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How about we all agree that Nid tech is far superior. Better weaponry, the ability to constantly spawn more troops and the ability to alter soldiers to suit specific combat situations. Bio-tech is superior in every way

No flaw in it, the imperium doesn't care about the lives of their people, but the mechanicus worships the weapons they produce. They wouldn't hand out faulty weapons if they could make the weapons safer. "Your lives are replaceable, our weapons are not" or some such quote from the imperium. They can't mass produce powerful small arms plasma weaponry like the tau have. And as for the railgun being the only tau win look at plasma. Tau have mastered it. Then there's skimmer technology which is fairly rare in the IoM.

Redseer wrote:
No flaw in it, the imperium doesn't care about the lives of their people, but the mechanicus worships the weapons they produce. They wouldn't hand out faulty weapons if they could make the weapons safer. "Your lives are replaceable, our weapons are not" or some such quote from the imperium. They can't mass produce powerful small arms plasma weaponry like the tau have. And as for the railgun being the only tau win look at plasma. Tau have mastered it. Then there's skimmer technology which is fairly rare in the IoM.

Themesong for this thread.




Anyway Redseer he already addressed the plasma point. They don't care about the people using the plasma so they don't put restrictions on it's power. Notice how Tau's are 3 more AP and 2 less Str.

Except the Tau are NOT mass producing stuff. They only have to equip a few million soldiers.

The Imperium has billions and billions of soldiers.

The Tau have not "mastered" plasma. The only people who could claim that would be the Eldar. Who have plasma just as strong as the Imperium, but its also safe.

Imperial plasma is of equal tech to the Tau. The Tau just deliberately make weaker weapons because they don't want there to be any chance of the weapon injuring the wielder. Imperial plasma is stronger, but slightly dangerous.

This isn't a problem when soldiers are expendable.

THE HIVE MIND wrote:
How about we all agree that Nid tech is far superior.

It's actually one of the silliest scifi tropes in existence. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is crappy compared to tech, and having troops with fixed weapons is stupid in the extreme. They'll use more energy on getting something done than they can possibly gain from it. The only reason such a stupid race could have "eaten several galaxies" is if there was no moderately intelligent race to oppose them in any of those galaxies. The Milky Way will be their grave.

Redseer wrote:
The imperium is not as advanced as it was in the dark age and that tech is mostly lost or destroyed. Current imperial tech is not quite as good as the tau. If you want an example look at plasma technology that can blow up killing the shooter.

Imperial Plasma weaponry is also much more powerful. Probably because they allow it to overcharge.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Except the Tau are NOT mass producing stuff. They only have to equip a few million soldiers.

The Imperium has billions and billions of soldiers.

The Tau have not "mastered" plasma. The only people who could claim that would be the Eldar. Who have plasma just as strong as the Imperium, but its also safe.

Imperial plasma is of equal tech to the Tau. The Tau just deliberately make weaker weapons because they don't want there to be any chance of the weapon injuring the wielder. Imperial plasma is stronger, but slightly dangerous.

This isn't a problem when soldiers are expendable.

Isn't Eldar plasma only S5 AP2 in game?

S6 with more shots I think. Plus they have it in grenades.

For the record, plasma pulse technology is not the same as plasma-rifle technology.

Plasma rifle technology is the stuff pretty much everyone has. Imperial STC, Eldar etc. It contains plasma then spits it out. Containment is the main difference between STC and Tau designs. The Tau aren't expendables and demand reliability from standard equipment. Frankly, that's a better technological philosophy than the AdMech has.

Plasma pulse technology converts ammunition into plasma and then fires it. It can be and is upscaled beyond that of man-portable weaponry. It is far more advanced, because it takes the concepts of plasma weaponry and that of mass accelerators to produce a weapon more powerful than a bolter yet easily mass produced like a lasgun. Oh, and they've also bolted a gyroscopic aim stabiliser and auto-aim features to that as well.

So yeah, the Tau have mastered Plasma weaponry, because they're not only able to construct plasma weapons, but they've applied the scientific principles to create a whole other class of weaponry around it.

The Tau are the most advanced race when it comes to what you could call the science of the Materium. However, the 40k Universe also contains the Immaterium, of which the Eldar are masters and which gives the Imperium an edge on the Tau in areas like FTL travel, teleportation etc. The Tau are catching up by the end of M41 though.

No Necrons are still better, which guess what! Means Tau aren't the most advanced.

So where is the rest of the Tau tech? They got plasma at MOST.

I'm getting really annoyed all these Tau players keep writing off Necrons, juuuuuuust a little, you may be able to tell that I like Necrons from that.

Quickjager wrote:
No Necrons are still better, which guess what! Means Tau aren't the most advanced.

So where is the rest of the Tau tech? They got plasma at MOST.

I'm getting really annoyed all these Tau players keep writing off Necrons, juuuuuuust a little, you may be able to tell that I like Necrons from that.

The Crons don't have anything the Tau are incapable of in theory, except the reality bending stuff which is best classed with warp-related subjects than the sciences, and of which the Eldar are the masters. Or they were, perhaps the Crons have more knowledge of the Immaterium now that Eldar civilisation is basically dumped on. Of course, execution does lend itself to the Necron cause in this regard. They have actually built utterly terrifying weapons, whereas the Tau may have the tech and know-how to do so, but haven't exploited it to its fullest yet.

The Tau are flat-earth atheists though, they'll never be capable of using warp-based tech at anywhere near the same level as the Eldar. Though that's perhaps an advantage considering humanity's problems with it and the fact the Eldar get their souls raped by a god of their own creation.

Oh yea Necrons don't got anything the Tau don't have ya know except

A complete understanding of physics and how to nullify the warp, ability to bend reality to their whims. You know have a little thing called the Celestial Orrey. Managed to trap and subdue the C'tan.

Please stop talking.

"How to nullify the warp" being a Warp-related study..

*rolls-eyes*

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
"How to nullify the warp" being a Warp-related study..

*rolls-eyes*

That a race of beings who can't even use the warp managed to figure out.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
It is far more advanced, because it takes the concepts of plasma weaponry and that of mass accelerators to produce a weapon more powerful than a bolter yet easily mass produced like a lasgun.

Where is it stated how easy it is to produce Pulse Rifles? Just because the Tau can outfit their comparatively small armies with it doesn't mean it's that easy to create.

The Crons don't have anything the Tau are incapable of in theory, except the reality bending stuff which is best classed with warp-related subjects than the sciences, and of which the Eldar are the masters

The Necrons have shown technology far beyond that of the Tau in multiple fields. You can't class their high end technology with Warp-technology because it simply doesn't use the Warp. All you can say is that it's essentially magic in a different way. A level the Tau show no indication of approaching. The Tau are also lacking in naval technology in general and most of that is science of the Materium. Actually most non-Eldar technology falls under science of the Materium.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Humanity created twenty demi gods in a single genetic experiment. It is routine in the imperium to take a 12 year old skin and bones kid dying of radiation sickness and transform him into a nine foot tall immortal unbelievably strong killing machine. On the other hand the Tau can't figure out a way to live past 40. So in genetics I'd say the imperium is way out front of everyone. Since the necrons could not extend their life span and the elves naturally live for thousands of years anyway.

DE can reincarnate themselves and have the secret to immortality. Vect and Lelith are not old, despite being 15,000 years old they have the bodies of young Eldar

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:


The Tau are the most advanced race when it comes to what you could call the science of the Materium. However, the 40k Universe also contains the Immaterium, of which the Eldar are masters and which gives the Imperium an edge on the Tau in areas like FTL travel, teleportation etc. The Tau are catching up by the end of M41 though.

No

The real masters of the materium are the C'tan. Like the warp denizens known as chaos "gods" Lord over the immaterium, the C'tan are the one youre looking forwhen its the other side of the mirror.
And the servants ( oldcron ) or former servants ( newcron ) are the Necrons.
Plus those Necrons conquered the Galaxy once. Against Psykers, against opposition who created whole species.
The Eldar are the servants of the old ones, along with Orks. Both didn't perform so well when left alone, Orks are uncontrollable now and Eldar ruined their own Empire because party.

The chance of archeotech dug out beiing of Necron or Eldar origin exists, but these aren't mistaken as of Human origin. Necron stuff is of interest since the Emperor found a C'tan ( or shard ) to inspire his tech staff. ( M 1 maybe ? ).
OtOH, the Galaxy is filled with the remnants of civilizations who didn't stand the test of time. Lots of ruins to excavate, so much still unknown, unexplored.

Best archeotech is also a question like best car, too much personal preferance going on.
IMHO Most interesting archeotech for Humans is usually from their own DAoT .

We can move on from Necrons with celestial orrary and call that done. (which is dumbs)

The Big E was in the process of making a web way gate on Terra before Horus's temper tantrum. so they almost would of been quickly catching up the space travel speed with at least eldar.

As for Tau they are still advancing (at least working on star bombz which it think is cool) but that doesn't necessary make it better than humes, the majority of there ammunition is still physical compared to the near everlasting las weaponry at least from a logistical postion. (though it doesn't effect them as much considering they dont travel out that much.)

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Who says it's not human?
Humanity has technology even now comparable to the other races. The only races actually more advanced at the moment are Eldar and Necron.
If the question is being asked, evidence to the contrary is what needs to be provided.

Lasguns and bolters instead of anything else.
Machine spirits instead of autonomous drones.
Treaded vehicles instead of skimmers.
Necron fleets routinely trash human fleets much, much larger than themselves.
Eldar are able to manipulate pathways that allow them to completely bypass traveling through the Warp.
The Tau strapped a starship weapon to a fighter plane in, at most, 2.5% of the time it took the AdMech to put metal plates over the cabling in Space Marine armor.

Humanities level of technology and what they can afford to put on their front line soliders are two very different things. Corruption, constant warfare, vast supply lines and that most of the IoM live on undeveloped worlds means that the IoM deploys very lightly equipped soliders who are often cheap

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Humans have scale. They build things really, really big. Big is not the same as advanced. A Tiger II tank is big. A Bradley is advanced. Conflict between the two ends when the Bradley destroys the other from beyond the other's range, after going across a river the Tiger II can't cross, at speeds the Tiger II can't match... which'd be the exact same if we replaced "Tiger II" with "Land Raider" and "Bradley" with "Falcon or Hammerhead."

What if the Tiger II costs 100 times less to build? What if the choice is between 100 Tiger IIs or 1 Bradley? What about 10k to 1? At some point quantity is a quality all it's own.

The IoM has manpower a plenty, abiet low skilled. What they do not have is a great manufacturing capacity overall(too few forge worlds compared to the number of worlds total) or enough money to buy everything they want. Sure in a total war scenerio you dont use money, but instead of a tax you have a tyth. If you ask for too much, a world will rebel. If 80% of the population is engadged in farming or supplying food and basic necessities to the population to just surrived you will have a hard time competing against another empire that only uses 1% of it's population.

Thus they use lasguns, not because that is the level of technology they possess but because they is what they can afford.


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THE HIVE MIND wrote:
How about we all agree that Nid tech is far superior. Better weaponry, the ability to constantly spawn more troops and the ability to alter soldiers to suit specific combat situations. Bio-tech is superior in every way

Just much worse in the energy efficiency department


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Spetulhu wrote:

THE HIVE MIND wrote:
How about we all agree that Nid tech is far superior.

It's actually one of the silliest scifi tropes in existence. Biological matter-to-energy conversion is crappy compared to tech, and having troops with fixed weapons is stupid in the extreme. They'll use more energy on getting something done than they can possibly gain from it. The only reason such a stupid race could have "eaten several galaxies" is if there was no moderately intelligent race to oppose them in any of those galaxies. The Milky Way will be their grave.

and that too.

The 'nids consume so much because they have to. They get so little out of it, so they have to eat more

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
No Necrons are still better, which guess what! Means Tau aren't the most advanced.

So where is the rest of the Tau tech? They got plasma at MOST.

I'm getting really annoyed all these Tau players keep writing off Necrons, juuuuuuust a little, you may be able to tell that I like Necrons from that.

The Crons don't have anything the Tau are incapable of in theory, except the reality bending stuff which is best classed with warp-related subjects than the sciences, and of which the Eldar are the masters. Or they were, perhaps the Crons have more knowledge of the Immaterium now that Eldar civilisation is basically dumped on. Of course, execution does lend itself to the Necron cause in this regard. They have actually built utterly terrifying weapons, whereas the Tau may have the tech and know-how to do so, but haven't exploited it to its fullest yet.

The Tau are flat-earth atheists though, they'll never be capable of using warp-based tech at anywhere near the same level as the Eldar. Though that's perhaps an advantage considering humanity's problems with it and the fact the Eldar get their souls raped by a god of their own creation.

The Necrons have mastered the art of scientific time-travel. The Tau have not demonstrated any capability in this direction what-so-ever. None. Not even an inkling of an attempt.

The Necrons have mastered hyper-phasic dimensional travel. The Tau have not indicated that they are even aware that this is possible.

The Necrons have mastered space-folding storage sciences, allowing them to create what is, basically, a Bag of Holding. The Tau have not demonstrated the most basic attempts at this, except maybe to try to fit fifty gallons of water into a ten gallon bucket... the Necrons can actually do this, no one else can.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
The Necrons have shown technology far beyond that of the Tau in multiple fields. You can't class their high end technology with Warp-technology because it simply doesn't use the Warp. All you can say is that it's essentially magic in a different way. A level the Tau show no indication of approaching. The Tau are also lacking in naval technology in general and most of that is science of the Materium. Actually most non-Eldar technology falls under science of the Materium.

Much of their high end technology designed to work through the warp in some manner, though not in the same way as the Eldar. Apart from most of it being utterly reality bending, it's quite easy to infer this because the warp is where their big-bad enemies were. Which means they had both the motivation to throw resources at warp-technology, and the opportunity to learn from an opponent who dwelled there. "It simply doesn't use the warp" isn't accurate, in fact we just don't know how they work work exactly, but being a result of researching the warp, fighting warp creatures and using it against them makes sense in the overall picture.

Tau naval technology? The Tau are behind on engines and don't believe in boarding unless it's absolutely necessary, that's about it. Contact with the Imperium is also upping their strategic thinking on space combat as well. It's not so much a scientific gap they need to close as opposed to an engineering and design philosophy one.

Which brings me to the Celestial Orrery. I have had a theory about this for a long time. The Necrons are manipulators of the warp, they use warp portals all the time to teleport. All they would need to do to cause a supernova is open up a small warp portal on a star, wait a bit, then close it. Doing so would strip the star of some of its mass, thus causing a supernova by reducing the gravity of the star relative to the force of its reaction. Not sure how you'd blow up a star otherwise, but that would certainly be an easy way in a universe with teleportation technology based on transitioning through the warp. They could just teleport a bit of the sun away, and voila, supernova. The Tau could do it if they had higher understanding of warp-tech. The supernova thing wouldn't be the problem, the galaxy-wide near-instantaneous communication to machines capable of causing supernovas would be; something that would be possible with warp manipulation.

Like another one of you said, the Necrons conquered the galaxy once before. The Orrery could have component parts all over the galaxy to aid it. Given how easily the Necrons seem to be able to manipulate the warp, something like the Orrery would be easy in terms of the science. Though it's also easy to see why there's only one of them, it would still be an enormous undertaking. Please note that Matt Ward is a heretic in love with throwaway passages that don't really mean much, though..

The C'Tan themselves would be masters of the Materium, but they're shards and didn't give the Necrons all the secrets to begin with. Unless the Aul Fella Wandering Through Space stole them somehow when the rebellion rolled into town.

Where is it stated how easy it is to produce Pulse Rifles? Just because the Tau can outfit their comparatively small armies with it doesn't mean it's that easy to create.

Don't be absurd, of course it's easy to create a pulse weapon for the Tau. They need to arm every Fire Warrior, which represents a significant section of their population, as well as billions of drones, battlesuits, aircraft, and even small starships with the things. If a pulse weapon was difficult to create, then they would use something more efficient. The Tau Empire may even have a larger proportion of its population under arms than the Imperium, which given the threats it faces and its society structure makes sense. Talking about "relatively small armies" in Imperial terms is silly, because it isn't the Imperium doing the manufacturing, the Tau don't have the breathing space to screw around with inefficiencies, and they're not tolerant of inefficiency anyway.

The Tau can make lasweapons. Bolters are hardly beyond them either. Nor are Imperial spec plasma rifles. They use plasma pulse weaponry. Evidently, they are easy enough to make to justify arming all their own forces AND some auxiliary forces with them. I would suspect they're probably more resource intensive to make. Can we point to plasma tech and say "that's why the Tau are more advanced" as the singular example? No. But they are more advanced where this is concerned. They understand the science, and they've applied it to create new weapons that they can pump out. The AdMech probably could as well if they pulled their head out of their arses and worked out the theories, but they don't.

Actually, the Necrons don't use the Warp to teleport. They use hyper-phasic dimensions or Dolmen Gates, which are sort of like a tech-based version of the Web-Way, but has been described in manners that the Web-Way has not been (being a tube of green light, rather than the scintillating colors of the Eldar Web-Way).

 Psienesis wrote:
Actually, the Necrons don't use the Warp to teleport. They use hyper-phasic dimensions or Dolmen Gates, which are sort of like a tech-based version of the Web-Way, but has been described in manners that the Web-Way has not been (being a tube of green light, rather than the scintillating colors of the Eldar Web-Way).

As far as I'm aware, they're still tunneling through the warp. If I'm wrong, by all means point me to a source!

Codex: Necrons, and the bajillion mentions they make of their various dimension-walking abilities, units, transports, travel methods and weapons.

Also, they note that the Daemons don't recognize these hyper-phasic dimensions as the Warp, calling them "new flavors of reality to corrupt".

 Psienesis wrote:
Codex: Necrons.

Does that say that Dolmen gates don't work via the warp?

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Codex: Necrons.

Does that say that Dolmen gates don't work via the warp?

It is implied, as Daemons don't ever come out of them (but can pursue them into it, finding new things to corrupt) and they never suffer Perils using them, nor are they ever inaccurate.

The 'nids consume so much because they have to. They get so little out of it, so they have to eat more

I like the theory that the Nids are on the run from something. Logically, they should otherwise keep the planets they conquers, and setup ecosystems to absorb the continual energy the sun produces. Or at least build some sort of orbital habitats. Stars produce tremendous amouns of energy, and plants are quite good at harnessing it. Instead, the Tyranids focus on harvesting the relatively small current biomass of a planet for short term consumption instead of just using it to process the endless supply of solar energy.

But it all makes sense if they are (as a species) running away from something worse, they wouldn't have time to sit around waiting for the plants to grow.

It would make some sense for the Tyranids to have some basic nuclear technology for heat at least. It's not paticularly complicated, since all you're doing is concentrating radioactive particles. It might be how they keep themselves warm over during interplanetary travel. A lot of animals use rocks in their digestion (gastroliths) to break down food, instead Tyranids might use uraniaum to keep warm.

 Psienesis wrote:

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Codex: Necrons.

Does that say that Dolmen gates don't work via the warp?

It is implied, as Daemons don't ever come out of them (but can pursue them into it, finding new things to corrupt) and they never suffer Perils using them, nor are they ever inaccurate.

It's implied or outright stated that the Necrons can stop the warp advancing into realspace on a galactic level, and so must have protections that make Geller Fields look like paper towels by comparison. Somehow, I don't think Daemons are getting through.

EDIT: Also, Crons aren't very tasty. No souls, see.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

Much of their high end technology designed to work through the warp in some manner, though not in the same way as the Eldar. Apart from most of it being utterly reality bending, it's quite easy to infer this because the warp is where their big-bad enemies were. Which means they had both the motivation to throw resources at warp-technology, and the opportunity to learn from an opponent who dwelled there. "It simply doesn't use the warp" isn't accurate, in fact we just don't know how they work work exactly, but being a result of researching the warp, fighting warp creatures and using it against them makes sense in the overall picture.

There is no evidence to suggest that. As far as I know Dolmen Gates were only used for some long ranged travel (essentially quickly moving an army to a point they were not previously established) via hacking into the Webway. Phasing out, the Celestial Orrery, living metal, Inertialess Drives, bio-transference itself, time travel, reading the future (through the stars!), mind shackle scarabs, deathmarks, pocket dimensions; none of them use(d) the Warp in anyway from what I've read.

Tau ships struggle to match the human ones and are certainly outmatched by Eldar and Necron vessels. Also some of the giant Orks ones.

The Celestial Orrery could have component parts. However considering the communication array of the Necrons decayed during their sleep I don't see why the Orrery would fare better without tending to.

For the Tau we have no idea what the Caste ratio is. The Tau selectively breed so it's possible that different Castes are constrained to different sizes. They also have far smaller supply lines and are able to consolidate their gains easier than the Imperium can (due to being continuously attacked in a lot of different locations. I

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Codex: Necrons.

Does that say that Dolmen gates don't work via the warp?

It is implied, as Daemons don't ever come out of them (but can pursue them into it, finding new things to corrupt) and they never suffer Perils using them, nor are they ever inaccurate.

It's implied or outright stated that the Necrons can stop the warp advancing into realspace on a galactic level, and so must have protections that make Geller Fields look like paper towels by comparison. Somehow, I don't think Daemons are getting through.

EDIT: Also, Crons aren't very tasty. No souls, see.

They do this via various devices, such as their pylons on Cadia. They're quite skilled at Warp-craft, which is pretty impressive for a race that never had psykers. They are also quite skilled at "mundane" sciences. In fact, far moreso than any other species in the galaxy before or since.

I would like to see evidence that the Tau understand what a Tesseract Labyrinth is and have the capabilities to produce one. Or a Mind Shackle Scarab. Or the Phase Out functionality. Or self-repairing buildings, vehicles and/or wargear on the scale and extremes that the Necrons demonstrate.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

There is no evidence to suggest that. As far as I know Dolmen Gates were only used for some long ranged travel (essentially quickly moving an army to a point they were not previously established) via hacking into the Webway. Phasing out, the Celestial Orrery, living metal, Inertialess Drives, bio-transference itself, time travel, reading the future (through the stars!), mind shackle scarabs, deathmarks, pocket dimensions; none of them use(d) the Warp in anyway from what I've read.

Tau ships struggle to match the human ones and are certainly outmatched by Eldar and Necron vessels. Also some of the giant Orks ones.

The Celestial Orrery could have component parts. However considering the communication array of the Necrons decayed during their sleep I don't see why the Orrery would fare better without tending to.

For the Tau we have no idea what the Caste ratio is. The Tau selectively breed so it's possible that different Castes are constrained to different sizes. They also have far smaller supply lines and are able to consolidate their gains easier than the Imperium can (due to being continuously attacked in a lot of different locations. I

There is significant circumstantial evidence and no evidence to contradict that Dolmen Gates use the warp. Also, the Webway is a set of permanent tunnels on the edge of the warp, so it would hardly be "not using the warp" to use the Webway, technically speaking.

Phasing out? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp. Almost gave you that one though.

Living metal? The Tau have nanite technology, "minidrones" I think the Farsight Supplement calls them. Also used to keep a bloke alive, rather ominiously.

Inertialess drives? Could just be well engineered dampeners built-in.

Bio-transference? There's a damned dead guy piloting one of Farsight's buddy-suits as an AI! Neural interfaces are how battlesuit pilots operate.

Time travel? Possible with warp manipulation.

Reading the future? Mathematics + time manipulation from the warp. The Eldar do the same thing, examining possible events through a psyker-based approach. Necrons probably just stick a computer in a warp bubble with a huge time differential and let it stew. Also, Wardite heresy.

Mind-shackle scarabs? See bio-transference. Tau could do it, just hasn't occurred to them because either they're too cute and fluffy or the Ethereals don't want competition.

Deathmarks? Inter-dimensional technology derived from studying the warp.




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Bollocks, I've just come to the conclusion that the Tau are the Necrons. Or cloned by the Eldar from Necrons.

This is not good.