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So, in the course of a different thread, a number of strains of thought weaved together.

1) The overwhelming majority of Imperium technology is from STCs

2) While a lot of these STCs are powerful, they usually lack features other advanced races have (example- Necrons, Eldar, D Eldar, and Tau all have vehicles that hover... and not as a gimmick, but as the standard). I couldn't name one off the top of my head from the Imperium except for the Land Speeder of the Space Marines [I could be wrong, and if so be polite when pointing that out]... especially one that sees widespread use. A Baneblade may be very capable, but it isn't very technologically advanced. It has a searchlight, not night vision gear. It has a really big gun, not one that fires with particularly nasty projectile velocity (like a railgun) or with a particular adeptness at bypassing armor (gauss or lances)

3)Humanity makes use of a number of rare yet (presumably) reproducible technologies like digital weapons, vortex grenades, grav weapons (if you're kind enough to realize their supposed rareness has nothing whatsoever to what tabletop actually looks like) Some of which have definite alien origins (digital weapons) while we're given evidence of knowledge of some from before/during the Great Crusade (grav weapons) and are (to my knowledge) completely unaware of how others are made (vortex grenades)

4) The AdMech has command of most of humanity's technology, and thus, any information on the difference between xenotech and archeotech is based one on of two sources of knowledge- empirical evidence or the word of the incredibly secretive Admech

For any piece of archeotech, why should we believe it was actually human technology? Why should we believe, even if it was at one point human, that xenos weren't instrumental in its development?

After all, we know very, very little about the "Dark" Age of Technology, past that there was a great robot rebellion and that the Emperor of Mankind lived through it.

How could *any*one tell if the AdMech isn't just making up the difference based on how harmful they think the tech would be to humanity and if they could get caught passing xenotech off as human?

Who says it's not human?

Humanity has technology even now comparable to the other races. The only races actually more advanced at the moment are Eldar and Necron.

If the question is being asked, evidence to the contrary is what needs to be provided.

Its very likely, almost certain, that mankind traded technology with aliens countless times over the last 30,000 years.

But ultimately, that doesn't matter. The Ad Mech doesn't care if technology came originally or in part from aliens, they care if it was sanctified and brought into line with the Omnissiah's grand designs. Thats why they still do research with alien technology and attempt to even reproduce and harness it. But they need to make sure such technology is safe and that its thoroughly tested.

They actually succeeded in reverse engineering Necron Gauss weaponry. But they never implemented it because the power requirements were far too high.

They aren't against all technology. They're just against wild and unrestrained development, after all that nearly led to mankind's extinction on more than one occasion.


And mankind was STUPID advanced during the DAoT. The Borg from ST, Forerunners from Halo, and even the SW Vong would have been club thumping savages compared to DAoT humanity. The Tau are witless apes in comparison.

Plenty of mankinds technology would indeed have been their own.

In one BL book, there is a DAoT ship which had a gun that created black holes.

In fairness the Yuuzhan vong ARE club thumping savages

BrianDavion wrote:
In fairness the Yuuzhan vong ARE club thumping savages

... that for most of a conflict bent over and spanked the Republic.

(The Remnant fared much better- especially by the time of Legacy)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
Who says it's not human?

Humanity has technology even now comparable to the other races. The only races actually more advanced at the moment are Eldar and Necron.

If the question is being asked, evidence to the contrary is what needs to be provided.

Lasguns and bolters instead of anything else.

Machine spirits instead of autonomous drones.

Treaded vehicles instead of skimmers.

Necron fleets routinely trash human fleets much, much larger than themselves.

Eldar are able to manipulate pathways that allow them to completely bypass traveling through the Warp.

The Tau strapped a starship weapon to a fighter plane in, at most, 2.5% of the time it took the AdMech to put metal plates over the cabling in Space Marine armor.

"Comparable to other races." You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Humans have scale. They build things really, really big. Big is not the same as advanced. A Tiger II tank is big. A Bradley is advanced. Conflict between the two ends when the Bradley destroys the other from beyond the other's range, after going across a river the Tiger II can't cross, at speeds the Tiger II can't match... which'd be the exact same if we replaced "Tiger II" with "Land Raider" and "Bradley" with "Falcon or Hammerhead."

Given the mediocre technology humanity gets from STCs, which we *KNOW* comes from STCs, it casts a lot of doubt on the origins of tech we know humanity can't mass-produce from Forge Worlds using STCs.

In armor design, weapon design, humans are ahead of everyone other than necron.

In power supply, travel and fabrication, and ships, humans are behind eldar and necrons.

I am not going to continue to entertain your fetishist notion of tau supremacy. It isn't based on anything but your notion of speed, which itself ignore a host of issues you ignore.

 PhillyT wrote:
In armor design, weapon design, humans are ahead of everyone other than necron.

Then do explain why they aren't the only species left?

Just because they are ahead technologically doesn't mean they will win every engagement. Even the Romans had problems with the barbarian tribes, and in the end the Barbarians took Rome.

 PhillyT wrote:
In armor design, weapon design, humans are ahead of everyone other than necron.

In power supply, travel and fabrication, and ships, humans are behind eldar and necrons.

I am not going to continue to entertain your fetishist notion of tau supremacy. It isn't based on anything but your notion of speed, which itself ignore a host of issues you ignore.

Armor design? Really? 3+ saves aren't hard to come by for Eldar, Necrons, or Tau. Neither are 4++ saves.

As for weapons, we've already discussed how a really big gun isn't advanced- it's just big... and with a lot of cool toys the Imperium has found, there's no reason to believe they're anything but monkeys pulling the trigger.

STCs are needed because humanity and the AdMech don't understand how the overwhelming majority of the systems they use work.

Why should we think humanity *ever* understood how to create grav guns or vortex grenades? The only reason you think any of that stuff was human because books say that the AdMech said so. The AdMech couldn't solder some anti-aircraft missiles and a radar onto a rhino chassis... with SIX THOUSAND YEARS to do it. Feats of engineering that are possible in 21st century America are impossible for the Imperium. The AdMech couldn't tell its butt from a hole in the ground.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:


In one BL book, there is a DAoT ship which had a gun that created black holes.

DAoT ship, or Old One ship?

I mean, could any of the characters in the novel be reasonably expected to 1) know the difference and 2) be honest about it?

Terminator armor, centurion armor, Imperial Knights, titans...

Weapon wise, the only thing tau have as their claim to fame is the rail gun. You hook an awful lot onto that one item when claiming Tau tech is comparable.

The fact that the imperium can create comparable weapons on the size of rail guns but also weapons of far greater power on larger scales you handwave.

You ignore genetic augmentation and cybernetics so advanced and pervasive as to be widely available to the middle class.
You talk about how far tau technology went in 6000 years while ignoring that, while opposed by the races of the universe, humanity expanded to encompass an area 40,000 times the number of planets as the Tau in under 15,000 years.

One general, Solar Marcharius, managed to carve out a section of space 40 times the size of the Tau empire in 7 years.

Your only defense for the technology seems to be "Maybe the Ad Mech was lying."

That is a ridiculous argument. Prove the Tau aren't just a very detailed menagerie made by Trazyn for the lols. It doesn't say he DIDN'T do it. So it must be true right?

Here is the core of every thought or argument you think you will make or want to: The Imperium of Man has bigger guns, better toys, and more people than the Tau will ever be capable of mustering. They have wizard magic and plot armor the likes of which the universe has never seen. They are the main characters of this little story of ours and will be until GW goes bankrupt in ten years. Deal with it.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

DAoT ship, or Old One ship?

I mean, could any of the characters in the novel be reasonably expected to 1) know the difference and 2) be honest about it?

There is absolutely no reason to think it was not a human made ship. The background makes it clear that the most powerful human technology has been lost hence why the Imperium relies on lesser (but incredibly efficient) vehicles. Saying that the loss of the vast majority of human technology means that technology was never particularly good is illogical.

I'd like to hear background about lone Hammerheads taking down Land Raiders with ease. Besides, in the Taros Campaign Imperial Armour books if I recall correctly it says that both Leman Russ Vanquishers and Basilisks in direct fire mode were capable of toe to toe with Hammerheads. That said I don't think Imperial Armour 3 was done well.

You have kind of hit on it. Emp will assume anything good in the Imperium might be alien in origin if it wasn't stated otherwise. Meanwhile, despite almost half of all weaponry being derived from Ion technology (given by an alien race in the fluff itself) he will pretend the Tau are well on their way to glorious self discovery...

Heck, even the Tau's method of FTL is a poor imitation of a crashed Imperial ship's warp drive.

Yeah, isn't Tau space travel limited, which is why their worlds tend to be close together?

Don't worry, Emp will have a reason why that is the smartest thing for them to do and that they will be explode into a massive expansion that sees them clear the entire galactic south east.

I look forward to the rebuttal. Also Titans were created without a STC, something which even the Tau were amazed at the destruction they could wrought.

Humanity created twenty demi gods in a single genetic experiment. It is routine in the imperium to take a 12 year old skin and bones kid dying of radiation sickness and transform him into a nine foot tall immortal unbelievably strong killing machine. On the other hand the Tau can't figure out a way to live past 40. So in genetics I'd say the imperium is way out front of everyone. Since the necrons could not extend their life span and the elves naturally live for thousands of years anyway.

Technically, the Necrons did find out how to extend their life span

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Technically, the Necrons did find out how to extend their life span

Yes, their unlifespan! You are right!

Actually there was a Titan STC, but it was destroyed. The Ad Mech only reproduces existing titans because they have the STC blueprints for them, but the original STC was possessed and had to be destroyed.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, isn't Tau space travel limited, which is why their worlds tend to be close together?

Yup. They can only go a few light years jump at a time, and it takes so long they have to put everyone in stasis. The Tau were actually stupid lucky that their homeworld was in a cluster of densely packed stars, otherwise they'd never have made it beyond their homeworld. Normal galactic star distribution would mean their ships would run out of power long before they made it to the nearest star, let alone nearest star with a habitable planet.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually there was a Titan STC, but it was destroyed. The Ad Mech only reproduces existing titans because they have the STC blueprints for them, but the original STC was possessed and had to be destroyed.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, isn't Tau space travel limited, which is why their worlds tend to be close together?

Yup. They can only go a few light years jump at a time, and it takes so long they have to put everyone in stasis. The Tau were actually stupid lucky that their homeworld was in a cluster of densely packed stars, otherwise they'd never have made it beyond their homeworld. Normal galactic star distribution would mean their ships would run out of power long before they made it to the nearest star, let alone nearest star with a habitable planet.

Did they? Where do they mention that? If its a 30k Admech source it would explain why I missed that.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its very likely, almost certain, that mankind traded technology with aliens countless times over the last 30,000 years.

But ultimately, that doesn't matter. The Ad Mech doesn't care if technology came originally or in part from aliens, they care if it was sanctified and brought into line with the Omnissiah's grand designs. Thats why they still do research with alien technology and attempt to even reproduce and harness it. But they need to make sure such technology is safe and that its thoroughly tested.

They actually succeeded in reverse engineering Necron Gauss weaponry. But they never implemented it because the power requirements were far too high.

They aren't against all technology. They're just against wild and unrestrained development, after all that nearly led to mankind's extinction on more than one occasion.


And mankind was STUPID advanced during the DAoT. The Borg from ST, Forerunners from Halo, and even the SW Vong would have been club thumping savages compared to DAoT humanity. The Tau are witless apes in comparison.

Plenty of mankinds technology would indeed have been their own.

In one BL book, there is a DAoT ship which had a gun that created black holes.

DAOT humanity was not beyond Halo Forerunners, they're equals. Forerunners at their height were producing von neumann swarms of drones that exponentially increased in firepower the more they combined, installations with the mass of a planet on a daily basis, building shield worlds the size of a small space station but contained a pocket dimension, etc.Oh, and for combat they'd simply drop part of your ship in another dimension or deposit a black hole in your ship. Their armor also adapted to pretty much anything that didn't instantly kill the Warrior Servant inside.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

For any piece of archeotech, why should we believe it was actually human technology?

You forgot to add: "...i'm just asking questions."

Also, with medical tech the IOM laughably outstrips the Tau to a hilarious degree. The IOM can extend the lifespan of VIP's well into their several hundred years. Rejuvie is incredibly advanced stem cell treatment that theoretically might even be able to sustain someone ad infinitum.

I dunno, I thought the fluff stated rejuvie tech "only" lasted until around 300 or so years old (which, considering that average human lifespan seems to be the same as real life, is still REALLY impressive)

To further extend that in a non-heretical fashion requires an esophagus and almost no one takes it cause you're basically a vegetable living in a coffin.

There are several heretical technologies that can extend it further but these are heretical for a good (and utterly HORRIFIC) reason...

Again though, that's still insanely impressive considering that unaugmented life span seems unchanged.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I dunno, I thought the fluff stated rejuvie tech "only" lasted until around 300 or so years old .

Nah... The Inquisitor Eisenhorn was going strong at 350 or so, and expected to live as long again if he didn't get killed in the line of duty. He did pass on the cosmetics though, he looked like a grumpy and battlescarred elderly man.

Calm down people its just a game. Besides doesn't tau fluff explicitly state that they're more advanced than humanity? Human tech is fairly low on the scale going from Necrons at the top to the eldars to the tau then the imperium followed by orks and last is tyranids because they really don't use tech.

No it doesn't.

And no, human tech isn't fairly low. The only races with greater overall technology are the Eldar and the Necron.

People really have lost touch with how advanced technology became during the Dark Age.

The imperium is not as advanced as it was in the dark age and that tech is mostly lost or destroyed. Current imperial tech is not quite as good as the tau. If you want an example look at plasma technology that can blow up killing the shooter. Just last week I saw a Space marine get enveloped by his own weapon. I can only see that happen with tau on experimental weaponry. Now I think the IoM and tau are technologically close but on weapons I think the tau win given pulse technology, rail weapons etc.

Your example is flawed. Tau turn down they power of thier plasma weapons to keep it contained. The imperium doesn't care.

Tau have one thing better, rail guns. Boom. Amazing. Not really the same thing as better overall.

Humans have teleportation, void shields, void grenades, conversion beakers, terminator armor, knights, war drives, power weapons, cybernetics, the list goes on.