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The presence of Rhinos on grav units in Visions implies that the Rhino with tracks is a retrofit though.



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I thought the grav unit rhinos were a later modification used mainly by the adeptus custodes.

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It is possible. Looking good in a maid outfit does not make me an expert on Custodes.



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I don't know, the only images I have seen of the grav land raiders and rhinos were AC ones. They could have been more wide spread though.

I assume the conversion of rovers to rhinos is similar to the conversion of the knights from worker titans to small scale combat titans. All they really did was put a shield on them and a big gun. Similarly, rhinos are just the old rovers with limited modifications.

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He's right you know. A Predator with lascannon sponsons is far superior to a Hammerhand in killing power. Admittedly, part of the this is due to the high BS of its gunners.

Tau units in general, if you do the math, are constructed so as to underperform Imperial elite (that is, SM) equivalents. That's because they're designed as a synergy army and you need multiple units working together to match Imperial elite levels.

Anyway, Tau are not presented or designed as the most technologically advanced race, and I'm not sure where this idea comes from. They are presented as the most rational race, which is differemt.
   
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Alcibiades wrote:
He's right you know. A Predator with lascannon sponsons is far superior to a Hammerhand in killing power. Admittedly, part of the this is due to the high BS of its gunners.

Tau units in general, if you do the math, are constructed so as to underperform Imperial elite (that is, SM) equivalents. That's because they're designed as a synergy army and you need multiple units working together to match Imperial elite levels.

Anyway, Tau are not presented or designed as the most technologically advanced race, and I'm not sure where this idea comes from. They are presented as the most rational race, which is differemt.

It's all to do with a combination of visuals (they, and the eldar, look the highest tech), and the comparison tot he majority of the imperium. The tau are high-tech, but not the highest. Of the high-tech races, they are on the bottom, but those above them have had millennia to advance, where they have had less than 1, IIRC.

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 Co'tor Shas wrote:

It's all to do with a combination of visuals (they, and the eldar, look the highest tech), and the comparison tot he majority of the imperium. The tau are high-tech, but not the highest. Of the high-tech races, they are on the bottom, but those above them have had millennia to advance, where they have had less than 1, IIRC.


40K factions are really about _themes_. Tau are supposed to be up-and-coming, rational, advancing. The Imperium are hidebound and superstitious, Space Dark Ages. The absolutely most advanced race, Necrons, are insane DnD liches in space. Neither of the latter are moving forward into the glorious future, that's not their schtick. So naturally enough Tau equipment is designed to fit our image of "rational and advancing."



   
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http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Void_Dragon *drops microphone and walks off stage*
   
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You can pick your microphone back up, because the belief that the Void Dragon has guided human technological development is, at best, theoretical. After all, there were thousands of years of human development before the Emperor beat the piss out of the Void Dragon with a metal sword and dragged it to Mars on a horse.

If we want to posit that position as true, then the Tau are, likewise, not responsible for their own technology, and are instead probably guided by the Eldar (who also have a mastery of plasma technology), who were guided by the Old Ones.

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Really?

The Emperor subdued the Void Dragon in, like, the 5th century. Its not like we had any notable tech prior to that.

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4th century, actually, but by that point in history we had:

Metallurgy, alchemy, mathematics, advanced geometry, astronomy, navigation, the invention of the wheel, fire, the inclined plane, the ability to separate pure chemicals from their naturally-occurring forms...

Just to name a few off the top of my head.

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Sure, its notable IRL. In the context of 40k, its not. Those tech are just basic stuff any sentient species will have.

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The Tau didn't, prior to the Warp Storms. It is also the basic principles on which all of our technology is built.

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what are you all talking about? the Void Dragon was imprisoned somewhere in the 20k time period.

By then humanity evolved far beyond.

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Quickjager wrote:
what are you all talking about? the Void Dragon was imprisoned somewhere in the 20k time period.

By then humanity evolved far beyond.


No.

The story of St George and the Dragon is, in 40k, the tale of the Emperor capturing the Void Dragon. That happened in the 4th century.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
what are you all talking about? the Void Dragon was imprisoned somewhere in the 20k time period.

By then humanity evolved far beyond.


No.

The story of St George and the Dragon is, in 40k, the tale of the Emperor capturing the Void Dragon. That happened in the 4th century.


This is... interesting; however refering to the Lexicanum it states the dragon also fought the Emperor in the 11th century as well.

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There is plenty of fluff that shows that the Void Dragon informed many of humanities advancements. It was partly responsible for some of those super weapons of the DAoT. But this ignores a very real truth: Humans were still powerful enough to defeat and imprision a Ctan (or at least the largest remnant of the Void Dragon ever found - most likely it is almost all of the Void Dragon) and then set up a technological process to force secrets from him.

Humanity is the prime motivating force in the Galaxy. It is primarily responsible for one of the big bads (Chaos) and is the focal point of all of the stories because it is relatable.

Tau are presented as forward thinking to give them a niche. Yes, they produce new and interesting technologies, but so do orks. Tau can never reach the peak that the Necrons are, because that is the Necron's whole bag. They also had the advantage of the CTan, who understood the universe in ways no other entity can.

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This is... interesting; however refering to the Lexicanum it states the dragon also fought the Emperor in the 11th century as well.


That is a Lexi editor thinking that a statue depicting St. George and the Dragon (built in the 11th century) was contemporaneous with the event. Saint George was an early-Christian soldier in the 4th Century AD.

There is plenty of fluff that shows that the Void Dragon informed many of humanities advancements. It was partly responsible for some of those super weapons of the DAoT. But this ignores a very real truth: Humans were still powerful enough to defeat and imprision a Ctan (or at least the largest remnant of the Void Dragon ever found - most likely it is almost all of the Void Dragon) and then set up a technological process to force secrets from him


It is, at best, a shard, as you can get C'Tan shards for your Necron army that have the same machine-control powers that the Void Dragon has. This would not be possible if the entire Void Dragon was imprisoned in Mars.

Also, it was one human, one guy, who beat the piss out of it with an iron sword. Don't feth with the Emperor when he has a plan for you, whether you like that plan or not. He'll drag you to Mars on a horse.

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Isn't the fluff that it was the Emperor who did it, not some human soldier? And the emperor can turn pretty much anything into a force weapon after all.

As far as the shard, the old fluff was that it was the entire VOid Dragon, since at that point, the shard idea didn't exist. You would probably need to make an adjustment give nthe new fluff, saying it is just a shard (since obviously the Silent King would have shattered the Void Dragon at the end of the War of Heaven). But it would be a massive shard given the size of the chamber he coats.

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 Furyou Miko wrote:
We just had the discussion about how human tech is stocked full of night vision gear, so that angle of attack can be dropped completely.

Also, there's a lot of poor information being thrown aroudn here.

There's only one thing called an STC. An STC is a box that makes things. What it can make is determied by an STC wafer - the data disks that have individual recipes on them.

When they were deployed, all STC devices had a full set of STC wafers.

STC wafers are highly fragile, and most of them have broken down or been damaged to the point of unusability. Most STC wafers that are found in tact are found separated from their STC machine.


You're not far off the mark, there. An STC during the Dark Age of Technology was pretty much an extremely advanced computing system that was able to print out schematics for virtually anything you asked it to, including generators, shelters, transportation, means of defence, etc, and possessed a limited degree of artificial intelligence to allow it to do so. It could tell you how to build a Bugatti Veyron, engine, interior, body and all.

You punch in 'Tractor' into the console and it would literally print out 'How To Build A Tractor For Idiots - With Pictures!'

Hence, a 'fragment' of an STC is a small piece of data extracted from the storage of an STC. It's why they're so valuable: it tells you exactly how to put together the object, what materials it uses, how to fabricate those materials, what its usage is, where it can be used, how it can be used, the list goes on and on. An STC for a Land Raider - for example - would even tell you how to attach weapons to the sponsons/hull, how to resolve compatibility issues such as 'where the hell do I put the las-capacitors?!', how to modify the interior to accept these new mounts. If a fully functioning STC was found, it would revolutionise the Imperium: it would contain every single schematic for every single piece of technology invented by humanity from the Dark Age of Technology, and would be able to make completely new schematics from old ones. The scientific theory would be down to the AdMech to advance, but once a revised theory is uploaded, the STC would reconfigure every schematic that uses the old principle to use the newer, better one.

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Well put!

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Last I checked, isn't there actually a fully intact STC hidden away in a library on a planet, somewhere? That being said, searching for STCs tends to pan out far less than expected. It would probably be far less expensive if the Admech just turned their armies loose on Mars to purge the tunnels and recover their information below ground.

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 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Last I checked, isn't there actually a fully intact STC hidden away in a library on a planet, somewhere? That being said, searching for STCs tends to pan out far less than expected. It would probably be far less expensive if the Admech just turned their armies loose on Mars to purge the tunnels and recover their information below ground.


It is likely that - somewhere, in the most obscure corner of the galaxy protected by forces sufficient to warrant a Crusade of over several dozen Space Marine chapters, dozens more Guard Regiments, and hundreds of AdMech personnel - there is a fully functioning STC.

But for Mars?

Not. A. Chance.

What follows is the most concise summary of the AdMech and technological state of the Imperium I've ever seen. Swearing aplenty: you have been warned.

Spoiler:
Mars is an anarchic nightmare pit the moment you leave the safe zones into the kilometres of labyrinthine corridors beneath it full of rogue machinery, self-aware and malevolent AI from before the Fall, and the daemon programs of the Heresy. EVERYTHING in the databases is f***ed. The databases are fragmented over the entire surface to the extent that it would be impossible to see one tenth of the total files in the ludicrously extended life of a Magos (300+ YEARS) even assuming that they are completely safe to visit. And they are not.

The files have been corrupted into madness by the Fall, and the unleashing of the most potent informational warfare systems ever to exist to defeat the Iron Men. Nearly all of Mars was rendered uninhabitable, what they live in now is built on the top of the ruins. They send archeotech expeditions in to find something - anything at all - and nearly all of them never come back. The sheer number of rogue war machine running around in there is sufficient to rape the mind. Then came the Heresy, which was not earth-exclusive. Mars as the second most critical planet in the Imperium was the site of fighting nearly as ferocious as on Terra, with Mechanicus loyalists and Hereteks fighting tooth, nail, and mechadendrite everywhere. Ancient machines were unleashed, viruses both normal and daemonic unleashed into all the computer systems to deny the opponent from gaining an advantage. Nearly every single stored record on Mars was rendered unusable, and those that survived are - more than half of the time - self-aware and don't like you, or daemonic and actively try to kill you.

If you come back with a schematic, it is almost certainly gibberish because the rest of it is missing, and if it isn't, it's probably corrupted into uselessness. If it does come back whole it was probably malevolently f***ed with by Chaos or something so that instead of an advanced Lasgun power cell it's a f***ing grenade set to detonate the second you finish building it. Why do you think they want off-world STCs so damned much if they had them all on Mars? The f***ing Heresy is why. Off-world they only have to contend with the Fall's war and its effects on the machinery plus twenty thousand years of degradation with no maintenance or maintenance that resulted in severe damage to the STC. But at least off-world it'll probably just not work instead of actively seeking to kill you.

Why do you think they seek to placate the Machine Spirit? It's because it exists. It's fragments of trillions of self-aware programs that flourished during the Dark Age of Technology and were shattered by Man in his war with the Iron men, who also imprisoned the few who had not set themselves irrevocably into the machinery, a prison smashed wide open by the Heresy, and whoo boy were they p*****. Everything that can hold programming in the Imperium has a shard of a program in it. EVERYTHING. And you'd better f***ing please it or it will do everything in its power to make your day a living nightmare. Sure, if it's a Lasgun it'll just not work or start shooting off rounds by itself, but if you piss off a Land Raider you can say bye-bye to half a continent. They apply these principles to things without spirits by habit, since they're so used to dealing with tanks that if not talked to just right might go rogue and annihilate the Manufactorum before they can be killed. It's been going for so long it's just become an instinct: placate it so it doesn't kill everyone it sees.

This is why they do not like ANYONE f***ing with technology, because it is so rare to find anything that just works it is critical to prevent it from being compromised. That, and they do not have the actual knowledge to f*** with it intelligently, just through experimentation, which inevitably leads to slaughter. Pressing buttons to see what works is fine in a 21st century computer, but it is a very stupid thing to do at the helm of a 410th century starship with the destructive power to end solar systems. The entire knowledge base of humanity was lost. Not forgotten, but outright lost. Everything at all, poof. Nobody knows anything because the Fall f***ed everything up and the Heresy double-f***ed it. To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up or miraculously finding an intact, non demonic, non corrupted, whole STC. They don't have the time, they never have, and they never will.

This gets on to the point of war and what it does to technology. Some will parrot that it makes it go much faster. Yes, it makes practical applications of technology go much faster. It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies. This means that when war chugs along for a decade or two things get done. It means when it goes on too long you run out of theories to turn into technologies, and then you run out of technologies to apply. You stagnate. When you have been fighting in a war for survival in a drastically overextended empire, this is what happens. You are desperate for any extra material that can possibly be produced. Half your entire f***ing military went rogue, smashed the half that stayed, leaving you with the tattered shreds of a war machine to keep hold of an empire that was reaching straining point against an army far larger than yours. There is no time for the sort of applied research programs that took Man twenty five thousand years to develop, in a time of unprecedented growth and prosperity.

This is also why the Adeptus Mechanicus insists on cargo cultism. It's because when you are dealing with things you barely understand because everything you knew about them was destroyed it is the safest and most reliable option. The rituals do not exists for mysticism, they exist because they are the most practical means of building, repairing and maintaining the equipment they have with the knowledge surviving. You don't understand why pressing that button makes it go, because the manual tried to take over your brain and the copies are all unreadable and the research base that would let you reverse-engineer it does not exist and cannot be built.

Why are the Tau doing so well with their technology? Because they had peace. Eight thousand years unmolested by any enemy and they were helped the entire time by the most advanced biological race in the galaxy. Give the Imperium eight thousand years of peace and I can guarantee you it will be harder and more powerful than it was during the Great Crusade.

Since some still don't get the idea, try this:

Build a library in a city, fill it with all human knowledge. You take it elsewhere when you need a book from it, but the book is only a simplified copy. You don't understand the real book, and you don't need to. Nobody takes the real books anywhere because why would you, when there's a whole library there?

Now that library goes rogue and the maintenance machinery starts killing everyone any-f***ing-where near it. Where the f*** did they all come from, you swear to God there weren't this many, and there weren't because they're using the library's information to fight their war and self-replicate. The government fights a battle against these robots and tears apart the library to stop them using it, only to be destroyed in the process, and nearly tearing the whole planet apart. The library is levelled, cast into flames, every book burned and every computer virus-laden.

Then comes a man who worked there. He talks to the few surviving library workers, assembles their information, and starts rebuilding a city around the library and expanding it as the librarians find little scraps of paper and fragmented bits of files that stuck together just right read something. They rebuild a library from scrap on the ashes of the old. It isn't a shadow on the glory of the old, but it is all they have.

Then the city turns on itself, kills its master, and the librarians turn to rage. Half of them kill the other half and destroy the remnants of the library because where they're going they won't need science. Everything burns, and the city is left to a scattered few survivors, walls open to the world, with the hungry predators circling.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is the sole surviving librarian, desperately scrabbling through the ashes of paper and splinters of hard drives for anything to help him and the city to survive for just a few seconds longer, just a few more moments escaping death.

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive thirty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single desperate decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a hopeless life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.


Now do you get it? Now do you get why 40k is so utterly Grimdark? Humanity has been nailed to a cliffside with nothing but a twig under its foot. It can't remove the nail, or it'll fall - screaming - to its death. It can't climb up because that same nail is pinning it there. Its only option is to pray for deliverance in the form of that twig growing into a branch sturdy enough to stand on. But the chances of that happening are minute. Less than minute. And to top it all off, there are some hungry eagles circling who would like nothing more than a nice piece of liver.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/11 11:33:16


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Indiana

No, there is a story on that STC Library. I'll have to look at the lexicanum for the info, but it does exist. As for the little Mars excerpt, I am very well aware of just how screwed up that planet is. Still, even if they don't bother using the STCs they find, cleaning out even a portion of the rogue machines down there is an investment if they can find actual preserved print outs from those STCs.

"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
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Cleaning out Mars would take more power than obliterating the Tau by a number best estimated as a magnitude.



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Great excerpt Myname!

How much work would it take to clear out those tunnels though? And like the post said, would it be worth all the work if all you find is junk?

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Truthfully it probably WOULD be worth the effort just to reclaim previous production facilities.

This is Mars we are talking about the throne of technology for the IoM. It's just that you would probably a score of Space Marine chapters and the entire AdMech army to clean it out over a hundred years or so.

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 PhillyT wrote:
Great excerpt Myname!

How much work would it take to clear out those tunnels though? And like the post said, would it be worth all the work if all you find is junk?


It'd take much, much, MUCH more effort than it's worth. Pretty much anything they strip from the remnants of the archives will either have been corrupted by a daemonic virus, gone rogue and malevolently altered the contents into something that would immediately go on a rampage and kill several hundred personnel before being taken out, or be so fragmented it's lost all context and meaning. Mars is not the place for STCs. If - by some miraculous circumstance - there was a surviving STC that had been disconnected from the entire grid and had withstood over 10000 years of no maintenance - which, given the state of some tech, is definitely within the realms of possibility - they still would have a lot of reservations about going down there to retrieve it. Mainly because of that bloody Void Dragon Shard. If the AdMech start scouring the tunnels by force and exterminating everything in their path, there is a good chance they will wake that Shard up from its nap. And boy, it will be pissed. So much, in fact, that you could wave goodbye to the entire Sol System.

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Uh, the AdMech don't actually know about the Shard though.

Nor will it be casually woken. It is being held in its slumber by a guardian, after all.



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Doesn't 1 guardians seem a bit....weak?

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