron have we?
The fluff pretty clearly spells out that the Necron are the limit of materium technology. They were extremely high tech before meeting the Ctan, and the CTan then took it to the next level sicne they had ultimate knowledge on physics and the galaxies laws, to the point where they could break them.
There is no plausible line of argument that could place the Tau within even a sniff of the Necron. They aren't even as high tech as the Imperium, who themselves are demonstrably less technologically advanced than the Necron.
On those cases where the fluff specifically states it, it is toughto deny.
People mention the Orrery, and rightly so. It is an item of such hideous power, yet to the Necron, it is mostly agalactic pruning device, not a weapon. They don't need it to be a weapon. They had items far more powerful at the end of the war of the heavens, which they used to shatter the CTan.
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: I infer that they use the warp because:
A. They had every opportunity to study warp technology during the War in Heaven.
B. They had every motivation to not get destroyed during the War in Heaven by warp-tech weapons, warp manipulation was essential to their survival.
C. The ability to manipulate the warp to the extent the Necrons can would open up many useful possibilities.
D. Those possibilities largely line up with Necron capabilities.
E. The Warp is the means by which every other species teleports, travels, etc.
F: I refuse to endorse the Wardite Heresy that every codex army he wrote about is "special" via throwaway passages to other dimensions.
It's possible that the Necrons figured it out. It is also possible they didnt figure it out. Imagine you are the Japanese fighting the Americans in a dystopian WWII where the nuclear war goes on much longer. Also imagine that the Japanese cannot read any European text about how nuclear physics works.
Now would the Japanese getting nuked repeatedly give them some insight into how the Americans were building atomic bombs ?
If the Japanese captured an atomic bomb, on a crashed aircraft but otherwise intact, would they be able to understand it(beyond the this is the trigger)?
Even if they found out how to build say, a Uranium bomb through reverse engineering what they found. How easy would it be for them to build a plutonium bomb or a hydrogen bomb?
Just being on the losing side of a war against a psykic enemy that uses the warp doesnt mean you would figure out how the warp worked. Particularly if it was in a dimension that your race, was just genetically blind to.
It would appear to them that "We are losing the war because they[the old ones+eldar] are breaking the laws of physics"
They might scientifically be able to figure out. " Hmm, on this type of world, or against this type of energy field [they] are not able to break the laws of physics as badly." and then use more of those energy fields or more rocks similar to that planet. Evolution to being able to build a pylon, but knowing how to harness the warp for long distance travel, changing time and space, that might just be completely lost on them.
I just think that the Tau are the "non-magical" race and that it doesn't make sense for the Necrons to have access to another "magical" dimension when a perfectly serviceable one already exists, and they have proven power over that.
I do agree that the Necrons seem to have a lot of abilities that every other race uses the warp for. If they dont use the warp, then how would they do it. I do also kind of reject that they found a cheaper better way to do it without using the warp that no one else can understand.
PhillyT wrote: Oh god, we haven't now moved to trying to claim Tau are better than the NEcron have we?
No, actually.
The Necrons sit atop the roost of tech as far as I'm concerned. I just claim that they are so because of their study and manipulation of the warp, and that the Tau are the head honchos of what one could call the sciences of the Materium.
TLDR:
Necrons: Good science + good magic.
Tau: Excellent science + terrible magic.
The Imperium is largely ahead of the Tau for the same reason; the Warp. They are outclassed entirely in material sciences because the AdMech don't believe in science...
Also, dealt with the Celestial Orrery in another post. Read back there lad.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau definitely had plasma tech before they met humans. There is a thing in the timeline about them perfecting the first pulse rifle.
Before they met the Imperium. But, the Imperium was around the place long before they even got off the Tau homeworld.
It wouldn't surprise me if they discovered some "archeotech" or bought some from Rogue Traders. And not pulse rifles, those are Tau creations based on plasma tech. I mean the Imperial type plasmaguns that the battlesuits have toned down versions of.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau definitely had plasma tech before they met humans. There is a thing in the timeline about them perfecting the first pulse rifle.
I though first contact was rocks and sticks, then after a sudden warpstorm they came out as plasma tech society no?
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau definitely had plasma tech before they met humans. There is a thing in the timeline about them perfecting the first pulse rifle.
Well, technically humanity first encountered the Tau as a primitive race who had just barely discovered fire. They logged all information away, and sent a colony fleet and planned to exterminate the natives on arrival.
But then the Warp storm hit and a few thousand years later the Tau emerge. First contact being a scout ship which was destroyed upon being discovered by an Imperial planet. The corpses of the Tau onboard were genetically matched to the data that was collected by the original Explorator team.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau definitely had plasma tech before they met humans. There is a thing in the timeline about them perfecting the first pulse rifle.
I though first contact was rocks and sticks, then after a sudden warpstorm they came out as plasma tech society no?
Dammit, I keep forgetting things. I should say "before they met humans after the warp storm died down."
Grey Templar wrote: Moving faster doesn't do much good when you are horribly outclassed in terms of weaponry and durability. It only lets you run away.
A thought that keeps the candle of Tau civilisation alive, I suspect
Which fails when they finally realize they don't have an advantage in terms of those things either.
Sure, their basic troops have better weaponry and gear than Guardsmen. But it doesn't matter that your basic gear is twice as good as your opponent when he's got 100 dudes to your 1. And when the elite troops and tech of your opponent also blows your elite troops and all tech out of the water...
I've always thought that Tau's rapid advancement is their blessing as well as their curse. If they were too much bigger it would warrant a full imperial assault to destroy them (assuming that there wasn't to much else going on).
Grey Templar wrote: Which fails when they finally realize they don't have an advantage in terms of those things either.
Sure, their basic troops have better weaponry and gear than Guardsmen. But it doesn't matter that your basic gear is twice as good as your opponent when he's got 100 dudes to your 1. And when the elite troops and tech of your opponent also blows your elite troops and all tech out of the water...
Which would be a point, if Tau tech was stagnant like the Imperium, and the Imperium wasn't riddled with heretical cancers, under assault from a whole host of other aliens, and daemons weren't spilling out of the Eye of Terror every couple of generations.
Redseer wrote: The imperium is not as advanced as it was in the dark age and that tech is mostly lost or destroyed. Current imperial tech is not quite as good as the tau. If you want an example look at plasma technology that can blow up killing the shooter. Just last week I saw a Space marine get enveloped by his own weapon. I can only see that happen with tau on experimental weaponry. Now I think the IoM and tau are technologically close but on weapons I think the tau win given pulse technology, rail weapons etc.
Just two weeks ago I played a game against Tau where their commander and his body guards slammed into the ground so hard they died instantly (deep strike mishap) and the Riptide did itself more damage than I managed to, but you know their tech is 100% reliable.
Though I suspect the philosophy of the Greater Good might actually result in cooperation or organic-AI synthesis.
Three possibilities that are distilled awesome. A Cylon War, the possiibility of attrition wars for the Tau, or a noblebright Mass Effect ending? Yes Please.
Grey Templar wrote: Which fails when they finally realize they don't have an advantage in terms of those things either.
Sure, their basic troops have better weaponry and gear than Guardsmen. But it doesn't matter that your basic gear is twice as good as your opponent when he's got 100 dudes to your 1. And when the elite troops and tech of your opponent also blows your elite troops and all tech out of the water...
Which would be a point, if Tau tech was stagnant like the Imperium, and the Imperium wasn't riddled with heretical cancers, under assault from a whole host of other aliens, and daemons weren't spilling out of the Eye of Terror every couple of generations.
You seem to be under the impression that the Imperium has to make a choice between hold back the Eye/Orks/other aliens and squish the Tau.
Its not that way though.
Its really a choice between, squish the Tau and have slightly less resources to fight the Tyranids OR have more resources to fight the Nids and let a minor annoyance continue to annoy.
The Tau really aren't worth the Imperium's time. They have plenty of resources and could easily crush the Tau and continue to survive. But its worth more in the long run to have those resources face down actual threats.
What happens on the table-top is not, generally speaking, in line with how the fluff presents things.
Otherwise, most SM armies would be a single squad, and handily defeating hordes.
ETA: The above in response to
Just two weeks ago I played a game against Tau where their commander and his body guards slammed into the ground so hard they died instantly (deep strike mishap) and the Riptide did itself more damage than I managed to, but you know their tech is 100% reliable.
Redseer wrote: The imperium is not as advanced as it was in the dark age and that tech is mostly lost or destroyed. Current imperial tech is not quite as good as the tau. If you want an example look at plasma technology that can blow up killing the shooter. Just last week I saw a Space marine get enveloped by his own weapon. I can only see that happen with tau on experimental weaponry. Now I think the IoM and tau are technologically close but on weapons I think the tau win given pulse technology, rail weapons etc.
Just two weeks ago I played a game against Tau where their commander and his body guards slammed into the ground so hard they died instantly (deep strike mishap) and the Riptide did itself more damage than I managed to, but you know their tech is 100% reliable.
However, the fact that the Riptide can damage itself with its overcharge indicates a, at best, "field testing" level of design for the weapon or, perhaps, a change in philosophy regarding the value of the pilot over the value of the weapon.
Grey Templar wrote: You seem to be under the impression that the Imperium has to make a choice between hold back the Eye/Orks/other aliens and squish the Tau.
Its not that way though.
Its really a choice between, squish the Tau and have slightly less resources to fight the Tyranids OR have more resources to fight the Nids and let a minor annoyance continue to annoy.
The Tau really aren't worth the Imperium's time. They have plenty of resources and could easily crush the Tau and continue to survive. But its worth more in the long run to have those resources face down actual threats.
No, I agree with all that as well. Though just handing worlds to the Tyranids alone will cost you far more than you'd gain by crushing the Tau.
Everyone knows that the Tau only live because of the multitude of other, far more serious threats to the Imperium. The problem is that every year that goes by without it happening lends itself to the Tau being less naive and more technologically advanced....
DAMN ITGW, ADVANCE THE STORYLINE PAST 999.M41 ALREADY.
Psienesis wrote: However, the fact that the Riptide can damage itself with its overcharge indicates a, at best, "field testing" level of design for the weapon or, perhaps, a change in philosophy regarding the value of the pilot over the value of the weapon.
PhillyT wrote: Oh god, we haven't now moved to trying to claim Tau are better than the NEcron have we?
No, actually.
The Necrons sit atop the roost of tech as far as I'm concerned. I just claim that they are so because of their study and manipulation of the warp, and that the Tau are the head honchos of what one could call the sciences of the Materium.
TLDR:
Necrons: Good science + good magic.
Tau: Excellent science + terrible magic.
The Imperium is largely ahead of the Tau for the same reason; the Warp. They are outclassed entirely in material sciences because the AdMech don't believe in science...
Also, dealt with the Celestial Orrery in another post. Read back there lad.
The necron are no more able to manipulate the warp than tau. They don't use magic. Their technology is so advanced as to allow them to rip what they need from the warp. They have no psykers.
Necron are the undisputed masters of science. Next would likely be the dark age humans, followed by eldar and dark eldar, then the Tau.
No, Even their height, humanity never surpassed the eldar in all there glory. Maybe the eldar now, but i doubt it. What should be remembered is that for max tech the:scale is"
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Imperium
4. Tau
But for median tech it is:
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Tau
4. Imperium
Indeed. DAoT Humanity is said to have rivaled the Eldar, but not surpassed them (perhaps in some areas, not in others, and so, in the balance, may have matched them).
If the Necrons were unable to manipulate the warp, they would all be dead: They were fighting warp-creatures, psychic creations of said warp-creatures and any number of other things. For eons, potentially. Their pylons would not hold back the entire freaking Eye of Terror. They don't require psykers to use the warp either. The Tau didn't require that to build ether drives, and they've only been at it a few hundred years at best. The Necrons had star gods helping them, and had who knows how long.
Dark Age Humans aren't around in the 41st Millenium, the Eldar's technological advantage spawns from their psychic ability, and where on Earth you got the idea that the Dark Eldar are superior to the Tau in terms of technology, I do not know. The DE can't even exploit their old civilisation's cornicopia tech because it would draw Slaanesh's attention. They have plenty of tricks, but even the Tau have more substance, and that's saying something...
The Necrons did with Science what the Old Ones did with magic. That's what the Necrons represent, as previously mentioned. They possess the technology that Clark's Law references, that is, "any technology, suitably advanced, will appear as magic to the unlearned". The Necron use magic-level grades of technology.
Like Trazyn's Tachyon Arrow, a single-shot weapon (per battle) that has Infinite range. You could, provided LOS, shoot a model four tables over.
Co'tor Shas wrote: No, Even their height, humanity never surpassed the eldar in all there glory. Maybe the eldar now, but i doubt it. What should be remembered is that for max tech the:scale is"
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Imperium
4. Tau
But for median tech it is:
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Tau
4. Imperium
I was referring to science based technology. Eldar science is linked and boosted inextricably by their immense psyker abilities.
And what constitutes medium tech? Pound for pound, space marines alone are equal to tau and surpass them in many ways.
Co'tor Shas wrote: No, Even their height, humanity never surpassed the eldar in all there glory. Maybe the eldar now, but i doubt it. What should be remembered is that for max tech the:scale is"
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Imperium
4. Tau
But for median tech it is:
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Tau
4. Imperium
I was referring to science based technology. Eldar science is linked and boosted inextricably by their immense psyker abilities.
And what constitutes medium tech? Pound for pound, space marines alone are equal to tau and surpass them in many ways.
Median tech. What does the middle individual have? I use medium because it is more fair than average for this purpose, but you would probably get what I was saying if Isaid average tech.
And no, space marines are not higherr tech than, I don't know, crisis suits. Riptides. Even stealth suits.
Psienesis wrote: The Necrons did with Science what the Old Ones did with magic. That's what the Necrons represent, as previously mentioned. They possess the technology that Clark's Law references, that is, "any technology, suitably advanced, will appear as magic to the unlearned". The Necron use magic-level grades of technology.
Like Trazyn's Tachyon Arrow, a single-shot weapon (per battle) that has Infinite range. You could, provided LOS, shoot a model four tables over.
There's also that melee weapon that mass scattered a planet from a Necron lord swinging it.
Which brings me to the Celestial Orrery. I have had a theory about this for a long time. The Necrons are manipulators of the warp, they use warp portals all the time to teleport. All they would need to do to cause a supernova is open up a small warp portal on a star, wait a bit, then close it. Doing so would strip the star of some of its mass, thus causing a supernova by reducing the gravity of the star relative to the force of its reaction. Not sure how you'd blow up a star otherwise, but that would certainly be an easy way in a universe with teleportation technology based on transitioning through the warp. They could just teleport a bit of the sun away, and voila, supernova. The Tau could do it if they had higher understanding of warp-tech. The supernova thing wouldn't be the problem, the galaxy-wide near-instantaneous communication to machines capable of causing supernovas would be; something that would be possible with warp manipulation.
The Necrons do not use the Warp. They have never used the Warp, and have no Warp based technology because as it turns out, you have to be psychic in order to use psychic tech. The best they could do is hack the web-way, and that's only possible through pure-science dimensional nonsense, and even then if they don't move fast enough they will get destroyed in there, as they do not have the tech to handle it.
Stop making incorrect assumptions about the Necrons and read their codex. No where does it say that they use the Warp, and says they are incapable of doing so without cheating (ie. The Dolmen Gates. Coincidently the Dolmen Gates are also the most stupid thing about the new lore. Go figure)
Grey Templar wrote: I believe the Necron FTL method involves bending space. Much like how Star Trek "warp" drives work.
Thus you never ever actually exceed the speed of light, but cross vast distances. And no time distortion either.
And so the Necrons can cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye without using the Warp.
and yet if they can move faster than entities that use the warp, how is it that they lost?
The Old Ones cheated. You can move as fast all you want, but that's not going to help when your enemy knows exactly what your next move will be. So the necrons cheated even harder with the C'tan.
Co'tor Shas wrote: No, Even their height, humanity never surpassed the eldar in all there glory. Maybe the eldar now, but i doubt it. What should be remembered is that for max tech the:scale is"
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Imperium
4. Tau
But for median tech it is:
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Tau
4. Imperium
I was referring to science based technology. Eldar science is linked and boosted inextricably by their immense psyker abilities.
And what constitutes medium tech? Pound for pound, space marines alone are equal to tau and surpass them in many ways.
Median tech. What does the middle individual have? I use medium because it is more fair than average for this purpose, but you would probably get what I was saying if Isaid average tech.
And no, space marines are not higherr tech than, I don't know, crisis suits. Riptides. Even stealth suits.
Power armor, terminator armor, artificer armor, centurion armor, dreadnaught armor.
As far as median technology, fire warriors are no more median than space marines.
Co'tor Shas wrote: No, Even their height, humanity never surpassed the eldar in all there glory. Maybe the eldar now, but i doubt it. What should be remembered is that for max tech the:scale is"
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Imperium
4. Tau
But for median tech it is:
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Tau
4. Imperium
I was referring to science based technology. Eldar science is linked and boosted inextricably by their immense psyker abilities.
And what constitutes medium tech? Pound for pound, space marines alone are equal to tau and surpass them in many ways.
Median tech. What does the middle individual have? I use medium because it is more fair than average for this purpose, but you would probably get what I was saying if Isaid average tech.
And no, space marines are not higher tech than, I don't know, crisis suits. Riptides. Even stealth suits.
Power armor, terminator armor, artificer armor, centurion armor, dreadnaught armor.
As far as median technology, fire warriors are no more median than space marines.
A space marine is rare. Very rare. It is no where near the median tech level of the imperium. The medium tech level of the imperium is barley above us, if that. For their armed forces, IG are the median. For tau, they all have the high tech stuff.
Yeah, Space Marines are not the median. The median would be somewhere between Imperial Guard and the Schola.
I think Stormtroopers might be a good medium; they have affordable yet effective equipment, as opposed to the IG who have some cheap, easily manufactured stuff.
Keep in mind that the reason why the average Tau has better equipment is because the Tau is not as burdened by logistics as the IoM; the IoM has to quickly churn out enough equipment to arm several billion soldiers across several hundred sectors. They don't have time to give everyone carapace armor and hellguns, especially when it will most likely get lost on the battlefield.
The median technology of the imperium is far ahead of our tech levels.
You are talking about an empire that is at least passably capable of maintianing a million planet empire with the logisitical ability of feeding trillions of citizens, maintaining hive worlds, one of which alone is potentially equal to the entire Tau population, forge worlds pumping more munitions in a year than the entire Tau empire has used in its entire existence, and a system able to move many times the entire tau population around the galaxy.
Lets not get too crazy downplaying the basic capabilities of the imperium.
You mis-understand tau. There is no buying things, you are given it. You are given high-tech stuff that is for your job. The earth caste )which are the workers) use things like drones to help with their jobs.
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PhillyT wrote: So you are arguing that the median technology for the tau is equal to their specific warrior caste?
Okay. Who is the Imperiums warrior caste?
No, I am arguing that all castes have the same level of tech. For tau, civilian tech is just as important as military tech.
So what your saying is if you put arbitrary limits on what tech you can include you come out with the result you want? The IoM as a society is structured very differently to the Tau Empire. Many things the Tau create are far inferior to IoM, some are superior. Limiting it to the tech a single person can carry, or even own, is just silly.
Co'tor Shas wrote: It's a good median. How about this, how advanced is the average tech, tau still win on that one.
ok first of all sometimes it gets hard to describe something as nessscarily being more advanced. one needs to step back and look at the context. the IoM has lots of high tech, but doesn't nesscarily deploy it because lives are cheap. it's easier just to produce basic easy to make stuff in HUGE numbers, and bury their opponents under weight of numbers (space Marines represent the kind of equipment you could expect from the IoM if they took a "every life is precious let's equip our guys in the best way we can money is no object!" mentality)
the Tau and IoM have a VERY VERY VERY VERY differnt approuch to logistics. you IMHO can't really compare the two. the Tau basicly equip their troops with some of the best tech they have. the IoM equips their troops with the MOST RELIABLE tech they have.
Co'tor Shas wrote: It's a good median. How about this, how advanced is the average tech, tau still win on that one.
It's not. Like I said, it ignores the fact that the IoM is set up in a very different way. It uses much more mass labour and much more large, fixed machines. It's like comparing a wafer fab to an electrician and concluding that the electrician has more technologically advanced tools because he has a multi meter in his pocket and the worker at the wafer fab has nothing.
How do you define average? The IoM's biological and cybernetic equipment is far more advanced, their ships are far more advanced. They have much more advanced medicine, amour, many of the weapons are more advances. Tau have rail tech, but do they have any laser weapons? Their plasma is more reliable but not as powerful. I don't think Tau even have any weapons that are exterminatus level.
Co'tor Shas wrote: It's a good median. How about this, how advanced is the average tech, tau still win on that one.
ok first of all sometimes it gets hard to describe something as nessscarily being more advanced. one needs to step back and look at the context. the IoM has lots of high tech, but doesn't nesscarily deploy it because lives are cheap. it's easier just to produce basic easy to make stuff in HUGE numbers, and bury their opponents under weight of numbers (space Marines represent the kind of equipment you could expect from the IoM if they took a "every life is precious let's equip our guys in the best way we can money is no object!" mentality)
the Tau and IoM have a VERY VERY VERY VERY differnt approuch to logistics. you IMHO can't really compare the two. the Tau basicly equip their troops with some of the best tech they have. the IoM equips their troops with the MOST RELIABLE tech they have.
I agree, that's why I have two different lists, one for max tech (imp above tau) and one fore median or average tech (tau above imp). There is not question that the imperium has better tech than the tau, it's just that all the tau tech is (relatively) easily producible. It isn't something like a bolter, where a few clips of ammunition can be as expensive as the weapon itself.
Co'tor Shas wrote: It's a good median. How about this, how advanced is the average tech, tau still win on that one.
ok first of all sometimes it gets hard to describe something as nessscarily being more advanced. one needs to step back and look at the context. the IoM has lots of high tech, but doesn't nesscarily deploy it because lives are cheap. it's easier just to produce basic easy to make stuff in HUGE numbers, and bury their opponents under weight of numbers (space Marines represent the kind of equipment you could expect from the IoM if they took a "every life is precious let's equip our guys in the best way we can money is no object!" mentality)
the Tau and IoM have a VERY VERY VERY VERY differnt approuch to logistics. you IMHO can't really compare the two. the Tau basicly equip their troops with some of the best tech they have. the IoM equips their troops with the MOST RELIABLE tech they have.
Indeed. The closest real world equivalent I could think of is NATO and the USSR.
NATO gives it's soldiers the best tech they can acquire. The USSR gave their soldiers reliable but fairly basic armaments.
If you are trying to define median tech by what your average imperial has in their pockets, that isn't an accurate way to describe it.
Armageddon featured battles inside factories where chimera where being produced in an automated fashion, equipped with guns, and driven off the assembly line directly into combat INSIDE THE FACTORY THEY WERE MADE IN. During that conflict, the Imperium produced and deployed more on one forge world than the tau have probably ever produced in any iteration of their technology.
You can't restrict median tech to pockets when the job of your average forge world laborer is to push a button. They are different jobs. If the imperial method produces more vehicles of comparable ability at a much faster rate, how can that be lower tech? It just goes back to the lack of comparison.
What does it look like when the imperium equips its mid level soldiers, stormtroopers? A lot like how the tau equip their best soldiers. carapace armor and a hot shot lasgun, which is comparable to a tau rifle. Guardsmen are more akin to kroot in that they have what they need, but aren't really given enough to survive because it isn't really essential.
I agree, that's why I have two different lists, one for max tech (imp above tau) and one fore median or average tech (tau above imp). There is not question that the imperium has better tech than the tau, it's just that all the tau tech is (relatively) easily producible. It isn't something like a bolter, where a few clips of ammunition can be as expensive as the weapon itself.
Tau tech is relatively easy to produce on the scale they have to do it. Produce on a hand full of worlds with easy supply lines and lots of control. Could they produce it on the scale of the las gun? Something that has been built by the billion, using whatever raw materials are available on the planet, can be field stripped and rebuilt by someone from a tribal world with a few weeks training, who's prior experience with technology was learning to use a flint and tinder or make a stone axe, and be re-loaded by chucking the power pack in a fire for a short while if needs be. Never mind the scale, is the Tau pulse rifle advanced enough to be that simple to use yet still effective? It's a different definition of advanced.
PhillyT wrote: The median technology of the imperium is far ahead of our tech levels.
You are talking about an empire that is at least passably capable of maintianing a million planet empire with the logisitical ability of feeding trillions of citizens, maintaining hive worlds, one of which alone is potentially equal to the entire Tau population, forge worlds pumping more munitions in a year than the entire Tau empire has used in its entire existence, and a system able to move many times the entire tau population around the galaxy.
Lets not get too crazy downplaying the basic capabilities of the imperium.
Not trillions of citizens. Quadrillions. I actually ran a calc somewhere of the calories the Imperium would need to ship daily to just a couple thousand Hive Worlds with a population of 100 billion or something.
Indeed. The closest real world equivalent I could think of is NATO and the USSR.
NATO gives it's soldiers the best tech they can acquire. The USSR gave their soldiers reliable but fairly basic armaments.
This isn't really true. The various top level armaments and munitions for the USSR and NATO were roughly the same with only tactical goals defining a difference ie. Abrams were made to be fast and multi-roled while T80 were made for massed tank warfare on the European front.
The top level planes were similarly effective, though NATO often had more of the newest versions due to having a larger population.
On the soldier level, there was no difference in performance for infantry weapons. An M4 and an AK105 are about the same in terms of potential suppression and killing. M16 were about the same as AKM.
Indeed. The closest real world equivalent I could think of is NATO and the USSR.
NATO gives it's soldiers the best tech they can acquire. The USSR gave their soldiers reliable but fairly basic armaments.
This isn't really true. The various top level armaments and munitions for the USSR and NATO were roughly the same with only tactical goals defining a difference ie. Abrams were made to be fast and multi-roled while T80 were made for massed tank warfare on the European front.
The top level planes were similarly effective, though NATO often had more of the newest versions due to having a larger population.
On the soldier level, there was no difference in performance for infantry weapons. An M4 and an AK105 are about the same in terms of potential suppression and killing. M16 were about the same as AKM.
And from a logistics perspective I'd happily take an AKM over an M16A1. AKM's are hardier and easier to clean, do a lot more damage if they hit (and arguably the greater mass of the bullet probably has a slightly better ability to suppress), plus it penetrates better than the 5.56. The only downfall of the AK's is that with the larger caliber (excluding the AK-74, which IIRC is the same caliber as NATO 5.56), they're harder to control when shooting.
Actually, they both had some pretty different design philosophies. They were both on roughly the same tech level, it's just that the Soviets were more into mass production.
The M16 and its variants are made by dozens of manufactures around the world, to the highest standards "the goal of which is to ensure that products designed for military use meet the necessary requirements with regard to quality, durability, ruggedness, commonality, interchangeability, total cost of ownership, logistics and other military and defense-related objectives."
The AK-47 was designed to be a cheap, simple, easy to manufacture assault rifle,[272] perfectly matching Soviet military doctrine that treats equipment and weapons as disposable items.
Also, the AKs tend to be more easily mass produced
At peak production, Colt's manufacturing capacity was approximately 333,000 units per year
At peak production, Kalashnikov Concern (formerly Izhmash)[1] can produce around 95 units per hour (about 832,000 units per year).
Also note that the M16 was made out of an aluminium alloy, a more "advanced" material. The AKs tended to be made out of simple steel and wood.
Indeed. The closest real world equivalent I could think of is NATO and the USSR.
NATO gives it's soldiers the best tech they can acquire. The USSR gave their soldiers reliable but fairly basic armaments.
This isn't really true. The various top level armaments and munitions for the USSR and NATO were roughly the same with only tactical goals defining a difference ie. Abrams were made to be fast and multi-roled while T80 were made for massed tank warfare on the European front.
The top level planes were similarly effective, though NATO often had more of the newest versions due to having a larger population.
On the soldier level, there was no difference in performance for infantry weapons. An M4 and an AK105 are about the same in terms of potential suppression and killing. M16 were about the same as AKM.
And from a logistics perspective I'd happily take an AKM over an M16A1. AKM's are hardier and easier to clean, do a lot more damage if they hit (and arguably the greater mass of the bullet probably has a slightly better ability to suppress), plus it penetrates better than the 5.56. The only downfall of the AK's is that with the larger caliber (excluding the AK-74, which IIRC is the same caliber as NATO 5.56), they're harder to control when shooting.
They are heavier and less accurate though, and the M16 is a bit more ergonomic. For long campaigns the AK is probably better though.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau median is about at the level of a fire warrior, all tau have the high-tech stuff, because it is not high-tech to them.
Citation needed. What's the percentage of Fire Warriors to, say, Earth Caste?
A lot more earth caste, as the earth caste to all the production and design/
Then the FW is not the median, and is thus not eligible for use as a point of comparison to the median.
It's the median for armed forces (which is what we are going on mostly). The thing with tau is that there is very little info on tau outside of their army. We do know that most hard labor is done with drones (or possibly not, it's hard to tell). Also, tau don't appear to "own" anything, they have stuff that they are given.
Because they're space-Communists. There's no personal property in Communism.
However, if we want to compare median infantry to median infantry between the Tau and the Imperium, we'd need a breakdown of their organizational charts. While the FW is the baseline Tau soldier... how many Kroot or Vespid or insert-other-member-species-here do they actually field, compared to the Fire Warriors? Obviously, the FW get the focus since that's the product line, but in-universe, do 100 FW show up to support 50,000 Vespid Swarm-Warriors? This would put the FW more on the level of Stormtroopers or even Space Marines.
Indeed. The closest real world equivalent I could think of is NATO and the USSR.
NATO gives it's soldiers the best tech they can acquire. The USSR gave their soldiers reliable but fairly basic armaments.
This isn't really true. The various top level armaments and munitions for the USSR and NATO were roughly the same with only tactical goals defining a difference ie. Abrams were made to be fast and multi-roled while T80 were made for massed tank warfare on the European front.
The top level planes were similarly effective, though NATO often had more of the newest versions due to having a larger population.
On the soldier level, there was no difference in performance for infantry weapons. An M4 and an AK105 are about the same in terms of potential suppression and killing. M16 were about the same as AKM.
not sure about that. Nato Aircraft were usually a mark above their eastern block counterparts or they were 5-10 years older. In addition the real high tech expensive things the USSR had no answers to. Stealth aircraft? Silent Submarines? Super Carriers?
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: For the record, plasma pulse technology is not the same as plasma-rifle technology.
Plasma rifle technology is the stuff pretty much everyone has. Imperial STC, Eldar etc. It contains plasma then spits it out. Containment is the main difference between STC and Tau designs. The Tau aren't expendables and demand reliability from standard equipment. Frankly, that's a better technological philosophy than the AdMech has.
Plasma pulse technology converts ammunition into plasma and then fires it. It can be and is upscaled beyond that of man-portable weaponry. It is far more advanced, because it takes the concepts of plasma weaponry and that of mass accelerators to produce a weapon more powerful than a bolter yet easily mass produced like a lasgun. Oh, and they've also bolted a gyroscopic aim stabiliser and auto-aim features to that as well.
So yeah, the Tau have mastered Plasma weaponry, because they're not only able to construct plasma weapons, but they've applied the scientific principles to create a whole other class of weaponry around it.
The Tau are the most advanced race when it comes to what you could call the science of the Materium. However, the 40k Universe also contains the Immaterium, of which the Eldar are masters and which gives the Imperium an edge on the Tau in areas like FTL travel, teleportation etc. The Tau are catching up by the end of M41 though.
Not exactly. Have you seen the size of Tau plasma weapons? They aren't hand-held. The Imperium have compressed their tech, I'm sure if they unworked the plasma gun and made it with more complicated and larger components they could make one of just as much strength but without a chance of hurting the user. That is if they mounted it on Terminators, which the Dark Angels actually do, with no side-effects.
Psienesis wrote: Because they're space-Communists. There's no personal property in Communism.
However, if we want to compare median infantry to median infantry between the Tau and the Imperium, we'd need a breakdown of their organizational charts. While the FW is the baseline Tau soldier... how many Kroot or Vespid or insert-other-member-species-here do they actually field, compared to the Fire Warriors? Obviously, the FW get the focus since that's the product line, but in-universe, do 100 FW show up to support 50,000 Vespid Swarm-Warriors? This would put the FW more on the level of Stormtroopers or even Space Marines.
FWs are the backbone of the tau military. They are the vast majority. Kroot an vespids are only the majority on kroot or vespid planets.
Co'tor Shas wrote:It's a good median. How about this, how advanced is the average tech, tau still win on that one.
Only because sample size massively skews the mathematical average.
Say the four castes are of roughly equal size. The sample is still relatively small - perhaps a trillion Tau, a quarter of which are Fire Warriors. The 'average' tech level is going to be much higher than the IoM's because you're looking at comparing a quarter of a trillion against several hundred trillion.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote: And the USSR had a lot of soldiers. Hey, this reminds me of something.
Yep.
The USSR is actually very similar to the IoM. The IoM even have a shrine to a preserved dead guy
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: For the record, plasma pulse technology is not the same as plasma-rifle technology.
Plasma rifle technology is the stuff pretty much everyone has. Imperial STC, Eldar etc. It contains plasma then spits it out. Containment is the main difference between STC and Tau designs. The Tau aren't expendables and demand reliability from standard equipment. Frankly, that's a better technological philosophy than the AdMech has.
Plasma pulse technology converts ammunition into plasma and then fires it. It can be and is upscaled beyond that of man-portable weaponry. It is far more advanced, because it takes the concepts of plasma weaponry and that of mass accelerators to produce a weapon more powerful than a bolter yet easily mass produced like a lasgun. Oh, and they've also bolted a gyroscopic aim stabiliser and auto-aim features to that as well.
So yeah, the Tau have mastered Plasma weaponry, because they're not only able to construct plasma weapons, but they've applied the scientific principles to create a whole other class of weaponry around it.
The Tau are the most advanced race when it comes to what you could call the science of the Materium. However, the 40k Universe also contains the Immaterium, of which the Eldar are masters and which gives the Imperium an edge on the Tau in areas like FTL travel, teleportation etc. The Tau are catching up by the end of M41 though.
Not exactly. Have you seen the size of Tau plasma weapons? They aren't hand-held. The Imperium have compressed their tech, I'm sure if they unworked the plasma gun and made it with more complicated and larger components they could make one of just as much strength but without a chance of hurting the user. That is if they mounted it on Terminators, which the Dark Angels actually do, with no side-effects.
Terminators can take plasma guns outside of HH since when?
Indeed. The closest real world equivalent I could think of is NATO and the USSR.
NATO gives it's soldiers the best tech they can acquire. The USSR gave their soldiers reliable but fairly basic armaments.
This isn't really true. The various top level armaments and munitions for the USSR and NATO were roughly the same with only tactical goals defining a difference ie. Abrams were made to be fast and multi-roled while T80 were made for massed tank warfare on the European front.
The top level planes were similarly effective, though NATO often had more of the newest versions due to having a larger population.
On the soldier level, there was no difference in performance for infantry weapons. An M4 and an AK105 are about the same in terms of potential suppression and killing. M16 were about the same as AKM.
not sure about that. Nato Aircraft were usually a mark above their eastern block counterparts or they were 5-10 years older. In addition the real high tech expensive things the USSR had no answers to. Stealth aircraft? Silent Submarines? Super Carriers?
The S-300 and S-400 have never gone up against American stealth aircraft. We're not entirely sure how such a scenario would play out.
As for the sea war, the USSR never planned on winning at sea- just holding the Americans long enough to finish off Western Europe with its 90-some armored/mechanized divisions (I think the 90 figure was both, but it might have just been armored, and it might have included infantry as well). The Russian plan against carriers were their own submarines- some of which were very good- and missile-armed cruisers. How successful they might have been is debatable, but we did spend a lot of money developing the Aegis system to defend against such an attack.
In the hands of good Soviet pilots, a MiG-31 or MiG-29 compares similarly to the F-15 or F-16, respectively. At the latter end of the Cold War, if we'd gone to war in '88 or '89, the Su-27 would have torn the USAF and Navy to ribbons. The R-27 missile far outclassed anything the Americans had during the cold war and the plane itself is more agile than anything the US fielded.
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: For the record, plasma pulse technology is not the same as plasma-rifle technology.
Plasma rifle technology is the stuff pretty much everyone has. Imperial STC, Eldar etc. It contains plasma then spits it out. Containment is the main difference between STC and Tau designs. The Tau aren't expendables and demand reliability from standard equipment. Frankly, that's a better technological philosophy than the AdMech has.
Plasma pulse technology converts ammunition into plasma and then fires it. It can be and is upscaled beyond that of man-portable weaponry. It is far more advanced, because it takes the concepts of plasma weaponry and that of mass accelerators to produce a weapon more powerful than a bolter yet easily mass produced like a lasgun. Oh, and they've also bolted a gyroscopic aim stabiliser and auto-aim features to that as well.
So yeah, the Tau have mastered Plasma weaponry, because they're not only able to construct plasma weapons, but they've applied the scientific principles to create a whole other class of weaponry around it.
The Tau are the most advanced race when it comes to what you could call the science of the Materium. However, the 40k Universe also contains the Immaterium, of which the Eldar are masters and which gives the Imperium an edge on the Tau in areas like FTL travel, teleportation etc. The Tau are catching up by the end of M41 though.
Not exactly. Have you seen the size of Tau plasma weapons? They aren't hand-held. The Imperium have compressed their tech, I'm sure if they unworked the plasma gun and made it with more complicated and larger components they could make one of just as much strength but without a chance of hurting the user. That is if they mounted it on Terminators, which the Dark Angels actually do, with no side-effects.
The tau had plasma weaponry before they encountered humans (after the warp storm). In the fluff, tau plasma rifles are stronger than something like a plasma pistol (being that it fire more plasma), but it still "less powerful" Than it could be (i.e. they decide to sensibly make it so the don't explode).
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: For the record, plasma pulse technology is not the same as plasma-rifle technology.
Plasma rifle technology is the stuff pretty much everyone has. Imperial STC, Eldar etc. It contains plasma then spits it out. Containment is the main difference between STC and Tau designs. The Tau aren't expendables and demand reliability from standard equipment. Frankly, that's a better technological philosophy than the AdMech has.
Plasma pulse technology converts ammunition into plasma and then fires it. It can be and is upscaled beyond that of man-portable weaponry. It is far more advanced, because it takes the concepts of plasma weaponry and that of mass accelerators to produce a weapon more powerful than a bolter yet easily mass produced like a lasgun. Oh, and they've also bolted a gyroscopic aim stabiliser and auto-aim features to that as well.
So yeah, the Tau have mastered Plasma weaponry, because they're not only able to construct plasma weapons, but they've applied the scientific principles to create a whole other class of weaponry around it.
The Tau are the most advanced race when it comes to what you could call the science of the Materium. However, the 40k Universe also contains the Immaterium, of which the Eldar are masters and which gives the Imperium an edge on the Tau in areas like FTL travel, teleportation etc. The Tau are catching up by the end of M41 though.
Not exactly. Have you seen the size of Tau plasma weapons? They aren't hand-held. The Imperium have compressed their tech, I'm sure if they unworked the plasma gun and made it with more complicated and larger components they could make one of just as much strength but without a chance of hurting the user. That is if they mounted it on Terminators, which the Dark Angels actually do, with no side-effects.
Terminators can take plasma guns outside of HH since when?
Not exactly. Have you seen the size of Tau plasma weapons? They aren't hand-held. The Imperium have compressed their tech, I'm sure if they unworked the plasma gun and made it with more complicated and larger components they could make one of just as much strength but without a chance of hurting the user. That is if they mounted it on Terminators, which the Dark Angels actually do, with no side-effects.
The Imperium didn't "compress" the technology. Someone dug up an STC that someone else- most certainly not the IoM and probably not even someone human- and the IoM mass-produced it with absolutely no idea how or why it works.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: Because they're space-Communists. There's no personal property in Communism.
However, if we want to compare median infantry to median infantry between the Tau and the Imperium, we'd need a breakdown of their organizational charts. While the FW is the baseline Tau soldier... how many Kroot or Vespid or insert-other-member-species-here do they actually field, compared to the Fire Warriors? Obviously, the FW get the focus since that's the product line, but in-universe, do 100 FW show up to support 50,000 Vespid Swarm-Warriors? This would put the FW more on the level of Stormtroopers or even Space Marines.
Hotshot lasgun is S3 Ap3. Neutron blaster is S5 Ap 3.
The Guild Mechanicus created the STCs and provided the technology for humanity to reach the stars and create the DAoT human empire.
The Guild Mechanicus had some setbacks, including the Iron Men, the birth of the Scrapcode virus, and then the Warp Storms of the Age of Strife. When the Iron Men rebelled, they created the traditional of Oral Manuals. When the Scrapcode virus was born, they contained it in the vaults under Mars. When the Warp Storms finished off the DAoT Empire, they suffered a horrific backlash that destroyed most of their knowledge base, forcing them to rely on a few aged survivors and their Oral Manuals. Over time, they started to treat the Oral Manuals as scripture, likely as a social control method. They still had a lot of old tech, though.
Then the Unification Wars ended, and the Great Crusade began, with a lot of DAoT tech still in use. Then Kelbor Hal unleashed the Scrapcode virus again, destroying everything and literally reducing the Guild Mechanicus to a handful of survivors, who renamed themselves the Adeptus Mechanicum during the post-heresy rebuilding of society and the foundation of the Imperium of Man as we know it today.
That is how it happened.
The STCs are of human make.
The DAoT is a real thing that happened in the future history of 40k.
That is where all the evidence points. That is what has been outright stated by characters in universe. That is what the fluff documents state.
They are heavier and less accurate though, and the M16 is a bit more ergonomic. For long campaigns the AK is probably better though.
The AM is also a lot more reliable. An M-16 jams easily without constant cleaning. An AK is tougher, handles sand and snow better.
A jammed M-16 is slightly behind par with a steel-tipped spear.
Yep, which is why the AKM is superior on long campaigns.
For a special ops sort of thing the M16 would be better due to its weight, range and accuracy.
For long periods of combat or constant exposure to the elements the Russian assault rifle is better hands down.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau median is about at the level of a fire warrior, all tau have the high-tech stuff, because it is not high-tech to them.
Citation needed. What's the percentage of Fire Warriors to, say, Earth Caste?
A lot more earth caste, as the earth caste to all the production and design/
Then the FW is not the median, and is thus not eligible for use as a point of comparison to the median.
I'm not sure that's a smart thing to say, since the median human in the Imperium is probably at the same tech level as Earth right now. There's a crap ton of worlds in the Imperium in the stone, bronze, and iron ages. (Fenris comes readily to mind)
In the Tau Empire, everyone has access to drones. Every soldier has access to pulse rifles. Every one of all castes have access to computers. In the Imperium, sections of the population (large enough to get mention in the core rulebook) lack access to electricity.
They are heavier and less accurate though, and the M16 is a bit more ergonomic. For long campaigns the AK is probably better though.
The AM is also a lot more reliable. An M-16 jams easily without constant cleaning. An AK is tougher, handles sand and snow better.
A jammed M-16 is slightly behind par with a steel-tipped spear.
Yep, which is why the AKM is superior on long campaigns.
For a special ops sort of thing the M16 would be better due to its weight, range and accuracy.
For long periods of combat or constant exposure to the elements the Russian assault rifle is better hands down.
Not to mention in a long protracted war, 7.62 is incredibly easy to find virtually everywhere.
Psienesis wrote: Because they're space-Communists. There's no personal property in Communism.
However, if we want to compare median infantry to median infantry between the Tau and the Imperium, we'd need a breakdown of their organizational charts. While the FW is the baseline Tau soldier... how many Kroot or Vespid or insert-other-member-species-here do they actually field, compared to the Fire Warriors? Obviously, the FW get the focus since that's the product line, but in-universe, do 100 FW show up to support 50,000 Vespid Swarm-Warriors? This would put the FW more on the level of Stormtroopers or even Space Marines.
Hotshot lasgun is S3 Ap3. Neutron blaster is S5 Ap 3.
The HSL also has a higher rate of fire and longer range, iirc.
Power isn't everything. Though it certainly helps.
Indeed. The closest real world equivalent I could think of is NATO and the USSR.
NATO gives it's soldiers the best tech they can acquire. The USSR gave their soldiers reliable but fairly basic armaments.
This isn't really true. The various top level armaments and munitions for the USSR and NATO were roughly the same with only tactical goals defining a difference ie. Abrams were made to be fast and multi-roled while T80 were made for massed tank warfare on the European front.
The top level planes were similarly effective, though NATO often had more of the newest versions due to having a larger population.
On the soldier level, there was no difference in performance for infantry weapons. An M4 and an AK105 are about the same in terms of potential suppression and killing. M16 were about the same as AKM.
not sure about that. Nato Aircraft were usually a mark above their eastern block counterparts or they were 5-10 years older. In addition the real high tech expensive things the USSR had no answers to. Stealth aircraft? Silent Submarines? Super Carriers?
The S-300 and S-400 have never gone up against American stealth aircraft. We're not entirely sure how such a scenario would play out.
As for the sea war, the USSR never planned on winning at sea- just holding the Americans long enough to finish off Western Europe with its 90-some armored/mechanized divisions (I think the 90 figure was both, but it might have just been armored, and it might have included infantry as well). The Russian plan against carriers were their own submarines- some of which were very good- and missile-armed cruisers. How successful they might have been is debatable, but we did spend a lot of money developing the Aegis system to defend against such an attack.
USSR subs were not match for US and even british subs. They stayed in the Arctic Ocean to launch long range strikes or to try to patrol coastal waters for US boombers.
The USSR did spend a considerable amount of money building aircraft carriers like Kiev and Admiral Kuznetsof classes. Though smaller, the Admiral Kuznetsof class were nearly as long and wide as the Nimitz class, although they lacked nuclear power and advanced electronics. If they were comfortable with their ground troops, one would wonder why they spent all that money on aircraft carriers.
In the hands of good Soviet pilots, a MiG-31 or MiG-29 compares similarly to the F-15 or F-16, respectively. At the latter end of the Cold War, if we'd gone to war in '88 or '89, the Su-27 would have torn the USAF and Navy to ribbons. The R-27 missile far outclassed anything the Americans had during the cold war and the plane itself is more agile than anything the US fielded.
My point exactly. The USSR equivalent tech came about a decade after the US aircraft entered service.
The F15 was introduced into front line service 3 years before the MIG29 got off the ground and 7 years before the MIG 29 entered service
The F16 was only 2 years behind the F15 and thus also beat the MIG29 into service by 5 years.
The MIG31 was merely an upgrade of the MIG25, lacked maneuverability or multirole functionality. It's very fast in a straight line and has decent radar and missiles to engage bombers at range. It is not a particularly effective air superiority fighter. The SU27 is a better match for the F-15, but it did not enter service until 1985, 9 years after the F-15 was deployed.
It is true that the SU-27 is probably better than the F-15, but the US has moved on. No one is likely to think it in the same class as the F-22.
They are heavier and less accurate though, and the M16 is a bit more ergonomic. For long campaigns the AK is probably better though.
The AM is also a lot more reliable. An M-16 jams easily without constant cleaning. An AK is tougher, handles sand and snow better.
A jammed M-16 is slightly behind par with a steel-tipped spear.
Yep, which is why the AKM is superior on long campaigns.
For a special ops sort of thing the M16 would be better due to its weight, range and accuracy.
For long periods of combat or constant exposure to the elements the Russian assault rifle is better hands down.
I agree. A lot of Westerners like to crap on the Russians simply because they're not Western. There are a number of key areas (air-to-air missiles, active defenses on tanks, aerodynamics) where the Russians (and the Soviets before) are fielding systems much better than their western counterparts.
I imagine if we had a thread comparing US air to air missiles to Russian missiles, we'd see a lot of overlap between pro-westerners there and people here who say stupid things like "humanity used to be on the same technological level as the Eldar" or "bolters are better than pulse rifles, it's just GW had to make the game balanced."
The Imperium didn't "compress" the technology. Someone dug up an STC that someone else- most certainly not the IoM and probably not even someone human- and the IoM mass-produced it with absolutely no idea how or why it works.
STC is technology that is human in origin, from the time when Mankind began colonizing the galaxy, and most certainly had complete and total understanding of the technology (which is how they build a "press button, receive tank" construction platform) involved.
To suggest that it was not shows a profound lack of understanding of what you're arguing against, it also indicates a lack of knowledge in understanding why the AdMech has such an in-universe focus on recovering an intact STC. A fully-functional STC restores Mankind's scientific understanding to Eldar levels.
Hotshot lasgun is S3 Ap3. Neutron blaster is S5 Ap 3.
With 18" range vs 12"... sure, the Vespid hit harder, but they have to walk into the Stormtrooper's killing field in order to fire... and the ST has superior armor (4+ T3 vs 6+ T3).
I imagine if we had a thread comparing US air to air missiles to Russian missiles, we'd see a lot of overlap between pro-westerners there and people here who say stupid things like "humanity used to be on the same technological level as the Eldar" or "bolters are better than pulse rifles, it's just GW had to make the game balanced."
Ah, so now we're resorting to ad hominem attacks? 'K. Done with you.
So the real question rather than all this Tau circle jerkin, the question of is most archeotech of human origin?
its a giant obnoxious maybe
its definitely not Tau tech as they had not existed back when.
It is entirely possible during or before the DAoT they could of come up or traded for a lot of there tech. its just crap tastic now because of grim dark fear and stuff.
Edit: Ya know the neutron blaster and hotshot lasgun works completely differently right? its like apples and cumquats.
Psienesis wrote: Because they're space-Communists. There's no personal property in Communism.
However, if we want to compare median infantry to median infantry between the Tau and the Imperium, we'd need a breakdown of their organizational charts. While the FW is the baseline Tau soldier... how many Kroot or Vespid or insert-other-member-species-here do they actually field, compared to the Fire Warriors? Obviously, the FW get the focus since that's the product line, but in-universe, do 100 FW show up to support 50,000 Vespid Swarm-Warriors? This would put the FW more on the level of Stormtroopers or even Space Marines.
Hotshot lasgun is S3 Ap3. Neutron blaster is S5 Ap 3.
The HSL also has a higher rate of fire and longer range, iirc.
Power isn't everything. Though it certainly helps.
The HSL and NB both have 18" range. The HSL is rapid fire and the NB is assault 1. The HSL can't be fired before a charge- which is what the NB is designed for (theoretically, because in actuality Vespids lack the stats to back up their purpose in fluff). In other words, the point at which a HSL gets an extra shot is roughly the same point at which NBs fire and are followed up by melee combat from jump troops.
Indeed. The closest real world equivalent I could think of is NATO and the USSR.
NATO gives it's soldiers the best tech they can acquire. The USSR gave their soldiers reliable but fairly basic armaments.
This isn't really true. The various top level armaments and munitions for the USSR and NATO were roughly the same with only tactical goals defining a difference ie. Abrams were made to be fast and multi-roled while T80 were made for massed tank warfare on the European front.
The top level planes were similarly effective, though NATO often had more of the newest versions due to having a larger population.
On the soldier level, there was no difference in performance for infantry weapons. An M4 and an AK105 are about the same in terms of potential suppression and killing. M16 were about the same as AKM.
not sure about that. Nato Aircraft were usually a mark above their eastern block counterparts or they were 5-10 years older. In addition the real high tech expensive things the USSR had no answers to. Stealth aircraft? Silent Submarines? Super Carriers?
The S-300 and S-400 have never gone up against American stealth aircraft. We're not entirely sure how such a scenario would play out.
As for the sea war, the USSR never planned on winning at sea- just holding the Americans long enough to finish off Western Europe with its 90-some armored/mechanized divisions (I think the 90 figure was both, but it might have just been armored, and it might have included infantry as well). The Russian plan against carriers were their own submarines- some of which were very good- and missile-armed cruisers. How successful they might have been is debatable, but we did spend a lot of money developing the Aegis system to defend against such an attack.
USSR subs were not match for US and even british subs. They stayed in the Arctic Ocean to launch long range strikes or to try to patrol coastal waters for US boombers.
The USSR did spend a considerable amount of money building aircraft carriers like Kiev and Admiral Kuznetsof classes. Though smaller, the Admiral Kuznetsof class were nearly as long and wide as the Nimitz class, although they lacked nuclear power and advanced electronics. If they were comfortable with their ground troops, one would wonder why they spent all that money on aircraft carriers.
In the hands of good Soviet pilots, a MiG-31 or MiG-29 compares similarly to the F-15 or F-16, respectively. At the latter end of the Cold War, if we'd gone to war in '88 or '89, the Su-27 would have torn the USAF and Navy to ribbons. The R-27 missile far outclassed anything the Americans had during the cold war and the plane itself is more agile than anything the US fielded.
My point exactly. The USSR equivalent tech came about a decade after the US aircraft entered service.
The F15 was introduced into front line service 3 years before the MIG29 got off the ground and 7 years before the MIG 29 entered service
The F16 was only 2 years behind the F15 and thus also beat the MIG29 into service by 5 years.
The MIG31 was merely an upgrade of the MIG25, lacked maneuverability or multirole functionality. It's very fast in a straight line and has decent radar and missiles to engage bombers at range. It is not a particularly effective air superiority fighter. The SU27 is a better match for the F-15, but it did not enter service until 1985, 9 years after the F-15 was deployed.
It is true that the SU-27 is probably better than the F-15, but the US has moved on. No one is likely to think it in the same class as the F-22.
true but that's how arms races work, one side develops a new weapon, their oppisite faction develops something to counter it.
Desubot wrote: So the real question rather than all this Tau circle jerkin, the question of is most archeotech of human origin?
its a giant obnoxious maybe
its definitely not Tau tech as they had not existed back when.
It is entirely possible during or before the DAoT they could of come up or traded for a lot of there tech. its just crap tastic now because of grim dark fear and stuff.
Edit: Ya know the neutron blaster and hotshot lasgun works completely differently right? its like apples and cumquats.
No one is claiming it's Tau...
But given the ambiguity of the past, the inability of humanity to create devices that aren't cutting-edge by IRL standards, plus the mediocrity of many items we KNOW are from the DAoT (Predator tank, I'm looking at you)... do you REALLY think that the same society that saw the Predator as adequate could create an intelligent warship? Really? I just can't buy it. Since we know from the codexes that the Predator IS DAoT technology, and we don't know much about the starship, it stands to reason that the starship was made by someone else, like the Old Ones.
Standardized chassis for easy replacement good armament with standard sized rounds that are simple to make? decent firepower for what it is
Realizing it was made to combat orks which doesn't give that much time for prep and can spout out anywhere.
seems like a great idea for accessibility rather than having to overhall EVERy manucatorium to build a brand new hover chassis for some sort of benefit..
Indeed. The closest real world equivalent I could think of is NATO and the USSR.
NATO gives it's soldiers the best tech they can acquire. The USSR gave their soldiers reliable but fairly basic armaments.
This isn't really true. The various top level armaments and munitions for the USSR and NATO were roughly the same with only tactical goals defining a difference ie. Abrams were made to be fast and multi-roled while T80 were made for massed tank warfare on the European front.
The top level planes were similarly effective, though NATO often had more of the newest versions due to having a larger population.
On the soldier level, there was no difference in performance for infantry weapons. An M4 and an AK105 are about the same in terms of potential suppression and killing. M16 were about the same as AKM.
not sure about that. Nato Aircraft were usually a mark above their eastern block counterparts or they were 5-10 years older. In addition the real high tech expensive things the USSR had no answers to. Stealth aircraft? Silent Submarines? Super Carriers?
The S-300 and S-400 have never gone up against American stealth aircraft. We're not entirely sure how such a scenario would play out.
As for the sea war, the USSR never planned on winning at sea- just holding the Americans long enough to finish off Western Europe with its 90-some armored/mechanized divisions (I think the 90 figure was both, but it might have just been armored, and it might have included infantry as well). The Russian plan against carriers were their own submarines- some of which were very good- and missile-armed cruisers. How successful they might have been is debatable, but we did spend a lot of money developing the Aegis system to defend against such an attack.
USSR subs were not match for US and even british subs. They stayed in the Arctic Ocean to launch long range strikes or to try to patrol coastal waters for US boombers.
The USSR did spend a considerable amount of money building aircraft carriers like Kiev and Admiral Kuznetsof classes. Though smaller, the Admiral Kuznetsof class were nearly as long and wide as the Nimitz class, although they lacked nuclear power and advanced electronics. If they were comfortable with their ground troops, one would wonder why they spent all that money on aircraft carriers.
In the hands of good Soviet pilots, a MiG-31 or MiG-29 compares similarly to the F-15 or F-16, respectively. At the latter end of the Cold War, if we'd gone to war in '88 or '89, the Su-27 would have torn the USAF and Navy to ribbons. The R-27 missile far outclassed anything the Americans had during the cold war and the plane itself is more agile than anything the US fielded.
My point exactly. The USSR equivalent tech came about a decade after the US aircraft entered service.
The F15 was introduced into front line service 3 years before the MIG29 got off the ground and 7 years before the MIG 29 entered service
The F16 was only 2 years behind the F15 and thus also beat the MIG29 into service by 5 years.
The MIG31 was merely an upgrade of the MIG25, lacked maneuverability or multirole functionality. It's very fast in a straight line and has decent radar and missiles to engage bombers at range. It is not a particularly effective air superiority fighter. The SU27 is a better match for the F-15, but it did not enter service until 1985, 9 years after the F-15 was deployed.
It is true that the SU-27 is probably better than the F-15, but the US has moved on. No one is likely to think it in the same class as the F-22.
true but that's how arms races work, one side develops a new weapon, their oppisite faction develops something to counter it.
In this case, the MiG-25 prompted the F-15 as we know it, since the MiG-25 was easily the best fighter in the world at the time.
As for now? Advances in radar technology in the future may make stealth not-stealthy, meaning the more agile fighter with the best missiles wins... and that's the Su-27 and her successors.
As for the MiG-31 vs F-15... the primary armament of the MiG-31 is the AA-9, which has three times the range of the best version of Sparrow. When you can launch your full range of missiles at an enemy fighter and turn around long before said enemy can close to fight, it doesn't matter much how well you maneuver... even if most of those missiles miss, which is likely, given they were made for hitting bombers. At most points of time, the AA-6 also compares favorably to Sparrow (although it would mean a fight in which the F-15 got to fight back).
If you're comfortable with your ground troops, you spend money elsewhere.
Standardized chassis for easy replacement good armament with standard sized rounds that are simple to make? decent firepower for what it is
Realizing it was made to combat orks which doesn't give that much time for prep and can spout out anywhere.
seems like a great idea for accessibility rather than having to overhall EVERy manucatorium to build a brand new hover chassis for some sort of benefit..
We also don't know it's original purpose. It could have been a light scout tank for all we know.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau median is about at the level of a fire warrior, all tau have the high-tech stuff, because it is not high-tech to them.
Citation needed. What's the percentage of Fire Warriors to, say, Earth Caste?
A lot more earth caste, as the earth caste to all the production and design/
Then the FW is not the median, and is thus not eligible for use as a point of comparison to the median.
I'm not sure that's a smart thing to say, since the median human in the Imperium is probably at the same tech level as Earth right now. There's a crap ton of worlds in the Imperium in the stone, bronze, and iron ages. (Fenris comes readily to mind)
In the Tau Empire, everyone has access to drones. Every soldier has access to pulse rifles. Every one of all castes have access to computers. In the Imperium, sections of the population (large enough to get mention in the core rulebook) lack access to electricity.
The Tau Empire is archeotech now?
Fine, let the mechanicum dig the remnants of this Empire ( which was either overrun by orks or nids, wholly enslaved by evil space elfs, dragged into the warp, cleansed off by Crons or just suffered a Mon'Tau ) out so we get to look at another failure that wanted to compete with the Realms of the god-Emporer. Am ok with that.
So maybe if I show some patience and wait for another month, someone is going to define " best" and "archeotech" ? Maybe?
Standardized chassis for easy replacement
good armament with standard sized rounds that are simple to make?
decent firepower for what it is
Realizing it was made to combat orks which doesn't give that much time for prep and can spout out anywhere.
seems like a great idea for accessibility rather than having to overhall EVERy manucatorium to build a brand new hover chassis for some sort of benefit..
The only thing wrong with a predator is that it's mediocre. It's armament isn't great, it isn't truly amphibious, it gets held up by terrain... you can't throw it out of an aerial transport and trust it'll be just fine when it gets to the ground. Compared to its counterpart in the Tau Empire, Eldar Craftworlds, or Necron armies, it's just not that good... and it's what humanity came up with during its highest period of development.
Standardized chassis for easy replacement
good armament with standard sized rounds that are simple to make?
decent firepower for what it is
Realizing it was made to combat orks which doesn't give that much time for prep and can spout out anywhere.
seems like a great idea for accessibility rather than having to overhall EVERy manucatorium to build a brand new hover chassis for some sort of benefit..
We also don't know it's original purpose. It could have been a light scout tank for all we know.
Actually, we do. The Predator was a tank built from a rhino chassis to fight the orks when humanity first encountered them. Given that humanity needed tank to fight the orks, and didn't have something better in place, it was probably humanity's MBT during that timeframe.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau median is about at the level of a fire warrior, all tau have the high-tech stuff, because it is not high-tech to them.
Citation needed. What's the percentage of Fire Warriors to, say, Earth Caste?
A lot more earth caste, as the earth caste to all the production and design/
Then the FW is not the median, and is thus not eligible for use as a point of comparison to the median.
I'm not sure that's a smart thing to say, since the median human in the Imperium is probably at the same tech level as Earth right now. There's a crap ton of worlds in the Imperium in the stone, bronze, and iron ages. (Fenris comes readily to mind)
In the Tau Empire, everyone has access to drones. Every soldier has access to pulse rifles. Every one of all castes have access to computers. In the Imperium, sections of the population (large enough to get mention in the core rulebook) lack access to electricity.
The Tau Empire is archeotech now?
Fine, let the mechanicum dig the remnants of this Empire ( which was either overrun by orks or nids, wholly enslaved by evil space elfs, dragged into the warp, cleansed off by Crons or just suffered a Mon'Tau ) out so we get to look at another failure that wanted to compete with the Realms of the god-Emporer. Am ok with that.
So maybe if I show some patience and wait for another month, someone is going to define " best" and "archeotech" ? Maybe?
I hate to break this to you, but the conversation got sidetracked. I'm started at the latest pages and working backwards.
At any rate, the Tau will survive the Imperium. The Imperium is beset on all fronts by enemies. Abaddon has sacked Cadia, and is preparing to rip open the Eye of Terror much, MUCH wider than it is now. When it does, the daemons that flood through are heading into the Imperium. The Tau will be safely on the other side of the galaxy while the IoM burns from predation by the tyranids, necrons, and Chaos.
I also can't help but notice that your only response to my point- that large expanses of the Imperium are inhabited by people less advanced than IRL- is to change the subject.
They use what, one plasma weapon in the traditional sense and then an energy packet version. MEanwhile the Imperium has pistols, rifles, man portable plasma cannon, executioner plasma cannon, plasma destructors on titans and tanks....
You can't seriously argue that somehow Tau have "mastered" plasma.
The tau have some technology that is better than some imperial technology, rail guns being the most obvious. They also have no social hang ups on AI (though this does not mean that makes them more advanced nor does it put them ahead of DAOT humans)
While Imperials have an equivelent for everything tau field, there are plenty of areas when the Imperium has items the tau have no answer for. Power weapons of all varieties are not something the tau can produce.
The entire median issue isn't really valid. The problem boils down to will. If the Imperium wanted to equip a like number of soldiers, it could slap them in power armor and give them plasma guns. They don't need to. The process works.
And if you wanted a true median, you would look at the mid level Imperial soldier. Guard are the bottom, scion are the middle, space marine are the top. You have the ultra low on the very bottom, conscripts, and the ultra high as well, Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and assassins.
So a real median Imperial is a scion with hot shot las guns (basically the equal to pulse rifles as a whole), a couple specialist squad weapons, and carapace armor. Really the same.
In terms of top level technology, the Imperium buries the Tau. Any argument to the contrary is made along that tired line "fastest to plasma technology" which has no real validity since humanity didn't get the benefit of a warp storm to protect it, and didn't have a friendly alien race drop off etherals to pull them together.
Standardized chassis for easy replacement
good armament with standard sized rounds that are simple to make?
decent firepower for what it is
Realizing it was made to combat orks which doesn't give that much time for prep and can spout out anywhere.
seems like a great idea for accessibility rather than having to overhall EVERy manucatorium to build a brand new hover chassis for some sort of benefit..
The only thing wrong with a predator is that it's mediocre. It's armament isn't great, it isn't truly amphibious, it gets held up by terrain... you can't throw it out of an aerial transport and trust it'll be just fine when it gets to the ground. Compared to its counterpart in the Tau Empire, Eldar Craftworlds, or Necron armies, it's just not that good... and it's what humanity came up with during its highest period of development.
Mediocre but in a rediculus amounts and quick to make is a quality of its own. and realizing that Tau and Eldar do not fight the same way as the imperium as they cannot afford to hold ground with there numbers and speed.
there is no reason for the imperium to fly and drop kick preditors out of the sky because they should have 20 manufactorums within a 500 mile radius of where its needed.
They also came up with grav tech during that time to. but a little blerb from at least the land speeder section shows that the technology is sound but requires a dumb amount of specialized material and maintenance to keep them actually operational. including plasma tech iirc. you can see how that would be a problem when resources has to be shuttled across the entire galaxy rather than a few star systems or through webway cheat holes.
At any rate, the Tau will survive the Imperium. The Imperium is beset on all fronts by enemies.
Very very unlikely. All they got is a)peta-tons of plot-armor and b) the specialization "survivalist" is a Human one.
Take the Etherals away and re-boot the timeline. No artificially added ruling caste - no Tau.
Take the High Lords away and re-boot and you get.....lots of Humans. Just a different management then.
I also can't help but notice that your only response to my point- that large expanses of the Imperium are inhabited by people less advanced than IRL- is to change the subject.
Human worlds aren't clones.
Xeno worlds (aka the playable faction who would be the red-shirts in ST ) are ...
Its pretty obvious we have a range of Human worlds to built all imaginable storys on, and we have some 08/15 clones for the non-Humans.
So your point is: Humans = variety , xenos = copies. Right ?
How about the possibility to find archeotech:
- at densly populated highly indistrialized worlds
- at lowly populated stone age worlds
??
Maybe its better to have some "barbaric" worlds, where the locals won't find everything before somebody who knowns what it is does ?
Predators were not the peak of human tech in their greatest period. It is easily sustained in numbers and repairedAlso, a predator has greater armament than a hammer head.
During the great crusade, there were hover rhinos and landraiders. But you can't produce enough of them to run a real empire. IF you only have 25 systems, sure. They could have chosen that path.
Actually, we do. The Predator was a tank built from a rhino chassis to fight the orks when humanity first encountered them. Given that humanity needed tank to fight the orks, and didn't have something better in place, it was probably humanity's MBT during that timeframe.
excuse me but I distinctly remember the reading a while back that the predator is not a mbt, it is an ifv which eventually forgoed it's transport capacity to carry more ammunition. I would also like to point out that during the DaoT the baneblade chassis made up a huge part of the basic afv regiments of humanity.
In terms of advanced technology I'm going to go with humans. what we actually see on the battlefield is hugely regressed in regards to what iom actually has access to, I mean look at the inquisition. They have the munitions available to presently wipe out entire sectors of space. The main reason we don't see it often is that the majority of people are shitscared of what their own technology is capable of due to the quite horrific wars of the late 20th millennia. I mean at this point the ork menace, one of the biggest threats to all races was considered a mild nuisance to doat humanity.
thing about STC tech is it wasn't designed to nesscarily produce the most advanced tech acheivable nesscarily. rather it was to porovide something that any human colony world could produce. the predator was basicly the "cheap milita tank" it was the TECHNICAL of the DAOT.
It's a bit like if we had today's technology, but still gave our soldiers guns from WWI or II because it's all we can afford. It's a bit like that with the imperium now too, they are definitely high tech, but you wouldn't see it most of the time.
Whats kinda funny is that lots of WW2 and WW1 weapons are functionally little different from modern weapons in effectiveness.
M-16 is more accurate, but has less killing power than M1-Garands and Thompsons which fired a much larger round. Its basically trading stopping power for armor penetration and accuracy. Which is beneficial when you are fighting at range and/or facing opponents with body armor(not necessarily common) At the range most firefights occur, accuracy over distance isn't as big a concern.
We're still using the M2 .50cal, literally unchanged since it was first introduced.
If anything the finer tolerances of some of the more modern weapons are actually a little poorer because you have to keep them cleaner.
Grey Templar wrote: Whats kinda funny is that lots of WW2 and WW1 weapons are functionally little different from modern weapons in effectiveness.
M-16 is more accurate, but has less killing power than M1-Garands and Thompsons which fired a much larger round. Its basically trading stopping power for armor penetration and accuracy. Which is beneficial when you are fighting at range and/or facing opponents with body armor(not necessarily common) At the range most firefights occur, accuracy over distance isn't as big a concern.
We're still using the M2 .50cal, literally unchanged since it was first introduced.
If anything the finer tolerances of some of the more modern weapons are actually a little poorer because you have to keep them cleaner.
Although, the M-16 is actually incredibly lethal if it scores a chest cavity shot. 5.56 is designed to ping around the chest cavity of some unlucky sod on the receiving end like a ping pong ball, tearing up organs as it exits from a completely different angle.
Otherwise though, probably wouldn't change much. The only thing I can think of that would be a major boon for whoever got it is scopes and grenade launchers especially. Rifles themselves don't do much in any war and are largely used just for suppression. IIRC something like 99% of all small arms fails to even hit the enemy. The main casualty producers are artillery, mortars, grenades, cannons, bombs, etc. Pretty much anything that produces shrapnel upon impact.
Yup. IIRC someone did a calculation of approximate combat casualties vs the approximate number of bullets fired in WW2 and it was many thousands of rounds per casualty inflicted. And that was just total casualties caused in combat. They didn't take away casualties potentially caused by artillery or bombs so the figure would actually be higher.
I think the casualties to bullets fired ratio was actually smaller when people stood in lines and fired smoothbore's at each other
Grey Templar wrote: Yup. IIRC someone did a calculation of approximate combat casualties vs the approximate number of bullets fired in WW2 and it was many thousands of rounds per casualty inflicted. And that was just total casualties caused in combat. They didn't take away casualties potentially caused by artillery or bombs so the figure would actually be higher.
I think the casualties to bullets fired ratio was actually smaller when people stood in lines and fired smoothbore's at each other
Actually those were drastically lower. While muskets were a lot nastier then modern day bullets (save up to the fifty range), they were horrendously inaccurate, and bayonet charges actually reduced casualties. It was around the time of the American Civil War where people stopped charging into melee and just kept shooting that the death toll skyrocketed.
Bayonet charges weren't really about casualties anyway though. They were push tactics to finish a demoralized enemy.
Going back to it, this has morphed back into modern 40k when the original question was about archeotech.
To answer that, no, it was human produced and far ahead of all but Eldar and Necron (and really, other than psyker attunment, it probably slightly surpassed the Eldar).
Even now, the Imperium is capable of fielding technology beyond the other races, other than Necron and Eldar. They have modified their technology to produce huge quantities of munitions and have automated the process to the point where wars can be fought inside factories with munitions being used straight off the line. The system was established to produce huge quantity of battle ready and effective soldiers quickly.
Unfortunately some people see the clean design of the model line and equate that to higher tech.
Grey Templar wrote: Yup. IIRC someone did a calculation of approximate combat casualties vs the approximate number of bullets fired in WW2 and it was many thousands of rounds per casualty inflicted. And that was just total casualties caused in combat. They didn't take away casualties potentially caused by artillery or bombs so the figure would actually be higher.
I think the casualties to bullets fired ratio was actually smaller when people stood in lines and fired smoothbore's at each other
Actually those were drastically lower. While muskets were a lot nastier then modern day bullets (save up to the fifty range), they were horrendously inaccurate, and bayonet charges actually reduced casualties. It was around the time of the American Civil War where people stopped charging into melee and just kept shooting that the death toll skyrocketed.
Bayonet charges were about breaking the enemy, not killing them. But once you broke them, you entered the pursuit phase of the battle and proceeded to cut down the enemy. Those who ran slowly were killed, those who ran fast lived a few days and then either starved or were killed while trying to steal some food.
In the early 19th centry and before, melee was not about causing causualties but breaking the enemy. Once you broke them you had what you wanted, but you could also elect to kill them. Around the time of the napoleonic+crimean wars charging into melee became a high risk action, but it also came with a high reward, as once you broke the enemy you could virtually annihilate them.
Taking a look at WWI, casualties in battle were up, but no one could ever get to the pursuit phase. Battles overall were less deadly. That the battle basically lasted for months on end, as part of a constant war that lasted 4 years, with the largest armies ever concieved, made the overall war much more deadly.
PhillyT wrote: Bayonet charges weren't really about casualties anyway though. They were push tactics to finish a demoralized enemy.
Going back to it, this has morphed back into modern 40k when the original question was about archeotech.
To answer that, no, it was human produced and far ahead of all but Eldar and Necron (and really, other than psyker attunment, it probably slightly surpassed the Eldar).
Even now, the Imperium is capable of fielding technology beyond the other races, other than Necron and Eldar. They have modified their technology to produce huge quantities of munitions and have automated the process to the point where wars can be fought inside factories with munitions being used straight off the line. The system was established to produce huge quantity of battle ready and effective soldiers quickly.
Unfortunately some people see the clean design of the model line and equate that to higher tech.
Is there anyone (other than nortall) who is arguing that?
It should also be noted that, with both the American Civil War and WW1, weapons technology had surpassed military tactics of the day. In the case of the ACW, Napoleonic tactics were the rule of the day, designed for blocks of infantry using smooth-bore muskets... but the M1861 Springfield (and all of its contemporaries) were rifled, providing accuracy out to hundreds of yards.
Again, in WW1, we saw the first mass deployment of machine guns and man-portable explosives. While the ACW of fifty-some years prior had the Gatling gun, that was not developed until very late in the war, and had a very limited ammunition supply... not a belt or magazine-fed weapon like we would see in WW1 that could cut down blocks of infantry (or mounted cavalry) like wheat before a scythe. The tactics of war were forced to change, and a whole fethload of people died in that process.
The problem with the Imperium and archotech is that due to the age of strife people became so fearful of the awesome power of their own technology that if suddenly the admech decided to start producing it again half the Imperium would either rebel and/or slaughter any admech they could find, seethe iron men. Hence why when emps came back there was massive advancements, partially due to retrieved archotech, but also because under the emps direct influence the admech was able to re enlighten itself. On some worlds its not a problem such as the ones that aren't mentioned in most fluff or really represented in game because its not grimdarky enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would also like to point out that during the American civil war there was also breach loading rifles and msrtini action weapons like the henry repeater, all bought at the soldiers expense but they massacred whole regiments
It's entertaining how people will dissemble tiny things, even though it was obviously just an example.
Still none the wiser.
Oh, I see the problem here. I was't talking at you, I was talking to the guys above you who were dissecting my quote:
Co'tor Shas wrote: It's a bit like if we had today's technology, but still gave our soldiers guns from WWI or II because it's all we can afford. It's a bit like that with the imperium now too, they are definitely high tech, but you wouldn't see it most of the time.
Standardized chassis for easy replacement
good armament with standard sized rounds that are simple to make?
decent firepower for what it is
Realizing it was made to combat orks which doesn't give that much time for prep and can spout out anywhere.
seems like a great idea for accessibility rather than having to overhall EVERy manucatorium to build a brand new hover chassis for some sort of benefit..
The only thing wrong with a predator is that it's mediocre. It's armament isn't great, it isn't truly amphibious, it gets held up by terrain... you can't throw it out of an aerial transport and trust it'll be just fine when it gets to the ground. Compared to its counterpart in the Tau Empire, Eldar Craftworlds, or Necron armies, it's just not that good... and it's what humanity came up with during its highest period of development.
Standardized chassis for easy replacement
good armament with standard sized rounds that are simple to make?
decent firepower for what it is
Realizing it was made to combat orks which doesn't give that much time for prep and can spout out anywhere.
seems like a great idea for accessibility rather than having to overhall EVERy manucatorium to build a brand new hover chassis for some sort of benefit..
We also don't know it's original purpose. It could have been a light scout tank for all we know.
Actually, we do. The Predator was a tank built from a rhino chassis to fight the orks when humanity first encountered them. Given that humanity needed tank to fight the orks, and didn't have something better in place, it was probably humanity's MBT during that timeframe.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau median is about at the level of a fire warrior, all tau have the high-tech stuff, because it is not high-tech to them.
Citation needed. What's the percentage of Fire Warriors to, say, Earth Caste?
A lot more earth caste, as the earth caste to all the production and design/
Then the FW is not the median, and is thus not eligible for use as a point of comparison to the median.
I'm not sure that's a smart thing to say, since the median human in the Imperium is probably at the same tech level as Earth right now. There's a crap ton of worlds in the Imperium in the stone, bronze, and iron ages. (Fenris comes readily to mind)
In the Tau Empire, everyone has access to drones. Every soldier has access to pulse rifles. Every one of all castes have access to computers. In the Imperium, sections of the population (large enough to get mention in the core rulebook) lack access to electricity.
The Tau Empire is archeotech now?
Fine, let the mechanicum dig the remnants of this Empire ( which was either overrun by orks or nids, wholly enslaved by evil space elfs, dragged into the warp, cleansed off by Crons or just suffered a Mon'Tau ) out so we get to look at another failure that wanted to compete with the Realms of the god-Emporer. Am ok with that.
So maybe if I show some patience and wait for another month, someone is going to define " best" and "archeotech" ? Maybe?
I hate to break this to you, but the conversation got sidetracked. I'm started at the latest pages and working backwards.
At any rate, the Tau will survive the Imperium. The Imperium is beset on all fronts by enemies. Abaddon has sacked Cadia, and is preparing to rip open the Eye of Terror much, MUCH wider than it is now. When it does, the daemons that flood through are heading into the Imperium. The Tau will be safely on the other side of the galaxy while the IoM burns from predation by the tyranids, necrons, and Chaos.
I also can't help but notice that your only response to my point- that large expanses of the Imperium are inhabited by people less advanced than IRL- is to change the subject.
So, instead of looking at the Predator, please take a look at the Sicarian. That was the real Battle Tank for the peak of humanity's technological advancement, and it is one hell of a tank.
So, instead of looking at the Predator, please take a look at the Sicarian. That was the real Battle Tank for the peak of humanity's technological advancement, and it is one hell of a tank.
Don't have the book containing its rules, but I still see tracks.
So, instead of looking at the Predator, please take a look at the Sicarian. That was the real Battle Tank for the peak of humanity's technological advancement, and it is one hell of a tank.
Don't have the book containing its rules, but I still see tracks.
And still nothing wrong with tracks. Still the same issue of large amounts of maintenance and rare materials to build which is incredibly impractical. or are we going to ignore that?
Edit: Sicarian is a Relic Tank with 13 all around and a main battle cannon that is a auto cannon that shoots a bit faster (6 shots) also advanced targeting systems that denies jinking. (rending as well)
What is wrong with the tracks? For all the technology the tau have, they aren't capable of armoring their tanks to reach even the basic level of the Leman Russ. There are sacrifices that are made for anything, and when you compare even the best tau tanks to the basic battle tank of the DAOT, the Baneblade, there is no comparison. They were designed for different things. Tau trade armor for versatility. The Imperium seeks durability.
PhillyT wrote: Also, a predator has greater armament than a hammer head.
...
Default mode comes with an autocannon. Upgraded, you get a lascannon- a weapon distinctly inferior to the rail gun in terms of armor piercing and range.
Sure, you can slap a few more lascannons on the sides, but that leaves the Predator with no anti-infantry gun. The Hammerhead still has bust cannons or an SMS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PhillyT wrote: What is wrong with the tracks? For all the technology the tau have, they aren't capable of armoring their tanks to reach even the basic level of the Leman Russ. There are sacrifices that are made for anything, and when you compare even the best tau tanks to the basic battle tank of the DAOT, the Baneblade, there is no comparison. They were designed for different things. Tau trade armor for versatility. The Imperium seeks durability.
We have an STC for the Baneblade, not a history of use. I've not seen many novels written about the DAoT.
Anything else about it, except what we know the IoM has done with it, is speculation... as is pretty much everything else about the DAoT, past a big robot rebellion. We don't know to what extent humanity developed its weapon systems or what aid it had... except we *DO* know what sorts of things it didn't do, like putting night vision gear into its tanks... something the US Army does.
Given that the Hammerhead can be dropped out of a passing aircraft, what armor it does have is impressive. The Eldar don't have skimmers with an AV of 13 on the front... their Hammerhead equivalent is just a 12.
It isn't needed as there is a horde in IG SURROUNDING the tank. Its like others said the Tau and IoM have a different way of fighting, hammerhead needs to have everything because there is only so many. IoM has oodles of specilized gear.
The baneblade was create during the DAOT as the main battle tank. There were entire divisions used in the crusade.
As far as the actual table top applciation of the tanks in question, the predator annihilator is a better and more versitile vehicle than the hammerhead.
Quickjager wrote: It isn't needed as there is a horde in IG SURROUNDING the tank. Its like others said the Tau and IoM have a different way of fighting, hammerhead needs to have everything because there is only so many. IoM has oodles of specilized gear.
Quickjager wrote: It isn't needed as there is a horde in IG SURROUNDING the tank. Its like others said the Tau and IoM have a different way of fighting, hammerhead needs to have everything because there is only so many. IoM has oodles of specilized gear.
... but not so specialized as to see in the dark.
No they got those too it's just tt sucks at representing fluff.
Yeah, there is only so far you can go when trying to make sense of table top rules. Night fighting wouldn't be a thing if night vision was realistically portrayed.
PhillyT wrote: The baneblade was create during the DAOT as the main battle tank. There were entire divisions used in the crusade.
As far as the actual table top applciation of the tanks in question, the predator annihilator is a better and more versitile vehicle than the hammerhead.
All things being equal, I'm pretty sure than on an Apoc-sized map, a number of Hammerheads will wipe the floor with an equal points-value of Predators. The Predators have to close in range, which should give the Tau two rounds of firing (1 at worst) before the Predators can shoot back.
With submunitions, the Tau are better able to beat hordes. The Tau have an alternate armament for the HH that is better than what the SM get for killing Space marines. The railgun beats the lascannon hands down against armor.
Heck, even against fliers, the Hammerheads will fair better by virtue of having an extra shot over the Predator (due to range).
You have to be smoking crack to think the Predator is good at anything (compared to a HH or Falcon) except as a cheap AV 13 vehicle.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PhillyT wrote: Yeah, there is only so far you can go when trying to make sense of table top rules. Night fighting wouldn't be a thing if night vision was realistically portrayed.
It is for the Tau. Almost everything in our Codex can get it. Kroot, vespid, and drones don't get it. Everything else comes with it default or can be purchased.
Why do Tau get night-fighting gear when other factions can't? Eldar almost always pick their own battles and don't need it. D Eldar see in the dark.. and humans are too backward technologically to build them. That';s why they use search lights on tanks.
Wait, I must have missed the part where Norton's entire point was based on the erroneous assumption that the Predator was the best tank the DAoT could churn out.
lol. The Predator is and has always been stated to be a light tank at best, and yes, it used to be more like the modern Razorback.
It's a modified colony rover, for pete's sake... and, I might add, the Rhino has a hover version, and had to be retrofitted for mass deployment by the Guild Mechanicus to use tracks instead.
PhillyT wrote: Predators were not the peak of human tech in their greatest period. It is easily sustained in numbers and repaired.
Not easily sustained or repaired enough, since they're only given to Space Marines. The Imperium can't field them as widely as the Tau field Hammerheads by a longshot.
PhillyT wrote: What is wrong with the tracks? For all the technology the tau have, they aren't capable of armoring their tanks to reach even the basic level of the Leman Russ. There are sacrifices that are made for anything, and when you compare even the best tau tanks to the basic battle tank of the DAOT, the Baneblade, there is no comparison. They were designed for different things. Tau trade armor for versatility. The Imperium seeks durability.
Tracks are fine, just that the Imperium has a strange habit of leaving them exposed or worse yet, give them no suspension.
At 140 points on standard tables, predators are the superior anti-vehicle platform. It is pretty basic math.
If the Hammerhead is deployed to avoid laser fire, which it should be, it is also well out of range to do anything but shoot that one gun every turn. And I think any of us who have ever had a tua army can tell you that the hammer head is a the most frustrating thing in the list (I had three and was constantly disappointed - one chance to do anything isn't enough at the point cost though they are cheaper than ever now).
At standard "long" ranges, the multiple chances are a real blessing.
Besides, without having this turn too far towards table top discussion, if marines need to kill something further away, you deal with those tough vehicles with drop pod melta. Works everytime.
Furyou Miko wrote: Wait, I must have missed the part where Norton's entire point was based on the erroneous assumption that the Predator was the best tank the DAoT could churn out.
If you go back to the beginning, my point was that humanity's tanks (it doesn't matter what you consider the best human tank, since I'm pretty sure it holds true all the way around) lack technology we have in real life.
At any rate, we're side-tracked. I let the damned Imps determine the path of the conversation, and now we're arguing over things that are meaningless. Here's the phrasing from the first post.
"A Baneblade may be very capable, but it isn't very technologically advanced. It has a searchlight, not night vision gear. It has a really big gun, not one that fires with particularly nasty projectile velocity (like a railgun) or with a particular adeptness at bypassing armor (gauss or lances) "
Every counter-argument made in this thread is, "Humanity *has* this, so they're better" when there's no reason to believe humanity actually developed it. No counter-argument explains why humans put searchlights on tanks, or took 10,000 years to put metal plates over the cabling of SM power armor, or why they failed for 6,000 years to put a radar and some anti-aircraft missiles on a Rhino. If fluff didn't discuss about how humanity *tried* to put a radar and some missiles on a Rhino chassis, and couldn't for 6,00 years, and only managed to make an anti-aircraft Rhino variants when they found an STC, I'd have no argument. There would be no thread.
... but no one has an explanation as to why these things are impossible for humanity. In a shorter time than humanity in 40k has existed, RL humans have gone from beginning to work with iron to having missiles on a Bradley and night vision gear in an Abrams... and in 10,000 years, the advanced Imperium of Man can't duplicate either feat.
Except that they would have it. It is a case where you are confusing the rules the game designers add to make a race distinct with what would be real and reasonable. You can't really be saying that a space marine's helmet wouldn't give him night vision are you? We have that. We know that the technology is far ahead of where we are now. Same with eldar and necrons. You really think they wouldn't have ways to use basic night vision?
Don't expect simple technological things to be reflected.
EmpNortonII wrote: It Currently has a searchlight, not night vision gear. It has a really big gun, not one that fires with particularly nasty projectile velocity (like a railgun) or with a particular adeptness at bypassing armor (gauss or lances) "
FTFY considering there is no possible way of knowing what they stripped off the thing after the whole AI revolt.
There are Also Variants that can Turn large areas into slag using Frickin Lasers, (Volcano cannons)
No one is going to be able to despute or prove anything as there is nothing written of what changed.
EmpNortonII wrote: It Currently has a searchlight, not night vision gear. It has a really big gun, not one that fires with particularly nasty projectile velocity (like a railgun) or with a particular adeptness at bypassing armor (gauss or lances) "
FTFY considering there is no possible way of knowing what they stripped off the thing after the whole AI revolt.
There are Also Variants that can Turn large areas into slag using Frickin Lasers, (Volcano cannons)
No one is going to be able to despute or prove anything as there is nothing written of what changed.
Why would it be stripped off? I'm pretty sure I can buy some goggles online that don't contain a self-aware computer... especially since all modern technology exists prior to self-aware computers.
PhillyT wrote: What is wrong with the tracks? For all the technology the tau have, they aren't capable of armoring their tanks to reach even the basic level of the Leman Russ. There are sacrifices that are made for anything, and when you compare even the best tau tanks to the basic battle tank of the DAOT, the Baneblade, there is no comparison. They were designed for different things. Tau trade armor for versatility. The Imperium seeks durability.
Tau tanks have stealth systems. They're plenty durable as a result.
They also fly.
The Tau have the capability to armour a tank to AV14 if they wanted to. They prefer their tanks fly.
It probably had to do with irrational fears. whole systems probably had to be striped of fully autonomous targeting systems that had integrated night vision. chances are like how we have lost the recepies to greek fire and roman cement, they probably forgot how to make non ai assisted night vision.
As well its highly likely there was some major science censorship by the big government in an attempt to prevent another revolt.
Then to throw another spaner into it, the whole pysker thing happened and anarchy and things during the age of strife (IIRC)
Or are you execting there to be a space wikipedia that has all the information for nightvision goggles from the vietnam war.
Edit: again enough with the Tau Ego stroking. it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
in fact the subject is un answerable as there is nothing written about it.
But that was the point. The Men of Iron revolt was so catastrophic BECAUSE all machines had a A.I in it.
Actually the title answers itself. Archeotech is lost technology, the only faction who has really lost technology is the humans... so it goes the best archeotech is from humans.
We know the Imperium is capable of creating hover tanks or has in the past.
I think it's a safe bet to say the Tau are capable of slapping plasteel together in a formation that would rival Imperial patterns.
They don't do it because their philosophy of war is not one of attrition. They don't require durability on that level either, because their tanks can mask their presence and fly.
And humanity has created hovertanks in the past, yes, but that's largely irrelevent. The Tau *obviously* have the technology to create heavily armoured vehicles. The fact that they don't have nothing to do with their capabilities, but rather their thinking.
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PhillyT wrote: I mentioned on the other thread, night vision is standard and pervasive in the IoM. It is all through the fluff.
Leman Russ are listed as having a passive NV suite more than once in the actual technical fluff.
But that is just it, more than once people assume because something doesn't happen it can't. Why should the tau be given the benefit of the doubt when the IoM isn't?
PhillyT wrote: But that is just it, more than once people assume because something doesn't happen it can't. Why should the tau be given the benefit of the doubt when the IoM isn't?
The Tau don't operate their technology out of superstition, they are technologically progressive. The Imperium of Man doesn't understand the technologies it uses on a scientific basis, and cannot improve upon them save for discovery of archeotech or combinations of existing technologies.
The Tau understand anti-grav technology, and so can build hover-tanks. The Mechanicus has largely lost the know-how to do the same, and doesn't understand anti-grav technology's scientific principles at any rate.
That isn't actually true. The Ad Mech understand much more than they allow to be produced. Don't confuse the overall grimdark settling with reality.
The ad mech knows how much of their tech works. In many cases they do not allow for things to be used or progress to be made because it is reactionary. Also, there needs to be proven a need for something new.
PhillyT wrote: That isn't actually true. The Ad Mech understand much more than they allow to be produced. Don't confuse the overall grimdark settling with reality.
The ad mech knows how much of their tech works. In many cases they do not allow for things to be used or progress to be made because it is reactionary. Also, there needs to be proven a need for something new.
Innovation on any grand scale is heresy to the Mechanicus, and there are many many technologies that they can reproduce that they understand poorly or barely at all.
If that wasn't true, they would just develop their own technologies instead of searching like crack addicts for archeotech throughout the stars. You know, like the Tau have.
PhillyT wrote: But that is just it, more than once people assume because something doesn't happen it can't. Why should the tau be given the benefit of the doubt when the IoM isn't?
The Tau don't operate their technology out of superstition, they are technologically progressive. The Imperium of Man doesn't understand the technologies it uses on a scientific basis, and cannot improve upon them save for discovery of archeotech or combinations of existing technologies.
The Tau understand anti-grav technology, and so can build hover-tanks. The Mechanicus has largely lost the know-how to do the same, and doesn't understand anti-grav technology's scientific principles at any rate.
And how does this really have anything to do with the topic at hand.
Its shown that the IOM had and made Grav tech, Super high powered lasers that can slag anything at a range further than a hammer head, All sorts of crazy medical and stasis tech. then everything changed when gak got real with psykers and AI
Whats to say Tau wont have the same issues when there AI goes buggy.
PhillyT wrote: What is wrong with the tracks? For all the technology the tau have, they aren't capable of armoring their tanks to reach even the basic level of the Leman Russ. There are sacrifices that are made for anything, and when you compare even the best tau tanks to the basic battle tank of the DAOT, the Baneblade, there is no comparison. They were designed for different things. Tau trade armor for versatility. The Imperium seeks durability.
Tracks are fine, just that the Imperium has a strange habit of leaving them exposed or worse yet, give them no suspension.
To be fair, that's more to do with GW not knowing how tanks work than the IoM
Look everyone the question was answered so I propse we start a new thread called "Tau vs. IoM; who has the better tech?" This way everything is contained. Oh and add a poll.
Desubot wrote: And how does this really have anything to do with the topic at hand.
Its shown that the IOM had and made Grav tech, Super high powered lasers that can slag anything at a range further than a hammer head, All sorts of crazy medical and stasis tech. then everything changed when gak got real with psykers and AI
Whats to say Tau wont have the same issues when there AI goes buggy.
I have little doubt the Tau may have problems with AI on some level. Who knows, maybe they'd just shrug, consider AIs to be persons under the Greater Good and carry on. Or the possibility I consider coolest, a sort of Cylon War after a huge expansion of the Empire. But that's not in the setting of 999.M41 or before.
The pinnacle of Imperial technology is in the past, whereas the Tau's most probably lies in the future and they outstrip the *current* level of Imperial understanding of the material universe by some degree. Though that's only because of the Mechanicus' reliance on archeotech, their own superstition and bans on unholy innovation.
PhillyT, if unauthorised innovation can get you branded a heretek, "allowing new designs" tends to mean reworking existing technologies more than actually making something new. If the Mechanicus understood as much as you imply, the Imperium would not have regressed technologically. The reason for this is the one you yourself give: Why bother understanding the actual science behind technologies when you can get them handed to you on a plate via archeotech?
They understand it though. They just don't see the point in trying to innovate when they assume, and rightly so, that the best they can achieve has already happened and they just need to find it again.
The grimdark fluff claims that they struggle to repair or understand some stuff, but that is as much to set the tone as anything else. It doesn't actually make sense and you should generally pause when that occurs. The FW books have a a tendency to be more "realistic" with the fluff. They take a more practical and less fanciful approach.
As far as the Tau having a future, I doubt it. If the overall fluff is to be believed, within 1000 years everything will be obliterated. Things are supposed to come to a head within a couple hundred years.
Desubot wrote: Honestly see a lot more Necrons and Nids in the Taus future
I see plenty of both in everyone's future. Though the Nids might be more inclined to bypass the Tau considering they're nomming towards the Astronomican in the first place. Though that's assuming most of the new hive fleets will emerge from under or above the galactic plane like the latest ones did.
Co'tor Shas wrote: You mis-understand tau. There is no buying things, you are given it. You are given high-tech stuff that is for your job. The earth caste )which are the workers) use things like drones to help with their jobs.
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PhillyT wrote: So you are arguing that the median technology for the tau is equal to their specific warrior caste?
Okay. Who is the Imperiums warrior caste?
No, I am arguing that all castes have the same level of tech. For tau, civilian tech is just as important as military tech.
This is conjecture. No where does it discuss how to the Tau do business. If they did not believe in a free market, than they would abolish it on the human worlds they conquered.
Co'tor Shas wrote: You mis-understand tau. There is no buying things, you are given it. You are given high-tech stuff that is for your job. The earth caste )which are the workers) use things like drones to help with their jobs.
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PhillyT wrote: So you are arguing that the median technology for the tau is equal to their specific warrior caste?
Okay. Who is the Imperiums warrior caste?
No, I am arguing that all castes have the same level of tech. For tau, civilian tech is just as important as military tech.
This is conjecture. No where does it discuss how to the Tau do business. If they did not believe in a free market, than they would abolish it on the human worlds they conquered.
Well... we do know that drone use is incredibly widespread. We also know the Tau are generally content to let many of their allies (I'm looking at you, Kroot) keep their way of life, so long as they follow the Tau's lead.
Desubot wrote: Honestly see a lot more Necrons and Nids in the Taus future
I see plenty of both in everyone's future. Though the Nids might be more inclined to bypass the Tau considering they're nomming towards the Astronomican in the first place. Though that's assuming most of the new hive fleets will emerge from under or above the galactic plane like the latest ones did.
lolcrons are going to be a bitch though.
... they're also mostly focused in the opposite end of the galaxy from the Tau.
Crons will eventually be a problem, and there are splinter fleets that occasionally shot up, but it's mostly the IoM that is set against the Tau Empire, and the IoM is mostly losing that war.
Pretty much all indicators point to the Nids coming from somewhere to the galactic east. So the Tau Empire lies directly between the Hive Mind and Terra. Not good.
Of course, there is hope in that they could bypass the galactic plane like Leviathan did and attack the interior of the Imperium as opposed to bothering their arses ploughing through thousands if not millions of defended star systems.
Also, many of the major Necron dynasties are in Ultima Segmentum, i.e. the opposite area to where the Eldar Empire's core was, i.e. the Eye of Terror. Ultima is a big place to say the least, but it's fairly certain that the Tau will transgress on former lolcron territories as they have in the past.
As for Tau and economics, it's mentioned many times that the Water caste include merchants. There is some sort of market economy in the Tau Empire, and they use that as a weapon in itself to draw in backwater Imperial worlds with promises of greater prosperity.
However, it's also clear that the Tau do not value individual wealth. Their philosophy places no value on wealth and emphasizes the whole over the individual. On top of that, their technology allows them to live without much of the drudgery that either we in reality or our would-be descendants in 40k have to deal with.
Think Scandinavian social democracy with technology that essentially elevates the working class into non-existence.
Co'tor Shas wrote: You mis-understand tau. There is no buying things, you are given it. You are given high-tech stuff that is for your job. The earth caste )which are the workers) use things like drones to help with their jobs.
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PhillyT wrote: So you are arguing that the median technology for the tau is equal to their specific warrior caste?
Okay. Who is the Imperiums warrior caste?
No, I am arguing that all castes have the same level of tech. For tau, civilian tech is just as important as military tech.
This is conjecture. No where does it discuss how to the Tau do business. If they did not believe in a free market, than they would abolish it on the human worlds they conquered.
When did I say they didn't?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've alwas imagined it where individual septs (or even worlds) are free to trade with eachother.
I'd like to point out that a lot of modern night vision equipment uses searchlights. you know, infra red?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I would like to point out we have gotten a litte of topic and seem to have instead started arguing over who has the best tech, tau or iom.
Back to the op question. yes it is reasonable to believe that the archotech of iom is of human design or at the most influenced by xenos tech. The majority of the daot was of human origin as they didn't have the old ones to direct them like the eldar did or the tau did. similar to the way orks are.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and by tau I mean the eldar guided them, not the old ones before you try to eviscerate me and strangle me with my own intestinal tract.
PhillyT wrote: Careful, the resident Tau lovers like to ignore the whole Alien interventionism when talking about how wonderful their army is!
What is that?
Whatever race planted the Ethereals after modifying them. As in, the Tua aren't really even responsible for their own unification and technological know how. They owe most of it to other alien races.
PhillyT wrote: Careful, the resident Tau lovers like to ignore the whole Alien interventionism when talking about how wonderful their army is!
What is that?
Whatever race planted the Ethereals after modifying them. As in, the Tua aren't really even responsible for their own unification and technological know how. They owe most of it to other alien races.
Only if it is true. It is still not proven in the fluff, it is just a theory. They are however responsible for their tech. They have invented almost all of their own tech (warp drives is the only example I can think of off the top of my head), it's not like they just got given it. I'll give you unification though, that's all the etherials (who may or may not be put by the eldar or others)
PhillyT wrote: Whatever race planted the Ethereals after modifying them. As in, the Tua aren't really even responsible for their own unification and technological know how. They owe most of it to other alien races.
There's no evidence to suggest that most Tau tech is from elsewhere. The only canon reference to them acquiring technologies from other races that they use themselves is their acquisition of Ion Cannon technology from the Demuirg and warp engines, and they understand Ion Cannons now to the point of making the weapons of Riptides possible anyway. They certainly don't use most Imperial weapons, which they regard as crude or inferior, or both.
It's funny how you keep going on about tau fans, when you seem determined to rip tau down. Not everybody is like nortall. I will readily admit that the imperium has plenty of stuff more advanced than tau, but you seem to be arguing that the tau are not technologically advanced because they have a weirf history. By that same logic I could argue that anything invented by a STC does not show technological progress, because humans did not personally design them. Now can we stop this extremely OT discussion and:
a. get back to the topic at hand
b. If you want to keep talking about it, make a new topic.
IRT the OP, as STC has been described as the pinnacle of human knowledge and innovation during what is now called the Dark Age of Technology, I would have to ask if there is a reason to believe that it *isn't* human technology?
Psienesis wrote: IRT the OP, as STC has been described as the pinnacle of human knowledge and innovation during what is now called the Dark Age of Technology, I would have to ask if there is a reason to believe that it *isn't* human technology?
I doubt the STC builders shared the Mechanicus view on alien technology. They probably developed their technology themselves as well as taking the scientific implications of xenotech in order to create shortcuts or adapt new principles.
That doesn't mean archeotech is "alien" though, it just means they understood the science and encorporated it into their own. Much like another race I could mention.
Psienesis wrote: IRT the OP, as STC has been described as the pinnacle of human knowledge and innovation during what is now called the Dark Age of Technology, I would have to ask if there is a reason to believe that it *isn't* human technology?
I doubt the STC builders shared the Mechanicus view on alien technology. They probably developed their technology themselves as well as taking the scientific implications of xenotech in order to create shortcuts or adapt new principles.
That doesn't mean archeotech is "alien" though, it just means they understood the science and encorporated it into their own. Much like another race I could mention.
Then given that the examples of archaeotech provided in the fluff far outstrips anything that any faction, other than the Necrons (in totality) and the Eldar (selectively), have displayed, we can then conclude that, at its height, human technology surpassed that which the Tau currently possess and, given what has been revealed of STC in general, should the Imperium acquire a complete one, they would outstrip the Tau entirely. It is not hard to imagine that, with such levels of technology available, such an event would spell the doom of a number of factions, not least of which being the Tau.
Psienesis wrote: Then given that the examples of archaeotech provided in the fluff far outstrips anything that any faction, other than the Necrons (in totality) and the Eldar (selectively), have displayed, we can then conclude that, at its height, human technology surpassed that which the Tau currently possess and, given what has been revealed of STC in general, should the Imperium acquire a complete one, they would outstrip the Tau entirely. It is not hard to imagine that, with such levels of technology available, such an event would spell the doom of a number of factions, not least of which being the Tau.
Oh, there's no doubt about that at all. Humanity reached dizzy heights of know-how during the STC era to say the least. If they ever found a complete STC, the Imperium would sweep all aside.
As of 999.M41, they have yet to find such a system intact however, and somehow, I don't think any such system exists in the 41st Milennium. Unless the Grand Necron Thieving Bastard has one tucked away in his collection or something.
Considering the Panacea War was basically fought over the results of one, and that Commissar Gaunt found one (albeit this one was Corrupted), there is a better-than-zero chance that one exists. Somewhere.
In fact, wouldn't it be a twist if the reason the Tau are as advanced as they are is because they found a semi-functional STC on their homeworld?
A fully working STC computer with the entire ancient database intact is almost certainly not something that would be found, barring any Necron dickery. STC machines with singular designs on their memory banks are far more common, and some are in fact still in human hands, though not all of those still function.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Tau found an STC cache at some point. In fact, I've been thinking of writing some aul fiction on that very subject. Because I'm a nerd.
However, I think it's more likely that the cultural shock of having aliens visit you, shorter lifespans and the arrival/emergence of the Ethereals (who know more than they let on) that has pushed Tau technological development ultimately.
Psienesis wrote: IRT the OP, as STC has been described as the pinnacle of human knowledge and innovation during what is now called the Dark Age of Technology, I would have to ask if there is a reason to believe that it *isn't* human technology?
I doubt the STC builders shared the Mechanicus view on alien technology. They probably developed their technology themselves as well as taking the scientific implications of xenotech in order to create shortcuts or adapt new principles.
That doesn't mean archeotech is "alien" though, it just means they understood the science and encorporated it into their own. Much like another race I could mention.
Then given that the examples of archaeotech provided in the fluff far outstrips anything that any faction, other than the Necrons (in totality) and the Eldar (selectively), have displayed, we can then conclude that, at its height, human technology surpassed that which the Tau currently possess and, given what has been revealed of STC in general, should the Imperium acquire a complete one, they would outstrip the Tau entirely. It is not hard to imagine that, with such levels of technology available, such an event would spell the doom of a number of factions, not least of which being the Tau.
Again- I'm not sure there's anything that says, for certain, that the high-points of "archaeotech" are, in fact, man-made.
Isn't it just as likely that the original STCs were made by the Old Ones, and that humanity's original leap forward came simply from figuring them out?
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GreaterGoodIreland wrote: A fully working STC computer with the entire ancient database intact is almost certainly not something that would be found, barring any Necron dickery. STC machines with singular designs on their memory banks are far more common, and some are in fact still in human hands, though not all of those still function.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Tau found an STC cache at some point. In fact, I've been thinking of writing some aul fiction on that very subject. Because I'm a nerd.
However, I think it's more likely that the cultural shock of having aliens visit you, shorter lifespans and the arrival/emergence of the Ethereals (who know more than they let on) that has pushed Tau technological development ultimately.
I dunno. Finding a tomb world full of (data-(corrupted) or "dead" Necrons might make for a more interesting tale.
It'd also be a book that had nothing to do with the Emperor-damned Imperium.
Again- I'm not sure there's anything that says, for certain, that the high-points of "archaeotech" are, in fact, man-made.
Isn't it just as likely that the original STCs were made by the Old Ones, and that humanity's original leap forward came simply from figuring them out?
If I recall correctly STC's are explicitly stated to contain human knowledge and technology and to have been developed during the Dark Age of Technology. So they could not have been developed by the Old Ones. It would also ruin the concept of humanity having fallen so low. If their technology was much the same as it is now then you don't have the same sense of decay.
I'd find it more likely that Tau technology is based off of Eldar technology than human technology is from xenos. Both Tau and Eldar focus on mobility and firepower. They like to mislead the enemy with technology so they miss rather than use additional armour. They use anti-grav systems extensively They prefer not to fight unnecessary battles. The main difference is that the Tau focus exclusively on ranged power as they are inept in close combat.
Though I doubt the Tau really did get their technology from Eldar.
Again- I'm not sure there's anything that says, for certain, that the high-points of "archaeotech" are, in fact, man-made.
Isn't it just as likely that the original STCs were made by the Old Ones, and that humanity's original leap forward came simply from figuring them out?
If I recall correctly STC's are explicitly stated to contain human knowledge and technology and to have been developed during the Dark Age of Technology. So they could not have been developed by the Old Ones. It would also ruin the concept of humanity having fallen so low. If their technology was much the same as it is now then you don't have the same sense of decay.
... but wouldn't it make sense that all human vehicles lack night vision tech because the race that actually built them didn't need it? That'd explain why they have to strap on searchlights.
Grey Templar wrote: Well its canon that Tau have poor eyesight relative to humans. being herbivore and not carnivore descendents.
Tau take longer to focus on distant objects, that's essentially the only disadvantage there. Their eyesight on average is good with respect to visual fidelity.
Also, the Tau eat meat and have since their pre-technological days. The entire Fire Caste are the descendants of hunters.
Note that humans are also descended from herbivores, our precursor species started scavenging meat at some point and we became omnivores. I would imagine the same thing was the case with the Tau.
Although what that has to do with their eyesight or the resulting motivation to have better visual equipment, I haven't the slightest clue.
Tau actually have a greater sight range than us, seeming slightly into the infa-red and ultra-violet spectrums. Not really all that usesful, but pretty cool none-the-less.
And the herbivores is an annoying thing people have picked up on, solely because tau have hooves, or at least appear to. I'd say they evolved from a species on the grasslands, more suited to running, not climbing like us.
We just had the discussion about how human tech is stocked full of night vision gear, so that angle of attack can be dropped completely.
Also, there's a lot of poor information being thrown aroudn here.
There's only one thing called an STC. An STC is a box that makes things. What it can make is determied by an STC wafer - the data disks that have individual recipes on them.
When they were deployed, all STC devices had a full set of STC wafers.
STC wafers are highly fragile, and most of them have broken down or been damaged to the point of unusability. Most STC wafers that are found in tact are found separated from their STC machine.
I think that this is part of the conclusive evidence that humans built the STC wafers.
The Old Ones and the Necrons would have thought to use solid storage on a massive internal hard drive and indexed it properly to allow the thing to search properly.
It takes a special kind of stupid - a human kind of stupid - to put each design on an individual disk that has to be put into the machine to make it work.
Again- I'm not sure there's anything that says, for certain, that the high-points of "archaeotech" are, in fact, man-made.
Isn't it just as likely that the original STCs were made by the Old Ones, and that humanity's original leap forward came simply from figuring them out?
If I recall correctly STC's are explicitly stated to contain human knowledge and technology and to have been developed during the Dark Age of Technology. So they could not have been developed by the Old Ones. It would also ruin the concept of humanity having fallen so low. If their technology was much the same as it is now then you don't have the same sense of decay.
... but wouldn't it make sense that all human vehicles lack night vision tech because the race that actually built them didn't need it? That'd explain why they have to strap on searchlights.
one thing to keep in mind is the way the STC system worked is it was used on a planet and would spit out plans for something upon request that would be adapted to work in the local enviroment. thus a lot if not msot STC designs likely aren't made with the best technology, but for the nesscary requirements of the local enviroment. The Rhino for example, likely was something intended to be easy to build. and the type of thing a struggling colony with a poor tech base could build in it's garage as needed. and rememebr that stuff is now lost. and the IoM is absicly running around trying to find copies of designs spat out by those things people have written down. Which means the IoM likely isn't manafacturing the best stuff.
Effectivly they're building a Military using plans for a T-38 Talon trainer as their main combat craft. a Brinks armored car as their APC, a sherman Tank as their primary tank, etc.
Again- I'm not sure there's anything that says, for certain, that the high-points of "archaeotech" are, in fact, man-made.
Isn't it just as likely that the original STCs were made by the Old Ones, and that humanity's original leap forward came simply from figuring them out?
If I recall correctly STC's are explicitly stated to contain human knowledge and technology and to have been developed during the Dark Age of Technology. So they could not have been developed by the Old Ones. It would also ruin the concept of humanity having fallen so low. If their technology was much the same as it is now then you don't have the same sense of decay.
... but wouldn't it make sense that all human vehicles lack night vision tech because the race that actually built them didn't need it? That'd explain why they have to strap on searchlights.
one thing to keep in mind is the way the STC system worked is it was used on a planet and would spit out plans for something upon request that would be adapted to work in the local enviroment. thus a lot if not msot STC designs likely aren't made with the best technology, but for the nesscary requirements of the local enviroment. The Rhino for example, likely was something intended to be easy to build. and the type of thing a struggling colony with a poor tech base could build in it's garage as needed. and rememebr that stuff is now lost. and the IoM is absicly running around trying to find copies of designs spat out by those things people have written down. Which means the IoM likely isn't manafacturing the best stuff.
Effectivly they're building a Military using plans for a T-38 Talon trainer as their main combat craft. a Brinks armored car as their APC, a sherman Tank as their primary tank, etc.
Yeah.
For all we know the lasgun could really be a modified futuristic BB gun.
Again- I'm not sure there's anything that says, for certain, that the high-points of "archaeotech" are, in fact, man-made.
Isn't it just as likely that the original STCs were made by the Old Ones, and that humanity's original leap forward came simply from figuring them out?
If I recall correctly STC's are explicitly stated to contain human knowledge and technology and to have been developed during the Dark Age of Technology. So they could not have been developed by the Old Ones. It would also ruin the concept of humanity having fallen so low. If their technology was much the same as it is now then you don't have the same sense of decay.
... but wouldn't it make sense that all human vehicles lack night vision tech because the race that actually built them didn't need it? That'd explain why they have to strap on searchlights.
Did you miss the part where we showed humans have NV equipment as standard in all vehicles?
The Sherman is actually a perfect analog to the Lemun Russ. Its cheap and easy to manufacture in very large quantities. Sure, its not the best tank you could make, but its more than adequate. And any shortcomings in its design are compensated by you having 10 of them for every 1 tank your opponent has.
The Sherman is actually a perfect analog to the Lemun Russ. Its cheap and easy to manufacture in very large quantities. Sure, its not the best tank you could make, but its more than adequate. And any shortcomings in its design are compensated by you having 10 of them for every 1 tank your opponent has.
There's also the fact that you can easily modify the sherman.
Amphibious Sherman? Done
Mine Sweeper Sherman? Done
Flame thrower? Done
Its just such a versatile tank. It's also very fragile; they are known as "Tommy Cookers" for a reason.
It was only fragile when you compared it to the 88s Panthers and Tigers were carrying around. And frankly the 88mm was overkill against everything except some of the later Russian vehicles.
When you compare the Sherman to the Panzer IV and StuGIII-IV its actually a roughly equal comparison.
Psienesis wrote: IRT the OP, as STC has been described as the pinnacle of human knowledge and innovation during what is now called the Dark Age of Technology, I would have to ask if there is a reason to believe that it *isn't* human technology?
I doubt the STC builders shared the Mechanicus view on alien technology. They probably developed their technology themselves as well as taking the scientific implications of xenotech in order to create shortcuts or adapt new principles.
That doesn't mean archeotech is "alien" though, it just means they understood the science and encorporated it into their own. Much like another race I could mention.
Then given that the examples of archaeotech provided in the fluff far outstrips anything that any faction, other than the Necrons (in totality) and the Eldar (selectively), have displayed, we can then conclude that, at its height, human technology surpassed that which the Tau currently possess and, given what has been revealed of STC in general, should the Imperium acquire a complete one, they would outstrip the Tau entirely. It is not hard to imagine that, with such levels of technology available, such an event would spell the doom of a number of factions, not least of which being the Tau.
Again- I'm not sure there's anything that says, for certain, that the high-points of "archaeotech" are, in fact, man-made.
Isn't it just as likely that the original STCs were made by the Old Ones, and that humanity's original leap forward came simply from figuring them out?
For all we know, the Tau could be an illusion created by the Chaos Gods to troll the galaxy. It all fits together; warp storm showing up when the Imperium shows up the first time, no Warp presence (Daemons ignore them because they're on their side already), no Warp Engines because they're only there to troll the rest of the galaxy.
Hey, it doesn't say this ISN'T the case! Prove me wrong!
Psienesis wrote: IRT the OP, as STC has been described as the pinnacle of human knowledge and innovation during what is now called the Dark Age of Technology, I would have to ask if there is a reason to believe that it *isn't* human technology?
I doubt the STC builders shared the Mechanicus view on alien technology. They probably developed their technology themselves as well as taking the scientific implications of xenotech in order to create shortcuts or adapt new principles.
That doesn't mean archeotech is "alien" though, it just means they understood the science and encorporated it into their own. Much like another race I could mention.
Then given that the examples of archaeotech provided in the fluff far outstrips anything that any faction, other than the Necrons (in totality) and the Eldar (selectively), have displayed, we can then conclude that, at its height, human technology surpassed that which the Tau currently possess and, given what has been revealed of STC in general, should the Imperium acquire a complete one, they would outstrip the Tau entirely. It is not hard to imagine that, with such levels of technology available, such an event would spell the doom of a number of factions, not least of which being the Tau.
Again- I'm not sure there's anything that says, for certain, that the high-points of "archaeotech" are, in fact, man-made.
Isn't it just as likely that the original STCs were made by the Old Ones, and that humanity's original leap forward came simply from figuring them out?
For all we know, the Tau could be an illusion created by the Chaos Gods to troll the galaxy. It all fits together; warp storm showing up when the Imperium shows up the first time, no Warp presence (Daemons ignore them because they're on their side already), no Warp Engines because they're only there to troll the rest of the galaxy.
Hey, it doesn't say this ISN'T the case! Prove me wrong!
The burden of proof lies with the one who claims it to be true.
Not sure about that Templar. The Russ is more like the Iosif Stalin tank. It is the toughest thing on the scene with a big gun. It is a slow but massive machine.
Well its not accurate in that regard since Russ's are definitely not civilian vehicles with guns and armor. They're full on military designed vehicles.
Psienesis wrote: IRT the OP, as STC has been described as the pinnacle of human knowledge and innovation during what is now called the Dark Age of Technology, I would have to ask if there is a reason to believe that it *isn't* human technology?
I doubt the STC builders shared the Mechanicus view on alien technology. They probably developed their technology themselves as well as taking the scientific implications of xenotech in order to create shortcuts or adapt new principles.
That doesn't mean archeotech is "alien" though, it just means they understood the science and encorporated it into their own. Much like another race I could mention.
Then given that the examples of archaeotech provided in the fluff far outstrips anything that any faction, other than the Necrons (in totality) and the Eldar (selectively), have displayed, we can then conclude that, at its height, human technology surpassed that which the Tau currently possess and, given what has been revealed of STC in general, should the Imperium acquire a complete one, they would outstrip the Tau entirely. It is not hard to imagine that, with such levels of technology available, such an event would spell the doom of a number of factions, not least of which being the Tau.
Again- I'm not sure there's anything that says, for certain, that the high-points of "archaeotech" are, in fact, man-made.
Isn't it just as likely that the original STCs were made by the Old Ones, and that humanity's original leap forward came simply from figuring them out?
For all we know, the Tau could be an illusion created by the Chaos Gods to troll the galaxy. It all fits together; warp storm showing up when the Imperium shows up the first time, no Warp presence (Daemons ignore them because they're on their side already), no Warp Engines because they're only there to troll the rest of the galaxy.
Hey, it doesn't say this ISN'T the case! Prove me wrong!
The burden of proof lies with the one who claims it to be true.
Grey Templar wrote:Well its not accurate in that regard since Russ's are definitely not civilian vehicles with guns and armor. They're full on military designed vehicles.
We were talking about Predators, which are Rhino APCs modified with extra armour and a turret. The Rhino APC is a modified colony rover.
Grey Templar wrote:Well its not accurate in that regard since Russ's are definitely not civilian vehicles with guns and armor. They're full on military designed vehicles.
We were talking about Predators, which are Rhino APCs modified with extra armour and a turret. The Rhino APC is a modified colony rover.
Direct comparison.
Correct. It gets continued use because it works. The Imperium is the top of the heap for a reason. If you want to see what a vehicle that began as a dedicated military transport looks like, the Land Raider fits the bill. Tougher than almost anything else in the galaxy with plenty of weapon options capable of fulfilling multiple roles.
Leman Russ on the other hand are rock hard MBT that sacrifices maneuverability for armor and weapons.
Grey Templar wrote:Well its not accurate in that regard since Russ's are definitely not civilian vehicles with guns and armor. They're full on military designed vehicles.
We were talking about Predators, which are Rhino APCs modified with extra armour and a turret. The Rhino APC is a modified colony rover.
Direct comparison.
Still not really. Because when that Rover was modified it was turned into a full on military vehicle.
The Rhino is 100% a military vehicle. Saying its equivalent to what was literally a civilian vehicle with guns and armor bolted on is just wrong.
Its more like taking the basic design, and upping it to military specs. Similar to what they do to make armored SUVs(which share very little in common with the civilian version besides what they look like. They get an entirely new chassis, body, engine, glass, armored plating, etc...)
The Bob Semple was just taking a civilian vehicle and bolting armor on. The Rhino was taking the same basic measurements as a civilian vehicle and rebuilding an entire new military vehicle with military grade everything.
Grey Templar wrote:Well its not accurate in that regard since Russ's are definitely not civilian vehicles with guns and armor. They're full on military designed vehicles.
We were talking about Predators, which are Rhino APCs modified with extra armour and a turret. The Rhino APC is a modified colony rover.
Direct comparison.
Still not really. Because when that Rover was modified it was turned into a full on military vehicle.
The Rhino is 100% a military vehicle. Saying its equivalent to what was literally a civilian vehicle with guns and armor bolted on is just wrong.
Its more like taking the basic design, and upping it to military specs. Similar to what they do to make armored SUVs(which share very little in common with the civilian version besides what they look like. They get an entirely new chassis, body, engine, glass, armored plating, etc...)
The Bob Semple was just taking a civilian vehicle and bolting armor on. The Rhino was taking the same basic measurements as a civilian vehicle and rebuilding an entire new military vehicle with military grade everything.
But I don't buy that the rhino is that different from the original rovers. They are only slightly more durable than the ork trukks after all. I think Predators are a sign of heavily modified rhinos upgraded for military use.
I should say "before they met humans after the warp storm died down." 
