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I was under the impression the Necrons and C'Tan couldn't use the Warp in any way?

pm713 wrote:
I was under the impression the Necrons and C'Tan couldn't use the Warp in any way?

My understanding is that they've got such effective technology against the Warp's effects that they use it anyway.

Much like the Imperium does, just without any fear of daemons, heresy, etc.

The C'Tan could not. The Necrons, being living creatures, could. This is why the C'Tan recruited them to fight the Old Ones, the Necrons could go where the C'Tan could not (the Warp was antithetical to the very nature of their existence).

Has it always been that or was this something added recently?

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

There is no evidence to suggest that. As far as I know Dolmen Gates were only used for some long ranged travel (essentially quickly moving an army to a point they were not previously established) via hacking into the Webway. Phasing out, the Celestial Orrery, living metal, Inertialess Drives, bio-transference itself, time travel, reading the future (through the stars!), mind shackle scarabs, deathmarks, pocket dimensions; none of them use(d) the Warp in anyway from what I've read.

Tau ships struggle to match the human ones and are certainly outmatched by Eldar and Necron vessels. Also some of the giant Orks ones.

The Celestial Orrery could have component parts. However considering the communication array of the Necrons decayed during their sleep I don't see why the Orrery would fare better without tending to.

For the Tau we have no idea what the Caste ratio is. The Tau selectively breed so it's possible that different Castes are constrained to different sizes. They also have far smaller supply lines and are able to consolidate their gains easier than the Imperium can (due to being continuously attacked in a lot of different locations. I

There is significant circumstantial evidence and no evidence to contradict that Dolmen Gates use the warp. Also, the Webway is a set of permanent tunnels on the edge of the warp, so it would hardly be "not using the warp" to use the Webway, technically speaking.

Phasing out? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp. Almost gave you that one though.

Living metal? The Tau have nanite technology, "minidrones" I think the Farsight Supplement calls them. Also used to keep a bloke alive, rather ominiously.

Inertialess drives? Could just be well engineered dampeners built-in.

Bio-transference? There's a damned dead guy piloting one of Farsight's buddy-suits as an AI! Neural interfaces are how battlesuit pilots operate.

Time travel? Possible with warp manipulation.

Reading the future? Mathematics + time manipulation from the warp. The Eldar do the same thing, examining possible events through a psyker-based approach. Necrons probably just stick a computer in a warp bubble with a huge time differential and let it stew. Also, Wardite heresy.

Mind-shackle scarabs? See bio-transference. Tau could do it, just hasn't occurred to them because either they're too cute and fluffy or the Ethereals don't want competition.

Deathmarks? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bollocks, I've just come to the conclusion that the Tau are the Necrons. Or cloned by the Eldar from Necrons.

This is not good.

Except Phase Out works pretty much wherever. The devices/powers that stop Warp energies and effects do not stop Phase Out. Also, as the Tomb Complex is warded against entities from the Warp from entering it via the Warp, and yet the various Necron units are not summarily blocked, this would imply that Phase Out does not, in fact, utilize the Warp.

Bio-transference is far more than digitizing someone's consciousness. If that's what we're calling it, then the Imperium is also capable of this feat, as the AdMech grants this boon to their senior Tech-priests, moving their entire memory and personality into a microchip installed in their adamantium skulls, having undergone the Rite of Pure Thought and cast aside the last vestiges of the flesh, they become One with the machine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Has it always been that or was this something added recently?

Always been that way. Otherwise, there was no reason for the C'Tan to use the Necrons. They had no use for them outside of this role. The nature of the Necrons has changed with 5th/6th Ed, as they are no longer a cancer-ridden pathetic race trapped on one dying world but instead the masters of the galaxy with a far-flung empire of dynastic lords and super-science, who might have demanded the secrets of eternal life from the Old Ones (or this might have been a line of propaganda fed to the Necron populace to justify going to war with them) and then attacked them when they were refused. The first war with the Old Ones did not end well for the Necrons, as they lacked (at the time) the understanding of the Warp, and the ability to resist the warp-based powers (which would come with the C'Tan). The C'Tan (specifically, the Deceiver) told the Silent King that they, too, had been defeated by the Old Ones, so why don't we, you know, join sides? Whether or not this had actually happened is something we'll never know, as any who could say with certainty have either died or been sharded.

From the C'Tan, the Necrons advanced their already-considerable mastery of the physical sciences to a very great degree... but the whole practice of Bio-Transference was something that they came up with on their own (and had a pretty massive civil war over, too).

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
There is significant circumstantial evidence and no evidence to contradict that Dolmen Gates use the warp. Also, the Webway is a set of permanent tunnels on the edge of the warp, so it would hardly be "not using the warp" to use the Webway, technically speaking.

Phasing out? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp. Almost gave you that one though. Give me proof of your fanfic

Living metal? The Tau have nanite technology, "minidrones" I think the Farsight Supplement calls them. Also used to keep a bloke alive, rather ominiously. He is kept alive via a blade of unknown origins, that gives him the life span of the person he kills

Inertialess drives? Could just be well engineered dampeners built-in. Yes lets ignore what two novels and a codex say, either way Tau still don't have it

Bio-transference? There's a damned dead guy piloting one of Farsight's buddy-suits as an AI! Neural interfaces are how battlesuit pilots operate. Yes it's an AI of his battle-routines not actually him

Time travel? Possible with warp manipulation. But they don't use the warp

Reading the future? Mathematics + time manipulation from the warp. The Eldar do the same thing, examining possible events through a psyker-based approach. Necrons probably just stick a computer in a warp bubble with a huge time differential and let it stew. Also, Wardite heresy. Cool can the Tau do it then?

Mind-shackle scarabs? See bio-transference. Tau could do it, just hasn't occurred to them because either they're too cute and fluffy or the Ethereals don't want competition. lol where is your proof

Deathmarks? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp. Once again they don't use the warp

The lack of knowledge of your "supposed" faction leads me to believe that you are deliberately being obtuse and extending this argument for no more reason than to waste our time. If you can't back up your claims with evidence and other wise contribute to the discussion please leave, either way you are going to be ignored by me.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
No Necrons are still better, which guess what! Means Tau aren't the most advanced.

So where is the rest of the Tau tech? They got plasma at MOST.

I'm getting really annoyed all these Tau players keep writing off Necrons, juuuuuuust a little, you may be able to tell that I like Necrons from that.

The Crons don't have anything the Tau are incapable of in theory, except the reality bending stuff which is best classed with warp-related subjects than the sciences, and of which the Eldar are the masters. Or they were, perhaps the Crons have more knowledge of the Immaterium now that Eldar civilisation is basically dumped on. Of course, execution does lend itself to the Necron cause in this regard. They have actually built utterly terrifying weapons, whereas the Tau may have the tech and know-how to do so, but haven't exploited it to its fullest yet.

The Tau are flat-earth atheists though, they'll never be capable of using warp-based tech at anywhere near the same level as the Eldar. Though that's perhaps an advantage considering humanity's problems with it and the fact the Eldar get their souls raped by a god of their own creation.

Man I hate Tau Fanboys who seem to have read the Tau codex exclusively.

Get back to me when the Tau have firearms that use incredibly advanced magnets bordering on space magic to strip away the atoms of a target and suck it back into the gun at speeds that are probably faster than light, and ignore durability completely, against which the only armor that does anything is density based. gak, you're really drinking from the Tau Cool-Aid if you seriously think Tau have teleporation without the warp, time travel without the warp, inertialess drives, living metal (Necrodermis is not made of nanites, it's quite simply esoteric), the celestial orrery, phase weapons, phasing, weaponized teleporation beams, computers so advanced they predict all possible futures, etc.

Oh, and along with the God Emperor, the Necrons are the only other faction preventing the Chaos Gods from consuming the entire universe with the Pylons. So there's that too.

Having safeguards and technical loopholes to allow means for friendlies to teleport in and out of Necron facilities while keeping warp entities out would be essential in any fight against said warp entities...

As for Phase Out, I said it was inter-dimensional technology garnered from studying the warp. If the Old Ones can create the webway, the Necrons can create less advanced or temporary bubbles of other dimensions. If you can jump into one "other" reality, why not another in turn?

Biotransference is taking one's consciousness and placing it in a machine. Simply because the Necron version stripped their souls away doesn't mean it is the only form. The AdMech One with the Machine concept and Tau AI tech are biotransference by the most basic definition. It just hasn't been combined with nanite/living metal tech by either, and it isn't designed to feed a star god or two...

 Psienesis wrote:


Always been that way. Otherwise, there was no reason for the C'Tan to use the Necrons. They had no use for them outside of this role. The nature of the Necrons has changed with 5th/6th Ed, as they are no longer a cancer-ridden pathetic race trapped on one dying world but instead the masters of the galaxy with a far-flung empire of dynastic lords and super-science, who might have demanded the secrets of eternal life from the Old Ones (or this might have been a line of propaganda fed to the Necron populace to justify going to war with them) and then attacked them when they were refused. The first war with the Old Ones did not end well for the Necrons, as they lacked (at the time) the understanding of the Warp, and the ability to resist the warp-based powers (which would come with the C'Tan). The C'Tan (specifically, the Deceiver) told the Silent King that they, too, had been defeated by the Old Ones, so why don't we, you know, join sides? Whether or not this had actually happened is something we'll never know, as any who could say with certainty have either died or been sharded.

From the C'Tan, the Necrons advanced their already-considerable mastery of the physical sciences to a very great degree... but the whole practice of Bio-Transference was something that they came up with on their own (and had a pretty massive civil war over, too).

Wonder where I got the idea from then.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Man I hate Tau Fanboys who seem to have read the Tau codex exclusively.

Get back to me when the Tau have firearms that use incredibly advanced magnets bordering on space magic to strip away the atoms of a target and suck it back into the gun at speeds that are probably faster than light, and ignore durability completely, against which the only armor that does anything is density based. gak, you're really drinking from the Tau Cool-Aid if you seriously think Tau have teleporation without the warp, time travel without the warp, inertialess drives, living metal (Necrodermis is not made of nanites, it's quite simply esoteric), the celestial orrery, phase weapons, phasing, weaponized teleporation beams, computers so advanced they predict all possible futures, etc.

Oh, and along with the God Emperor, the Necrons are the only other faction preventing the Chaos Gods from consuming the entire universe with the Pylons. So there's that too.

*sigh*

I didn't say the Tau had all those technologies.

I said the Necrons' advancements over the Tau are the result of a far better understanding of the warp, and that the Tau are the masters of the empirical material sciences. Because they have to be, in order to have any sort of chance of surviving as non-psyker aliens.

EDIT: Also, the Tau have grav manipulation tech and particle physics on a level high enough to create Gauss weapons. Again, it wouldn't occur to them to build them because they have highly effective weapons that are mass produced already. I suspect gauss weapons were a development for the War in Heaven.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Man I hate Tau Fanboys who seem to have read the Tau codex exclusively.

Get back to me when the Tau have firearms that use incredibly advanced magnets bordering on space magic to strip away the atoms of a target and suck it back into the gun at speeds that are probably faster than light, and ignore durability completely, against which the only armor that does anything is density based. gak, you're really drinking from the Tau Cool-Aid if you seriously think Tau have teleporation without the warp, time travel without the warp, inertialess drives, living metal (Necrodermis is not made of nanites, it's quite simply esoteric), the celestial orrery, phase weapons, phasing, weaponized teleporation beams, computers so advanced they predict all possible futures, etc.

Oh, and along with the God Emperor, the Necrons are the only other faction preventing the Chaos Gods from consuming the entire universe with the Pylons. So there's that too.

*sigh*

I didn't say the Tau had all those technologies.

I said the Necrons' advancements over the Tau are the result of a far better understanding of the warp, and that the Tau are the masters of the empirical material sciences. Because they have to be, in order to have any sort of chance of surviving as non-psyker aliens.

Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.

Again, that doesn't stop them from manipulating the warp and using it for their own ends. The pylons on Cadia alone prove that.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.

Again, that doesn't stop them from manipulating the warp and using it for their own ends. The pylons on Cadia alone prove that.

Which is also the only known example of them using the warp. Otherwise they teleport and phase through other dimensions completely unrelated to the warp.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.

Again, that doesn't stop them from manipulating the warp and using it for their own ends. The pylons on Cadia alone prove that.

How? Blocking something does not = controlling.

pm713 wrote:

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Except the Necrons are not connected to the warp at all after the biotransfer. IIRC they can't even enter it anymore without bad things happening.Their tech specifically does not use the warp, and rather appears to be magic simply because of how laughably advanced they are.

Again, that doesn't stop them from manipulating the warp and using it for their own ends. The pylons on Cadia alone prove that.

How? Blocking something does not = controlling.

Not to mention the Necrons themselves and their gods are the complete antithesis of the warp.

Manipulating when and where the warp appears would be enough to create far more powerful defences against the warp, far better teleportation tech, and have a deeper understanding of interdimensional physics. "Blocking it out" gives you a lot of options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Not to mention the Necrons themselves and their gods are the complete antithesis of the warp.

Which isn't a problem if you can "block it out" to prevent it from causing you harm...

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
Manipulating when and where the warp appears would be enough to create far more powerful defences against the warp, far better teleportation tech, and have a deeper understanding of interdimensional physics. "Blocking it out" gives you a lot of options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Not to mention the Necrons themselves and their gods are the complete antithesis of the warp.

Which isn't a problem if you can "block it out" to prevent it from causing you harm...

Except you still haven't produced any source stating that Necrons use the warp for things like teleportation. The Codices just describe them as using other dimensions, and zero mention of the warp.

I infer that they use the warp because:

A. They had every opportunity to study warp technology during the War in Heaven.
B. They had every motivation to not get destroyed during the War in Heaven by warp-tech weapons, warp manipulation was essential to their survival.
C. The ability to manipulate the warp to the extent the Necrons can would open up many useful possibilities.
D. Those possibilities largely line up with Necron capabilities.
E. The Warp is the means by which every other species teleports, travels, etc.
F: I refuse to endorse the Wardite Heresy that every codex army he wrote about is "special" via throwaway passages to other dimensions.

For the record, I think the Necrons are class. I think the Tau nicked their original plasma tech off some Imperial remnants or tech they picked up along the way.

I just think that the Tau are the "non-magical" race and that it doesn't make sense for the Necrons to have access to another "magical" dimension when a perfectly serviceable one already exists, and they have proven power over that.

Necrons are the "Super Science!" race, like from a 1950s sci-fi movie.

 Psienesis wrote:
Necrons are the "Super Science!" race, like from a 1950s sci-fi movie.

Not denying that either, I'm saying they got their edge from studying warp-based tech during the War in Heaven.

They're possibly the most advanced race overall because it's science + magic. Could even outdo the Eldar given how far that species has fallen. The Tau are flat earth atheists, so their balance on that count is weighted entirely to one end of the spectrum.

Oh god, we haven't now moved to trying to claim Tau are better than the NEcron have we?

The fluff pretty clearly spells out that the Necron are the limit of materium technology. They were extremely high tech before meeting the Ctan, and the CTan then took it to the next level sicne they had ultimate knowledge on physics and the galaxies laws, to the point where they could break them.

There is no plausible line of argument that could place the Tau within even a sniff of the Necron. They aren't even as high tech as the Imperium, who themselves are demonstrably less technologically advanced than the Necron.

On those cases where the fluff specifically states it, it is toughto deny.

People mention the Orrery, and rightly so. It is an item of such hideous power, yet to the Necron, it is mostly agalactic pruning device, not a weapon. They don't need it to be a weapon. They had items far more powerful at the end of the war of the heavens, which they used to shatter the CTan.

Agreeing and disagreeing a bit

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
I infer that they use the warp because:
A. They had every opportunity to study warp technology during the War in Heaven.
B. They had every motivation to not get destroyed during the War in Heaven by warp-tech weapons, warp manipulation was essential to their survival.
C. The ability to manipulate the warp to the extent the Necrons can would open up many useful possibilities.
D. Those possibilities largely line up with Necron capabilities.
E. The Warp is the means by which every other species teleports, travels, etc.
F: I refuse to endorse the Wardite Heresy that every codex army he wrote about is "special" via throwaway passages to other dimensions.

It's possible that the Necrons figured it out. It is also possible they didnt figure it out. Imagine you are the Japanese fighting the Americans in a dystopian WWII where the nuclear war goes on much longer. Also imagine that the Japanese cannot read any European text about how nuclear physics works.

Now would the Japanese getting nuked repeatedly give them some insight into how the Americans were building atomic bombs ?
If the Japanese captured an atomic bomb, on a crashed aircraft but otherwise intact, would they be able to understand it(beyond the this is the trigger)?
Even if they found out how to build say, a Uranium bomb through reverse engineering what they found. How easy would it be for them to build a plutonium bomb or a hydrogen bomb?

Just being on the losing side of a war against a psykic enemy that uses the warp doesnt mean you would figure out how the warp worked. Particularly if it was in a dimension that your race, was just genetically blind to.

It would appear to them that "We are losing the war because they[the old ones+eldar] are breaking the laws of physics"

They might scientifically be able to figure out. " Hmm, on this type of world, or against this type of energy field [they] are not able to break the laws of physics as badly." and then use more of those energy fields or more rocks similar to that planet. Evolution to being able to build a pylon, but knowing how to harness the warp for long distance travel, changing time and space, that might just be completely lost on them.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

I just think that the Tau are the "non-magical" race and that it doesn't make sense for the Necrons to have access to another "magical" dimension when a perfectly serviceable one already exists, and they have proven power over that.

I do agree that the Necrons seem to have a lot of abilities that every other race uses the warp for. If they dont use the warp, then how would they do it. I do also kind of reject that they found a cheaper better way to do it without using the warp that no one else can understand.

 PhillyT wrote:
Oh god, we haven't now moved to trying to claim Tau are better than the NEcron have we?

No, actually.

The Necrons sit atop the roost of tech as far as I'm concerned. I just claim that they are so because of their study and manipulation of the warp, and that the Tau are the head honchos of what one could call the sciences of the Materium.

TLDR:
Necrons: Good science + good magic.
Tau: Excellent science + terrible magic.

The Imperium is largely ahead of the Tau for the same reason; the Warp. They are outclassed entirely in material sciences because the AdMech don't believe in science...

Also, dealt with the Celestial Orrery in another post. Read back there lad.

The tau definitely had plasma tech before they met humans. There is a thing in the timeline about them perfecting the first pulse rifle.

I believe the Necron FTL method involves bending space. Much like how Star Trek "warp" drives work.

Thus you never ever actually exceed the speed of light, but cross vast distances. And no time distortion either.

And so the Necrons can cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye without using the Warp.

If you can create gravity, you can bend space-time. It works perfectly (at least on paper).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The tau definitely had plasma tech before they met humans. There is a thing in the timeline about them perfecting the first pulse rifle.

Before they met the Imperium. But, the Imperium was around the place long before they even got off the Tau homeworld.

It wouldn't surprise me if they discovered some "archeotech" or bought some from Rogue Traders. And not pulse rifles, those are Tau creations based on plasma tech. I mean the Imperial type plasmaguns that the battlesuits have toned down versions of.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The tau definitely had plasma tech before they met humans. There is a thing in the timeline about them perfecting the first pulse rifle.

I though first contact was rocks and sticks, then after a sudden warpstorm they came out as plasma tech society no?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The tau definitely had plasma tech before they met humans. There is a thing in the timeline about them perfecting the first pulse rifle.

Well, technically humanity first encountered the Tau as a primitive race who had just barely discovered fire. They logged all information away, and sent a colony fleet and planned to exterminate the natives on arrival.

But then the Warp storm hit and a few thousand years later the Tau emerge. First contact being a scout ship which was destroyed upon being discovered by an Imperial planet. The corpses of the Tau onboard were genetically matched to the data that was collected by the original Explorator team.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe the Necron FTL method involves bending space. Much like how Star Trek "warp" drives work.

Thus you never ever actually exceed the speed of light, but cross vast distances. And no time distortion either.

And so the Necrons can cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye without using the Warp.

and yet if they can move faster than entities that use the warp, how is it that they lost?