Dysartes wrote: I think the core SM book precludes them from taking LIBRARIAN units, but that's about it. Given the two variants of Crusader Squads, I'm a little surprised they don't lose access to Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, Intercessors and Assault Intercessors.
Also, Togusa, you are familiar with what a Codex Supplement is, right?
Yes, I have it right here next to me...along with the worst insomnia I've ever had.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.
That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:
If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.
edit: got page number wrong, corrected
Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:
Spoiler:
Question, what is written in the actual supplement does not specify light or dense cover. It only says "Each time an enemy model makes an attack against this unit, this unit does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack."
Sure, but therein lies the problem. We have one page which says "does not receive the benefits of cover", which per the rulebook would mean no dense. We also have, as I just posted, a page that only specifies light and heavy, which means dense would be unaffected. Given that the latter explanation goes into greater detail than the former, I'd be inclined to say that Uphold the Honour of the Emperor only stops the use of light & heavy. Needs an FAQ either way.
Dysartes wrote: Given the two variants of Crusader Squads, I'm a little surprised they don't lose access to Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, Intercessors and Assault Intercessors.
Dysartes wrote: Given the two variants of Crusader Squads, I'm a little surprised they don't lose access to Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, Intercessors and Assault Intercessors.
Ok yeah, that is very strange IMO.
I could understand them keeping the access before this Supplement, but if there aren't any further restrictions in it, then it seems weird they would keep the units Crusader Squads appear to replace.
Dysartes wrote: I could understand them keeping the access before this Supplement, but if there aren't any further restrictions in it, then it seems weird they would keep the units Crusader Squads appear to replace.
BA and Wolves don't lose Vanguard Veterans either, though their SangGuard and WolfGuard are basically the replacement. So nothing new, actually.
Dysartes wrote: Given the two variants of Crusader Squads, I'm a little surprised they don't lose access to Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, Intercessors and Assault Intercessors.
Ok yeah, that is very strange IMO.
I could understand them keeping the access before this Supplement, but if there aren't any further restrictions in it, then it seems weird they would keep the units Crusader Squads appear to replace.
GW has spent the last decade of 40k keeping restrictions as low as possible. Restrictions are good for balance and theme, but supposedly not for sales.
It's also not something that inherently* gets them in trouble over acting against their propagated goals as it allows people just fine to restrict themselves to fitting units out of all the available options in order to Forge the Narrative (TM), thus putting any failure to follow the rules of the setting on the customers rather than themselves. So it's a pretty easy thing to do for them.
*until they think people take it too far and we end up with Scouts in Elite to rectify the situation because some cases of disregard for the lore mustn't be allowed, while most are just fine...
Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.
Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.
Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).
I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor - All models have a 5+ invul save. - Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail. - You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light. Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.
That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:
If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.
edit: got page number wrong, corrected
Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:
Spoiler:
Question, what is written in the actual supplement does not specify light or dense cover. It only says "Each time an enemy model makes an attack against this unit, this unit does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack."
Sure, but therein lies the problem. We have one page which says "does not receive the benefits of cover", which per the rulebook would mean no dense. We also have, as I just posted, a page that only specifies light and heavy, which means dense would be unaffected. Given that the latter explanation goes into greater detail than the former, I'd be inclined to say that Uphold the Honour of the Emperor only stops the use of light & heavy. Needs an FAQ either way.
But where did the light/dense page come from? The picture that quotes light/dense doesn't even look like the codex, are you sure that's even a real image and not someones troll picture? What I am reading which says neither came directly from the Codex Supplement, which is the final say, no?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.
Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).
I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.
Primaris Crusaders are only allowed Auto-bolt rifles.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.
That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:
If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.
edit: got page number wrong, corrected
Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:
Question, what is written in the actual supplement does not specify light or dense cover. It only says "Each time an enemy model makes an attack against this unit, this unit does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack."
Sure, but therein lies the problem. We have one page which says "does not receive the benefits of cover", which per the rulebook would mean no dense. We also have, as I just posted, a page that only specifies light and heavy, which means dense would be unaffected. Given that the latter explanation goes into greater detail than the former, I'd be inclined to say that Uphold the Honour of the Emperor only stops the use of light & heavy. Needs an FAQ either way.
But where did the light/dense page come from? The picture that quotes light/dense doesn't even look like the codex, are you sure that's even a real image and not someones troll picture? What I am reading which says neither came directly from the Codex Supplement, which is the final say, no?
I have the supplement in hand right now. The picture comes from the rules reference at the very end of the supplement, which summarises the major new abilities in dot point form.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.
That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:
If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.
edit: got page number wrong, corrected
Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:
Question, what is written in the actual supplement does not specify light or dense cover. It only says "Each time an enemy model makes an attack against this unit, this unit does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack."
Sure, but therein lies the problem. We have one page which says "does not receive the benefits of cover", which per the rulebook would mean no dense. We also have, as I just posted, a page that only specifies light and heavy, which means dense would be unaffected. Given that the latter explanation goes into greater detail than the former, I'd be inclined to say that Uphold the Honour of the Emperor only stops the use of light & heavy. Needs an FAQ either way.
But where did the light/dense page come from? The picture that quotes light/dense doesn't even look like the codex, are you sure that's even a real image and not someones troll picture? What I am reading which says neither came directly from the Codex Supplement, which is the final say, no?
I have the supplement in hand right now. The picture comes from the rules reference at the very end of the supplement, which summarises the major new abilities in dot point form.
Thanks! Literally didn't even see page 80. Interesting.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.
Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).
I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.
I hate this design direction. Once upon a time, armies that got special things lost access to other things.
'Whatever, have everything!' is terrible game design.
Worse, its not even consistent for space marine chapters (some lose quite a list of units), let alone everyone else.
I'm honestly surprised they kept the ban on librarians at this point (especially now that its clear they can get army-wide 5++ and keep dense cover benefits).
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.
Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).
I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.
I hate this design direction. Once upon a time, armies that got special things lost access to other things.
'Whatever, have everything!' is terrible game design.
Worse, its not even consistent for space marine chapters (some lose quite a list of units), let alone everyone else.
I'm honestly surprised they kept the ban on librarians at this point (especially now that its clear they can get army-wide 5++ and keep dense cover benefits).
Having access to tacs and actually taking them are 2 different things. Really not game breaking since this army barely adds any new units.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.
Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).
I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.
I hate this design direction. Once upon a time, armies that got special things lost access to other things.
'Whatever, have everything!' is terrible game design.
Worse, its not even consistent for space marine chapters (some lose quite a list of units), let alone everyone else.
I'm honestly surprised they kept the ban on librarians at this point (especially now that its clear they can get army-wide 5++ and keep dense cover benefits).
I'd just like to point out that for most of their existence Crusader Squads were able to have a heavy weapon - in fact for years their best build were 5-strong squads with a special and a heavy.
It's also not clear that they keep dense cover benefits. The summary of Uphold and rare rules sections saying different things is the exact opposite of clear.
Ok, I got the book in end and I've been reading and rereading to make sure I haven't missed something, but I still feel like I did because the explanation otherwise would make zero sens.
I'm very confused so I need confirmation.
The Primaris crusader squad says:
"All of he Primaris Neophytes in the unit can have their bolt pistol and Astartes chainword replaced with one of the following: 1 Astartes shotgun: 1 bolt carbine each."
Checking the stratagem I see one called Incendiary Shells (1CP) that increase the damage of shotguns for a unit to D2 for a phase.
Did GW literally made the shotgun (a weapon that is strangely absent from the crusader sprue and locked up instead on the upgrade sprue, taking way more space than it has any right there) a strictly weaker choice that can only be justified by the potential use of a stratagem?
Did the guy that wrote that thing did it just because the FB neophytes have access to the shotgun... but totally missed the point that they actually made some sens here because the FB Neophytes use Boltguns that have a significantly different profile (R24 Rapid Fire1 S4 AP0 D1).
Am I missing something or does that look like a pretty weird design choice?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.
Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).
I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.
I hate this design direction. Once upon a time, armies that got special things lost access to other things.
'Whatever, have everything!' is terrible game design.
Worse, its not even consistent for space marine chapters (some lose quite a list of units), let alone everyone else.
I'm honestly surprised they kept the ban on librarians at this point (especially now that its clear they can get army-wide 5++ and keep dense cover benefits).
I'd just like to point out that for most of their existence Crusader Squads were able to have a heavy weapon - in fact for years their best build were 5-strong squads with a special and a heavy.
It's also not clear that they keep dense cover benefits. The summary of Uphold and rare rules sections saying different things is the exact opposite of clear.
It is actually clear. Since the summary specifies which cover benefits apply, the rare rules clarification (which applies when cover benefits aren't specified) isn't necessary and doesn't apply.
As to the heavy weapon in 'most of their existence,' iirc they had to trade. They had to sack the heavy weapon for a power weapon or vice versa. Once again, to take something they had to actually give up something else.
@(HN)- its a very GW design choice.
A lot of things about the neophytes are weird. Equipped with chainswords they're just as good as the Initiates, and can benefit from any major buff you care to name (uphold...). The 'but thou must' approach to unit building (sgt, 5 inits and 4 neos) combines oddly with the fact that its actually an advantage to not pay full price for standard primaris. Really both the shotgun and the bolter are a downgrade, and GWoften doesn't know how to deal with those.
(HN) wrote: Ok, I got the book in end and I've been reading and rereading to make sure I haven't missed something, but I still feel like I did because the explanation otherwise would make zero sens.
I'm very confused so I need confirmation.
The Primaris crusader squad says:
"All of he Primaris Neophytes in the unit can have their bolt pistol and Astartes chainword replaced with one of the following: 1 Astartes shotgun: 1 bolt carbine each."
Checking the stratagem I see one called Incendiary Shells (1CP) that increase the damage of shotguns for a unit to D2 for a phase.
Did GW literally made the shotgun (a weapon that is strangely absent from the crusader sprue and locked up instead on the upgrade sprue, taking way more space than it has any right there) a strictly weaker choice that can only be justified by the potential use of a stratagem?
Did the guy that wrote that thing did it just because the FB neophytes have access to the shotgun... but totally missed the point that they actually made some sens here because the FB Neophytes use Boltguns that have a significantly different profile (R24 Rapid Fire1 S4 AP0 D1).
Am I missing something or does that look like a pretty weird design choice?
Gw making units/weapons that are worth only with stratagem isn't weird. It's the new mtg style game design tournament players wanted.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why would they give them the same damage profile, but one just has less range?
It’s established weapons with established profiles. It is strange that they have the same point value.
Voss wrote: @(HN)- its a very GW design choice.
A lot of things about the neophytes are weird. Equipped with chainswords they're just as good as the Initiates, and can benefit from any major buff you care to name (uphold...). The 'but thou must' approach to unit building (sgt, 5 inits and 4 neos) combines oddly with the fact that its actually an advantage to not pay full price for standard primaris. Really both the shotgun and the bolter are a downgrade, and GWoften doesn't know how to deal with those.
They could have made the shotgun cheaper, or just roll with the "NeW pRiMaRiS wEaPoN" thing they have been going for and just make it a different weapon.
The obvious shotgun profile should be something like R12 Assault 1, S5 AP1 D2, that way you have a weapon that "feels" like what you'd expect from a shotgun: short range, single shot, high damage. (or S6 and D1 if you feel like there's too many damage out there these days)
Or just give them the good old Bolter instead of thos Carbine (that weapon feels, like most primaris weapons, like a weird bloat on the weapon list of the marines).
tneva82 wrote: Gw making units/weapons that are worth only with stratagem isn't weird. It's the new mtg style game design tournament players wanted.
I'd honestly would be tempted to call it awful. If feels like crutch for poorly thought out stat lines.
It's frankly silly that a shotgun has the same stats (but with smaller range) than a bolt carbine that is itself just a "baby autobolt rifle" (same stat with -1 attack), ESPECIALLY when, as Voss pointed out, a mele neophyte is as good as a mele initiate anyway (different pistol, but very minor).
The weirdest part is how the neophytes must all have the same loadout, when the Initiate or even the FB neophytes can have mixed load out.
(and speaking of Neophytes... why have their special weapon only be either a pyre-blaster or fist when there's so many unused power swords and axes on the sprue? Having them as options too wouldn't have broken the datasheet and added the small amount of spice that unit needs when compared to its FB version.
Same for the outriders, giving them the option to take some power weapons wouldn't hurt (but that's more a primaris problem were they have been stripped bare of any options for no real good reasons).
Togusa wrote: Do we know yet when the rest of the kits are due for preorder? I found it strange they weren't up this week.
The army boxes are usually released several weeks before the regular version of the codex, combat patrol box and the other boxes. I would expect to see them towards the end of November.
Now having seen the Sword Brethren entry with my own eyes, it's another big *sigh* for GW's insistence on letting mono-pose builds influence the rules.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now having seen the Sword Brethren entry with my own eyes, it's another big *sigh* for GW's insistence on letting mono-pose builds influence the rules.
I fear for the Chaos Terminators' wargear in the future CSM Codex.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now having seen the Sword Brethren entry with my own eyes, it's another big *sigh* for GW's insistence on letting mono-pose builds influence the rules.
I fear for the Chaos Terminators' wargear in the future CSM Codex.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Really my biggest complaint about the box is the small amount of lore in the codex. They really could have beefed it up a few pages with more stories and background.
The models themselves are really good. Having the EC in hand, I dig the model as one of my new favourites.
From the looks the new Black Templar are really great. GW did an excellent Job with the aesthetics.
But what, at least for me, really sucks is that I hate Neophytes and to get Chain Weapons and Space Marines with Clothes i got to buy 3 Crusader Squads so i can get 15 Marines as Assault or normal Intercessors with Chain weapons.
And the new Upgrade Sprue doesnt even help with that, because it has no Weapons or Armor with Clothes to change the looks of your normal Intercessors.
I had hopes for something like the old Black Templar Squad where you got 10 Marines and could build them either with Bolters or Chainswords.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Ye idk why such hatred of the box... I love how they are making them more poseable, almost going back to the good old days..
and from what I see if starting to collect BT was a great buy ( I bought it because was great for me):
Even if don't like the old kit of the redemptor still saves $10 if buy retail (and every online store sells this from what I have seen so bigger savings?)
I really want to like the Primaris Sword Brethren when they come out...but apart from the vow thing and if make a squad of 10 and combat to what want but still, Bladeguard all the way???
Bladeguard really need to go to 2 wounds, its crazy for points...
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Interesting take. Mine would be literally the opposite, I've written that down at Spikey Bits, but here's a copy pasta
Spoiler:
I want also to say that I've been pretty disappointed in that BT box.
Got mine, and it's frankly shocking how "cheap" the thing felt.
It's very light despite being so big and for good reason, the cardoard is one of thos very thinn stock you'd get for a starter box rather than sturdier stuff boxes like Indomitus are made of and the interior plastic holder that keeps the book and sprues in place is slo thin that it got torn off by the book moving inside (which also slightly damaged the book itself).
And speaking of book, oh boy that was the biggest disappointment of all. Despite having more pages than the 3rd edition codex, it felt way emptier, with mostly meaningless padding inside and a clear lack of actual information.
Let’s just make a quick side by side comparison just to drive home how BAD things are nowadays compared to previously. (Wall of text incoming, you've been warned).
The 3rd ed codex is 66 page long, the 9th is 80.
The 3rd is a FULL codex that contains all the infos required to play the army (datasheet of ALL units in the marine army, the rules for the Space marine army, the full armory, etc etc) .
The 9th is a supplement that only contains the new units and gears and rule of the BT.
The 3rd is also way easier to use since it was from a time where ALL the info were listed on the datasheet, INCLUDING THE POINT COST.
The 9th follow the current egregious trend where the points aren’t listed on the datasheet and you have to flip at the end of the book to know how much a unit or even just the gear options cost, this is the worst.
The 3rd had a lore introduction of the army starting from the great crusade and covering the heresy, the aftermath, the second founding and then cover the chapter and the spacemarine basic (creation, training and weapon) lore.
The 9th cover only Era indomitus and the chapter.
The 3rd explains the lore of each units, Black Templar specific or not (Neohpyte, Initiate, Sword Brethren, High Marshal, Marshal & Castellan, Emperor Champion, Techmarine, Dreadnoughts, Apothecary, Chaplains)
The 9th only have a summary description that could fit on a tweet for the units that got a datasheet.
The 3rd gives you a recap of 5 Crusades
The 9th gives you a recap of 3 Crusades
The 3rd had a schematic of each units in their data sheet.
The 9th have just a photo of a mini
The 3rd had a half a page of lore with the other half used by a gorgeous illustration (that were used to make the new minies) for the characters
The 9th have a very, VERY short basic description of the character (helbretch gets a page somewhere else)
The 3rd was a time where the rules you needed to play an army weren’t so convoluted.
The “Space Marine army” rules take a page, the Black Templar Special rules take another, the Vows take 2 more pages (mostly because half the page is taken by fluff exemple of a vow).
The 9th is a good representation of the bloated mess that the edition is (and remember, this is just the SUPPLEMENT stuff you need on top of the base Space Marine stuff not included in the book).
2 page is taken for the stratagem, 1 page for the Litanies, 1 page for the Warlord traits, 2 pages for the Relics, 2 pages for the Relic Bearer, 1 page for the chapter approved rules.
7 Pages are taken for the Crusade rules (the game mode).
The most painfully obvious part for me was the colorsheme part of the book.
The 3rd had 1 page with the standard “space marine colorsheme template” (you know the one), showing clearly what colors a marine have, indicating what should be on their kneepad and what the shoulderpad of a Initiate, Assault Squard, Chaplain, Neophyte, Sword Breathren and Apothercay should look like with the full banner and heraldry of 6 crusades (and their quite lore summary).
It’s then followed by a “painting black Templars” page that details in a very efficient manner (like GW used to be able to do back in the day) ALL the colors used, how to apply transfers and a quick tips on a couple of stuff that could be useful (skin, parchment, how to paint the gold on the sword brethren weapons).
It’s then followed by 8 pages going through each and EVERY single unit with photographical example of how to paint them (all of them using upgrade sprue), 1 top /front/side/back page just for the Land Raider Crusader, 2 page for a whole army and 1 page for some showcase of cool conversation/paint/diorama.
The 9th… first of all the 9th just flat out retconned the colorscheme of the Black Templars, which is pretty astonishing tbh. Their weapons are now suddenly red and their chest emblem are now gold… which makes them look EXACTLY like the Deathwatch now. The sword brethren also lost their gold weapons.
Other than that they only show 3 shoulder pad variants “Command, Battleline & Fire Support”, “Veteran”, “Close Support” (good luck deciding which is which).
There is detailed pictures of the new primaris crusaders and sword brethren. A LOT of pictures of these new models.
6 pages of them, accompanied with other random stuff in the background (namely primaris tanks, primaris dread and some time intercessor or outriders) NONE of them using any Black Templar bits from the upgrade sprue (old or new) with the exception of the terminator and land raider crusader (which are the very same models present in the 3rd book) taking up 1 page, then there’s 1 more page for the the characters (Helbretch, Grimaldus, Emperor’s Champion, Castelan.
Strangely enough the pimped out castellan based on Jone Blanche is only visible in the background of the next 2 page spread army shot (which really reinforce my idea that this model was probably originaly meant to be this years 40k Games Day mini).
Want to know how to paint phobos black Templar? How to play Blade Guard (Should they get white helmpets like the terminators? What about the shield)? Agressors? Any of the many other Primaris units I forgot?
Do you just want to know what paint to get and how to use it? Welp, tough luck it’s not in that book.
And here comes the most important part I want to drive home: the EXTREME laziness and padding of that book. How could it have 14 more pages than the 3rd despite having way less content than it?
Welp here’s some simple examples:
3rd has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of miniature photos+ double page spread army)
- 4 full art pages,
- 8 pages that have around 50% art,
- 8 pages with 30% art.
Most datasheet pages contains 2 units with a detailed (and loreful) explanation of their skills.
9th has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of new miniature pictures + double page spread army),
- 9 full art page,
- 17 pages that have around 50% of their space used by art,
- 8 where some random art has been slapped at the bottom of the page and eats a good 30% of the page.
Each of the 6 datasheet occupy a full page, with the bare minimum text possible and usually with either a picture of the mini taking half the page or just left blank.
For some reasons the fantastic art piece from MG that were used to make the new Grimaldus and Helbrech are not used (or used as a de-saturated background image under text), this is just... weird.
3rd managed to have both the loreful version and rule version of the 4 vows on the same 2 pages WHILE having 2 pretty lengthy “lore quote” sections on thos pages.
And there’s so many, SO MANY wasted space in that book.
Page 4 and 7 are just small tiny lore paragraph written in ultra large gothic fonts, the most wordy pages detailing the crusade have a quarter of their space taken by odd illustration crop at the bottom of the pages, there’s a whole page that is literally just here to welcome you in the rule section, page 42 is literally an advert for the combat partrol box, the relic bearer rules takes two page when it could easily have taken 1 and still have space for some lore inserts (hell I just noticed they have been repeated IN FULL in the glossary on the last page, and they take about a third of a page max), there is SO MANY PICTURES of the same primaris crusader and sword brethren squad it’s not even bunny at this point.
And just to drive it home, 3rd end with a starmap showing where are some notable crusades and keeps, 9th just end on a glossary that repeat IN FULL the 2 pages vow content in less than a third of a page a couple of other stuff that have literally no reason to be there.
TLDR: This book just made me sad, because it really underlined how far down GW content went and the box itself felt empty and cheaply built and that's not even talking about the actual Black Templar Datasheet which are "strangely balanced" (read gak), like the cancerous "wargear option limited by sprue" for the sword breathren, the "shotgun<<carbin" for the noephyte, the fact that they somehow didn't thought to find a use to the 2 sets of power swords and axes in the crusader sprue outside of one of them being use by a sword bro (and you'll only use one of them if you build a 20man squad) apparentenly making axe and sword a special weapon like the first for the crusader squad totally went over GW head... (which is pretty funny when you remember that the sprue was such a focus when butchering the sword brethren gear option), they basically left the Land Raider crusader in the dust (apprently making a primaris exception for the crusader and sword breathren is still too much to ask, GW needs at least 4 edition to finally remove the stupid primaris restriction).
Am I happy to finally get some templar love? Sure!
But pretending it's perfect is just a bold faced lie, or a statement coming from someone with a pretty short term memory and very little standard.>
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Interesting take. Mine would be literally the opposite, I've written that down at Spikey Bits, but here's a copy pasta
Spoiler:
I want also to say that I've been pretty disappointed in that BT box.
Got mine, and it's frankly shocking how "cheap" the thing felt.
It's very light despite being so big and for good reason, the cardoard is one of thos very thinn stock you'd get for a starter box rather than sturdier stuff boxes like Indomitus are made of and the interior plastic holder that keeps the book and sprues in place is slo thin that it got torn off by the book moving inside (which also slightly damaged the book itself).
And speaking of book, oh boy that was the biggest disappointment of all. Despite having more pages than the 3rd edition codex, it felt way emptier, with mostly meaningless padding inside and a clear lack of actual information.
Let’s just make a quick side by side comparison just to drive home how BAD things are nowadays compared to previously. (Wall of text incoming, you've been warned).
The 3rd ed codex is 66 page long, the 9th is 80.
The 3rd is a FULL codex that contains all the infos required to play the army (datasheet of ALL units in the marine army, the rules for the Space marine army, the full armory, etc etc) .
The 9th is a supplement that only contains the new units and gears and rule of the BT.
The 3rd is also way easier to use since it was from a time where ALL the info were listed on the datasheet, INCLUDING THE POINT COST.
The 9th follow the current egregious trend where the points aren’t listed on the datasheet and you have to flip at the end of the book to know how much a unit or even just the gear options cost, this is the worst.
The 3rd had a lore introduction of the army starting from the great crusade and covering the heresy, the aftermath, the second founding and then cover the chapter and the spacemarine basic (creation, training and weapon) lore.
The 9th cover only Era indomitus and the chapter.
The 3rd explains the lore of each units, Black Templar specific or not (Neohpyte, Initiate, Sword Brethren, High Marshal, Marshal & Castellan, Emperor Champion, Techmarine, Dreadnoughts, Apothecary, Chaplains)
The 9th only have a summary description that could fit on a tweet for the units that got a datasheet.
The 3rd gives you a recap of 5 Crusades
The 9th gives you a recap of 3 Crusades
The 3rd had a schematic of each units in their data sheet.
The 9th have just a photo of a mini
The 3rd had a half a page of lore with the other half used by a gorgeous illustration (that were used to make the new minies) for the characters
The 9th have a very, VERY short basic description of the character (helbretch gets a page somewhere else)
The 3rd was a time where the rules you needed to play an army weren’t so convoluted.
The “Space Marine army” rules take a page, the Black Templar Special rules take another, the Vows take 2 more pages (mostly because half the page is taken by fluff exemple of a vow).
The 9th is a good representation of the bloated mess that the edition is (and remember, this is just the SUPPLEMENT stuff you need on top of the base Space Marine stuff not included in the book).
2 page is taken for the stratagem, 1 page for the Litanies, 1 page for the Warlord traits, 2 pages for the Relics, 2 pages for the Relic Bearer, 1 page for the chapter approved rules.
7 Pages are taken for the Crusade rules (the game mode).
The most painfully obvious part for me was the colorsheme part of the book.
The 3rd had 1 page with the standard “space marine colorsheme template” (you know the one), showing clearly what colors a marine have, indicating what should be on their kneepad and what the shoulderpad of a Initiate, Assault Squard, Chaplain, Neophyte, Sword Breathren and Apothercay should look like with the full banner and heraldry of 6 crusades (and their quite lore summary).
It’s then followed by a “painting black Templars” page that details in a very efficient manner (like GW used to be able to do back in the day) ALL the colors used, how to apply transfers and a quick tips on a couple of stuff that could be useful (skin, parchment, how to paint the gold on the sword brethren weapons).
It’s then followed by 8 pages going through each and EVERY single unit with photographical example of how to paint them (all of them using upgrade sprue), 1 top /front/side/back page just for the Land Raider Crusader, 2 page for a whole army and 1 page for some showcase of cool conversation/paint/diorama.
The 9th… first of all the 9th just flat out retconned the colorscheme of the Black Templars, which is pretty astonishing tbh. Their weapons are now suddenly red and their chest emblem are now gold… which makes them look EXACTLY like the Deathwatch now. The sword brethren also lost their gold weapons.
Other than that they only show 3 shoulder pad variants “Command, Battleline & Fire Support”, “Veteran”, “Close Support” (good luck deciding which is which).
There is detailed pictures of the new primaris crusaders and sword brethren. A LOT of pictures of these new models.
6 pages of them, accompanied with other random stuff in the background (namely primaris tanks, primaris dread and some time intercessor or outriders) NONE of them using any Black Templar bits from the upgrade sprue (old or new) with the exception of the terminator and land raider crusader (which are the very same models present in the 3rd book) taking up 1 page, then there’s 1 more page for the the characters (Helbretch, Grimaldus, Emperor’s Champion, Castelan.
Strangely enough the pimped out castellan based on Jone Blanche is only visible in the background of the next 2 page spread army shot (which really reinforce my idea that this model was probably originaly meant to be this years 40k Games Day mini).
Want to know how to paint phobos black Templar? How to play Blade Guard (Should they get white helmpets like the terminators? What about the shield)? Agressors? Any of the many other Primaris units I forgot?
Do you just want to know what paint to get and how to use it? Welp, tough luck it’s not in that book.
And here comes the most important part I want to drive home: the EXTREME laziness and padding of that book. How could it have 14 more pages than the 3rd despite having way less content than it?
Welp here’s some simple examples:
3rd has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of miniature photos+ double page spread army)
- 4 full art pages,
- 8 pages that have around 50% art,
- 8 pages with 30% art.
Most datasheet pages contains 2 units with a detailed (and loreful) explanation of their skills.
9th has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of new miniature pictures + double page spread army),
- 9 full art page,
- 17 pages that have around 50% of their space used by art,
- 8 where some random art has been slapped at the bottom of the page and eats a good 30% of the page.
Each of the 6 datasheet occupy a full page, with the bare minimum text possible and usually with either a picture of the mini taking half the page or just left blank.
For some reasons the fantastic art piece from MG that were used to make the new Grimaldus and Helbrech are not used (or used as a de-saturated background image under text), this is just... weird.
3rd managed to have both the loreful version and rule version of the 4 vows on the same 2 pages WHILE having 2 pretty lengthy “lore quote” sections on thos pages.
And there’s so many, SO MANY wasted space in that book.
Page 4 and 7 are just small tiny lore paragraph written in ultra large gothic fonts, the most wordy pages detailing the crusade have a quarter of their space taken by odd illustration crop at the bottom of the pages, there’s a whole page that is literally just here to welcome you in the rule section, page 42 is literally an advert for the combat partrol box, the relic bearer rules takes two page when it could easily have taken 1 and still have space for some lore inserts (hell I just noticed they have been repeated IN FULL in the glossary on the last page, and they take about a third of a page max), there is SO MANY PICTURES of the same primaris crusader and sword brethren squad it’s not even bunny at this point.
And just to drive it home, 3rd end with a starmap showing where are some notable crusades and keeps, 9th just end on a glossary that repeat IN FULL the 2 pages vow content in less than a third of a page a couple of other stuff that have literally no reason to be there.
TLDR: This book just made me sad, because it really underlined how far down GW content went and the box itself felt empty and cheaply built and that's not even talking about the actual Black Templar Datasheet which are "strangely balanced" (read gak), like the cancerous "wargear option limited by sprue" for the sword breathren, the "shotgun<<carbin" for the noephyte, the fact that they somehow didn't thought to find a use to the 2 sets of power swords and axes in the crusader sprue outside of one of them being use by a sword bro (and you'll only use one of them if you build a 20man squad) apparentenly making axe and sword a special weapon like the first for the crusader squad totally went over GW head... (which is pretty funny when you remember that the sprue was such a focus when butchering the sword brethren gear option), they basically left the Land Raider crusader in the dust (apprently making a primaris exception for the crusader and sword breathren is still too much to ask, GW needs at least 4 edition to finally remove the stupid primaris restriction).
Am I happy to finally get some templar love? Sure!
But pretending it's perfect is just a bold faced lie, or a statement coming from someone with a pretty short term memory and very little standard.>
Lol, did you see how they nerfed or sucked the life out of Deathwatch (or its essence) or everything in the past almost... That is how 9th is (the game where you don't interact with your opponent or your goal is to not get hurt)... I think taking that sucking drama into account BT still have flavour and maybe not the best, but have some teeth and will be fun to play.
Lol, did you see how they nerfed or sucked the life out of Deathwatch (or its essence) or everything in the past almost... That is how 9th is... I think taking that sucking drama into account BT still have flavour and maybe not the best, but have some teeth and will be fun to play.
Fun fact, my original plan (since I love to maximum the "your dude" factor on my minies) was to go with Deathwatch when they announced the codex. I was middly excited about it.
Then it dropped and what we got is the laziest abortion I've ever seen.
What makes the Deathwatch is the special and unique gear, special ammo and ultra customizable Kill Teams.
What did we got instead? A massive reduction in the special ammo rules, almost no effort to create "primaris deathwatch", overall pretty weak rules.
Hell, they couldn't even make a primaris watch master or something.
If they really are THAT cheap that they don't want to create new sprues for a kill team primaris, they just had to make a beefier upgrade sprue that contains the special weapons a primaris kill team would use.
So yeah, BT didn't have it nearly as bad but when your supposed main line unit that literally got new sprue is not worth taking over the standard gak and the "flavour" (ie crusader look) is nowhere to be found in the upgrade sprue and have to be found in the crusader box itself.... a box which have half its content used by neophytes you dont really give a gak about and can't really sell off (at least until 10th and the new primaris scout datasheet)... welp, it doesn't feel as good as it should have.
I think the Primaris Crusader Squad sucks for an entirely different reason (morale), but the models can be used so easily to give your army a BT feel, even if you go full Primaris.
One PCS sprue gives you enough bits to make 6 robed Marine bodies, got enough chained weapons for two MSU squads including upgrades for the leader (Assault or regular Intercessors).
Until Crusader squads are more attractive, I will use my models either as Assault Intercessors made up of 1 SB, 2 Initiates and 2 Neophytes and/or use those Neophytes as stand ins for Incursor and Infiltrator.
a_typical_hero wrote: I think the Primaris Crusader Squad sucks for an entirely different reason (morale), but the models can be used so easily to give your army a BT feel, even if you go full Primaris.
Sure... if you are willing to buy an already overpriced unit just to use only half of it.
a_typical_hero wrote: One PCS sprue gives you enough bits to make 6 robed Marine bodies, got enough chained weapons for two MSU squads including upgrades for the leader (Assault or regular Intercessors).
Assault AND regular Intercessors, not "or" which is also a pretty important point.
a_typical_hero wrote: Until Crusader squads are more attractive, I will use my models either as Assault Intercessors made up of 1 SB, 2 Initiates and 2 Neophytes and/or use those Neophytes as stand ins for Incursor and Infiltrator.
A small detail that will bother you (if you care enough about that kind of thing) is that crusader and assault intercessor don't even have the same markings, so using them interchangeably is midly annoying.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Interesting take. Mine would be literally the opposite, I've written that down at Spikey Bits, but here's a copy pasta
Spoiler:
I want also to say that I've been pretty disappointed in that BT box.
Got mine, and it's frankly shocking how "cheap" the thing felt.
It's very light despite being so big and for good reason, the cardoard is one of thos very thinn stock you'd get for a starter box rather than sturdier stuff boxes like Indomitus are made of and the interior plastic holder that keeps the book and sprues in place is slo thin that it got torn off by the book moving inside (which also slightly damaged the book itself).
And speaking of book, oh boy that was the biggest disappointment of all. Despite having more pages than the 3rd edition codex, it felt way emptier, with mostly meaningless padding inside and a clear lack of actual information.
Let’s just make a quick side by side comparison just to drive home how BAD things are nowadays compared to previously. (Wall of text incoming, you've been warned).
The 3rd ed codex is 66 page long, the 9th is 80.
The 3rd is a FULL codex that contains all the infos required to play the army (datasheet of ALL units in the marine army, the rules for the Space marine army, the full armory, etc etc) .
The 9th is a supplement that only contains the new units and gears and rule of the BT.
The 3rd is also way easier to use since it was from a time where ALL the info were listed on the datasheet, INCLUDING THE POINT COST.
The 9th follow the current egregious trend where the points aren’t listed on the datasheet and you have to flip at the end of the book to know how much a unit or even just the gear options cost, this is the worst.
The 3rd had a lore introduction of the army starting from the great crusade and covering the heresy, the aftermath, the second founding and then cover the chapter and the spacemarine basic (creation, training and weapon) lore.
The 9th cover only Era indomitus and the chapter.
The 3rd explains the lore of each units, Black Templar specific or not (Neohpyte, Initiate, Sword Brethren, High Marshal, Marshal & Castellan, Emperor Champion, Techmarine, Dreadnoughts, Apothecary, Chaplains)
The 9th only have a summary description that could fit on a tweet for the units that got a datasheet.
The 3rd gives you a recap of 5 Crusades
The 9th gives you a recap of 3 Crusades
The 3rd had a schematic of each units in their data sheet.
The 9th have just a photo of a mini
The 3rd had a half a page of lore with the other half used by a gorgeous illustration (that were used to make the new minies) for the characters
The 9th have a very, VERY short basic description of the character (helbretch gets a page somewhere else)
The 3rd was a time where the rules you needed to play an army weren’t so convoluted.
The “Space Marine army” rules take a page, the Black Templar Special rules take another, the Vows take 2 more pages (mostly because half the page is taken by fluff exemple of a vow).
The 9th is a good representation of the bloated mess that the edition is (and remember, this is just the SUPPLEMENT stuff you need on top of the base Space Marine stuff not included in the book).
2 page is taken for the stratagem, 1 page for the Litanies, 1 page for the Warlord traits, 2 pages for the Relics, 2 pages for the Relic Bearer, 1 page for the chapter approved rules.
7 Pages are taken for the Crusade rules (the game mode).
The most painfully obvious part for me was the colorsheme part of the book.
The 3rd had 1 page with the standard “space marine colorsheme template” (you know the one), showing clearly what colors a marine have, indicating what should be on their kneepad and what the shoulderpad of a Initiate, Assault Squard, Chaplain, Neophyte, Sword Breathren and Apothercay should look like with the full banner and heraldry of 6 crusades (and their quite lore summary).
It’s then followed by a “painting black Templars” page that details in a very efficient manner (like GW used to be able to do back in the day) ALL the colors used, how to apply transfers and a quick tips on a couple of stuff that could be useful (skin, parchment, how to paint the gold on the sword brethren weapons).
It’s then followed by 8 pages going through each and EVERY single unit with photographical example of how to paint them (all of them using upgrade sprue), 1 top /front/side/back page just for the Land Raider Crusader, 2 page for a whole army and 1 page for some showcase of cool conversation/paint/diorama.
The 9th… first of all the 9th just flat out retconned the colorscheme of the Black Templars, which is pretty astonishing tbh. Their weapons are now suddenly red and their chest emblem are now gold… which makes them look EXACTLY like the Deathwatch now. The sword brethren also lost their gold weapons.
Other than that they only show 3 shoulder pad variants “Command, Battleline & Fire Support”, “Veteran”, “Close Support” (good luck deciding which is which).
There is detailed pictures of the new primaris crusaders and sword brethren. A LOT of pictures of these new models.
6 pages of them, accompanied with other random stuff in the background (namely primaris tanks, primaris dread and some time intercessor or outriders) NONE of them using any Black Templar bits from the upgrade sprue (old or new) with the exception of the terminator and land raider crusader (which are the very same models present in the 3rd book) taking up 1 page, then there’s 1 more page for the the characters (Helbretch, Grimaldus, Emperor’s Champion, Castelan.
Strangely enough the pimped out castellan based on Jone Blanche is only visible in the background of the next 2 page spread army shot (which really reinforce my idea that this model was probably originaly meant to be this years 40k Games Day mini).
Want to know how to paint phobos black Templar? How to play Blade Guard (Should they get white helmpets like the terminators? What about the shield)? Agressors? Any of the many other Primaris units I forgot?
Do you just want to know what paint to get and how to use it? Welp, tough luck it’s not in that book.
And here comes the most important part I want to drive home: the EXTREME laziness and padding of that book. How could it have 14 more pages than the 3rd despite having way less content than it?
Welp here’s some simple examples:
3rd has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of miniature photos+ double page spread army)
- 4 full art pages,
- 8 pages that have around 50% art,
- 8 pages with 30% art.
Most datasheet pages contains 2 units with a detailed (and loreful) explanation of their skills.
9th has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of new miniature pictures + double page spread army),
- 9 full art page,
- 17 pages that have around 50% of their space used by art,
- 8 where some random art has been slapped at the bottom of the page and eats a good 30% of the page.
Each of the 6 datasheet occupy a full page, with the bare minimum text possible and usually with either a picture of the mini taking half the page or just left blank.
For some reasons the fantastic art piece from MG that were used to make the new Grimaldus and Helbrech are not used (or used as a de-saturated background image under text), this is just... weird.
3rd managed to have both the loreful version and rule version of the 4 vows on the same 2 pages WHILE having 2 pretty lengthy “lore quote” sections on thos pages.
And there’s so many, SO MANY wasted space in that book.
Page 4 and 7 are just small tiny lore paragraph written in ultra large gothic fonts, the most wordy pages detailing the crusade have a quarter of their space taken by odd illustration crop at the bottom of the pages, there’s a whole page that is literally just here to welcome you in the rule section, page 42 is literally an advert for the combat partrol box, the relic bearer rules takes two page when it could easily have taken 1 and still have space for some lore inserts (hell I just noticed they have been repeated IN FULL in the glossary on the last page, and they take about a third of a page max), there is SO MANY PICTURES of the same primaris crusader and sword brethren squad it’s not even bunny at this point.
And just to drive it home, 3rd end with a starmap showing where are some notable crusades and keeps, 9th just end on a glossary that repeat IN FULL the 2 pages vow content in less than a third of a page a couple of other stuff that have literally no reason to be there.
TLDR: This book just made me sad, because it really underlined how far down GW content went and the box itself felt empty and cheaply built and that's not even talking about the actual Black Templar Datasheet which are "strangely balanced" (read gak), like the cancerous "wargear option limited by sprue" for the sword breathren, the "shotgun<<carbin" for the noephyte, the fact that they somehow didn't thought to find a use to the 2 sets of power swords and axes in the crusader sprue outside of one of them being use by a sword bro (and you'll only use one of them if you build a 20man squad) apparentenly making axe and sword a special weapon like the first for the crusader squad totally went over GW head... (which is pretty funny when you remember that the sprue was such a focus when butchering the sword brethren gear option), they basically left the Land Raider crusader in the dust (apprently making a primaris exception for the crusader and sword breathren is still too much to ask, GW needs at least 4 edition to finally remove the stupid primaris restriction).
Am I happy to finally get some templar love? Sure!
But pretending it's perfect is just a bold faced lie, or a statement coming from someone with a pretty short term memory and very little standard.>
I never said it was perfect. I never said it had the same "value" as Indomitus regarding content.
You are right about the lack of content. About the rules I can't tell. But, as stated before and as a third ed. BT enthusiast, I still love this box, maybe even more than Indomitus. The latter was a bargain and full of pretty new models, but it missed the dark/gothic aesthetic that appeals me in Warhammer. I still have the old BT codex, sure it was more complete, but collection wise I prefer the new one.
After many years eating ultrasmurf everywhere, on every book, every boxes, months of tacticool phobos/lieutenant releases, even this "little supplement" and few miniatures makes me really happy. This is probably really personal, I get it and I can understand not everyone share the same advice. It still gives me good hope for upcoming xenos releases.
Please avoid being pedantic. Not everyone has the same expectations, this is not about memory or "little standard". And sorry for my weird english.
a_typical_hero wrote: Until Crusader squads are more attractive, I will use my models either as Assault Intercessors made up of 1 SB, 2 Initiates and 2 Neophytes and/or use those Neophytes as stand ins for Incursor and Infiltrator.
A small detail that will bother you (if you care enough about that kind of thing) is that crusader and assault intercessor don't even have the same markings, so using them interchangeably is midly annoying.
The supplement does actually address this; Black Templars aren't particularly uniform (e.g. not all Veterans/SB wear the red and black) so this isn't a particularly impactful detail.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Interesting take. Mine would be literally the opposite, I've written that down at Spikey Bits, but here's a copy pasta
Spoiler:
I want also to say that I've been pretty disappointed in that BT box.
Got mine, and it's frankly shocking how "cheap" the thing felt.
It's very light despite being so big and for good reason, the cardoard is one of thos very thinn stock you'd get for a starter box rather than sturdier stuff boxes like Indomitus are made of and the interior plastic holder that keeps the book and sprues in place is slo thin that it got torn off by the book moving inside (which also slightly damaged the book itself).
And speaking of book, oh boy that was the biggest disappointment of all. Despite having more pages than the 3rd edition codex, it felt way emptier, with mostly meaningless padding inside and a clear lack of actual information.
Let’s just make a quick side by side comparison just to drive home how BAD things are nowadays compared to previously. (Wall of text incoming, you've been warned).
The 3rd ed codex is 66 page long, the 9th is 80.
The 3rd is a FULL codex that contains all the infos required to play the army (datasheet of ALL units in the marine army, the rules for the Space marine army, the full armory, etc etc) .
The 9th is a supplement that only contains the new units and gears and rule of the BT.
The 3rd is also way easier to use since it was from a time where ALL the info were listed on the datasheet, INCLUDING THE POINT COST.
The 9th follow the current egregious trend where the points aren’t listed on the datasheet and you have to flip at the end of the book to know how much a unit or even just the gear options cost, this is the worst.
The 3rd had a lore introduction of the army starting from the great crusade and covering the heresy, the aftermath, the second founding and then cover the chapter and the spacemarine basic (creation, training and weapon) lore.
The 9th cover only Era indomitus and the chapter.
The 3rd explains the lore of each units, Black Templar specific or not (Neohpyte, Initiate, Sword Brethren, High Marshal, Marshal & Castellan, Emperor Champion, Techmarine, Dreadnoughts, Apothecary, Chaplains)
The 9th only have a summary description that could fit on a tweet for the units that got a datasheet.
The 3rd gives you a recap of 5 Crusades
The 9th gives you a recap of 3 Crusades
The 3rd had a schematic of each units in their data sheet.
The 9th have just a photo of a mini
The 3rd had a half a page of lore with the other half used by a gorgeous illustration (that were used to make the new minies) for the characters
The 9th have a very, VERY short basic description of the character (helbretch gets a page somewhere else)
The 3rd was a time where the rules you needed to play an army weren’t so convoluted.
The “Space Marine army” rules take a page, the Black Templar Special rules take another, the Vows take 2 more pages (mostly because half the page is taken by fluff exemple of a vow).
The 9th is a good representation of the bloated mess that the edition is (and remember, this is just the SUPPLEMENT stuff you need on top of the base Space Marine stuff not included in the book).
2 page is taken for the stratagem, 1 page for the Litanies, 1 page for the Warlord traits, 2 pages for the Relics, 2 pages for the Relic Bearer, 1 page for the chapter approved rules.
7 Pages are taken for the Crusade rules (the game mode).
The most painfully obvious part for me was the colorsheme part of the book.
The 3rd had 1 page with the standard “space marine colorsheme template” (you know the one), showing clearly what colors a marine have, indicating what should be on their kneepad and what the shoulderpad of a Initiate, Assault Squard, Chaplain, Neophyte, Sword Breathren and Apothercay should look like with the full banner and heraldry of 6 crusades (and their quite lore summary).
It’s then followed by a “painting black Templars” page that details in a very efficient manner (like GW used to be able to do back in the day) ALL the colors used, how to apply transfers and a quick tips on a couple of stuff that could be useful (skin, parchment, how to paint the gold on the sword brethren weapons).
It’s then followed by 8 pages going through each and EVERY single unit with photographical example of how to paint them (all of them using upgrade sprue), 1 top /front/side/back page just for the Land Raider Crusader, 2 page for a whole army and 1 page for some showcase of cool conversation/paint/diorama.
The 9th… first of all the 9th just flat out retconned the colorscheme of the Black Templars, which is pretty astonishing tbh. Their weapons are now suddenly red and their chest emblem are now gold… which makes them look EXACTLY like the Deathwatch now. The sword brethren also lost their gold weapons.
Other than that they only show 3 shoulder pad variants “Command, Battleline & Fire Support”, “Veteran”, “Close Support” (good luck deciding which is which).
There is detailed pictures of the new primaris crusaders and sword brethren. A LOT of pictures of these new models.
6 pages of them, accompanied with other random stuff in the background (namely primaris tanks, primaris dread and some time intercessor or outriders) NONE of them using any Black Templar bits from the upgrade sprue (old or new) with the exception of the terminator and land raider crusader (which are the very same models present in the 3rd book) taking up 1 page, then there’s 1 more page for the the characters (Helbretch, Grimaldus, Emperor’s Champion, Castelan.
Strangely enough the pimped out castellan based on Jone Blanche is only visible in the background of the next 2 page spread army shot (which really reinforce my idea that this model was probably originaly meant to be this years 40k Games Day mini).
Want to know how to paint phobos black Templar? How to play Blade Guard (Should they get white helmpets like the terminators? What about the shield)? Agressors? Any of the many other Primaris units I forgot?
Do you just want to know what paint to get and how to use it? Welp, tough luck it’s not in that book.
And here comes the most important part I want to drive home: the EXTREME laziness and padding of that book. How could it have 14 more pages than the 3rd despite having way less content than it?
Welp here’s some simple examples:
3rd has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of miniature photos+ double page spread army)
- 4 full art pages,
- 8 pages that have around 50% art,
- 8 pages with 30% art.
Most datasheet pages contains 2 units with a detailed (and loreful) explanation of their skills.
9th has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of new miniature pictures + double page spread army),
- 9 full art page,
- 17 pages that have around 50% of their space used by art,
- 8 where some random art has been slapped at the bottom of the page and eats a good 30% of the page.
Each of the 6 datasheet occupy a full page, with the bare minimum text possible and usually with either a picture of the mini taking half the page or just left blank.
For some reasons the fantastic art piece from MG that were used to make the new Grimaldus and Helbrech are not used (or used as a de-saturated background image under text), this is just... weird.
3rd managed to have both the loreful version and rule version of the 4 vows on the same 2 pages WHILE having 2 pretty lengthy “lore quote” sections on thos pages.
And there’s so many, SO MANY wasted space in that book.
Page 4 and 7 are just small tiny lore paragraph written in ultra large gothic fonts, the most wordy pages detailing the crusade have a quarter of their space taken by odd illustration crop at the bottom of the pages, there’s a whole page that is literally just here to welcome you in the rule section, page 42 is literally an advert for the combat partrol box, the relic bearer rules takes two page when it could easily have taken 1 and still have space for some lore inserts (hell I just noticed they have been repeated IN FULL in the glossary on the last page, and they take about a third of a page max), there is SO MANY PICTURES of the same primaris crusader and sword brethren squad it’s not even bunny at this point.
And just to drive it home, 3rd end with a starmap showing where are some notable crusades and keeps, 9th just end on a glossary that repeat IN FULL the 2 pages vow content in less than a third of a page a couple of other stuff that have literally no reason to be there.
TLDR: This book just made me sad, because it really underlined how far down GW content went and the box itself felt empty and cheaply built and that's not even talking about the actual Black Templar Datasheet which are "strangely balanced" (read gak), like the cancerous "wargear option limited by sprue" for the sword breathren, the "shotgun<<carbin" for the noephyte, the fact that they somehow didn't thought to find a use to the 2 sets of power swords and axes in the crusader sprue outside of one of them being use by a sword bro (and you'll only use one of them if you build a 20man squad) apparentenly making axe and sword a special weapon like the first for the crusader squad totally went over GW head... (which is pretty funny when you remember that the sprue was such a focus when butchering the sword brethren gear option), they basically left the Land Raider crusader in the dust (apprently making a primaris exception for the crusader and sword breathren is still too much to ask, GW needs at least 4 edition to finally remove the stupid primaris restriction).
Am I happy to finally get some templar love? Sure!
But pretending it's perfect is just a bold faced lie, or a statement coming from someone with a pretty short term memory and very little standard.>
I never said it was perfect. I never said it had the same "value" as Indomitus regarding content.
You are right about the lack of content. About the rules I can't tell. But, as stated before and as a third ed. BT enthusiast, I still love this box, maybe even more than Indomitus. The latter was a bargain and full of pretty new models, but it missed the dark/gothic aesthetic that appeals me in Warhammer. I still have the old BT codex, sure it was more complete, but collection wise I prefer the new one.
After many years eating ultrasmurf everywhere, on every book, every boxes, months of tacticool phobos/lieutenant releases, even this "little supplement" and few miniatures makes me really happy. This is probably really personal, I get it and I can understand not everyone share the same advice. It still gives me good hope for upcoming xenos releases.
Please avoid being pedantic. Not everyone has the same expectations, this is not about memory or "little standard". And sorry for my weird english.
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
And well, 199$ worth of models according to GW. By any sane person or even Past GW's standards it would be like... 120$ at best. 40$ for a squad of 10 Marines, 40$ for a Dread and 40$ for two Characters, 20$ each.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: What savings lmao it's 199$ for 199$ worth of miniatures and some paper waste you'll be able to get for free soon enough if you know where to look.
Even by your stand point your still not understanding basic personal preferences... some people may want it now, by the official channels and dont consider the content trash... So yes different people value different things.
What makes the Deathwatch is the special and unique gear, special ammo and ultra customizable Kill Teams.
What did we got instead? A massive reduction in the special ammo rules, almost no effort to create "primaris deathwatch", overall pretty weak rules.
Hell, they couldn't even make a primaris watch master or something.
If they really are THAT cheap that they don't want to create new sprues for a kill team primaris, they just had to make a beefier upgrade sprue that contains the special weapons a primaris kill team would use.
Not to derail the BT thread here, but the new Deathwatch Strikeforce is pretty much exactly what you are describing here. Emphasis on kill teams, customizable approach to the game with manipulation of doctrines and chapter tactic choices. SIA (sort of) in a couple of strats that Primaris can use.
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
If anyone, a random guy with 20 posts, saying this is a good box with good value is the one more likely to be a troll.
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
If anyone, a random guy with 20 posts, saying this is a good box with good value is the one more likely to be a troll.
Except the guy never said anything of good value.
He said he is happy that BT got a new box which has stuff in it that represents Black Templars. Let a man enjoy their Black Templar.
And this is the second time, in the same thread afaik, you saying that someone with a low post count is more likely to be a troll.
Will I be number 3 now?
From the the pages i read here the only thing you do is complain. I get it, GW is bad, and they really hurt you, but how about you shut up and get out. Idk why you are even still here, except to gak on anyone who says anything remotely good about this BT release.
Just want to chime in with my now 1112 post count to say that I enjoy the box' contents and I'm happy to own all of the things inside. Maybe not the datacards, but whatever
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
If anyone, a random guy with 20 posts, saying this is a good box with good value is the one more likely to be a troll.
Except the guy never said anything of good value.
He said he is happy that BT got a new box which has stuff in it that represents Black Templars. Let a man enjoy their Black Templar.
And this is the second time, in the same thread afaik, you saying that someone with a low post count is more likely to be a troll.
Will I be number 3 now?
From the the pages i read here the only thing you do is complain. I get it, GW is bad, and they really hurt you, but how about you shut up and get out. Idk why you are even still here, except to gak on anyone who says anything remotely good about this BT release.
I find the ignore function has noticeably increased my enjoyment of this forum
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
If anyone, a random guy with 20 posts, saying this is a good box with good value is the one more likely to be a troll.
Except the guy never said anything of good value.
He said he is happy that BT got a new box which has stuff in it that represents Black Templars. Let a man enjoy their Black Templar.
And this is the second time, in the same thread afaik, you saying that someone with a low post count is more likely to be a troll.
Will I be number 3 now?
From the the pages i read here the only thing you do is complain. I get it, GW is bad, and they really hurt you, but how about you shut up and get out. Idk why you are even still here, except to gak on anyone who says anything remotely good about this BT release.
I find the ignore function has noticeably increased my enjoyment of this forum
Very true, unfortunately people keep quoting and engaging the real trolls.
I never said it was perfect. I never said it had the same "value" as Indomitus regarding content.
I’ve never said you said that tho.
You said the box is amazing and I disagreed on that while explaining why.
You said the sprues are generous and I disagree (it would have been true if that sprue didn’t come with the mandatory neohpytes (neophytes that only have 2 poses btw)).
you said the codex is a piece of art and I think I went into a LOT of detail on why that’s clearly not the case.
You said everything is above what you hoped for the upgrade (I guess you are talking about the upgrade sprue) and here too I’ll have to hard disagree.
I’ve already talked about it ealier on that thread but basically that sprue is (like the rest) very lacking compared to 3rd ed stuff, and just bad objectively when looked on its own:
- only 2 helmets, 1 of them being a pretty ugly relic
- The shoulder pads are once again that very generic and bland “fresh of factory with just the chapter icon stamped on it”
- No chained weapons,
- No chest pieces
-A good chunk of the sprue is taken by unmarked scout shotguns that have NOTHING to do here,
- No vehicle bits (outside of a weapons that should be baseline)
- etc , etc etc
Basically that upgrade sprue doesn’t do it job, it doesn’t let you turn you standard marine into something that look like a BT. For that you’ll have to buy crusader sprues and ditch half of them because they contain the neophytes.
You said this box is all you’ve been dreaming of for years and to that I have nothing to say, because that’s just you and I can’t really say anything about it, you do you, but what I can do is just laying down simple facts to put into context what that box is REALLY compared to what you are trying to pass it as.
sigismund22 wrote: Please avoid being pedantic. Not everyone has the same expectations, this is not about memory or "little standard". And sorry for my weird english.
I'm not being pedantic, I'm just laying out some very simple facts based on very simple comparisons, just because YOU decided to love that box purely based on nostalgia value doesn't mean everyone will have automatically to agree with you (nor anyone have to automatically agree with me either btw, that's the beauty of a forum, we are just here to share our takes on stuff).
NAVARRO wrote: In this case you can love this box for the savings etc or you can hate it if your expectations were different.
Nah, I don’t buy that kind of extreme relativism "everything is subjective" mindset. There's a objective value here, and it's not that good. The book content is of very OBJECTIVLY poor.
Your feelings about it are the subjective part. You could like or hate it anyway, that's your opinion, but the facts are that this is a frankly poorly edited, vacuous book that somehow managed to contain way, WAY less content than a previous one that had 15 less pages.
NAVARRO wrote: ISold out right? So another hit for GW. That is what it boils down to.
That's the funny thing. It's not sold out, go check the site it's still there next to Dominion on the pile of "didn't sold as well as we thought" box.
And the obvious reason is that the value wasn't there for the price asked.
And this is the second time, in the same thread afaik, you saying that someone with a low post count is more likely to be a troll.
Will I be number 3 now?
Funilly enough I was the previous target of that frankly stupid attack.
HeIlsing wrote: From the the pages i read here the only thing you do is complain. I get it, GW is bad, and they really hurt you, but how about you shut up and get out. Idk why you are even still here, except to gak on anyone who says anything remotely good about this BT release.
The man is free to express is opinion just like Sigismund is, telling the people you disagree with to just leave is the best way to end up with a pretty stupid echo chamber. If you don’t like it, just don’t read it.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I find the ignore function has noticeably increased my enjoyment of this forum
What? just checked again and still says no longer available online?
As for extreme relativism and your definitions of objective I loved them...
Why would you assume everyone wants your definition of better value by comparison with the previous book? why you assume previous book was better value for everyone because It had more things you like? I mean We can be here all day comparing things and get no where.
I can compare it with the hell I want and come up with different results cause you know its a damn silly beer and pretzel rulebook for a silly game created to sell minis.
As such It may not be for me because I really dont need it but I understand people wanting a simple book for their faction of choice and being satisfied with it. Just let people enjoy the things they like.
I never said he is not free to express an opinion, but at first he would have to do so.
Would I tell him to leave if its a "real" discussion about something? No.
Using half the time attesting other people being a troll and the other half putting words in other peoples mouth is not expressing an opinion.
There is nothing to agree or disagree on, if you write gak like this.
The only take of his I could get is that GW is overpriced. Thats an opinion, and I do agree, yet i still enjoy the stuff.
What I am going to do is using the best advice anyone can give. Use the ignore button.
I never said it was perfect. I never said it had the same "value" as Indomitus regarding content.
I’ve never said you said that tho.
It was a bit confusing, but thanks for clarifying.
(HN) wrote: You said the box is amazing and I disagreed on that while explaining why.
You said the sprues are generous and I disagree (it would have been true if that sprue didn’t come with the mandatory neohpytes (neophytes that only have 2 poses btw)).
I mean, regarding existing sprues, keeping in mind that BT is a sub faction, I think they are decent enough (for example, the recent Beast Snagga army box was really weak regarding options). The only 3 crusaders bodies allows many options and I was afraid of only monopose. I'm still a bit disappointed about neophyte variation indeed, they deserved another specific sprue. Ideally, GW would have make a neophytes sprue with 4 differents bodies and shotguns included. And a 5 crusaders sprues that can be doubled. But I was expecting something worse tbh.
(HN) wrote: you said the codex is a piece of art and I think I went into a LOT of detail on why that’s clearly not the case.
Your comments about the book were on point and I didn't contest any of that. I find it really pleasant and beautiful though, as stated before this is totally subjective. However, there was passion put in its creation and it can be appreciated. Maxime Corbeil had a really good influence on it I guess.
(HN) wrote: You said everything is above what you hoped for the upgrade (I guess you are talking about the upgrade sprue) and here too I’ll have to hard disagree.
I was only talking about the box that I recently opened.
(HN) wrote: You said this box is all you’ve been dreaming of for years and to that I have nothing to say, because that’s just you and I can’t really say anything about it, you do you, but what I can do is just laying down simple facts to put into context what that box is REALLY compared to what you are trying to pass it as.
I'm not trying anything, I was sharing some enjoyment in a topic full of salt. Enjoyment is whats makes a hobby a hobby.
(HN) wrote: I'm not being pedantic, I'm just laying out some very simple facts based on very simple comparisons, just because YOU decided to love that box purely based on nostalgia value doesn't mean everyone will have automatically to agree with you (nor anyone have to automatically agree with me either btw, that's the beauty of a forum, we are just here to share our takes on stuff).
Talking about low standard sounded a bit insulting, but glad to know it wasn't your intention. Neither was I expecting everyone to agree, quite the opposite in fact. I said before that it was really personal.
My first message was meant to be read as "Despite every negative thing that had been said about the box, for good reason mostly, I still enjoy it". I wasn't expecting hostility, though I appreciate sharing different advice.
NAVARRO wrote: What? just checked again and still says no longer available online?
Yaknow that stocks depend on country right?
Check US and CA still have it up to this day, and the rest of the counties had it far pat the preoder period.
NAVARRO wrote: As for extreme relativism and your definitions of objective I loved them...
Why would you assume everyone wants your definition of better value by comparison with the previous book? why you assume previous book was better value for everyone because It had more things you like? I mean We can be here all day comparing things and get no where.
I can compare it with the hell I want and come up with different results cause you know its a damn silly beer and pretzel rulebook for a silly game created to sell minis.
Oof. Talk about missing the point and not knowing what "objective reality" mean.
Have you even read my post where I least objective facts about the two books?
My opinion is that the 3rd ed book is miles better on every aspect outside of maybe very superficial visual level (I mean, the 9td book is almost half illstration so it has to "look" a little better).
The objective facts that have nothing to do with my opinion is that the book is poorly edited and contain factually less stuff than the 3rd.
NAVARRO wrote: As such It may not be for me because I really dont need it but I understand people wanting a simple book for their faction of choice and being satisfied with it. Just let people enjoy the things they like.
Again (crazy how people like you seem to have a hard time getting very simple facts) I'm not preventing everyone from enjoying anything. I'm not going in their home, slapping the book off their hand, kicking their dog and fething their wives while yelling "YOU CAN'T ENJOY IT!" I'm just doing what they do, comment on the quality of the stuff, but I'm trying to do it with just a little bit of standard and objectivity rather than just saying "it's better than nothing" or "I like it because I like it".
I honest dont care if you like it or not, that was never the point. The point is that I wont let people run around trying to pretend this is the best book ever and everyone should rejoice, when its not. It's an objectively mediocre book from the rule, lore, edition, content, hobby point of view.
They two vow pages that repeats are the perfect example of that, and the fact that they used 80% of the photo space to show only the 2 new kits rather than showing us how to pain a BT army is another one.
I mean, regarding existing sprues, keeping in mind that BT is a sub faction, I think they are decent enough (for example, the recent Beast Snagga army box was really weak regarding options). The only 3 crusaders bodies allows many options and I was afraid of only monopose. I'm still a bit disappointed about neophyte variation indeed, they deserved another specific sprue. Ideally, GW would have make a neophytes sprue with 4 differents bodies and shotguns included. And a 5 crusaders sprues that can be doubled. But I was expecting something worse tbh.
See that’s the problem, its your frame of reference. If you take the worst as reference, OFC anything will be better.
I was too fully expecting the crusader squad to be the same than the new boys squad, a fully monopose sprue that don’t allow for ANY customization outside of sergeant and the special weapon, with a garbage incompleate gear option that makes the thing unplayable.
I was very relive to constat that it wasn’t the case, but that doesn’t mean I’d suddenly pretend this box is the best thing ever, because it’s not.
Better than what could have happen, sure, but still not good enough.
As you said, there should have been two boxes, one for neophytes (that contain the shotgun) and one for initiate (that would have been very useful as a “real” upgrade sprue for the rest of the army.
Your comments about the book were on point and I didn't contest any of that. I find it really pleasant and beautiful though, as stated before this is totally subjective. However, there was passion put in its creation and it can be appreciated. Maxime Corbeil had a really good influence on it I guess.
Call me petty and salty, but when I see that repeat of the vow page, or the fact that they couldn’t be bother to paint even just a blade guard unit (yaknow, the thing that is flat out better than the new swordbreathren) to show us how they should look (I’ll be painting mines like terminators, white helemets, gold weapons), or the fact that they somehow decided to retcon the Templar colorsheme out of nowhere for no other reason then “shrug, I dunno”… well, I have a hard time believing any passion was put in there.
They basically copied what the 3rd ed book did, but they did it worse which shouldn’t be acceptable.
I'm not trying anything; I was sharing some enjoyment in a topic full of salt. Enjoyment is what makes a hobby a hobby.
Sure, but what you do at the same time is being complaisant, and complaisance is what kills the hobby, especially these days where GW is constantly trying to lower the bar of what we should expect.
My first message was meant to be read as "Despite every negative thing that had been said about the box, for good reason mostly, I still enjoy it". I wasn't expecting hostility, though I appreciate sharing different advice.
This wasn’t meant as hostility, just simple disagreement, and shouldn’t be taken personally.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Some people don’t seem to know the difference between disagreeing and trying to prove that their opinion is the only correct opinion
Some people seem to think that making snooty remark makes them somehow look smart rather than petty bitches.
Just to refresh people's memory- the BT box is 199$ and contains 13 models, including 1 walker, and an 80-page book and some cards.
One year ago, for $199 for warhammer 40k you could've purchased another LE-only box.
That one had 61 miniatures, including 3 bikes and 1 walker and a 386 page book plus a quickstart guide.
So yeaaaah, I am not sure how anyone can look at this and think "this is VALUE". It might be standar GW fare, but GW shown what real value looks like...and 13 models for 200 bucks ain't that.
(HN) wrote: It's an objectively mediocre book from the rule, lore, edition, content, hobby point of view.
I don't think you understand what "objectively" means.
Oh no no, I do.
That's why I'm able to put two books next to eachothers and compare them like a normal human behind that can compare stuff.
No, you clearly do not. Comparing and contrasting two products with an arbitrary set of criteria that you've cobbled together in a comment section may produce a convincing argument which contains some salient points, but it does not mean that your verdict is objectively correct, and throwing "objectively" into every second sentence doesn't make you sound smart. It makes you sound like a first year undergrad desperate to attain some kind of authority.
(HN) wrote: I hope you'll reach that point one day too.
That you reflexively resorted to childishness when I didn't say I disagreed with your opinion speaks volumes about your mental capacity. Stick to the comment section on SpikeyBits.
Kanluwen wrote: That one was also a "starting the game" set, which across basically any spectrum of miniatures is always code for "loss leader".
Ok, and? It was a set, published by GW, that had 61 models for the same price as a set also published by GW that has 13 models. What do I care how GW classifies those releases? I could get 61 models or 13 models for 200 dollars, I know which deal I want. Hell, take out the necron part and you're still left with 24 marine models, almost 2x the content of this box for the same price.
Cool, now do the part where those are models you might actually want.
Value's something that can be quantified both subjectively (I wouldn't care for a $500 for $200 set of Marines if it's all Space Wolf iconography, for example) and objectively ($200 is cheaper than $500).
Indomitus was a great deal. There's no denying that. But it also was only available last year. It's a nonentity as far as new players go, and for someone who wants to play Black Templars and wants to start with this set...this set might be better in their eyes.
No, you clearly do not. Comparing and contrasting two products with an arbitrary set of criteria that you've cobbled together in a comment section may produce a convincing argument which contains some salient points, but it does not mean that your verdict is objectively correct, and throwing "objectively" into every second sentence doesn't make you sound smart. It makes you sound like a first year undergrad desperate to attain some kind of authority.
Gotha love how you try to reframe me comparing the book point by point on every section and aspect as "an arbitrary set of criteria that you've cobbled together in a comment section", it really hilight how clueless or just outright stupid you are.
What I did was open both book on my desk (because I have both book) and go trough it section by section.
In every single section or aspect the book was numerically and qualitatively inferior to the 3rd one.
This is couldn't be more objective of a process.
You may not like the result, but to be honest I couldn't give less of a feth about what you think since its pretty clear that you aren't really playing with a full set of card.
(HN) wrote: That you reflexively resorted to childishness when I didn't say I disagreed with your opinion speaks volumes about your mental capacity. Stick to the comment section on SpikeyBits.
Again, nice attempt at reframing and gaslighting.
What you did is say that I'm talking out of my ass and don't know what objectivity is, while clearly showing that you are literally too dumb to even know what I did, so ofc I'll answer in kind, just be a man and dont try to pull the victim card.
And that cute little jab at spikeybits is very cute, gotha love when a basement dweller from a random site is better than another random site, I guess that distaste from outside of your little box passes as a virtue in a shrunk mind like yours.
Galas wrote: I have to say that I have been underwhelmed by 9th books from a fluff perspective.
Just the removal of the unit "bestiary", my favourite part of any book , has made me not buy any 9th edition codex.
Just remember, you can't say removing that part is objectively a bad thing apparently, mister bigbrain have decided so.
Cronch wrote: Just to refresh people's memory- the BT box is 199$ and contains 13 models, including 1 walker, and an 80-page book and some cards.
One year ago, for $199 for warhammer 40k you could've purchased another LE-only box.
That one had 61 miniatures, including 3 bikes and 1 walker and a 386 page book plus a quickstart guide.
So yeaaaah, I am not sure how anyone can look at this and think "this is VALUE". It might be standar GW fare, but GW shown what real value looks like...and 13 models for 200 bucks ain't that.
Dont you dare trying to compare objective numbers, that's not allowed here!
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Kanluwen wrote: Cool, now do the part where those are models you might actually want.
Ya suuuure you want to go with that angle of attack here?
About the box that EVERYONE has been pointing out how it has been padded with a dread that nobody really want compared to getting MORE black templar things (yaknow, the thing people want)?
If that box had contained another templar box and a sword breathren nobody would have complained about the box, but GW got out of its way to put the bare minimum BT in there by slapping a big dread in it.
And this thing is a LE set that won't be available in 2 months either.
But sure, let's compare it to a set that is in production now. The 40k Elite starter is 99$, with 27 figures. It doesn't come with any book to speak of, but is full $100 cheaper than the BT box 2x as many figures.
The point being made is that GW can and does sell more models for cheaper or the same price, often with bigger books too. Nothing that the BT set offers is actually "value" when compared with other GW sets at a similar cost. As a gaming product, it has some of the worst value of all 40k boxed sets. Literally the only "value" it has is the subjective "it's new models" or "it's got BT iconography" aspect. Objectively, you're getting fewer marine models (nothing stops you from painting your marines in black and white with a maltese cross) for more.
I could defend this set over "starter" sets like Indomitus with monopose models.
But this box just like the Beast Snagga is full of monopose miniatures with nearly no options so feth them. Just 2 years ago, monopose units were sold as ETB and by nearly half the cost. Right now they are selling them as normal kits. Look at Outriders or Skorpekh Destroyers.
Kanluwen wrote: I didn't realize I could run Necrons as Space Marines.
Again, using starter products as some kind of "gotcha" just shows a wild misunderstanding of what drives sales of certain sets vs others.
How about you stop focusing on that box "started status" and just realize that even compared to OTHER box of the SAME TYPE its just bad.
I don't recall the beast snagga box having ONE squad of Snagga, 2 characters and a dread.
I was just wondering, your whole position here has been that the box isn't good enough for the cost. You build this premise by saying that the models, book, etc aren't as good as they could be when compared to an older product of the same type?
I was just wondering, your whole position here has been that the box isn't good enough for the cost. You build this premise by saying that the models, book, etc aren't as good as they could be when compared to an older product of the same type?
It's a double tap.
Not only the box content just quantitatively not good enough, but also qualitatively not good enough.
Not enough stuff and what there is is not good enough (especially for the book, the minies are "okay" but the sprue that force you to get scout when you want crusader is just bad).
Only just realized you don't get enough shoulder pads in the crusader squad kit to build the Sword Brother as a normal Initiate?
You get 8 Neophyte, 10 Initiate and 2 Sword Brother shoulder pad per 10 guys so if you want to have a 20 man unit (meaning you want to build a Sword Brother as an Initiate) you have to buy the upgrade sprue.
I was just wondering, your whole position here has been that the box isn't good enough for the cost. You build this premise by saying that the models, book, etc aren't as good as they could be when compared to an older product of the same type?
It's a double tap. Not only the box content just quantitatively not good enough, but also qualitatively not good enough.
Not enough stuff and what there is is not good enough (especially for the book, the minies are "okay" but the sprue that force you to get scout when you want crusader is just bad).
So you don't like it, why waste so much of your time being upset and arguing about it online? It's not going to magically change the sprues or what is in the book? It sounds like the product isn't for you.
Personally I hope GW keeps designing their rules in such a way that min/maxing squads so that you can have the ultimate best snowflakes becomes impossible. The less competitive the game is, the better it will be. But that's just my opinion. YMMV.
Kanluwen wrote: Cool, now do the part where those are models you might actually want.
Value's something that can be quantified both subjectively (I wouldn't care for a $500 for $200 set of Marines if it's all Space Wolf iconography, for example) and objectively ($200 is cheaper than $500).
Indomitus was a great deal. There's no denying that. But it also was only available last year. It's a nonentity as far as new players go, and for someone who wants to play Black Templars and wants to start with this set...this set might be better in their eyes.
Oh yes that Redemptor that contributes like 1/3rd of the price is very Black Templars specific.
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Matrindur wrote: Only just realized you don't get enough shoulder pads in the crusader squad kit to build the Sword Brother as a normal Initiate?
You get 8 Neophyte, 10 Initiate and 2 Sword Brother shoulder pad per 10 guys so if you want to have a 20 man unit (meaning you want to build a Sword Brother as an Initiate) you have to buy the upgrade sprue.
Kanluwen wrote: Cool, now do the part where those are models you might actually want.
Value's something that can be quantified both subjectively (I wouldn't care for a $500 for $200 set of Marines if it's all Space Wolf iconography, for example) and objectively ($200 is cheaper than $500).
Indomitus was a great deal. There's no denying that. But it also was only available last year. It's a nonentity as far as new players go, and for someone who wants to play Black Templars and wants to start with this set...this set might be better in their eyes.
Oh yes that Redemptor that contributes like 1/3rd of the price is very Black Templars specific.
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Matrindur wrote: Only just realized you don't get enough shoulder pads in the crusader squad kit to build the Sword Brother as a normal Initiate?
You get 8 Neophyte, 10 Initiate and 2 Sword Brother shoulder pad per 10 guys so if you want to have a 20 man unit (meaning you want to build a Sword Brother as an Initiate) you have to buy the upgrade sprue.
Great Value!
I mean Templars have dreadnoughts. Dreadnoughts have amazing rules at present. Dreadnoughts are even better in a Templars army where they can get a 5++ increasing their resilience. The Redemptor is a great looking model.
Seems like a win-win to me. I am certainly enjoying building the one that came in my BT box, the mini-Gatling gun is pretty dope.
Was a good value box if want everything in it, and I do, ye a redemptor is great (I still think great value if want all, considering prices of character models and if buy set from a secondary retailer so get 25% off).
They haven't even bought out the GK Combat Patrol box yet, so idk what time frame on the BT Combat Patrol box.
Kanluwen wrote: That one was also a "starting the game" set, which across basically any spectrum of miniatures is always code for "loss leader".
Except, of course, they are not actually selling at a loss, there.
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Kanluwen wrote: Cool, now do the part where those are models you might actually want.
I mean, I did. That's why I bought Indomitus, because I wanted what was in the box (all of it, actually) and the pricepoint was palatable.
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Spectral Ceramite wrote: Was a good value box if want everything in it, and I do, ye a redemptor is great (I still think great value if want all, considering prices of character models and if buy set from a secondary retailer so get 25% off).
They haven't even bought out the GK Combat Patrol box yet, so idk what time frame on the BT Combat Patrol box.
I don't agree and I do believe the value of the box was poor, but I am happy that it worked for you and that you enjoyed it
Matrindur wrote: Only just realized you don't get enough shoulder pads in the crusader squad kit to build the Sword Brother as a normal Initiate?
You get 8 Neophyte, 10 Initiate and 2 Sword Brother shoulder pad per 10 guys so if you want to have a 20 man unit (meaning you want to build a Sword Brother as an Initiate) you have to buy the upgrade sprue.
Why? There were always BT with more decorative pads, simply don't paint the second one with red rim/cross SB have, done. And it's kinda funny to see this right next to the post complaining there are not enough different new pads on the sprues
Kanluwen wrote: I didn't realize I could run Necrons as Space Marines.
Again, using starter products as some kind of "gotcha" just shows a wild misunderstanding of what drives sales of certain sets vs others.
We were talking about value of a set, not if you want it or not. Want is subjective. I don't want the BT set because of aesthetic reasons, but if the set had 30 marines in it, it'd definitely have good value for your money.
But we have direct comparison with similarly priced boxes from GW released only a few months back, and we can see that you are not getting as many models as in those sets. For your dollars, you are now getting fewer figures. It's objectively worse value proposition from contents perspective.
Cronch wrote: we can see that you are not getting as many models as in those sets. For your dollars, you are now getting fewer figures.
Yes, Kan gets that. What you're not getting is that that only matters if what you're looking for is just buying stuff to own the most stuff. If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.
So yes, by a certain objective value, you're correct, but that's only good for being "right" on the internet.
Platuan4th wrote: Yes, Kan gets that. What you're not getting is that that only matters if what you're looking for is just buying stuff to own the most stuff. If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.
I mean, yes... but by that metric, you can justify absolutely everything and anything.
If a comparable set of minis, recently released, costs the same but has, say, 50% more stuff inside, there's still objectively one that's worse value than the other.
If only because you'll have to either get more, hence you'll spend even more, or because to get to the same place you spent more in the first place.
"What I like" can have a place on whether I buy something or not, but not on the "objective value" of it.
If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.
Except of course it should, because there's always the option to just not buy, because you think the price is not good for what you're getting. Unlike food, there is no urgency there unless you're actually addicted.
Okay so do you people believe that five $1 bills is worth more than a single $5 bill? You can argue until you’re blue in the face that there’s more value in having the flexibility of that $5 already being broken down, or if the bills are newly printed and haven’t been handled, but you still only have $5.
Now apply to $200 worth of Space Marine models vs $200 worth of Snagga models. Hell, for the fun of it, go back to the Apocalypse boxes where Imperial Knights only had 3 models in their box worth $250 while Mechanicus got 10 models worth $250. Same exact thing, 3 is a smaller number than 10, but the monetary value of the kits included was exactly the same.
What you people are meaning to say is this is a bad DEAL instead of “value”, but these boxes weren’t intended to be some kind of deal, so it’s a bunk point. Get over it and move on.
What you people are meaning to say is this is a bad DEAL instead of “value”, but these boxes weren’t intended to be some kind of deal, so it’s a bunk point. Get over it and move on.
"I paid the same for less but it's ok, the value is there". ultimately all it does is ensure they keep putting fewer models into boxes for the same price, but hey, that's none of my business i guess.
What you people are meaning to say is this is a bad DEAL instead of “value”, but these boxes weren’t intended to be some kind of deal, so it’s a bunk point. Get over it and move on.
Telling people what they 'actually mean,' claiming that it 'wasn't meant for that' and they should just 'get over it' isn't a compelling argument. You're just refusing to listen.
Also, translation issues are a thing. Even as a native English speaker, just the way you've emphasized DEAL and "value" is quite puzzling. Those meaning partially overlap when talking about a trade, but in the context of a set retail price, they mean a lot less. And when advertisers use them to sell 'bargains,' they mean almost nothing- its pure manipulation to exploit people into buying.
tneva82 wrote:Discount sets not being discount if you only use part? Hello to water is liquid level of statement. Or sun is hot.
Yeah, its a weird one. It also dismisses anyone who actually wants to use both parts, or is part of a group.. or anything really.
Matrindur wrote: Only just realized you don't get enough shoulder pads in the crusader squad kit to build the Sword Brother as a normal Initiate?
You get 8 Neophyte, 10 Initiate and 2 Sword Brother shoulder pad per 10 guys so if you want to have a 20 man unit (meaning you want to build a Sword Brother as an Initiate) you have to buy the upgrade sprue.
This is... pretty disappointing, but not really surprising. Better buy thos upgrade sprueamirit?!
Togusa wrote: So you don't like it, why waste so much of your time being upset and arguing about it online? It's not going to magically change the sprues or what is in the book? It sounds like the product isn't for you.
Always bogles my mind how people can end up with such ... "strange" reasoning.
Do you always keep quiet about stuff that are wrong your life? Do you just suck it up and shut up?
Do you even know what a forum is supposed to be for? (I'm just going to spell it out just in case, its to share your opinion)
Do you even realize that we are a consumer base and that the best way to bring change is to let our displeasure known, right?.
RIGHT?
Platuan4th wrote: Yes, Kan gets that. What you're not getting is that that only matters if what you're looking for is just buying stuff to own the most stuff. If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.
I mean, yes... but by that metric, you can justify absolutely everything and anything..
Yup, they know it and that's why they always default on that pile of sophistry.
Remember, objectivity doesn't matter, only subjectivity is important, but only if its "good" subjectivity, otherwise you are just a "troll".
Why are you even responding to my post if you don’t like it? Why don’t you take your own advice and stop "wasting so much of your time being upset" about it?
I mean Templars have dreadnoughts.
Dreadnoughts have amazing rules at present.
Dreadnoughts are even better in a Templars army where they can get a 5++ increasing their resilience.
The Redemptor is a great looking model.
Seems like a win-win to me. I am certainly enjoying building the one that came in my BT box, the mini-Gatling gun is pretty dope.
Except, yaknow, when you buy a Black Templar specific box at the release of a new batch of black templar unit, the logical thing to expect is to get just that, right?
Remember that dread in the beast snaga box?
"I paid the same for less but it's ok, the value is there". ultimately all it does is ensure they keep putting fewer models into boxes for the same price, but hey, that's none of my business i guess.
Exactly. It's always funny to see people think they are being very smart while actively working against their own interest and in favor of multibillion companies.
Matrindur wrote: Only just realized you don't get enough shoulder pads in the crusader squad kit to build the Sword Brother as a normal Initiate? You get 8 Neophyte, 10 Initiate and 2 Sword Brother shoulder pad per 10 guys so if you want to have a 20 man unit (meaning you want to build a Sword Brother as an Initiate) you have to buy the upgrade sprue.
This is... pretty disappointing, but not really surprising. Better buy thos upgrade sprueamirit?!
Togusa wrote: So you don't like it, why waste so much of your time being upset and arguing about it online? It's not going to magically change the sprues or what is in the book? It sounds like the product isn't for you.
Always bogles my mind how people can end up with such ... "strange" reasoning. Do you always keep quiet about stuff that are wrong your life? Do you just suck it up and shut up? Do you even know what a forum is supposed to be for? (I'm just going to spell it out just in case, its to share your opinion) Do you even realize that we are a consumer base and that the best way to bring change is to let our displeasure known, right?. RIGHT?
Platuan4th wrote: Yes, Kan gets that. What you're not getting is that that only matters if what you're looking for is just buying stuff to own the most stuff. If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.
I mean, yes... but by that metric, you can justify absolutely everything and anything..
Yup, they know it and that's why they always default on that pile of sophistry. Remember, objectivity doesn't matter, only subjectivity is important, but only if its "good" subjectivity, otherwise you are just a "troll".
Why are you even responding to my post if you don’t like it? Why don’t you take your own advice and stop "wasting so much of your time being upset" about it?
I mean Templars have dreadnoughts. Dreadnoughts have amazing rules at present. Dreadnoughts are even better in a Templars army where they can get a 5++ increasing their resilience. The Redemptor is a great looking model.
Seems like a win-win to me. I am certainly enjoying building the one that came in my BT box, the mini-Gatling gun is pretty dope.
Except, yaknow, when you buy a Black Templar specific box at the release of a new batch of black templar unit, the logical thing to expect is to get just that, right? Remember that dread in the beast snaga box?
"I paid the same for less but it's ok, the value is there". ultimately all it does is ensure they keep putting fewer models into boxes for the same price, but hey, that's none of my business i guess.
Exactly. It's always funny to see people think they are being very smart while actively working against their own interest and in favor of multibillion companies.
The box and models are produced. The boat sailed on that one. Honest bro, it seems like you're crying simply to be crying about this. Pages and pages of worthless replies when you KNOW that nothing is going to change. These products and the way the models are designed and written is the hobby now. If that's not what you're looking for, there are plenty of fine other games on the market out there. Have at it.
Also, why do you keep crying about the Redemptor? Can black templars have Redemptors? Yes, the answer is yes. It's a useable (great looking) model (with above average rules) that looks quite good along side the rest of the models in the box. I'm sorry that you don't like it, I'd suggest that you not buy this product as it doesn't seem to be for you.
What you people are meaning to say is this is a bad DEAL instead of “value”, but these boxes weren’t intended to be some kind of deal, so it’s a bunk point. Get over it and move on.
"I paid the same for less but it's ok, the value is there". ultimately all it does is ensure they keep putting fewer models into boxes for the same price, but hey, that's none of my business i guess.
I factor time, model quality, painting, and games played into whether or not it was worth the cost.
So for example:
If I spend 200$ on a box, build the models but do not paint them, and play three games with them over a 6 month period, and then decide to sell them at 60% the cost because I'm not having fun. That's a waste of 200$ to me.
If I spend 200$ on a box, build AND paint the models, and then play a dozen dozen games with them over a 6 month period and intend to keep them forever. That's a good buy to me.
For me, the box was worth every penny I paid for it. I'm quite happy with it. I'm sorry that others are not, I'd advise those who aren't to not purchase the box.
a_typical_hero wrote: You got a box for yourself. The train to let GW know this kind of thing doesn't jive with you is gone, unless you refund it.
Are you 12?
Seriously asking here, because nobody over that age should still believe that boycott actually works.
Yeah, I got that box, I always wanted to return to black templar since 3rd and now is the best time for that.
I also spent more money on third party bits than on the box because GW can't do anything that doesn't look like a generic mass produced space trooper when it comes to marines these days.
I got that box because it was literally the last thing that felt like it could be worth the shot from GW and the result?
Welp, the book is shocking bad in every aspects (I've already covered it) and the minies are ... okay?
I mean, objectively they are still that trash monopose and very generic looking gak that 40k (and space marines in particular) have become now, but with the pile of 3rd bits I'll be able to do something cool and unique with it...
As cool and unique as the barebone gear option let you do anyway.
What it worth the money? feth no, and I think this was probably the last straw for me, I'll be getting the BT combat patrol to round up my army and will live on my pile of shame for the time being since it's pretty clear that GW doesn't fit the quality requirement I expect from them.
After the deception that was the Death Guard, the New Crons, the Deathwatch and the total abandonment of my old love the tyranids, I'm at a point where I feel like GW isn't able to give me what I expect from them.
Their rules are getting worst and worst (the bloating of 9th is just hillarious if you take a step back and look at it objectively), the minies are more and more Hobby unfriendly, the overal releases are rarely aimed at the right targets.
So yeah. This box will be my last GW purchase for a long bit, maybe ever.I always was more a hobby guy than a gamer anyway, my enjoyment comes from building, kitbashing and painting, so I have more than enough pile of shame to occupy me for a while, especially with some 3rd party bits.
Wana know what I'm doing mostly this days? Collecting old 2nd metal minies.
Togusa wrote: The box and models are produced. The boat sailed on that one. Honest bro, it seems like you're crying simply to be crying about this. Pages and pages of worthless replies when you KNOW that nothing is going to change. These products and the way the models are designed and written is the hobby now. If that's not what you're looking for, there are plenty of fine other games on the market out there. Have at it.
Right. So every post made in that third grade forum can only be make with the express goal of changing things?
In what world are you living on exactly?
Funnily enough to get back at the start of the post, while boycotting never worked, having consumer grievances spread to existing or potential new customer ACTUALLY do work, so in a way, I'm doing my part in trying to get things change, even if its not my main goal here, while what you are doing is the exact opposite (gigbrain move telling people to just leave, that have always been a wining strategy).
Togusa wrote: Also, why do you keep crying about the Redemptor? Can black templars have Redemptors? Yes, the answer is yes. It's a useable (great looking) model (with above average rules) that looks quite good along side the rest of the models in the box. I'm sorry that you don't like it, I'd suggest that you not buy this product as it doesn't seem to be for you.
Do you want me to repeat what I've already said many times, yaknow, about the snagga box and the dread, or the fact that its obvious padding in a box that people want for the new BT stuff?
Do you even know how to read "bro" are you just just here to repeat some very empty lines others have already used?
The MASSIVE irony of a guy telling others to just leave if they don't enjoy the hobby the way they do, to suddenly use the good ol "SuBjEcTiViTy" defense that directly contradict it a second later.
I'm pretty new to this forum, and I must admit I wasn't expecting such a shitstorm after sharing my enjoyment.
After many years without buying any GW products because it didn't appeal me, because they were lazy and only giving love to ultramarines, now that they are really putting efforts into renewing things and upgrading quality, making everything plastic and easy to kitbash, going back into grimdark (at least a little) I'm really surprised by the amount of saltiness. I get that everything is not perfect but some people here are not really objective or constructive.
The only complain that I really understand is the overpricing, but as I am more into collecting/painting than playing, this is not much of an issue for me (pile of shame speaking). I understand that the hobby being more and more expensive is a problem, and should be talked about.
The monopose issue can be seen as a problem too, but if you are old enough you should remember pewters models and it was far worse than anything that has been released recently (Sword Brethren anyone ?). I have some old BT upgrade sprues too, the quality and details is gak comparing with recents sprues. @(HN), you talk about the old edition a lot, but I don't remember having a dedicated plastic kit for BT before. All we had was pewter scouts and upgrade sprue for regular marines.
Regarding the Black Templar Army Set, I don't think of any objective reason to belive this is a good "deal", for the content is pretty short. But some people here must understand that enjoyment can be found in others things than quantity of model or quantity of rules. We could disagree and exchange point of view, but if the box isn't for you just don't buy it. I'm not talking about boycott, just save yourself from deception. This limited edition was clearly using nostalgia and visual criteria as selling argument. Reasonable people (with high standards ) who only want "a good deal" should wait for the patrol box, which contains more models for a more affordable price. Or stick to Codex Astartes Chapters that sells more and therefore have more kits and can be collected without spending too much. But saying this could be seen as gatekeeping and I don't want to do that. If you really like Black Templars, just be aware that we are a subfaction, we are but a little part of the GW customer base, so they can't give us as much as Ultramarines players.
I work in the industry, not the same domain as GW but I kinda know how it works. People creating minis, lore and art can be passionate and aware of player expectations, but they are tied by marketting and business teams. If your boss tell you "you have one sprue, sized X,Y, to make a multipart crusader squad, we won't invest more for a subfaction", well, you have to deal with it, and they did a pretty good job, using compromises. At the end of the day, if the box sells well, the team that worked on it would probably be praised and affected to other projects, maybe able to negociate more budget for incomming releases. I'm pretty optimistic for the future, as it seems at least some of our requests are slowly taken into account, since Indomitus it's going better and better.
You just need to learn who to put on ignore. Many, many slimeballs, morons, etc. Becomes more tolerable with liberal use of ignore button (this thread in particular seems pretty packed with losers, I have strings of up to 4 replies in a row hidden due to ignores).
bullyboy wrote: Can this thread just die already? Either youbsee calue in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.
By that logic GW could release a single Marine for 199$ and we wouldn't be able to complain because that's "completely subjective value" too.
Correct. If GW released a single marine of maybe only 10 made, it could absolutely have a value of $199. You could probably resell it for more.
The BT box, like the sisters box before it, had a unique cover, which again to many, adds value.
This is how it works. It may not have value to you, but no one is forcing you to buy it or expecting you to see the same value as everyone else.
edit: And if to just solidify my position, I just clicked on the news a few minute ago which had these 2 posts..
Michael Jordan trainers go for $1.47 million , and a Picasso painting sold for $110 million. They're shoes and a painting, objectively attach a price to that.
NAVARRO wrote: Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.
Makes sense!
No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.
A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here
bullyboy wrote: Can this thread just die already? Either youbsee calue in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.
By that logic GW could release a single Marine for 199$ and we wouldn't be able to complain because that's "completely subjective value" too.
Correct. If GW released a single marine of maybe only 10 made, it could absolutely have a value of $199. You could probably resell it for more.
The BT box, like the sisters box before it, had a unique cover, which again to many, adds value.
This is how it works. It may not have value to you, but no one is forcing you to buy it or expecting you to see the same value as everyone else.
edit: And if to just solidify my position, I just clicked on the news a few minute ago which had these 2 posts..
Michael Jordan trainers go for $1.47 million , and a Picasso painting sold for $110 million. They're shoes and a painting, objectively attach a price to that.
NAVARRO wrote: Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.
Makes sense!
No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.
A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here
Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.
NAVARRO wrote: Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.
Makes sense!
No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.
A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here
Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.
Yup. Some people spend a little too many "2 minutes" posting haterade.
NAVARRO wrote: Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.
Makes sense!
No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.
A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here
Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.
Yup. Some people spend a little too many "2 minutes" posting haterade.
And some people spend a little too many 2 minutes defending multi-million dollar corporations.
NAVARRO wrote: Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.
Makes sense!
No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.
A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here
Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.
Yup. Some people spend a little too many "2 minutes" posting haterade.
And some people spend a little too many 2 minutes defending multi-million dollar corporations.
It's not always about defending the multi-million dollar business so much as calling out the trolls.
NAVARRO wrote: Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.
Makes sense!
No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.
A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here
Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.
Yup. Some people spend a little too many "2 minutes" posting haterade.
And some people spend a little too many 2 minutes defending multi-million dollar corporations.
It's not always about defending the multi-million dollar business so much as calling out the trolls.
Or people getting tired of a certain subset of posters gakking excess negativity on every thread.
bullyboy wrote: Can this thread just die already? Either you see value in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.
This extreme sophistry needs to die.
It’s a lie born from sunk cost fallacy of people desperate to justify their purchase and it’s one GW love to encourage with intentionally confusing pricing that aim at making hard to access any kind of prices baseline.
sigismund22 wrote: I'm pretty new to this forum, and I must admit I wasn't expecting such a shitstorm after sharing my enjoyment.
I think you are under the false assumption that your particular post is what started the “shitstorm”, let me reassure you, it’s really not, just looking at the thread history before you pop up should be more than enough proof of that.
sigismund22 wrote: After many years without buying any GW products because it didn't appeal me, because they were lazy and only giving love to ultramarines, now that they are really putting efforts into renewing things and upgrading quality, making everything plastic and easy to kitbash, going back into grimdark (at least a little) .
This paragraph honestly left me scratching my head.
It really is just telling me (and again, don’t take it as a personal attack, it’s just an observation) that you may not really know what you are talking about.
Outside of 4th and maybe 5th marine dex, GW didn’t really give more love to them than other chapters, outside of using them as the poster boy (unlike Space Wolves, Blood & Dark Angels that got actual unique units).
As of for now, calling the primaris bloating calling it “putting effort into renewing things and upgrading quality” is a pretty biased way of presenting what is really just GW attempt at forcing existing SM player to buy a new army by making their existing one obsolete.
Do the primaris look better sculptwise than the first born? Well, yes, of course, since they are using better moulding technology and have adopted the “true scale”, both things that could have perfectly be done with the first born without the nead of bringing a new marine line (see what’s going on on the chaos marine side).
Making everything to plastic?
I mean… yeah, they have been doing that for a decade now.
Making it easier to kitbash? What the feth are you talking about? Marines in particular have never been worse in term of kitbashability both due to their monopose kits and their barebone gear option that basically removed everything that isn’t on the sprue.
This is probably the biggest red flag that makes me think you are just a new comer talking out of your ass, which would explain why your standard is so low: You clearly don’t know what the game use to have.
As for the grimdark… what? Again, this is a big red flag for me.
Just slapping a tabard on a clean cut brand new marine in brand new armor doesn’t make it grimdark, if anything slapping full squeletons in front of shields is what we call Grimderp, not grimdark.
sigismund22 wrote: I'm really surprised by the amount of saltiness. I get that everything is not perfect but some people here are not really objective or constructive.
What I’m really surprised about is that you are trying to pass as someone that knows what he is talking about in order to justify you position and try to undermine people with legitimate grievances.
You like it? Fine, nobody is stopping you from doing that, but don’t come here trying to pretend this meats your expectation when you have clearly none since you don’t know what already existed in the past.
sigismund22 wrote: The only complain that I really understand is the overpricing, but as I am more into collecting/painting than playing, this is not much of an issue for me (pile of shame speaking). I understand that the hobby being more and more expensive is a problem, and should be talked about.
So… Since when exactly getting LESS individual minies to paint and collect “doesn’t really impact you”? If anything the hobbyist have been the ones that got the most impacted with these changes, since players care more about a point value, and GW has focused on increasing the point cost of most things to justify selling you less mini (because you get the same “points” for the cost, just less minies).
Again, this is clearly the kind of statement someone that doesn’t really know what he’s talking about would make.
sigismund22 wrote: The monopose issue can be seen as a problem too, but if you are old enough you should remember pewters models and it was far worse than anything that has been released recently (Sword Brethren anyone ?).
Ha yes, the metal minies, sure. Because we clearly just jumped from metal to primaris with nothing in between… What?
sigismund22 wrote: The I have some old BT upgrade sprues too, the quality and details is gak comparing with recents sprues.
Again, NO gak that brand new sprues will have smaller and crisper details moulding than 20years old minies. And just like with the rest of the primaris the problem isn’t the detail quality, that’s a given, the problem is they made with that new improved quality, and the result is pretty clear: a worst product. Just put the new and old BT upgrade next to eachoters, ignore the detail quality difference (or just imagine if they redid the old upgrade 1 to 1 with just the new sculpting and moulding tech) and the result speaks for itself.
sigismund22 wrote: @(HN), you talk about the old edition a lot, but I don't remember having a dedicated plastic kit for BT before. All we had was pewter scouts and upgrade sprue for regular marines.
Except, yaknow, the aformantioned upgrade sprue was for all intend and pupose the crusader kit. It contained everything you needed to make them look like black Templars, from the tabard to the weapons.
AGAIN, why would you think that’s an argument? Do you think an army doesn’t have anything unless they have a unit box with their name on it? After you talked about kitbashing ealier?
sigismund22 wrote: Regarding the Black Templar Army Set, I don't think of any objective reason to belive this is a good "deal", for the content is pretty short. But some people here must understand that enjoyment can be found in others things than quantity of model or quantity of rules.
Again, nobody is saying you cannot enjoy things. You have to understand that your feeling toward something doesn’t have any bearing on its actual objective value.
Want to totally disregard the quantity of model or quality of rules? Sure, go ahead. But don’t try to pretend that’s a normal thing to do.
sigismund22 wrote: This limited edition was clearly using nostalgia and visual criteria as selling argument. Reasonable people (with high standards ) who only want "a good deal" should wait for the patrol box, which contains more models for a more affordable price
That’s another point where you seem to be confused, there’s two problem with that box:
First the quantity of stuff in it. Everyone can see the problem.
Second the quality of stuff in it. This part will be especially visible for any of the people that got here because of the obvious nostalgia bait that box was built upon (unless you are one of thos people that have second hand nostalgia of stuff they never really experience in the first place, and there’s A LOT of thos as the World of Warcraft Classic have shown us recently).
I’m one of thos guy that got the box purely for the nostalgia, and that’s why when I opened to book I couldn’t stop myself from noticing how dog gak it was, even before putting it next to the old book I had.
That’s the thing with nostalgia bait, it only works if you can match either the rose tainted glasse nostalgia people have or an objective comparison to the stuff that nostalgia refers too, and in both case they failed.
sigismund22 wrote: I work in the industry, not the same domain as GW but I kinda know how it works. People creating minis, lore and art can be passionate and aware of player expectations, but they are tied by marketting and business teams. If your boss tell you "you have one sprue, sized X,Y, to make a multipart crusader squad, we won't invest more for a subfaction", well, you have to deal with it, and they did a pretty good job, using compromises. At the end of the day, if the box sells well, the team that worked on it would probably be praised and affected to other projects, maybe able to negociate more budget for incomming releases. I'm pretty optimistic for the future, as it seems at least some of our requests are slowly taken into account, since Indomitus it's going better and better.
I work too “in an industry” (the video game industry to be precise) and I know too well how things goes, and that’s why I call call out gak when I see it.
No, “marketing and business teams” don’t give a gak about what you put in a book outside of the number of page, hell despite what a lot of people would like to believe they even rarely care about the balancing, and while they can indeed have the say on what a sprue should contain, that just doesn’t matter for us, the end customers, who decision it was to deliver us a subpar product.
JWBS wrote: You just need to learn who to put on ignore. Many, many slimeballs, morons, etc. Becomes more tolerable with liberal use of ignore button (this thread in particular seems pretty packed with losers, I have strings of up to 4 replies in a row hidden due to ignores).
NAVARRO wrote: Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.
Makes sense!
No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.
Cool story my dudes, thanks for “contributing” to the discussion.
Or people getting tired of a certain subset of posters gakking excess negativity on every thread.
It’s funy because usually these tired peoples don’t seem to be able to contribute in any meaningful way outside of flooding with petty pointless posts.
Wow. At first I was answering you because I thought you had some valid arguments, I thought we would agree to disagree because we don't have the same criterias.
But now you are going on a crusade against me, picking everything I wrote to tell me that I'm wrong in a way or another. I clearly said the cost was an issue and you made me say the opposite. Even pretending that "I may be new to the hobby". Is the third edition a recent one ? Are we playing "who started Warhammer first" ?
I've been respectful but you cleary aren't, so I wish you a good day sir.
JWBS wrote: You just need to learn who to put on ignore. Many, many slimeballs, morons, etc. Becomes more tolerable with liberal use of ignore button (this thread in particular seems pretty packed with losers, I have strings of up to 4 replies in a row hidden due to ignores).
Thank you for bringing this to my attention! I was completely unaware of this functionality
