zedmeister wrote:

Vorian wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
I think what this stark box is really going to show is how high GW prices have got. For me, I'd say that's about £50 worth of value there, and that's pushing it. What's the betting this'll be for £160-£180.

If the box sells out, which I think we can say it inevitability will, then we know your value is off.

Oh it'll sell, no doubt. I stand by my perception of value (hence my use of "For me"). We know the price is going to be eye watering.

Sure, but your perception of value is significantly below the market value.

If they were charging £50 for that they would be incompetent.

Well, colour me surprised. Not as brutally steep as I thought. Still priced above the £100 battleforces that were sold a couple of years ago.

Vorian wrote:
Sure, but your perception of value is significantly below the market value.

If they were charging £50 for that they would be incompetent.

Then they've increased their prices beyond what I am willing to pay. £50 is what I'd call a sane price and was what the start collecting sets were going for before they were bumped up to £85 (!) and this is roughly equivalent to what are in those (1 Character, 1 Squad, 1 Vehicle). Cards and codex supplement excepted.

That's fine, but you write it as if that's their issue. They are charging what people will pay for it.

Insane would be charging £50 for something they could probably sell out multiple times at £125.

Vorian wrote:
That's fine, but you write it as if that's their issue. They are charging what people will pay for it.

Insane would be charging £50 for something they could probably sell out multiple times at £125.

It is as they're back onto the price rise treadmill. Granted, they've been subtly about it since the Change™, but this is just straight back to old habbits.

As for what some people are willing to pay, I think they're nuts for shelling out for something priced that high for so little. Some people have talked about "deal" and "savings". Personally, I see nothing of the sort.

Voss wrote:
And I see that Black Templars are getting 'Vows and Passions' on top of the usual marine layers of nonsense. Are we at the (new paradigm +1) stage of codex creep already?

On that note, we are almost halfway through the edition and it's a good bet that it's the last chance to make a Marine supplement that's different to the existing supplements without starting a whole new cycle. There's no better time for a paradigm shift than now.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Still umming and ahhing over whether to purchase this. There's just so much on the horizon and starting a SM army from scratch is pretty pricey. So very tempted though.

No stake in it, but if you want it...I'd say go for it. You seem to really like BT so why not go whole hog?

If they do Cadians this way, I'm going in.

There's just so much on the horizon that I'm also interested in: CSM + Eldar + the 30k box + Chaos Knights all almost certainly next year, World Eaters at some point...I'm trying to be fiscally responsible here.

Unless you feel like treating yourself and/or are really into that specific codex cover, there's no increased value in this set over buying things individually at your leisure. Possibly saving money on the Dreadnought if you don't need it, considering it's just the generic one. These army launch boxes tend to skimp on any notable discount you get from other GW boxed sets in favor of letting you get your hands on the codex and models earlier. If that is of no value to you, you're missing out on the main selling point and may as well buy the individual kits whenever you feel like it.

I'm not trying to be a downer, mind. But if you're realistic there are very specific requirements to get added value out of a launch box like this. I bought the Sisters launch box and was happy with it, but that had inherent value to me because it came at the end of a very long wait for plastic models and in that specific case those same models weren't released again until the Combat Patrol a year and a half later. So at least I got to work on some of those models before I would have otherwise had a chance. With the Templars it looks like the models will be available in November (potential shipping/production issues notwithstanding). That's pretty negligible in my opinion.

 zedmeister wrote:

Vorian wrote:
That's fine, but you write it as if that's their issue. They are charging what people will pay for it.

Insane would be charging £50 for something they could probably sell out multiple times at £125.

It is as they're back onto the price rise treadmill. Granted, they've been subtly about it since the Change™, but this is just straight back to old habbits.

As for what some people are willing to pay, I think they're nuts for shelling out for something priced that high for so little. Some people have talked about "deal" and "savings". Personally, I see nothing of the sort.

Ok, but again, that's your perception and therefore subjective.

They are selling out more than they can manufacture, costs are going up for everything in the supply chain => completely logical that prices will rise.

I would also like things to be cheaper and I get priced out of some GW things too, but that isn't saying prices are too high or that they are doing something wrong.

13 models... at least I own Gw shares
I like the models, but not enough to add to my pile of shame for that kind of money.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

£125 for 13 models and a supplement, not even a codex. Oh and no dice either (although I admit that's a minor thing, but SoB and Lumineth both had them).

Will still sell out in under five minutes.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

£125 for 13 models and a supplement, not even a codex. Oh and no dice either (although I admit that's a minor thing, but SoB and Lumineth both had them).

Will still sell out in under five minutes.

That's a fairly modest £20-25 saving on retail prices compared to buying everything separately. Roughly works out as getting one of the character models for free.

Good if you want to use everything in the box, not so great if for example you don't need another dread.

It seems like a decent purchase if you want everything in the box. It would be nicer if it had more new models instead of the Redemptor. It's a good unit, but I'd suspect many people already have them.

I only want the crusader kit an maybe the EC for kitbashing and converting, so I'll wait separate release. Besides, I need to hunt a fifth neophyte from bit sellers anyway to make a vanilla scout squad out of them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Black Adder wrote:
I doubt it will be made to order only because it will likely include a limited edition codex. For those that really want one I hope I'm wrong.

I did not say "made to order only".

Sorry, that's not what I meant to imply. There should have been some punctuation before the 'only'. I was thinking that they wouldn't produce any made to order copies because it had a limited ed codex.

Anyway, I'm glad to say I was wrong and that they are doing some on-demand production if people miss the initial shock.

Goodness gracious! £125!

Good luck with that, budding Marshals...

Whats the 125GBP price point translate to in American (note - not asking for exchange rate, I'm asking for price point, the two are not the same)? $170?

Roughly what I expected, but not necessarily the best in terms of value:

Redemptor = $65
10 man squad = Unknown, guessing $60
Emperors Champ = Unknown, guessing $30
Other character = Unknown, guessing $30
Codex Supplement = $30
Datacards = Overpriced, $35

So estimated $185 in minis, plus another $65 in paper, total $250 value if bought individually.

125GBP=$199USD. It's the price of KT Octarius.

So, with 185$ in minis, in a box that costs 199$, buying the box is a net loss if you just want the models.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, with 185$ in minis, in a box that costs 199$, buying the box is a net loss if you just want the models.

But you'll be supporting Games Workshop in these hard times!

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
Yeah, if that’s $200 I’ll certainly wait.


13 minis and a codex is by no means worth $200, even by GW logic.

Wait for what? Solo releases so you get to pay more for same?

Solo relased so he doesn't have to buy the Redemptor and the Codex supplement, presumably.

I’d just pass on the whole thing most likely. It’s not the amount of money that is the problem, but rather the feeling of value I get for that amount.

The fact that I’ve been waiting for a BT release for what seems like forever adds inherent value, but then GW is going to test that with their zany prices. Add that to the fact that the book and cards will only be valid for a year or two and then I’ll have to rebuy ALL my books.

I really don’t like GW’s business model, and that’s making me less likely to buy their products. You’ve got to pay a model premium (because GW) and that’s fine, we all kind of signed on for that when we got into the hobby, but then they add in EVERYTHING ELSE (Rulebook, codex, codex supplement, warzone supplement, chapter approved, etc...) and now you’re paying $200 in books that have a max shelf life of what...three years? I could do a model premium or a book premium, but not both.

I won’t pay for recasts of in-production models and I won’t illegally download the codex because I personally feel like that’s not the best thing to do. That leaves me with two options: buy the stuff or don’t buy the stuff. I’m far more likely to not buy the stuff at this point.

BUT that’s just me! If you’re looking forward to this release, that’s awesome! I can’t wait to see what you guys can do with these models in the painting forum! And there’s no getting around the new crusaders and characters are schaweeeeet!

 xttz wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

£125 for 13 models and a supplement, not even a codex. Oh and no dice either (although I admit that's a minor thing, but SoB and Lumineth both had them).

Will still sell out in under five minutes.

That's a fairly modest £20-25 saving on retail prices compared to buying everything separately. Roughly works out as getting one of the character models for free.

Good if you want to use everything in the box, not so great if for example you don't need another dread.

The poor discount on Army Boxes before was balanced out somewhat by everything being new and shiny. The presence of the Dreadnought really mitigates that quite a bit when it's probably not an uncommon purchase.

tneva82 wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, with 185$ in minis, in a box that costs 199$, buying the box is a net loss if you just want the models.

Maybe stop your silly stupid dishonest troll complaining? Discount boxes are only discount if you want everything in it. That's the way it works. If you only want part you don't get discount box.

I find it pretty impressive that my point of view is so often described as stupid, dishonest and trolling, when it's all genuine. Everytime GW prints something it's notoriously full of mistakes and unbalanced, with no proofreading involved. The supplement is most likely going to be outdated within weeks, thus worthless. Doubly so if you're going to get your rules online anyway.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Whats the 125GBP price point translate to in American (note - not asking for exchange rate, I'm asking for price point, the two are not the same)? $170?

Roughly what I expected, but not necessarily the best in terms of value:

Redemptor = $65
10 man squad = Unknown, guessing $60
Emperors Champ = Unknown, guessing $30
Other character = Unknown, guessing $30
Codex Supplement = $30
Datacards = Overpriced, $35

So estimated $185 in minis, plus another $65 in paper, total $250 value if bought individually.

As a note, you've got a bit of pricing disparity...

Emperor's Champion is a named 40mm based model, so $40 min.
Marshal has options and is 40mm based, so $35-$40.
Datacards are probably going to be $15-$25 tops.

So it'd be:
65+60+40+(35/40)+30+(15/18/25).
245 min,
260 tops.

Redemptor is a millstone around the neck of the box, but them's the breaks when you get full kits.

You know, I can't see anyone complaining if they replaced the Redemptor with the incoming Sword Brethren. They're probably gonna cost as much as a Redemptor anyway if not more, Bladeguard Vets are 50$ and Heavy Intercessors 60$.

Gotta say, if I was a Black Templars player, I'd want the box just for that Codex. Amazing to have that art on your codex.

For Australians, assuming the $290 AUD price point is true, assuming prices for individual units hold true to pas releases:

Emperor’s Champion and Marshal = $70 each
Crusaders and Initiates = $98
Redemptor Dreadnought = $110
Codex Supplement = $49
Datacards = $28

Totals $425 of retail value, so there actually is a decent saving on the box, especially if you can get a discount from your local.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, with 185$ in minis, in a box that costs 199$, buying the box is a net loss if you just want the models.

So don't buy it and buy the models separately later.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, with 185$ in minis, in a box that costs 199$, buying the box is a net loss if you just want the models.

What kind of logic is that? I dont save up on the box if I just want parts of it. Gee the Dark Angels combat patrol box is way overpriced if I just want the Redemptor.

tneva82 wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, with 185$ in minis, in a box that costs 199$, buying the box is a net loss if you just want the models.

Gee. Discount box is not discount if you just want part of it.

Okay so I just want the supplement. It's not discount! GW should sell it for 5£! That way whatever you want you get discount!

Maybe stop your silly stupid dishonest troll complaining? Discount boxes are only discount if you want everything in it. That's the way it works. If you only want part you don't get discount box.

Even kindergarden aged KID can understand it. Surely you don't want to admit being worse than a kid?

You are being a bit unfair and unnecessary agressive here. Most of the time, these big boxes were a good deal even for those who wanted only the models. Books and cards were like a bonus. Now it doesn't look like a good deal anymore. I'll probably buy this box anyways cause I'm a third edition / Black Templars nostalgic and I can afford it, but I know I will be supporting some bad practices.
As said by other people, with a 200$/155€ price tag, they should have added some more stuff to be consistent with their previous boxes. I bought Indomitus last year, it was a very honnest deal. This new BT box is not, but they know people like me are craving for it anyways.

Beast Snagga Army Box was 199$ and had a 200$ of Models inside, so while it wasn't exactly a saving, the Codex and such wastepaper were essentially freebies.

Yes, let's look at "these big boxes"...by actually looking at the product they are, not by lumping them in with something they aren't. This isn't Indomitus, a 2P starter/launch box. It's a faction launch box.

Lumineth? 2 units(Dawn Riders and Wardens) and 1 character(Light of Eltharion).

Sisters of Battle? Mixed sprues resulting in 1 unit of 10x SoB, a unit of 3x Arco Flagellants, a unit of 5x Seraphim, a Penitent Engine, and a unit of 5x Sisters Repentia and a Repentia Superior. Separate sprue with a Canoness. End result is 5x units and 2x characters.

Beast-Snaggas? A set of Squighog Boyz(3 models in a unit with their Bomb Squig upgrade and a Nob on Smasha Squig[separate unit choice] on sprue), 2x sets of Beast-Snagga Boyz(10 models strong for box, apparently), and Zodgrod(HQ). Ends up with 2x characters and 3x units.

Now the BT set is 2x characters(Champion and Marshal) plus Dreadnought(Elite) and Crusader Squad(Troop choice). It might look underwhelming, but it's about on par with the other 2 that aren't mixed sprues.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/04/black-templars-reinforcements-are-on-the-way-with-these-amazingly-zealous-new-models/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=Facebook&utm_term=TemplarsArmySet041021&utm_content=TemplarsArmySet041021&fbclid=IwAR2eLs2wpVFWKKtK52JBrSwJQqtewR_p64wlwdi3BOCv6EXDobKCIB2Bnd4

A lot of oddly proportioned marines there, especially the sword brethren and Castellan. I won't be buying any of this stuff.

OP is now updated, again, with all the goodies.

The video itself:




Is this... is... is this a Firstborn Marine?

I agree that the Castellan looks weirdly squat and fat. The Sword Brethren a bit too, but no so obviously.

I think the issue is that they just sculpted all the robes, cables, gorgets and chains over the standard Primaris armour, and this bulks up the torso too much.

The upgrade sprue looks excellent though. I will definitely get that and divide the contents among my Marines and Battle Sisters.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Now the BT set is 2x characters(Champion and Marshal) plus Dreadnought(Elite) and Crusader Squad(Troop choice). It might look underwhelming, but it's about on par with the other 2 that aren't mixed sprues.

It doesn't have the Champion actually, it's just the Marshal, Crusaders and Dread.

I really, really like that Castellan and his thick torso. I think his gigantic filled-out shoulder pauldrons are my favorite part. He's a slab.

I don't have any interest in playing BTs but I'm loving the look of the new models. The Upgrade box coming with specific bits for the Crusade relics is a really neat addition. I wish the starter box had a better selection of new models instead of the Dread because I'd love to pick it up as a hobby project and the Codex not having Brother Giraffe on the cover, but its value is dubious as it stands.

ALSO- the Upgrade sprue might actually fix the plastic Scouts.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Now the BT set is 2x characters(Champion and Marshal) plus Dreadnought(Elite) and Crusader Squad(Troop choice). It might look underwhelming, but it's about on par with the other 2 that aren't mixed sprues.

It doesn't have the Champion actually, it's just the Marshal, Crusaders and Dread.

Containing 13 miniatures, 12 of which are available for the first time in this very box, this is the perfect place to start a Black Templars army or build on your existing force. Leading the charge is the stunning new Emperor’s Champion, and ensuring that the correct vows are uttered and devotions followed is a Marshal.

Try again.

No it has the Emperor's Champion.

[EDIT]: Also, with the Castellan. The guy just behind him, without the helmet, they haven't made a mini of him but the accessory sprue does come with his head (top left-most head).


So has anyone got the rumour list to compare this to?

The Lieutenant looks suspicously Firstborn

I wasn't going to buy Black Templars... but now I am. Hopefully its not too much of a bother to shave off all those crosses.

[EDIT]: Also, with the Castellan. The guy just behind him, without the helmet, they haven't made a mini of him but the accessory sprue does come with his head (top left-most head).

Spoiler:

So has anyone got the rumour list to compare this to?

It's a 100% match.

Didn't the rumours say something about a standard bearer? Or is that the guy that comes with Ol' Grimmy?

My wallet is going to cry itself to sleep tonight.

Will definitely be getting the upgrade sprue for some extra heads and gubbins for my Celestial Lions. Looks like it will be a fair bit larger than the upgrade sprues we have for other chapters as well, I just fear the price given that it is bigger, comes with a transfer sheet and is in a box rather than clam shell.

Happy for the BT players out there, some interesting looking stuff for them.

The cinetmatic vid shows off 2 castellans, one as a primaris castellan and the other as just a castellan - so pretty sure he is a firstborn

Liking that the primaris combi weapon shown is an "auto plasma" - hopefully auto bolt rifle/plasma gun

There was mention of an Ancient BUT there's a possibility that the Ancient is built from the Sword Brethren or it was misidentifying the Bladeguard Ancient.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
The Lieutenant looks suspicously Firstborn

The armor at least is totally an old mark...

I need to get this sword:


... and somehow combine it with this guy to make a more sinister Judiciar.

Upgrade sprue is superb. Loving the Chapter Relics being given special sculpts, without being tied to a specific model.

It’s not quite the multi part “we clips it all offs and then mixes it ups and builds what we wants” I’d like to see a return to. But it is close enough for now.

The Sword Brethren do look a bit odd. The proportions I think are down to the robes, but the poses make them looking like they’re shattered and stumbling around.

Oh man, anyone else feeling like this is what Primaris Marines *should* have been all along? Also, that Castellan based off the Blanche artwork is what I wish ALL Space Marines were like – proper messed-up RT SM vibes. Reckon I've found myself a Chaplain for my all-firstborn Crimson Fists project.

Wait….Sword Brethren.

It’s their Shoulder Pads. The seem humongous in the pics.

H.B.M.C That is one hell of an idea .

I wonder if sculpted releases for Crusade Relics will be an ongoing policy for 40k releases or just an opportunity that the Templar upgrade sprue allowed?

I would love to see a larger GSC upgrade sprue to further improve the Cadian kit.

Love the Castellan.

He is clearly not a Primaris, definitely a classic/firstborn marine.

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:

I wonder if sculpted releases for Crusade Relics will be an ongoing policy for 40k releases or just an opportunity that the Templar upgrade sprue allowed?

I wouldn't be shocked if it's part of a "Your Army, Your Choices" push. We're seeing it with Kill Team as well.

I would love to see a larger GSC upgrade sprue to further improve the Cadian kit.

After today's reveal of the upgrade sprue, I would not be expecting that to be tied to the Cadian kit.

They went and done it, they made new truescale Firstborn.

I think the Castellan might be the absolute most Warhammer-40,000 model Citadel have ever made. It's amazing. I love it, apart from the fact it makes everything else look rubbish in comparison.

robbienw wrote:
He is clearly not a Primaris, definitely a classic/firstborn marine.

Yeah, a couple of GW people have said on Twitter he's not Primaris.

The sword of judgment has writing that looks eerily close to AOS runes.

Also, am I the only one who thinks the firstborn marshal was going to be an exclusive model that ended up becoming a widespread model? Too many things about him make him too unique for me to not think he was going to be a warhammer world or anniversary model

I'm gonna be super happy if Crusader Squads allow me to recycle my Scouts.

Besides Librarians, what unit restrictions do you think Templars are gonna get?

I'm halfway prepared to play my Ultras as Blue Templars.

 GaroRobe wrote:
The sword of judgment has writing that looks eerily close to AOS runes.

Also, am I the only one who thinks the firstborn marshal was going to be an exclusive model that ended up becoming a widespread model? Too many things about him make him too unique for me to not think he was going to be a warhammer world or anniversary model

Yep, he's like Veridyan or Slambo.

I love that firstborn Marine, and the Aurelian Shroud is the most fething metal thing I’ve ever seen.

I can’t wait to restart my Templars

 Galas wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
The sword of judgment has writing that looks eerily close to AOS runes.

Also, am I the only one who thinks the firstborn marshal was going to be an exclusive model that ended up becoming a widespread model? Too many things about him make him too unique for me to not think he was going to be a warhammer world or anniversary model

Yep, he's like Veridyan or Slambo.

Exactly. He’s too faithful to the original artwork for me to believe he’s not a Slambo. The axe and gun look to retro for an “official” model

The primaris castellan in the video is one of the sword brethren builds (specifically the one in the article with the plasma combi and sword). Interesting, that the sword brethren seem to have alternative builds for characters, like the deathwing terminators set. Maybe the ancient is in the sword brethren box set. Will also be interesting if the sword brethren are a completely unique unit or a variation on the bladeguard.

I love that firstborn Castellan.

Now give me some proper Blood Angels with leopard pelts!

In addition. If the cloaks on the back of the sword brethren are not necessarily made as part of the torso (or if it is, easily able to avoid BT iconography) that means 3d printed cloaks for me will no longer need to be purchased.

 GaroRobe wrote:
The sword of judgment has writing that looks eerily close to AOS runes.

It says 'JUDICIUM'.

Also, am I the only one who thinks the firstborn marshal was going to be an exclusive model that ended up becoming a widespread model? Too many things about him make him too unique for me to not think he was going to be a warhammer world or anniversary model

Seems likely.

Keel wrote:

Now give me some proper Blood Angels with leopard pelts!

Get in line after the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Guard, T'au, Flesh Tearers, Emperor's Children etc. They need new kits more than your favourite colour of Ultramarines.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Keel wrote:

Now give me some proper Blood Angels with leopard pelts!

Get in line after the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Guard, T'au, Flesh Tearers, Emperor's Children etc. They need new kits more than your favourite colour of Ultramarines.

Flesh Tearers are marines?

Man alive I want that model so bad, absolutely delicious

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The primaris castellan in the video is one of the sword brethren builds (specifically the one in the article with the plasma combi and sword). Interesting, that the sword brethren seem to have alternative builds for characters, like the deathwing terminators set. Maybe the ancient is in the sword brethren box set. Will also be interesting if the sword brethren are a completely unique unit or a variation on the bladeguard.

Yeah, I moved the "Primaris Castellan" out of the Sword Brethren set and put him with the other Castellan in the OP.

Hopefully this marks a change in things.

 Galas wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Keel wrote:

Now give me some proper Blood Angels with leopard pelts!

Get in line after the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Guard, T'au, Flesh Tearers, Emperor's Children etc. They need new kits more than your favourite colour of Ultramarines.

Flesh Tearers are marines?

I meant World Eaters. All of them sort of blur togather in one giant Power Armour-ed smear on 40k, y'know?

 Nazrak wrote:
I think the Castellan might be the absolute most Warhammer-40,000 model Citadel have ever made.

Nah, that's Coteaz. Blanche sketch, knightly power armour, warhammer, double-headed eagle, psyker, fur, Inquisitor, absolutely ruthless - nearly all what makes 40k combined.

The Castellan is great. Been looking at the pics of it a fair bit, as whilst it has first born aesthetics, I wasn't fully convinced it was... But it's power pack is distinctly first born, (as well as the helmet obviously), but the real thing is the combi weapon, that is absolutely a bolter, so unless it is a special issue carbine/flamer combi weapon then year... A first born new marine model in primaris dimensions...

The fatty not-Lieutenant is the best Marine model for about a decade.

I just need to find a way to get him into my Deathwatch...

It's literally called "Castellan with Power Axe and Combi-Flamer" in the preview video, whilst the other is "Primaris Castellan"

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Besides Librarians, what unit restrictions do you think Templars are gonna get?

Chapter Champion would seem an obvious choice.

These models are amazing. Having a sizeable collection of goffs, I was reluctant to start another black/white army… until now

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Besides Librarians, what unit restrictions do you think Templars are gonna get?

Chapter Champion would seem an obvious choice.

Gonna guess Scouts and Infiltrators as well. The cover has a Reiver there, and Incursors could kinda/sorta maybe fit.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Keel wrote:

Now give me some proper Blood Angels with leopard pelts!

Get in line after the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Guard, T'au, World Eaters, Emperor's Children etc. They need new kits more than your favourite colour of Ultramarines.

Sure, nah, meh, yep, nope, fine, yes please.

Has anyone noticed the femur bone bit that uhm... has a certain shape that uh... cannot be unseen once it has been seen?

 Las wrote:
Has anyone noticed the femur bone bit that uhm... has a certain shape that uh... cannot be unseen once it has been seen?

Well, I searched, and searched and... curse you!

Ew thats a Firstborn marine? Never mind, cancelling my preorder for the box.

Feels like GW is getting lazy with their anatomy compared to early Primaris models.

And that fat Castellan is hilariously bad

chaos0xomega wrote:
Ew thats a Firstborn marine? Never mind, cancelling my preorder for the box.

The box that doesn’t contain a firstborn marine…?

It was mostly a joke - but the fat Castellan is what sold me on starting a BT army, and hence the reason I decided to ask my local to hold me a copy.

It is probably the first marine to genuinely fit the proportions of what a marine should be, they can't be perfectly sculpted greek god athletes considering their performance, they're huge mutated monsters, that should and would have the most insane upper body physique considering how strong they are.

Controversially, I genuinely think it might be the most realistically proportioned marine model ever made.

(other than thinking the right arm is situated too low, it looks dislocated)

Due to GWs ever increasing scale creep and lack of quality control we've now come full circle and Primaris scale marines are beginning to look as squat and chubby as the original firstborn

Goose LeChance wrote:
Due to GWs ever increasing scale creep and lack of quality control we've now come full circle and Primaris scale marines are beginning to look as squat and chubby as the original firstborn

...but the Castellan is Firstborn.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Due to GWs ever increasing scale creep and lack of quality control we've now come full circle and Primaris scale marines are beginning to look as squat and chubby as the original firstborn

...but the Castellan is Firstborn.

How we know?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Due to GWs ever increasing scale creep and lack of quality control we've now come full circle and Primaris scale marines are beginning to look as squat and chubby as the original firstborn

...but the Castellan is Firstborn.

Is he the same scale as current first born? Then I stand corrected, it's just typical ugly firstborn.

The sword brethren are a mess too.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Feels like GW is getting lazy with their anatomy compared to early Primaris models.

And that fat Castellan is hilariously bad

Due to GWs ever increasing scale creep and lack of quality control we've now come full circle and Primaris scale marines are beginning to look as squat and chubby as the original firstborn

Couldn't disagree more.
The Castellan is a very faithful creation of the iconic 3rd edition cover art. Just look how grim and dark this Space Marine is. And this is supposed to be one of the biggest heroes of mankind. He captures the setting perfectly.
On the group picture you can see Sword Brethren and regular Intercessors, which don't look out of place or "squat and chubby". I recommend you have your optical bionics rechecked by the nearest Engineseer.

Because its referenced as a "Castellan" in the video, while the other Castellan model is specifically referenced as a "Primaris Castellan". I.E. Admission by omission, if it was a Primaris Castellan then it would have been stated as such just like the actual Primaris Castellan. By not including "Primaris" its Firstborn by default.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Because its referenced as a "Castellan" in the video, while the other Castellan model is specifically referenced as a "Primaris Castellan". I.E. Admission by omission, if it was a Primaris Castellan then it would have been stated as such just like the actual Primaris Castellan. By not including "Primaris" its Firstborn by default.

This is not true. Not all Primaris characters have word 'primaris' in their name.

I'd would also like to point out that EC has some old school elements as well, for example the upper part of the backpack is not in primaris style.

I don't need my optical bionics checked I have a pretty good understanding of proportions and anatomy

He's funny and goofy looking, sure. If that's what the sculptor is going for then mission accomplished.

Why try to portray it as anything but? It's not grim, gritty, realistic etc

Goose LeChance wrote:

And that fat Castellan is hilariously bad

That's your opinion. I think he looks fine. And with all those tubes on his upper torso I don't think he would survive taking off his armour. Pretty 40k for me. And while I usually don't like huge pauldrons like that, they somehow fit on this model (I guess it's the skulls).

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:

And that fat Castellan is hilariously bad

That's your opinion. I think he looks fine. And with all those tubes on his upper torso I don't think he would survive taking off his armour. Pretty 40k for me. And while I usually don't like huge paudrons like that, they somehow fit on this model (I guess it's the skulls).

Indeed it is my opinion, so we can avoid derailing the thread by challenging it.

I don't know what it is, but I really enjoy whatever multi-axis rotation they have going on when recording those models.

 Crimson wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Because its referenced as a "Castellan" in the video, while the other Castellan model is specifically referenced as a "Primaris Castellan". I.E. Admission by omission, if it was a Primaris Castellan then it would have been stated as such just like the actual Primaris Castellan. By not including "Primaris" its Firstborn by default.

This is not true. Not all Primaris characters have word 'primaris' in their name.

I'd would also like to point out that EC has some old school elements as well, for example the upper part of the backpack is not in primaris style.

There is literally nothing Primaris about the Castellan, not the armour and not the name.

 Las wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Due to GWs ever increasing scale creep and lack of quality control we've now come full circle and Primaris scale marines are beginning to look as squat and chubby as the original firstborn

...but the Castellan is Firstborn.

How we know?

We know that's no Mk X armor.

These are indeed the most 40k marines designed in many years. Absolutely love them. I don't really need another marine army, but it's really tempting.

A quick photoshopping to show what I feel is weird with the Castellan's proportions. He has super stumpy legs (like many of the old marines) and in combination with his bulk this makes him look like dwarf. I don't think he is this squat in the artwork either, though there the legs are partly obscured. I stretched the legs a bit and I think it looks far better.

Eh, I kinda dig the fact he looks like an angry barrel.

Nobody said Squats can't become Space Marines smh. Clearly the Black Templars are blazing new ground by accepting abhumans into their ranks

You can't stop the chibi marines

Goose LeChance wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:

And that fat Castellan is hilariously bad

That's your opinion. I think he looks fine. And with all those tubes on his upper torso I don't think he would survive taking off his armour. Pretty 40k for me. And while I usually don't like huge paudrons like that, they somehow fit on this model (I guess it's the skulls).

Indeed it is my opinion, so we can avoid derailing the thread by challenging it.

Um... that's kinda awkward. YOU stated your opinion like it's a fact. And my response wasn't "no, you're wrong, this model is great!". Taste differs, but to avoid "challenging" you should stop talking like you're on a schoolyard.

 Dryaktylus wrote:


Um... that's kinda awkward. YOU stated your opinion like it's a fact. And my response wasn't "no, you're wrong, this model is great!". Taste differs, but to avoid "challenging" you should stop talking like you're on a schoolyard.

It was more for everyone since I could feel the usual dogpile incoming

Goose LeChance wrote:
Indeed it is my opinion, so we can avoid derailing the thread by challenging it.

I guess a forum is the wrong place to express wether you agree with someone's opinion or not. If only there was a proper place to have such a discourse /s

a_typical_hero wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Indeed it is my opinion, so we can avoid derailing the thread by challenging it.

I guess a forum is the wrong place to express wether you agree with someone's opinion or not. If only there was a proper place to have such a discourse /s

I mean I could challenge every stupid opinion on this forum but then I'd be here all day

Regardless, let's hope that's all Black Templars get for the foreseeable decade or two.

Goose LeChance wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:


Um... that's kinda awkward. YOU stated your opinion like it's a fact. And my response wasn't "no, you're wrong, this model is great!". Taste differs, but to avoid "challenging" you should stop talking like you're on a schoolyard.

It was more for everyone since I could feel the usual dogpile incoming

I didn't like most of the other Space Marine releases, what's your point?

Goose LeChance wrote:
I mean I could challenge every stupid opinion on this forum but then I'd be here all day

Uhh..

The castellan is great! Faithful to the artwork. Not every marine is a basketball player. Being on this side of the Rubicon, I might even collect him. Crossing that point of no return is like the scene in Prometheus where the Android doses that dude with the mutating primordial worm that squiggles up into his eyes and deserves the same response - purge those maggots with fire!

 Dryaktylus wrote:

YOU stated your opinion like it's a fact.

No I didn't, it goes without saying that it's an opinion. I think you interpreted it as a statement of fact and took it as a personal insult. I apologise for calling fat marines fat. (not really)

 Kanluwen wrote:
There was mention of an Ancient BUT there's a possibility that the Ancient is built from the Sword Brethren or it was misidentifying the Bladeguard Ancient.

Hes in the background behind the tank, beside the Dread- robes and a standard I think..

I do like the Castellan - captures the artwork really well but definitely looks like he could have been a limited ed miniature..

The castellan proportions are slightly off from other firstborn. Pauldrons look even bigger than normal, and the harness chestplate looks like an additional plate strapped over the normal torso. But it does match the art.

I kind of like the Castellan, but his proportions are definitely way off. It's odd how the entire Primaris relaunch was about rebooting the proportion of the Marine line and they've maintained it with an iron grip until this BT release, when a fair few models have just completely lost the plot.

Boy, resisting just got a lot harder. What a spectacular array of models.

 silverstu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There was mention of an Ancient BUT there's a possibility that the Ancient is built from the Sword Brethren or it was misidentifying the Bladeguard Ancient.

Hes in the background behind the tank, beside the Dread- robes and a standard I think..

That's the existing Bladeguard Ancient from the Indomitus box.

No Ancient would be the first mistake made by that rumour dump, although I don't think it undermines the veracity much, it's already got so much right + this is one case where it seems a fair enough mistake to make.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Boy, resisting just got a lot harder. What a spectacular array of models.

 silverstu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There was mention of an Ancient BUT there's a possibility that the Ancient is built from the Sword Brethren or it was misidentifying the Bladeguard Ancient.

Hes in the background behind the tank, beside the Dread- robes and a standard I think..

That's the existing Bladeguard Ancient from the Indomitus box.

No Ancient would be the first mistake made by that rumour dump, although I don't think it undermines the veracity much, it's already got so much right + this is one case where it seems a fair enough mistake to make.

I can entirely see him confusing the generic Bladeguard Ancient in the back of that one image for a Black Templar Ancient, if he got access to the official photos before we did - it's, afterall, one of the very few not-Black Templars in that photo, and the rest are pretty obvious.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:

And that fat Castellan is hilariously bad

That's your opinion. I think he looks fine. And with all those tubes on his upper torso I don't think he would survive taking off his armour. Pretty 40k for me. And while I usually don't like huge pauldrons like that, they somehow fit on this model (I guess it's the skulls).

He looks kinda lame though. Not as bad as some of the sword brethren but still overall quite bad.

Yeah, not sold on the LT or the swords bros (the poses and the grips on some of the weapons are just weird, and the cloaks are laughable).

Really nice looking bits pack, however. (Though I'm not sold on the sheer quantity of scout bits).

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I just need to find a way to get him into my Deathwatch...

Ditto, but I'm loath to replace his super-chunky shoulder pads with a DW pad... hmm...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I just need to find a way to get him into my Deathwatch...

Ditto, but I'm loath to replace his super-chunky shoulder pads with a DW pad... hmm...

Chain it on top of the original one.

Voss wrote:
Yeah, not sold on the LT or the swords bros (the poses and the grips on some of the weapons are just weird, and the cloaks are laughable).

Really nice looking bits pack, however. (Though I'm not sold on the sheer quantity of scout bits).

If the Crusader squad has bolt pistol/ccw and bolter options for the scouts, the upgrade kit seems to cover swapping them to shotguns.

I had to create an account just to share my thought about that new BT upgrade sprue.

The easiest way to judge that sprue is to put it next to the current one and remember what said upgrade sprue is suposed to be about: Turning your standard marines into "chapter" marines by giving them bits that carry the appopriate iconography and iconic elements of said chapter.

The current one has 5 different chest piece that alone will drastically change the look of your mini, 3 of them with tabards, the rest with the Maltese cross on the chest.

It contains a lot more weapons with their iconic chains, which again are more than enough to change the look of the minis, and it also contains way more weapon types like a power fist, sword and axe.

It contains the cool knightly helmets you are expecting when thinking about the BT (I don't understand for the love of me why GW thought what people wanted when they thought about BT was more bareheads that most of the playerbase avoid like the plague because they aren't skilled enough to paint them properly, and why they are so scared of giving more custom helmets to the primaris while at the same time banning 3rd party bits).

So to resume: The old kit contained head, torso and weapons that all where very visually distinct and could alone turn a standard marine into a black Templar.

The new sprue contains none of that. Generic unhelmeted heads, NO WEAPONS (outside of a relic and the scouts see later on that post), and ofc no chest piece.

Basically you are expected to have your generic marines look like BT just because of the shoulderpads and a small handful of doodads...

And even there, the old sprue contains contains more doodads and more variety in its shoulder pads.

Again, I feel like this needs to be repeated: That new upgrade sprue DOESN'T even contain a SINGLE chained weapon, which are their most well known and iconic trait. Same for their other iconic bit, the tabard. How exactly is that acceptable?

And last but not least, it also contained vehicle bits (remember when that was a thing?! welp not anymore biatch!).
Would it have been a good time to roll out some cool Dread and Primaris vehicles bits like the old sprue to make them look cool?
Naaaaah.

On the other hand what that new sprue does is what every other primaris upgrade sprues have done, giving us the most generic shouldpad possible rather than a bunch of unique ones.

It also bloated its content with a bunch of STANDARD weapons for the Neophytes/Scouts including stuff like a grenade throwing arm, a bolter and the shotguns...
All things that SHOULD be part of the Neophyte sprue and don't bear ANY BT iconography.

Btw, why would you need to put wargear options on a BT upgrade sprue... for a BT exclusive unit? It's not as if we they just released new scouts and the neophytes were the only ones using shotguns, we are talking about the neophytes from the crusader squad sprue, ie a 100% black Templar unit.
Wtf is up with that? I'll tell you what's up. The Neophyte sprue will come with a bunch of missing gear that GW just randomly pushed on the upgrade sprue.

The result is a BT upgrade sprue that has a third of its content is the missing wargear of a BT unit... and none of it is even BT marked, and said unit is NOT a standard space marine.

So, since the upgrade sprue clearly doesn't have what you really need to turn your standard marines into "chapter" marines, what is the other obvious choice?
Buying some Crusader sprues right?

Except... half the sprue is made of scouts (ie not your regular marines), which seems to me like a very deliberate choice from GW to force you to pay for scouts when you would just want some marines.

"but that's how the BT crusader works dood"
So what about the existing Initiate squad made up only of marines as an elite unit then?

Unless GW just decided to remove that unit from the codex, how are we supposed to build that? With the upgrade sprue? That doesn't contain anything useful oustide of some very blend shoulder pad?

It's still amazing when compared to the absolutely no efforet ass-tastic upgrade sprues every other chapter got.

By the way, [HN], your chosen username completely feths up the quote system/code tags in this board software. I'd probably message the Admins to see if they can remove the square brackets from your username.

HN wrote:
... NO WEAPONS (outside of a relic and the scouts see later on that post), and ofc no chest piece.

That's because of the way GW now designs their minis. You can't have generic weapon arms and torso fronts as modern GW models are are designed like jigsaw puzzles, where their torso might contain half their arm, part of their left thigh, and all of their right leg. GW have increased the 'dynamic' posing of their models by eliminating much of the options we once had. This is why the old pack wouldn't work with the new models, and why the new pack is mostly heads and random bits and bobs.

HN wrote:
That new upgrade sprue DOESN'T even contain a SINGLE chained weapon, which are their most well known and iconic trait. Same for their other iconic bit, the tabard. How exactly is that acceptable?

Because they're all on the Cruader/Sword Brethren sprues, we presume.

HN wrote:
And last but not least, it also contained vehicle bits (remember when that was a thing?! welp not anymore biatch!). Would it have been a good time to roll out some cool Dread and Primaris vehicles bits like the old sprue to make them look cool?
Naaaaah.

It's been a long time since the BT vehicle accessory sprue was made, but I seem to recall that even back then it was seen as something of a financial gamble for GW - a bunch of big plastic plates for their vehicles that only a scant few players would ever need. This might explain why latter vehicle upgrades became icons you attach, rather than big slabs of plastic.

Screw it i'm gonna say it, imagine being such an entitled Marine player you complain about the Black Templar upgrade sprue after Blood Angels got this.

I mean, there literally is a vehicle upgrade, in the form of that flamer. Looks like the unsheathed sword is also meant to adorn a tank, like what the SoB got. Plus you can easily use a lot of the bits on vehicles and dreadnoughts. Candles, bone totems, purity seals, etc. Is it as good as a dedicated vehicle upgrade sprue? Of course not, but it's not like you can't customize a vehicle/dreadnought with what you get in that set

I have to say, BT new upgrade sprue has less chest pieces and tabards and weapons because... now BT have actual sword brothers, inithiates and neophytes kits.

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, there literally is a vehicle upgrade, in the form of that flamer. Looks like the unsheathed sword is also meant to adorn a tank, like what the SoB got. Plus you can easily use a lot of the bits on vehicles and dreadnoughts. Candles, bone totems, purity seals, etc. Is it as good as a dedicated vehicle upgrade sprue? Of course not, but it's not like you can't customize a vehicle/dreadnought with what you get in that set

That unsheathed sword would look perfectly on the front armour of a Redemptor, don't you think? Probably could put the candles on top, slap some of the icons somewhere. Maybe the giant book too.

Also, I'm pretty sure the new upgrade sprue is meant to go with the Crusaders and Sword Brethren squad, instead of replacing them.

Yeah, the bare heads are lame.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Yeah, the bare heads are lame.

Depends on how many heads come with the Crusade/Sword Brethren kit.

I don't like Mk.IV Marines, so by extension I really don't like Primaris Marine heads as they're just a newer Mk.IV helmet. I've been giving some of my Primaris guys the Crusader helms from both the Company Champion and the BT sprue.

I was hoping the new BT sprue would be chock full of them, but sadly no. I hope there are tons of spares on the new kits.

Voss wrote:
Yeah, not sold on the LT or the swords bros (the poses and the grips on some of the weapons are just weird, and the cloaks are laughable).

Really nice looking bits pack, however. (Though I'm not sold on the sheer quantity of scout bits).

Robes on top of stylized Mk X Gravis Armor was probably not the best choice. They look almost comically bulky.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Screw it i'm gonna say it, imagine being such an entitled Marine player you complain about the Black Templar upgrade sprue after Blood Angels got this.

Bruh moment: the first Space Wolves upgrade sprue was better than the Primaris one.

Seriously, I rather run old Wolves with copypasted loadouts rather than Primaris Wolves of almost any kind.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Yeah, the bare heads are lame.

Depends on how many heads come with the Crusade/Sword Brethren kit.

I don't like Mk.IV Marines, so by extension I really don't like Primaris Marine heads as they're just a newer Mk.IV helmet. I've been giving some of my Primaris guys the Crusader helms from both the Company Champion and the BT sprue.

I was hoping the new BT sprue would be chock full of them, but sadly no. I hope there are tons of spares on the new kits.

Yeah, can't go wrong with more helmet designs. They should sell an entire sprue of alternate helmets tbh.

 CMLR wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Screw it i'm gonna say it, imagine being such an entitled Marine player you complain about the Black Templar upgrade sprue after Blood Angels got this.

Bruh moment: the first Space Wolves upgrade sprue was better than the Primaris one.

Is there a single Chapter Upgrade sprue worse than the Primaris one? Or at least on the same level?

The thing that really made them superlame for me was the garbage, copy-pasted generic helmets. I mean seriously, compare the old Upgrade Sprue helmets to new ones.

 alextroy wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, not sold on the LT or the swords bros (the poses and the grips on some of the weapons are just weird, and the cloaks are laughable).

Really nice looking bits pack, however. (Though I'm not sold on the sheer quantity of scout bits).

Robes on top of stylized Mk X Gravis Armor was probably not the best choice. They look almost comically bulky.

They're not wearing Gravis, it's just customised Tacticus.

As someone that loves helmets. YEAH.

Why do you keep giving us fugly bare heads GW?! Give us cool and sick helmet designs, please!

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Is there a single Chapter Upgrade sprue worse than the Primaris one? Or at least on the same level?

Maybe BT themselves now?

And the WS one.

I don't even play blood angels and I'm still mad that the primaris BA upgrade sprue just gave vanilla weapon options. Oooh a bolter and chainsword without any blood drops? (Yeah, chainsword primaris were a few months away, but what a kick in the face)

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
It's still amazing when compared to the absolutely no efforet ass-tastic upgrade sprues every other chapter got.

Talk about running after GW while they are lower the bar.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Screw it i'm gonna say it, imagine being such an entitled Marine player you complain about the Black Templar upgrade sprue after Blood Angels got this.

Oof… ofc you are the kind of people to use words like “entitled” when talking aobut customer/corporation relationship.. Aight I guess that’s the queue to just ignore you then, since you clearly don’t have anything insightful to say. That kind of whataboutism is just mindbogglingly stupid, what you are doing is just helping GW pushing the bare lower and lower.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
By the way, [HN], your chosen username completely feths up the quote system/code tags in this board software. I'd probably message the Admins to see if they can remove the square brackets from your username.

That’s unfortunate… I’ll see what I can do about that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's because of the way GW now designs their minis. You can't have generic weapon arms and torso fronts as modern GW models are are designed like jigsaw puzzles, where their torso might contain half their arm, part of their left thigh, and all of their right leg. GW have increased the 'dynamic' posing of their models by eliminating much of the options we once had. This is why the old pack wouldn't work with the new models, and why the new pack is mostly heads and random bits and bobs.

I’m sadly fully aware of the god awful direction GW is dragging their minies with the rise of monoposes that extremely damages the hobby potential of the minies for a marginal gain in “dynamism”, but that’s really a problem of their own making. Having generic chest plates as separate pieces would have been pretty easy to do, even with their monopose stuff, and yet they decided to cut yet another corner and here we are now.
And while it explains the lack of torsos, it doesn’t explains the total lack of weapons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because they're all on the Cruader/Sword Brethren sprues, we presume.

I’ll be quoting myself here
Except... half the sprue is made of scouts (ie not your regular marines), which seems to me like a very deliberate choice from GW to force you to pay for scouts when you would just want some marines.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's been a long time since the BT vehicle accessory sprue was made, but I seem to recall that even back then it was seen as something of a financial gamble for GW - a bunch of big plastic plates for their vehicles that only a scant few players would ever need. This might explain why latter vehicle upgrades became icons you attach, rather than big slabs of plastic.

The cost of plastic was never, EVER a factor in the price of production or sell for the sprues, I know it, you know it, everyone knows it.
The only real reason here is simple, it’s the same than why the primaris upgrade sprues have generic and bland shoulderpads compared to the firstborn ones (it’s very stricking when comparing blood angles, dark angles or even ultramarines to their new versions): Why bother? People will buy it anyway.
Just shrugging and dropping an excuse for it doesn’t help.

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, there literally is a vehicle upgrade, in the form of that flamer. Looks like the unsheathed sword is also meant to adorn a tank, like what the SoB got. Plus you can easily use a lot of the bits on vehicles and dreadnoughts. Candles, bone totems, purity seals, etc. Is it as good as a dedicated vehicle upgrade sprue? Of course not, but it's not like you can't customize a vehicle/dreadnought with what you get in that set

You mean the Multimelta?
But that’s not really what I mean by vehicle upgrades and I hope you know it.
And just because I can glue any part of the sprue, including the sprue frame itself to a vehicle doesn’t mean it’s a good alternative to actual real part made for vehicles.

 Galas wrote:
I have to say, BT new upgrade sprue has less chest pieces and tabards and weapons because... now BT have actual sword brothers, inithiates and neophytes kits.

Yeah, but as I said, to get thos bits you’ll have to buy a box that has half its contain in the form of scouts that you don’t really care.

 CMLR wrote:
Bruh moment: the first Space Wolves upgrade sprue was better than the Primaris one.

It’s sadly the case for all the primaris upgrade kits, they are all without exception noticeably worse than the old one.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Yeah, can't go wrong with more helmet designs. They should sell an entire sprue of alternate helmets tbh.

So like… an “upgrade sprue”?
Oh wait, they decided to slap a bunch of bareheads in there instead.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, something else I've noticed with that update that is pretty funny:

The minis that has been received the best are the character based on the old MG design, and the one in particular that most people seems to find the best of the lot is literally based on one of the most famous and seminal piece of Blanche's art for warhammer.

It's as if... as if the people at GW today couldn't come even remotely close to what the people at their spot were doing 2 decades ago.

I imagine GW's first attempt at a "Head Sprue" would just be 12 screaming bald heads. And you'd get two of the same sprue.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, there literally is a vehicle upgrade, in the form of that flamer. Looks like the unsheathed sword is also meant to adorn a tank, like what the SoB got. Plus you can easily use a lot of the bits on vehicles and dreadnoughts. Candles, bone totems, purity seals, etc. Is it as good as a dedicated vehicle upgrade sprue? Of course not, but it's not like you can't customize a vehicle/dreadnought with what you get in that set

That unsheathed sword would look perfectly on the front armour of a Redemptor, don't you think? Probably could put the candles on top, slap some of the icons somewhere. Maybe the giant book too.

Also, I'm pretty sure the new upgrade sprue is meant to go with the Crusaders and Sword Brethren squad, instead of replacing them.

Looks like 5 templar crosses with flat backs for vehicles, mounted sword, and a pintle multimelta all specifically for vehicles, and the purity seals, bones, candles, lanterns, and book all look vehicle compatible.

Other notes. Crusader helmets relic looks both cool and like a he-man character at the same time.
Decal sheet in the upgrade set is different to the one in the army box and potentially unit boxes.
Looks like 3 chained chainswords, 3 chained assault bolters, 4 chained bolt pistols, axe and sword with chains per sprue in the crusader kit, all with the normal flat shoulder mount.
Sword brethren add chained weapons 2 pistols, 2 chain swords, power sword, maul, axe, thunder hammer, flame and plasma pistols, and excessively a chained pair of lightning claws.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I imagine GW's first attempt at a "Head Sprue" would just be 12 screaming bald heads. And you'd get two of the same sprue.

It's so accurate it actually hurts.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, not sold on the LT or the swords bros (the poses and the grips on some of the weapons are just weird, and the cloaks are laughable).

Really nice looking bits pack, however. (Though I'm not sold on the sheer quantity of scout bits).

If the Crusader squad has bolt pistol/ccw and bolter options for the scouts, the upgrade kit seems to cover swapping them to shotguns.

Yeah, see... that's bad. The kit should contain the unit's weapon options. They shouldn't be eating space in a completely different kit.

 GaroRobe wrote:
I don't even play blood angels and I'm still mad that the primaris BA upgrade sprue just gave vanilla weapon options. Oooh a bolter and chainsword without any blood drops? (Yeah, chainsword primaris were a few months away, but what a kick in the face)

Generic knife and chainsword for the Lemon's Wolves. Out of all the Chapters.

Sallies barely managed to dodge it.

Then you got IF, IH, RG and WS and you got Cegorach'd.

[quote=[HN] 800235 11231079 null]

 CMLR wrote:
Bruh moment: the first Space Wolves upgrade sprue was better than the Primaris one.

It’s sadly the case for all the primaris upgrade kits, they are all without exception noticeably worse than the old one.

Voss wrote:

Yeah, see... that's bad. The kit should contain the unit's weapon options. They shouldn't be eating space in a completely different kit.

I find mindblowing and frankly sad that this fact seems not not bother many people around here tbh.

 GaroRobe wrote:
I don't even play blood angels and I'm still mad that the primaris BA upgrade sprue just gave vanilla weapon options. Oooh a bolter and chainsword without any blood drops? (Yeah, chainsword primaris were a few months away, but what a kick in the face)

After seeing how GW frankly rushed the job for the otehr factions I decided to stock pile the current upgrade sprue for the BT, and I frankly dont regret.

 CMLR wrote:
No. See: WS.

TBF, that was just a "bike upgrade" sprue, not a full one... but yeah, it was pretty limited and bad.

 CMLR wrote:
[HN], your nickname is troublesome for quoting.

I know I've tried to reach the mods to change that.

Voss wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, not sold on the LT or the swords bros (the poses and the grips on some of the weapons are just weird, and the cloaks are laughable).

Really nice looking bits pack, however. (Though I'm not sold on the sheer quantity of scout bits).

If the Crusader squad has bolt pistol/ccw and bolter options for the scouts, the upgrade kit seems to cover swapping them to shotguns.

Yeah, see... that's bad. The kit should contain the unit's weapon options. They shouldn't be eating space in a completely different kit.

[quote=[HN] 800235 11231132 null]
I find mindblowing and frankly sad that this fact seems not not bother many people around here tbh.

Goose LeChance wrote:

Just be glad you haven't been called a Black Knight yet

Is that even a thing?
Hot damn, looks like the fanboys are getting creative with their attacks these days.

Anyway, I literally just dropped here a couple of hours ago, so there's still plenty of time for some very sad individual to throw some pretty hilarious attempt at insults my way for pointing out what is just very basic facts at this point, I'll take that as some cute badge of honor to show during my girl scout sleepovers.

It's not very creative, TBH. They should be calling us Dark Knights.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Other notes. Crusader helmets relic looks both cool and like a he-man character at the same time.

I think it's a Black Templar-i-fied version of this helmet from the Ven Dread kit.

The sad part is that 3rd parties like Forge of Mars got the design for crusader helmet just right, like the kind of stuff we saw on some artworks back in the old BT codex days.


This is the kind of stuff I was expecting to get on the upgrade sprue... or the templar sprue... or the sword breathren sprue... But instead we got one that looks derpy and is supposed to be a relic on the ugprade sprue (did nobody told them that upgrade sprues are something people are probably going to want multiple of?) and one that looks kinda like it... but with eyes that looks strangely cartoony in their implementation, as alternative helmet for the high marshal.

Never was a fan of that helmet. What, Iron Armor not good enough for you loyalists??

Well, I was thinking about ordering a couple of the FB BT Chapter Upgrade boxes to kit out my remaining NoS FB, but it seems that with the announcement of a Primaris Upgrade sprue, they completely removed the FB one. I highly doubt they're going to release a full BT FB Crusade Squad box with all the upgrades, so it really does seem like they're angling to slowly but surely completely squat the FB line. I get the feeling that they only updated FB to 2W so that people wouldn't completely abandon the SM faction due to so few viable options in the Primaris range at the time, thus forcing GW to pick a new poster boy to fill their pockets.

How much you want to bet they make the Primaris 3W with 10thEd in a couple years, then send all remaining FB to Legends at the start of 11thEd a couple years after that? It'll give them just enough time to make Primaris copies of every FB unit so they can say they aren't taking any options away while forcing all long time SM players to restart their collection due to all FB models being unplayable. That way they can sell everyone the same products they already had under a slightly new appearance and with Primaris post-it noted into the name.

 SergentSilver wrote:
How much you want to bet they make the Primaris 3W with 10thEd in a couple years, then send all remaining FB to Legends at the start of 11thEd a couple years after that? It'll give them just enough time to make Primaris copies of every FB unit so they can say they aren't taking any options away while forcing all long time SM players to restart their collection due to all FB models being unplayable. That way they can sell everyone the same products they already had under a slightly new appearance and with Primaris post-it noted into the name.

Nah, that would just break the game and risk alienating too many people for no reason.
The simple fact that they gave all marines 2W is a proof that their plan of making "supa marine" didn't worked as well as they hoped and they lost a lot more players in the process than they expected.

I think the obvious path they are going toward is simply to erase the whole distinction between FB and Primaris, just like they removed the distinction between Cataphractii and Tartaros to roll them under the "relic" tag.
A marine will be just a marine again without distinction of generation, the primaris will just be MK10 armor and that's it.

They are probably going to just remove all the FB from sale at some point OR (more probably) use HH2.0 to roll out true scalled FB that are the same size than primaris, because everyone know that the primaris thing has alienated quite a decent chunk of their consumers and the only way to fix that is to bring back the old marin looks.

They may even rerelease the intercessors and other primaris units to make them mixed other mark of armors that have been truescalled, and everyone will pretend the whole primaris thing never really happen, or was just "a new armor type" and nothing much.

Is this the first time we are seeing a primaris Combi-weapon (called auto-plasma in the video)? So basically a plasma gun on top of an auto bolt rifle.

I no see a problem with GW converting all the SM líne into primaris scale outside the change in desing ethos GW has now to not allow compatibility between kits. But that has nothing to do with primaris, they are doing It with everything.

I wouldn't say no to a "Primaris Scout Squad", if only to reduce the amount of man-chin Scouts that exist.

 bullyboy wrote:
Is this the first time we are seeing a primaris Combi-weapon (called auto-plasma in the video)? So basically a plasma gun on top of an auto bolt rifle.

There's also Helbrecht.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HN wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Screw it i'm gonna say it, imagine being such an entitled Marine player you complain about the Black Templar upgrade sprue after Blood Angels got this.

Oof… ofc you are the kind of people to use words like “entitled” when talking aobut customer/corporation relationship.. Aight I guess that’s the queue to just ignore you then, since you clearly don’t have anything insightful to say. That kind of whataboutism is just mindbogglingly stupid, what you are doing is just helping GW pushing the bare lower and lower.

Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Is this the first time we are seeing a primaris Combi-weapon (called auto-plasma in the video)? So basically a plasma gun on top of an auto bolt rifle.

There's also Helbrecht.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HN wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Screw it i'm gonna say it, imagine being such an entitled Marine player you complain about the Black Templar upgrade sprue after Blood Angels got this.

Oof… ofc you are the kind of people to use words like “entitled” when talking aobut customer/corporation relationship.. Aight I guess that’s the queue to just ignore you then, since you clearly don’t have anything insightful to say. That kind of whataboutism is just mindbogglingly stupid, what you are doing is just helping GW pushing the bare lower and lower.

Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Wasn't the current upgrade kit because Templars didn't have any dedicated plastic kits? So they are now replacing it with 2 dedicated Templar infantry kits full of bits AND an upgrade kit in addition to a suite of plastic characters and its not good enough???
Have they shown the sprues yet from the new crusader and sword brethren? Is this not where you'll get your weapons covered in chains etc..To me it looks like you re getting a ton of new bitsto customise your models

BT getting every single one of their Characters redone, getting additional models (2 Castellans) AND a Crusade squad AND a Sword Brethren box AND an upgrade sprue... there is little to complain about from a quantity and quality side.

Everything you had with your Firstborn is now there upscaled with finer details. You can complain about the distribution of bits into different kits, but that is complaining on a very high level.

It is an excellent release for this faction.

a_typical_hero wrote:
BT getting every single one of their Characters redone, getting additional models (2 Castellans) AND a Crusade squad AND a Sword Brethren box AND an upgrade sprue... there is little to complain about from a quantity and quality side.

Just a minor nitpick - they only got the firstborn Castellan. The Primaris Castellan is built from the Sword Brethren box as an option.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wouldn't say no to a "Primaris Scout Squad", if only to reduce the amount of man-chin Scouts that exist.

It's the rumour that's going to be one of the Kill Team boxes?

Big chungus Castellan confirmed to be Primaris by rhe Warcom team on twitter

chaos0xomega wrote:
Big chungus Castellan confirmed to be Primaris by rhe Warcom team on twitter

Bah! Got a link? (They said yesterday he wasn't, as did Knotley and some other GW staffers...)

beast_gts wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Big chungus Castellan confirmed to be Primaris by rhe Warcom team on twitter

Bah! Got a link? (They said yesterday he wasn't, as did Knotley and some other GW staffers...)

https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1445306325995606017

Have to say I'd love an extra upgrade sprue with relics and extra bits for the xenos factions as well as the marine factions. Could add a lot to existing model ranges.

No idea who Knotley is but it looks like they deleted their posts on the topic, so I'm taking that as further confirmation that its a Primaris mini.

I really wish they would just get rid of the transport restrictions. Then people really wouldn't care if something is Primaris or not.

Aren't we usually warned not to put too much faith in the statements of GW's social media team? This looks like a pretty solid case of them not knowing what's going on. The Castellan's armor doesn't look to have any Mk.X parts.

I guess I can believe it's a Primaris Marine who got stuck trying to wear kiddy Marine armor and was given a plus sized chest plate so he could breathe while the Techmarines figure out how to get him out of it again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I really wish they would just get rid of the transport restrictions. Then people really wouldn't care if something is Primaris or not.

Indeed. This is such nonsense.

I assume the transport restrictions are part of a long-term effort to phase out firstborn and replace the rhino/land raider with Primaris hover-equivalents. Allowing Primaris to hitch a ride in the old transports would throw a wrench in the works as it would mean an uptick in sales in firstborn minis which would result in fans being pissed off that their recently purchased minis are no longer usable.

In any case, I assume the Castellans kit will be labeled as Artificer Armor or something.

I always thought it was so people will buy the hovertanks, as opposed to buying the mini marines as you suggest. Primaris in tracked transport would be the ideal scenario for me (I don't play games so it doesn't actually matter at all, but yeah, I prefer the old tanks + new marines as opposed to the other way around).

chaos0xomega wrote:
No idea who Knotley is but it looks like they deleted their posts on the topic, so I'm taking that as further confirmation that its a Primaris mini.

He's the voice behind the camera for the Live stuff, and yeah - not a good sign when they delete tweets.

 The Phazer wrote:

I wouldn't say no to a "Primaris Scout Squad", if only to reduce the amount of man-chin Scouts that exist.

It's the rumour that's going to be one of the Kill Team boxes?

Rumour started after the Neophytes got revealed and after the Big Rumour got shown to be fairly accurate.

It's a bit of low-hanging fruit though. "Primaris Scouts" have been rumoured since basically day one, usually as a negative thing by people trying to make a case for the squatting of Firstborn. GW's gone out of their way to make it clear that Scouts are still around and that they're supposed to still be closer to their initial format.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

beast_gts wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
No idea who Knotley is but it looks like they deleted their posts on the topic, so I'm taking that as further confirmation that its a Primaris mini.

He's the voice behind the camera for the Live stuff, and yeah - not a good sign when they delete tweets.

He's not a member of the Community team, nor a GW staffer officially. He's the moderator for their livestreams.

Some of the posts were getting trolled hard from what I'd seen.

 silverstu wrote:
Have to say I'd love an extra upgrade sprue with relics and extra bits for the xenos factions as well as the marine factions. Could add a lot to existing model ranges.

Kill team is sort of covering that with those upgrade sprues, but agreed.

Vows!






Now, all you need to do is remember your Space Marine rules, your Chapter rules, your current Combat Doctrine, how your Chapter affects said Combat Doctrine, your Vow, your Passion, the aura from the Warlord Trait, and the Castellan, and the Marshall and the prayer from the Chaplain, and the strat you played at the start of the round! So accessible!!!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Now, all you need to do is remember your Space Marine rules, your Chapter rules, your current Combat Doctrine, how your Chapter affects said Combat Doctrine, your Vow, your Passion, the aura from the Warlord Trait, and the Castellan, and the Marshall and the prayer from the Chaplain, and the strat you played at the start of the round! So accessible!!!

40k really works better in a simulation where the computer can remember all of that for you.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Now, all you need to do is remember your Space Marine rules, your Chapter rules, your current Combat Doctrine, how your Chapter affects said Combat Doctrine, your Vow, your Passion, the aura from the Warlord Trait, and the Castellan, and the Marshall and the prayer from the Chaplain, and the strat you played at the start of the round! So accessible!!!

40k really works better in a simulation where the computer can remember all of that for you.

I tought the same after playing a necromancer build in Wrath of the Rigtheous. Some Games , like bloodbowl, play much better on computer

#1 issue for 40k atm is that you have too many sources of rules - I don't mean too many rulebooks (though thats a problem too), I just mean that you can generate modifiers, abilities, buffs, etc. from too many places, many of them unintuitive. The worst is things like Canticles and stuff in the Admech codex that change every goddamned round.

Also, Abhor the Witch just seems absolutely awful compared to Accept Any Challenge

It wouldn't bother me if they would just release the burden on the land raider and stormraven. I could care less about rhinos and razorbacks (torn on drop pods, but probably should be allowed too). Primaris crusader squad should be allowed in a damned Land Raider Crusader!!

This Templar release is starting to get a little tough to resist. I might just go for it and build them alongside my current Sacred Rose sisters force, painting them in true Templar colours (white with red cross) to create a sort of cohesive force if I ever want to use them together narratively. I do have a few units marines unaccounted for that could work with them (Land Raider, 5 assault terms) to cutback on how much I add.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

1-the comparison to the BA and other first primaris wave is... shaky. IMHO it's pretty clear at that point they were most interested in rationalizing the SM line, players didn't react well with spending, and we've been seeing years of backpedaling, returning to stuff like crazy-ornate storm shields and other grimdark do-dads, and now full marine faction-themed kits, and marines have for ages had the disproportionate number of those: this isn't so much BA players were happy with it, as they weren't and it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

2- It's been a very, very long time since BT were a "sub-sub-faction." They had part of a mini-dex, 1 (or was it 3 early on?) special characters, 2 special units, the game box/book art, and a significant role in a global campaign/narrative back in 3rd edition. And before comparisons get started, those mini-dex lists have, like BT, expanded dramatically over the years and all started pretty modestly re: rules and design space. And that was what, 20-25 years ago those started?

The point being, maybe in terms of a strict interpretation of "sub-sub-faction" yeah I guess they and the posterboys of 1st are sub-sub of the sub-fists, but in terms of narrative and table presence, they certainly haven't been minor players. I don't think it's unreasonable to see their characters updated, and get some updated models, and then you're really just talking about someone who felt those didn't match what they felt were those details, noting that it will probably be quite a while before we see anything else for the army so this is what they've got.

chaos0xomega wrote:
#1 issue for 40k atm is that you have too many sources of rules - I don't mean too many rulebooks (though thats a problem too), I just mean that you can generate modifiers, abilities, buffs, etc. from too many places, many of them unintuitive. The worst is things like Canticles and stuff in the Admech codex that change every goddamned round.

Also, Abhor the Witch just seems absolutely awful compared to Accept Any Challenge

Well i can see use for it in some matchups and as you know opponent when you decide it's easy enough to use it when it's worth it.

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
#1 issue for 40k atm is that you have too many sources of rules - I don't mean too many rulebooks (though thats a problem too), I just mean that you can generate modifiers, abilities, buffs, etc. from too many places, many of them unintuitive. The worst is things like Canticles and stuff in the Admech codex that change every goddamned round.

Also, Abhor the Witch just seems absolutely awful compared to Accept Any Challenge

Well i can see use for it in some matchups and as you know opponent when you decide it's easy enough to use it when it's worth it.

Question is, is it ever worth it? Is +3 move ONCE per game worth giving your opponent the ability to turn off all your actions just for units existing? That it works only in the first movement phase and not later when you can steal objectives or something makes it even worse.

Re-roll 1s to wound on psykers is trivial or redundant (to more universal abilities that marines can just get), so will almost never matter.

It wouldn't bother me if they would just release the burden on the land raider and stormraven. I could care less about rhinos and razorbacks (torn on drop pods, but probably should be allowed too).

Well, since the novels have primaris using drops pods... probably should, yes.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

1-the comparison to the BA and other first primaris wave is... shaky. IMHO it's pretty clear at that point they were most interested in rationalizing the SM line, players didn't react well with spending, and we've been seeing years of backpedaling, returning to stuff like crazy-ornate storm shields and other grimdark do-dads, and now full marine faction-themed kits, and marines have for ages had the disproportionate number of those: this isn't so much BA players were happy with it, as they weren't and it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

t.

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.
Having said that I'm not begrudging Templar fans this release- it looks great, I'm just shocked they ae complaining about it.

Curious to see what the other two vows will be.

My guess:
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
+ Get an invul save
- Can't benefit from light cover

Suffer Not the Unclean to Live
+1 to wound rolls in melee
- Always fight last

 silverstu wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

1-the comparison to the BA and other first primaris wave is... shaky. IMHO it's pretty clear at that point they were most interested in rationalizing the SM line, players didn't react well with spending, and we've been seeing years of backpedaling, returning to stuff like crazy-ornate storm shields and other grimdark do-dads, and now full marine faction-themed kits, and marines have for ages had the disproportionate number of those: this isn't so much BA players were happy with it, as they weren't and it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

t.

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.
Having said that I'm not begrudging Templar fans this release- it looks great, I'm just shocked they ae complaining about it.

Well, it depends on why, I think. Complaining at getting stuff, sure, thats odd.
Complaining that the sculpts aren't very good? Or the bits are stuffed with scout stuff that will raise the price significantly? That seems more understandable- much the same way people were underwhelmed by the plastic banshee sculpts despite how great it should have felt to get them in plastic after all these years.

Voss wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

1-the comparison to the BA and other first primaris wave is... shaky. IMHO it's pretty clear at that point they were most interested in rationalizing the SM line, players didn't react well with spending, and we've been seeing years of backpedaling, returning to stuff like crazy-ornate storm shields and other grimdark do-dads, and now full marine faction-themed kits, and marines have for ages had the disproportionate number of those: this isn't so much BA players were happy with it, as they weren't and it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

t.

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.
Having said that I'm not begrudging Templar fans this release- it looks great, I'm just shocked they ae complaining about it.

Well, it depends on why, I think. Complaining at getting stuff, sure, thats odd.
Complaining that the sculpts aren't very good? Or the bits are stuffed with scout stuff that will raise the price significantly? That seems more understandable- much the same way people were underwhelmed by the plastic banshee sculpts despite how great it should have felt to get them in plastic after all these years.

To be fair, the only reason the previous upgrade sprue had so much stuff in it, was because, well, Black Templars never had a plastic infantry kit, and now they have two. So, naturally, all the good bits from the old upgrade sprue migrated to the dedicated kits.

 silverstu wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.

Ya see- I explicitly acknowledged marine entitlement. But, as Voss pointed out, you've still got the right to not like how GW makes your space mans look. The complaint wasn't "not enough" the complaint was "not right." And if it was a generic marine unit (in the bloated core codex) it would still be a valid if shrug-worthy complaint, but a themed subfaction is much more specific both aesthetically and as a proportion of total volume (where they are pretty limited with specific options).

Voss wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
#1 issue for 40k atm is that you have too many sources of rules - I don't mean too many rulebooks (though thats a problem too), I just mean that you can generate modifiers, abilities, buffs, etc. from too many places, many of them unintuitive. The worst is things like Canticles and stuff in the Admech codex that change every goddamned round.

Also, Abhor the Witch just seems absolutely awful compared to Accept Any Challenge

Well i can see use for it in some matchups and as you know opponent when you decide it's easy enough to use it when it's worth it.

Question is, is it ever worth it? Is +3 move ONCE per game worth giving your opponent the ability to turn off all your actions just for units existing? That it works only in the first movement phase and not later when you can steal objectives or something makes it even worse.

Re-roll 1s to wound on psykers is trivial or redundant (to more universal abilities that marines can just get), so will almost never matter.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's a tradition for Abhor the Witch to suck. It wouldn't feel right if it suddenly was good.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Spoiler:

Voss wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

1-the comparison to the BA and other first primaris wave is... shaky. IMHO it's pretty clear at that point they were most interested in rationalizing the SM line, players didn't react well with spending, and we've been seeing years of backpedaling, returning to stuff like crazy-ornate storm shields and other grimdark do-dads, and now full marine faction-themed kits, and marines have for ages had the disproportionate number of those: this isn't so much BA players were happy with it, as they weren't and it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

t.

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.
Having said that I'm not begrudging Templar fans this release- it looks great, I'm just shocked they ae complaining about it.

Well, it depends on why, I think. Complaining at getting stuff, sure, thats odd.
Complaining that the sculpts aren't very good? Or the bits are stuffed with scout stuff that will raise the price significantly? That seems more understandable- much the same way people were underwhelmed by the plastic banshee sculpts despite how great it should have felt to get them in plastic after all these years.

To be fair, the only reason the previous upgrade sprue had so much stuff in it, was because, well, Black Templars never had a plastic infantry kit, and now they have two. So, naturally, all the good bits from the old upgrade sprue migrated to the dedicated kits.

Mostly a good way of looking at it, I think. Templars certainly get a load of specific bits with this release.

It's worth considering though that design paradigms now and fifteen years ago differ significantly. Marines then had far greater interchangeability and fewer variations like the myriad plus one bolt weapons we have now, and the old Templars upgrade sprue felt a lot more valuable because it could be applied almost universally. The new sprue has far greater limitations. Having one of each relic is cool. Having multiples isn't worth much. Weapons specific to Scouts don't account at all for the very large variety of Primaris kits that already exist and only upgrade a single new kit that could have had those bits instead. Chained weapons don't exist because providing even one of each Primaris bolt weapon would take up an entire sprue on its own. Getting most of the interchangeability on Primaris from heads and shoulder pads, the ratio of those to other stuff on the sprue does not bode well for the eventual price of the sprue nor repeat buys to get enough of the desirable bits for a whole army.

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

Voss wrote:
Re-roll 1s to wound on psykers is trivial or redundant (to more universal abilities that marines can just get), so will almost never matter.

Not really easy to cover everything. They could drop LTs for something else and then it's all upside against Thousand Sons and GK.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

To be fair, the only reason the previous upgrade sprue had so much stuff in it, was because, well, Black Templars never had a plastic infantry kit, and now they have two. So, naturally, all the good bits from the old upgrade sprue migrated to the dedicated kits.

When you're right, you're right. Good point!

 bullyboy wrote:
It wouldn't bother me if they would just release the burden on the land raider and stormraven. I could care less about rhinos and razorbacks (torn on drop pods, but probably should be allowed too). Primaris crusader squad should be allowed in a damned Land Raider Crusader!!

This is what you get for using Steroid Bois instead of Proper Marines...

Have to wonder if the ancient in the latest article picture is the rumored BT ancient. Which is just the blade guard ancient with some bits swapped in. Not the first time leaks have mistaken an already released model for something new.

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

As a minor quibble...

Black Templars have been a "Codex" chapter since they got rolled back in however long ago. They had every single release that everyone else did. From Centurions to Primaris, they've been there. They just haven't gotten things that match their aesthetic.

Fast forward to now and they're getting:
-A dedicated Lieutenant(Castellan) in Primaris and non-Primaris forms as a model.
-Helbrecht
-Grimaldus
-Crusader Squad
-Sword Brethren
-One of the most significant upgrade frames to date, which includes Chapter/Crusade Relics and a whole other weapon option for the Neophytes within the Crusader Squad.

By comparison? If you weren't Ultramarines or one of the snowflake books, you got...
-Primaris named character
-Upgrade sprue, doubled, that had standard options and shoulder pads with an itty bitty transfer sheet that could maybe do a single squad.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Now, all you need to do is remember your Space Marine rules, your Chapter rules, your current Combat Doctrine, how your Chapter affects said Combat Doctrine, your Vow, your Passion, the aura from the Warlord Trait, and the Castellan, and the Marshall and the prayer from the Chaplain, and the strat you played at the start of the round! So accessible!!!

You forgot yours stratagems too.

I've started playing in 3rd, and back then playing the game was way, WAY more straightforward, and yet way more strategical (the removal of vehicle facing and templates just totally annihilated the positioning strategy side of the game, but they had to remove it because that was "too complicated").

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

-Upgrade sprue, doubled, that had standard options and shoulder pads with an itty bitty transfer sheet that could maybe do a single squad.

Some chapters got a single upgrade sprue and only that, like Ultramarines or Blood Angels, and some like Raven Guard or White Scars got the doubled up upgrade sprue and transfers. I assume that's because Marine kits come with Ultramarine and BA and DA transfers by default?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

Fun fact, I'm not even a space marine player, I'm a god damn necron (from their 3rd ed days) and Tyranid player mainly. The only marines I ever cared about where the BT and I haven't played them since their codex days in 3rd.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
and then you're really just talking about someone who felt those didn't match what they felt were those details, noting that it will probably be quite a while before we see anything else for the army so this is what they've got.

Nah, he's just being an ass. A petty, childish, and sadly whitekhnighty ass.

Every single things I said in my post is objectively undisputable, and that's why he defaulted on the very sad ad hominem (is anyone really taking stuff like "entitled" seriously anyway?) and whataboutism.

Voss wrote:
Well, it depends on why, I think. Complaining at getting stuff, sure, thats odd.
Complaining that the sculpts aren't very good? Or the bits are stuffed with scout stuff that will raise the price significantly? That seems more understandable- much the same way people were underwhelmed by the plastic banshee sculpts despite how great it should have felt to get them in plastic after all these years.

Hey look, someone that actually pay attention to what has been said rather than being an ass!

HN wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
and then you're really just talking about someone who felt those didn't match what they felt were those details, noting that it will probably be quite a while before we see anything else for the army so this is what they've got.

Nah, he's just being an ass. A petty, childish, and sadly whitekhnighty ass.

If you asked anyone else here, they'd probably call me a petty, childish ass, yes, but also an extreme black knight, and complain about me gaking up half the threads with hating on GW.

I just think complaining about the Marine relases, when they're without a doubt the most supported army in Warhammer history and have had hundreds of relases in the time other armies had a big round 0, is just laughable. And there isn't really any better word for it other than entitlement.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:


If you asked anyone else here, they'd probably call me a petty, childish ass, yes, but also an extreme black knight, and complain about me gaking up half the threads with hating on GW.

I see that you are indeed very full of yourself and not just a bit egotistic.
Also, I literally couldn't care less about what "other marines" get, by yelling "BUT MARINES GOT A LOT SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT" you are doing the exact opposite of being "a black knight" (what a moronic lingo), you are just excusing GW gakky job.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I just think complaining about the Marine releases, when they're without a doubt the most supported army in Warhammer history and have had hundreds of releases in the time other armies had a big round 0, is just laughable. And there isn't really any better word for it other than entitlement.

Again, what does these "hundreads of releases" have to do with the actual QUALITY of the specific one in question?

Again, I'm mainly a Tyranid and Necron player, so just shove your "entitled marine player" bit up your ass and try to pull your head of of it while you are at it to answer that question :
What exactly does the volume of other marine release has to do with the quality of a specific release?

Just because they got a lot of it mean that SUDDENLY you cannot say ANYTHING bad about it?
Are you for real?

So I guess now the Necrons can't say anything about their Destroyer lord and base Lord minis or how half the new stuff they got is monopose without gear options because it was made for Indomitus without any thought for the solo release they may have later, because "they got a LOT more release than eldars"?
Do you even realize how stupid that whataboutism gak is or are you just too far gone for that?

The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

HN wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:


If you asked anyone else here, they'd probably call me a petty, childish ass, yes, but also an extreme black knight, and complain about me gaking up half the threads with hating on GW.

I see that you are indeed very full of yourself and not just a bit egotistic.
Also, I literally couldn't care less about what "other marines" get, by yelling "BUT MARINES GOT A LOT SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT" you are doing the exact opposite of being "a black knight" (what a moronic lingo), you are just excusing GW gakky job.

There are no "other marines". Black Templars are just Marines painted Black. That's all they ever were, and that's what all chapters always were, Marines painted diffrently.

[quote=[HN] 800235 11231192 null]

 SergentSilver wrote:
How much you want to bet they make the Primaris 3W with 10thEd in a couple years, then send all remaining FB to Legends at the start of 11thEd a couple years after that? It'll give them just enough time to make Primaris copies of every FB unit so they can say they aren't taking any options away while forcing all long time SM players to restart their collection due to all FB models being unplayable. That way they can sell everyone the same products they already had under a slightly new appearance and with Primaris post-it noted into the name.

Nah, that would just break the game and risk alienating too many people for no reason.
The simple fact that they gave all marines 2W is a proof that their plan of making "supa marine" didn't worked as well as they hoped and they lost a lot more players in the process than they expected.

I think the obvious path they are going toward is simply to erase the whole distinction between FB and Primaris, just like they removed the distinction between Cataphractii and Tartaros to roll them under the "relic" tag.
A marine will be just a marine again without distinction of generation, the primaris will just be MK10 armor and that's it.

They are probably going to just remove all the FB from sale at some point OR (more probably) use HH2.0 to roll out true scalled FB that are the same size than primaris, because everyone know that the primaris thing has alienated quite a decent chunk of their consumers and the only way to fix that is to bring back the old marin looks.

They may even rerelease the intercessors and other primaris units to make them mixed other mark of armors that have been truescalled, and everyone will pretend the whole primaris thing never really happen, or was just "a new armor type" and nothing much.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

Ultramarines upgrade sprue was part of the initial run which also included BA, DA, and SW. Those sets were more intended to allow for you to "customize" the initial Primaris Captain and Intercessors+Gravis models.

Each of those(including Ultramarines, whatever people might attempt to argue) received a unique Lt model to boot. SW got theirs with Tooth and Claw, Wake the Dead saw the Ultramarines in All But Product Info Lt, DA+BA got theirs with their codices before that.

beast_gts wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Big chungus Castellan confirmed to be Primaris by rhe Warcom team on twitter

Bah! Got a link? (They said yesterday he wasn't, as did Knotley and some other GW staffers...)

Http://m.imgur.com/ia7uQRA

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

There are no "other marines". Black Templars are just Marines painted Black. That's all they ever were, and that's what all chapters always were, Marines painted diffrently.

Aight, so you are just going to dodge the question.
How about you just sit down and shut up then, since you clearly don't have anything to say?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

Ultramarines upgrade sprue was part of the initial run which also included BA, DA, and SW. Those sets were more intended to allow for you to "customize" the initial Primaris Captain and Intercessors+Gravis models.

Each of those(including Ultramarines, whatever people might attempt to argue) received a unique Lt model to boot. SW got theirs with Tooth and Claw, Wake the Dead saw the Ultramarines in All But Product Info Lt, DA+BA got theirs with their codices before that.

To be fair, is there any diffrence aesthetically between a generic Marine and an Ultramarine? They don't really have anything unique about them. The laurel wreaths, the Roman-style crests, the baltea-style dangly bits, none of those are unique to Ultramarines, you get them on generic characters, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers, Black Templars, what have you.

Pretty much the only way GW can denote a Marine as Ultramarine-specific is by spamming the logo all over them.

[quote=[HN] 800235 11231630 null]

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

There are no "other marines". Black Templars are just Marines painted Black. That's all they ever were, and that's what all chapters always were, Marines painted diffrently.

Aight, so you are just going to dodge the question.
How about you just sit down and shut up then, since you clearly don't have anything to say?

Abaddon303 wrote:
11 posts in and you're already telling people to shut up. You'll fit in perfectly on Dakka...

Because my post count actually matter in the topic at hand... how exactly?
Is there a rule somewhere that specify you have to have a certain post count to point out logical inconsistency in someone else posts?
Should I wait 50 posts to gain the right to point out when someone makes argument in bad faith based on inconsistent logic and covered by selectively ignoring part of posts they respond to or is that something I can do after reaching 100 posts?

Do I need to start spamming every thread with "I'm here too guys" post like he do so I too can have an over inflated post count? How does this works, please tell me, and while we are at it, explain to me the concept of derailing thread since you seem to know about it.

Also, I was wondering... did you even realized that I only told him to "shup up" after he clearly signaled he wasn't willing to actual answer direct question to defend his previous statements, or were you just too focused on jumping to some easy conclusion to realize that?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

As a minor quibble...

Black Templars have been a "Codex" chapter since they got rolled back in however long ago. They had every single release that everyone else did. From Centurions to Primaris, they've been there. They just haven't gotten things that match their aesthetic.

There is a reason why I wrote "releases specific to them".

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

Ultramarines upgrade sprue was part of the initial run which also included BA, DA, and SW. Those sets were more intended to allow for you to "customize" the initial Primaris Captain and Intercessors+Gravis models.

Each of those(including Ultramarines, whatever people might attempt to argue) received a unique Lt model to boot. SW got theirs with Tooth and Claw, Wake the Dead saw the Ultramarines in All But Product Info Lt, DA+BA got theirs with their codices before that.

To be fair, is there any diffrence aesthetically between a generic Marine and an Ultramarine? They don't really have anything unique about them. The laurel wreaths, the Roman-style crests, the baltea-style dangly bits, none of those are unique to Ultramarines, you get them on generic characters, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers, Black Templars, what have you.

Pretty much the only way GW can denote a Marine as Ultramarine-specific is by spamming the logo all over them.

Kinda, somewhat, mostly yes, but not exactly.

If you look at how Ultramarines and Marines in general developed the aesthetic of the Big Four is embodied by and later derived from the 2nd ed Captain models with the rest of the Marines sharing the generic model line with a fitting color scheme and painted details. Throughout 2nd ed the Big Four got special characters and three of them (which is to say, not Ultramarines) metal sculpts for units that further defined their look. 3rd ed started to broaden the visual definitions in model form with bits for some of the other first founding chapters and Black Templars. The "Roman style" for Ultramarines outside of characters didn't see representation until the Honor Guard models of 4th ed. 3rd and 4th ed also added special characters for the first founding chapters (with the exception of Iron Hands), Black Templars and Crimson Fists.

For all intents and purposes Ultramarines have always been generic Marines with blingy characters. It was always implied that a generic Marine is a perfectly good representation of an Ultramarine as what the baseline is for Marines, and divergent Marines/chapters were measured by how they were different to that.

What complicates things is that while the lower ranked Ultramarines serve as a baseline from which others deviate and define their own, unique look, the same simply isn't true once you consider the officers that have a look to them that is very much their own and that does not form any baseline. They're blinged up in a style specific to Ultramarines in a way that is no different to how a Space Wolf character is blinged up to represent the Space Wolves style. When you consider how we got to the varying chapter styles, that is by throwing some of the details present on characters on normal Marines, it's not as simple as saying that Ultramarines and generic Marines are one and the same. There has simply been a historic omission of less blingy lower Ultramarine rank bits.

That's just the model side as well. With time, and especially after GW decided to describe the Horus Heresy down to the tiniest detail and let authors run wild with it, chapters/legions and their appearance, including the Ultramarines, have seen a massive increase in definition and divergence from what in the model department for practical reasons has to be represented by a generic look that can fit any chapter or legion.

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

As a minor quibble...

Black Templars have been a "Codex" chapter since they got rolled back in however long ago. They had every single release that everyone else did. From Centurions to Primaris, they've been there. They just haven't gotten things that match their aesthetic.

There is a reason why I wrote "releases specific to them".

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

Ultramarines upgrade sprue was part of the initial run which also included BA, DA, and SW. Those sets were more intended to allow for you to "customize" the initial Primaris Captain and Intercessors+Gravis models.

Each of those(including Ultramarines, whatever people might attempt to argue) received a unique Lt model to boot. SW got theirs with Tooth and Claw, Wake the Dead saw the Ultramarines in All But Product Info Lt, DA+BA got theirs with their codices before that.

To be fair, is there any diffrence aesthetically between a generic Marine and an Ultramarine? They don't really have anything unique about them. The laurel wreaths, the Roman-style crests, the baltea-style dangly bits, none of those are unique to Ultramarines, you get them on generic characters, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers, Black Templars, what have you.

Pretty much the only way GW can denote a Marine as Ultramarine-specific is by spamming the logo all over them.

Kinda, somewhat, mostly yes, but not exactly.

If you look at how Ultramarines and Marines in general developed the aesthetic of the Big Four is embodied by and later derived from the 2nd ed Captain models with the rest of the Marines sharing the generic model line with a fitting color scheme and painted details. Throughout 2nd ed the Big Four got special characters and three of them (which is to say, not Ultramarines) metal sculpts for units that further defined their look. 3rd ed started to broaden the visual definitions in model form with bits for some of the other first founding chapters and Black Templars. The "Roman style" for Ultramarines outside of characters didn't see representation until the Honor Guard models of 4th ed. 3rd and 4th ed also added special characters for the first founding chapters (with the exception of Iron Hands), Black Templars and Crimson Fists.

For all intents and purposes Ultramarines have always been generic Marines with blingy characters. It was always implied that a generic Marine is a perfectly good representation of an Ultramarine as what the baseline is for Marines, and divergent Marines/chapters were measured by how they were different to that.

What complicates things is that while the lower ranked Ultramarines serve as a baseline from which others deviate and define their own, unique look, the same simply isn't true once you consider the officers that have a look to them that is very much their own and that does not form any baseline. They're blinged up in a style specific to Ultramarines in a way that is no different to how a Space Wolf character is blinged up to represent the Space Wolves style. When you consider how we got to the varying chapter styles, that is by throwing some of the details present on characters on normal Marines, it's not as simple as saying that Ultramarines and generic Marines are one and the same. There has simply been a historic omission of less blingy lower Ultramarine rank bits.

That's just the model side as well. With time, and especially after GW decided to describe the Horus Heresy down to the tiniest detail and let authors run wild with it, chapters/legions and their appearance, including the Ultramarines, have seen a massive increase in definition and divergence from what in the model department for practical reasons has to be represented by a generic look that can fit any chapter or legion.

Fair enough, i rest my case.

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

As a minor quibble...

Black Templars have been a "Codex" chapter since they got rolled back in however long ago. They had every single release that everyone else did. From Centurions to Primaris, they've been there. They just haven't gotten things that match their aesthetic.

There is a reason why I wrote "releases specific to them".

Right, but it's important to note that it's been how long since they were a separate codex?

That's more of why I said what I did. Up until Primaris Shrike, Raven Guard hadn't seen anything outside of FW since Shrike got a model in the first place. They didn't even have transfers available in the boxed sets. Salamanders hadn't seen anything since Vulkan He'stan, Iron Hands since the Firstborn upgrade pack way in the day, etc. Only the Dornian Chapters and Successors plus Ultramarines, in the main codex, would commonly see releases.

Given that Black Templars had that ridiculously packed upgrade set though, I can understand why it was thought they didn't really "need" releases once they got rolled into the book.

On a non argument front, does it look like they changed the neck sockets of the neophytes/scouts? The neophyte heads on the upgrade sprue look like they have the standard marine neck instead of the alternate one used on the FB scout kits. If it is, that means it is now possible to do straight head swaps with the rest of the marine range, especially helmets

chaos0xomega wrote:
Also, Abhor the Witch just seems absolutely awful compared to Accept Any Challenge

The more things change...

Getting increasingly annoyed at not being able to take my Iron Hands relic axe on a primaris marine (the primaris techmarine’s axe isn’t a “power axe” for relic purposes). And seeing lightning claws on primaris BT before raven guard can use them on primaris is lulz.

Just “annoyed”, mind you. It’s a very minor thing in the grand scheme lol.

Pretty happy for BT players though. They are getting gobs of primaris (is the new LT primaris?) goodies and general update. These kits look pretty cool to me. I’d love a multimelta on a repulsor in my Iron Hands :(.

Overall, a lot more than I expected for BT, which is very nice, given that they're one of the first armies I considered starting alongside Orks and Guard way back in 5th ed. Definitely a mixed bag though with the iffy early release box, and some weird sculpting decisions but overall I would give it a solid 7.5/10 release. There's some real home runs like Helbrecht, alongside some underwhelming sculpts like the neophytes but I certainly will take more rather than less. Also good to see more variety in power weapons being sprinkled into primaris kits, I always found it quite jarring to see only swords and fists basically be the only power weapon mainstays of Primaris units.

As far as rules go, I'm glad to see they kept vows in some capacity, though the psyker one looks pretty meh overall compared to the one that lets you get assault doctrine all day, every day.

Quasistellar wrote:
Getting increasingly annoyed at not being able to take my Iron Hands relic axe on a primaris marine (the primaris techmarine’s axe isn’t a “power axe” for relic purposes). And seeing lightning claws on primaris BT before raven guard can use them on primaris is lulz.

Don't forget plastic Servitors with a frickin' Chaplain before Servitors for a Techpriest Enginseer.

Lightning claws on Primaris BT before Raven Guard, coupled with two 'retinue' styled releases when RG got Shrike as their new Chapter Master is a bit of a silly thing to be frank.

Just “annoyed”, mind you. It’s a very minor thing in the grand scheme lol.

Pretty happy for BT players though. They are getting gobs of primaris (is the new LT primaris?) goodies and general update. These kits look pretty cool to me. I’d love a multimelta on a repulsor in my Iron Hands :(.

There's apparently two Castellans. We'll have to wait to see the book to see 100% on it.

I'm having a hard time being super happy for the BT players, given how gripey some of the local ones were about the addition of Raven Guard accessory sprues and a Primaris Shrike.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Also, Abhor the Witch just seems absolutely awful compared to Accept Any Challenge

The more things change...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Test

Never paid attention to Templars before, but based on yours and other responses I'm guessing that its always sucked.

Really impressed with the designs of these Black Templars, using the old artwork as the basis of the designs is a smart move, and hope this continues into future chaos and elder releases.

Quasistellar wrote:
Getting increasingly annoyed at not being able to take my Iron Hands relic axe on a primaris marine (the primaris techmarine’s axe isn’t a “power axe” for relic purposes). And seeing lightning claws on primaris BT before raven guard can use them on primaris is lulz.

Just “annoyed”, mind you. It’s a very minor thing in the grand scheme lol.

Pretty happy for BT players though. They are getting gobs of primaris (is the new LT primaris?) goodies and general update. These kits look pretty cool to me. I’d love a multimelta on a repulsor in my Iron Hands :(.

One of the worst part of the primaris line over all is how poorly GW did its job at giving them the usual (and often iconic) weapons you can expect from the average marines.
The simple fact that they had to wait a full edition to get their most basic mele weapon, the chainsword, is mindblowing.

They are only now getting flamers, power fists are still almost non existant and the claws just showed up for the first time since Shriek.
Feels like GW thought pushing the marines onto a fully ranged faction with almost no wargear option was a good idea... because yaknow GLORIOUS MELE COMBAT or fully customized unit is clearly not what makes them cool. Nah, apparently what we wanted was some Halo wanabe. Hell, we even got a dune buggy!


Instead they have invented a bunch of new units, all more ridiculous than the last.

And they still don't have an assault jet pack unit (I'll be honest, I'm still pretty shocked that they didn't thought adding jetpack on the sprues of the assault intercessors would be a good idea.

I thought the worst part of Primaris line is that there's hundreds of the bastards and half of them look identical.

HN wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Getting increasingly annoyed at not being able to take my Iron Hands relic axe on a primaris marine (the primaris techmarine’s axe isn’t a “power axe” for relic purposes). And seeing lightning claws on primaris BT before raven guard can use them on primaris is lulz.

Just “annoyed”, mind you. It’s a very minor thing in the grand scheme lol.

Pretty happy for BT players though. They are getting gobs of primaris (is the new LT primaris?) goodies and general update. These kits look pretty cool to me. I’d love a multimelta on a repulsor in my Iron Hands :(.

One of the worst part of the primaris line over all is how poorly GW did its job at giving them the usual (and often iconic) weapons you can expect from the average marines.
The simple fact that they had to wait a full edition to get their most basic mele weapon, the chainsword, is mindblowing.

They are only now getting flamers, power fists are still almost non existant and the claws just showed up for the first time since Shriek.
Feels like GW thought pushing the marines onto a fully ranged faction with almost no wargear option was a good idea... because yaknow GLORIOUS MELE COMBAT or fully customized unit is clearly not what makes them cool. Nah, apparently what we wanted was some Halo wanabe. Hell, we even got a dune buggy!


Instead they have invented a bunch of new units, all more ridiculous than the last.

And they still don't have an assault jet pack unit (I'll be honest, I'm still pretty shocked that they didn't thought adding jetpack on the sprues of the assault intercessors would be a good idea.

The first captain ever released for primaris has a power fist. There's a powerfist in the assault intercessors, on multiple hqs, on aggressors as well.

Flamestorm aggressors? Flamers on redemptors? Flamers aren't as hard to find as you think.

Fluff wise they're monopurpose and loadout to give focus to the unit much like in the heresy thanks to gmans tweaking.

They have reasonable melee primaris units now, there's a gap for a jump melee unit though for sure, but the rest of it is barely correct.

Dudeface wrote:
The first captain ever released for primaris has a power fist. There's a powerfist in the assault intercessors, on multiple hqs, on aggressors as well.

I know. That's why I specifically said "almost non existant". The first one one of these weapons most SM sergent or character could take, now it's only present on a specific unit and very few other cases on standard marines.

Dudeface wrote:
Flamestorm aggressors? Flamers on redemptors? Flamers aren't as hard to find as you think.

Again, outside of the agressors and one random on he dread, no standard marines have it.

Hell, another "iconic" weapon they had, the heavybolter, never returned as a weapon used by a marine, which is a huge shame.

Dudeface wrote:
Fluff wise they're monopurpose and loadout to give focus to the unit much like in the heresy thanks to gmans tweaking.

They have reasonable melee primaris units now, there's a gap for a jump melee unit though for sure, but the rest of it is barely correct.

The problem is, as with everything related to the primaris, the strangely limited number of gears they have (mostly due to the fact that they are a concept born from the aborted AoS40k that was supposed to come after gathering storm).

They all look the same, and they all use the same weapons, which is basically the exact opposite of what the marines were before, and what made most of their appeal.
Sure, it's getting better... kinda. But until they just redo the "intercessors" to make them more modular and less "monopurpose", the primaris wills still have a long way to go.

I thought the point of not giving them the iconic weapons and their own instead was so it was not as easy to just carry on using the same models and say -"yeah they are Primaris" which is surely the main reason for Primaris to seel a new range of Marines to those who already have the whole previous range?

I can't believe you're making me defend Primaris but- no, they don't all look the same, and they don't all use the same weapons. Most Primaris units actually look kinda distinct between each other (don't tell me anyone would confuse an Agressor for an Intercessor), and one of their most defining features compared to their Firstborn predecessors is that they field lots of diffrent squads specialized in diffrent weapons, Eldar-style. Y'know Eliminators, Hellblasters, Eradicators, Intercessors etc.?

 Mr Morden wrote:
I thought the point of not giving them the iconic weapons and their own instead was so it was not as easy to just carry on using the same models and say -"yeah they are Primaris" which is surely the main reason for Primaris to seel a new range of Marines to those who already have the whole previous range?

That's also a good point yeah, and its pretty clear that it didn't worked. People want their marine to be marines, not generic space soldier.

And if the new "primaris Schrödinger" castelan of the BT is any indication, it may be a sign that GW finally abandoned the idea and is starting to prepare to just drop the "primaris/FB" distinction altogether and just threat the primaris (to clean up a bit the bloated mess that has become the astartes codex) as yet another interchangeable armor mark with the previous generations that will be upscalled (HH 2.0 will be the perfect excuse to release upscalled FB).

We'll see where it goes, but I would really, REALLY not be surprised if 10ed open with "new scouts", "new terminators" (both being just simple upscales) and some form of welcomed merging of the datasheets of the primaris and FB, with maybe a update of the intercessor sprues to contain more gear options and some older mark of armor (upscalled too).

And then the topic of "primaris" will never be talked about again, which will be for the better.

Probably wishful thinking, but I really think this is the best way forward.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I can't believe you're making me defend Primaris but- no, they don't all look the same, and they don't all use the same weapons. Most Primaris units actually look kinda distinct between each other (don't tell me anyone would confuse an Agressor for an Intercessor), and one of their most defining features compared to their Firstborn predecessors is that they field lots of diffrent squads specialized in diffrent weapons, Eldar-style. Y'know Eliminators, Hellblasters, Eradicators, Intercessors etc.?

For someone that would love to be a "black knight" you've only be doing white knighting as of late.

Yes. I know each unit "kinda look distinct", LITERALLY because they use different armor type, I'm not blind and I don't even understand why you thought that was a point that even needed to be made.
And this sudden decision to create new armors for each and every roles is yet another dump taken over the lore and the feel of the faction (as you said yourself, that's an eldar thing, not a marines thing).

But once you've stopped trying to compare units that have been intentionally designed to not be compatible (for obvious marketing reasons) and look at one unit in particular (as I'm sure you knew I was talking about) then yes, all the primaris look exactly the same, to the point that they are the only mark of armor that have ONE type of helmet (outside of the very punctual special character, I have to precise because I see you coming) outside of the Sergent that got a tiny skull on the forehead, where every other mark of armor before that had some tiny variant, some time rather subtle, to break the monotony.
Hell, even simple stuff that aren't tied to the armor function like chest plate decoration is out of the table for the primaris so far. EVERYONE has to have the winged skull.

Same for the back pack, same for the legs.
No variation, only the same, again and again and again.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I thought the point of not giving them the iconic weapons and their own instead was so it was not as easy to just carry on using the same models and say -"yeah they are Primaris" which is surely the main reason for Primaris to seel a new range of Marines to those who already have the whole previous range?

The original purpose of Primaris was more insidious than that. People can still use the old models now, they even have rules. Primaris probably would've gone over even better if they copied Firstborn loadouts/designs from the start.

It seems obvious they were pushing for a total reboot of 40K, I'm not even sure if they've abandoned the idea. There are too many mixed messages from GW and 40k is becoming a bloated mess of models and rules.

If you follow the timeline the reason why they abandonned the idea is rather obvious:

The guy in charge at the time, the one responsible for the canning of Fantasy, the creation of AoS and the Gathering Stom event got kicked the feth out of GW after AoS landed and got roasted to back and hell.

At this point the GS was already rolling out and the primaris were already out of the bag so it was to late for them, but stuff like the merging of all eldars under the Ynarii was just killed in the egg (and that's why they'll never be a thing).

They wanted to create a new line of Marines because Marines sell and they were running out of room to release new things.

People also wanted better scales Marines.

They couldn't just invalidate people's entire armies because they'd never have heard the end of it and it would have created massive ill will that would have made killing WFB look like a picnic.

Thus a new slightly bigger and better proportioned version of Marines came to life. Its not rebooting 40k, its rebooting Marines and creating space for their next decade of releases.

[quote=[HN] 800235 11231808 null]
At this point the GS was already rolling out and the primaris were already out of the bag so it was to late for them, but stuff like the merging of all eldars under the Ynarii was just killed in the egg (and that's why they'll never be a thing).

HN wrote:

That's also a good point yeah, and its pretty clear that it didn't worked. People want their marine to be marines, not generic space soldier.

And if the new "primaris Schrödinger" castelan of the BT is any indication, it may be a sign that GW finally abandoned the idea and is starting to prepare to just drop the "primaris/FB" distinction altogether and just threat the primaris (to clean up a bit the bloated mess that has become the astartes codex) as yet another interchangeable armor mark with the previous generations that will be upscalled (HH 2.0 will be the perfect excuse to release upscalled FB).

Just want to say that models are done years in advance. The painter of the new Crowe model said he painted it three years ago iirc.

I don't think GW had the plan to drop the distinction in 2018 when Primaries were still super new and barely explored.

Goose LeChance wrote:


Nah it was a full on AoS style reboot, whether it's been cancelled or they're just boiling the frog is another story

That's just nonsense though. Obviously untrue.

When Wha-Mu-77 is defending GW you know someone is clearly on the wrong with their criticism here.

He's just anti Space Meanies

Vorian wrote:
That's just nonsense though. Obviously untrue.

Obviously untrue?

chaos0xomega wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Also, Abhor the Witch just seems absolutely awful compared to Accept Any Challenge

The more things change...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Test

Never paid attention to Templars before, but based on yours and other responses I'm guessing that its always sucked.

Black Templar Vows in previous editions were poorly balanced. Typically, there was one that was good, one that was somewhat good and/or situational, and two that were bad.

HN wrote:


But once you've stopped trying to compare units that have been intentionally designed to not be compatible (for obvious marketing reasons) and look at one unit in particular (as I'm sure you knew I was talking about) then yes, all the primaris look exactly the same, to the point that they are the only mark of armor that have ONE type of helmet (outside of the very punctual special character, I have to precise because I see you coming) outside of the Sergent that got a tiny skull on the forehead, where every other mark of armor before that had some tiny variant, some time rather subtle, to break the monotony.
Hell, even simple stuff that aren't tied to the armor function like chest plate decoration is out of the table for the primaris so far. EVERYONE has to have the winged skull.

Same for the back pack, same for the legs.
No variation, only the same, again and again and again.

You know all marine armors are like that, don't you? They have one type of helmet, of backpack, of chest, etc... The variety comes from mixing different types of armour in older kits.

You had in some cases special types of helmets like GK or DA or BT knightly like ones that were not tied to a mark of armor, but standarized, all marks of armor have one type of helmet, one type of shoulderpads, etc...

 Galas wrote:
The variety comes from mixing different types of armour in older kits.

Sadly those days are dwindling...

HN wrote:

Hell, even simple stuff that aren't tied to the armor function like chest plate decoration is out of the table for the primaris so far. EVERYONE has to have the winged skull.

Except, y'know, most Chapter unique models. Or everyone in Phobos Armour.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Just want to say that models are done years in advance. The painter of the new Crowne model said he painted it three years ago iirc.

I know, and that's why they couldn't cancel the primaris, it was way too late. So they just rolled with it, and it obviously didn't worked so well.

a_typical_hero wrote:
I don't think GW had the plan to drop the distinction in 2018 when Primaries were still super new and barely explored.

They may have, but they didn't. In the end they went the greendy way and proceeded with the original plan of rolling a new line that was meant to totally replace the old one.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Nah it was a full on AoS style reboot, whether it's been cancelled or they're just boiling the frog is another story

That's not the case. Not "really".
The plan was obviously to make "AoS40k" by shifting the timeline, totally redoing the posterboys marines and merging the eldars, but it would have been more a soft reboot than a hard one, which is smarter tbh.

 Galas wrote:

You know all marine armors are like that, don't you? They have one type of helmet, of backpack, of chest, etc... The variety comes from mixing different types of armour in older kits.

So... you haven't read my post right?

Because as I just said, what you said is obviously untrue.
There's at least 2 or 3 variant of each mark of helmets, and the fact that you don't seem to know that is... interesting to say the least.

 Galas wrote:
You had in some cases special types of helmets like GK or DA or BT knightly like ones that were not tied to a mark of armor, but standarized, all marks of armor have one type of helmet, one type of shoulderpads, etc...

Hell, even the GK have different helmet variants, I know, I've spend the last month cleaning a batch of 200 FB helmets.

But Primaris also have different helmet variants? Tacticus Mark X armor has the Bladeguard and the Intercessor varietyes for example.

The Phobos armour haves reiver, incursor and the third ones, each one with different helmets.

And I don't know if gravis has different types of helmets.

And in 5 years primaris will have even more distinc types of their armours, just like normal marines.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Except, y'know, most Chapter unique models. Or everyone in Phobos Armour.

Still quote mining and answering with nonsens I see?
"Nuhuuu they aint all the same, lookat the special characters!" (bro, I can't believe you unironically pulled that one) "and look at that mark of armor that is totally different and dont have the same skull and wing, instead they ALL alf skull and bones" (you realize that the point I was making was that every primaris type of armors come in ONE flavor and one flavor only, right?).

You are just embarrassing yourself at this point and should just quite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
But Primaris also have different helmet variants? Tacticus Mark X armor has the Bladeguard and the Intercessor varietyes for example.

The Phobos armour haves reiver, incursor and the third ones, each one with different helmets.

And I don't know if gravis has different types of helmets.

And in 5 years primaris will have even more distinc types of their armours, just like normal marines.

Hot damn, here comes the second part of the duo.

Yes. As I've already said, primaris have different type of armors, but when you take one type (phobos, heavy, etc etc) they are all THE SAME.

HN wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
But Primaris also have different helmet variants? Tacticus Mark X armor has the Bladeguard and the Intercessor varietyes for example.

The Phobos armour haves reiver, incursor and the third ones, each one with different helmets.

And I don't know if gravis has different types of helmets.

And in 5 years primaris will have even more distinc types of their armours, just like normal marines.

Hot damn, here come the second part of the duo.

Yes. As I've already said, primaris have different type of armors, but when you take one type (phobos, heavy, etc etc) they are all THE SAME.

He literally just said Phobos armour looks diffrent between units, despite the fact it's the same type. I mean you're not gonna tell me Eliminators, Reivers and the Phobos Librarian look THE SAME, are you? They're both Phobos.

[HN] you are complaining that all primaris armors are the same... because they all have an aquila on the chest...

And you say that I'm wrong when I say thats has been the fluff forever, and if in the tactical squad you have different chest pieces is because they are from different marks of armor...


But the MKVII is literally called the "Aquila" patern because all of them have an aquila in the chest? Are you sure I'm the one that doesnt know his own fluff?

 Galas wrote:
And in 5 years primaris will have even more distinc types of their armours, just like normal marines.

Except they won't be swappable and interchangeable. That's what I meant by those days are dwindling.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And in 5 years primaris will have even more distinc types of their armours, just like normal marines.

Except they won't be swappable and interchangeable. That's what I meant by those days are dwindling.

A very sad thing. Today a friend of mine has been sending me photos of his imperial guard made mixing cadians with wargames atlantic and napoleonic kits.

And I'm here with my start collecting chaos space marines (I know they are monopose easy to build up but) thinking "Damm. Those dam amorphous soldiers surely look funny but how fun is to build them as you like mixing everything"

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

He literally just said Phobos armour looks diffrent between units, despite the fact it's the same type. I mean you're not gonna tell me Eliminators, Reivers and the Phobos Librarian look THE SAME, are you? They're both Phobos.

Damn, the reach is getting real.
Again, just stop using characters for that topic, I'm starting to get second hand embarrassment just watching you strugle that much, and YES, the phobos have SOME variants.

The infiltrator have ONE of them is a com guy that has a special helmet that goes with his special back pack and ONE of them has 3 studs on the helmet (wich is, admittedly, the most "variety" primaris EVER had).
Incursors and Reivers are half bare headed and the only variant here is the bare head, or in the case of the incursor if the visor is up or down.

WOW good job, you found 2 variant for ONE unit, one of them is barely noticeable and the other is standard part of his kit (so not a random cosmetic change).

Now please, just stop, for real, it's sad.
Also while you are at it, never try again to pretend you are some kind of edgy black knight, that's just embarrassing.