The inclusion of this VERY generic powerpack (Geee, thanks GW for that amazing upgrade sprue) when talking about the relic is... worrying to say the least.
While I really don't mind having to model the relics on my minies (I'm a huge wysiwyg guy) having that kind of very generic stuff be a "relic" would be pretty stupid.
How? The article clearly is talking about the Holy Hand Grenade and all it says is that these parts could be used to denote the model in the unit that carries a relic, not that the power pack is a relic.
The inclusion of this VERY generic powerpack (Geee, thanks GW for that amazing upgrade sprue) when talking about the relic is... worrying to say the least.
While I really don't mind having to model the relics on my minies (I'm a huge wysiwyg guy) having that kind of very generic stuff be a "relic" would be pretty stupid.
How? The article clearly is talking about the Holy Hand Grenade and all it says is that these parts could be used to denote the model in the unit that carries a relic, not that the power pack is a relic.
Well... does it tho? The image clearly contain the Orb (which is the first relic detailed) and the second relic is an Icon on a back pack.... which is exactly what the backpack in the picture represent.
I have a bunch of orbs from the old Black Templar upgrade kit that I have attached to random sergeants and HQ dudes as regular grenades just for the pretty factor.
(HN) wrote: While I really don't mind having to model the relics on my minies (I'm a huge wysiwyg guy) having that kind of very generic stuff be a "relic" would be pretty stupid.
You don't actually have to put those parts on your models to represent the relics. It's optional:
If you want to go a step further – like every good Black Templar should – you can use one of these upgrades to single out your Relic-bearing miniature on the tabletop.
Matrindur wrote: Normally I would say the second one is the preproduction version as you can see some layer lines on the axe but its also the version they showed later so a little confused here
Maybe both are 3d printed prototypes just from different points in production and they used the wrong one at first
The combibolter from the pic with the backpack inset has a mould line running down the top of it, so is probably the plastic version. Although that pic also has the axe with the layer lines, so who knows? Could be that the first pic was from a test shot of the plastic sprue, and they made some final changes and updated the studio model to match.
Huh, weird. Having just overlaid the two in Photoshop, it's definitely the exact same model, just with the arms swapped out. I'd be very surprised if the little skull isn't still in the backpack, as the highlights are in the exact same position in both photos, which is a pretty strong indicator the backpack hasn't changed.
Leaked Combat Patrol box just got posted on Valrak’s channel. High Marshal, 10 Man Crusader Squad, 5 Intercessors, Impulsor and an Upgrade kit. Looks like good value.
diepotato47 wrote: Leaked Combat Patrol box just got posted on Valrak’s channel. High Marshal, 10 Man Crusader Squad, 5 Intercessors, Impulsor and an Upgrade kit. Looks like good value.
Helbrecht (with diorama base), or "just" the new Marshall kit?
CMLR wrote: Centurions pleasing their Primarch I see.
Have to admit that they look better in black with white.
Huh. I was thinking it emphasizes how awkward and non-functional they'd be.
And the red check pattern on the third one reminds me of nothing so much as a kitchen apron out of an old cartoon or Leave it to Beaver.
A little too much red for my tastes on the elite guys, but otherwise all the rest of the images were nice....sans the centurions (dumb models).
Agreed, they have really, REALLY failed with the color scheme.
I still dont know why they have suddenly decided that the BT weapons were supposed to be red, this just makes them look like the Death Watch... but I guess they thought that since they also changed their chest emblem colour from silver to gold it was a good compromise...
But nah, I'll paint mine with the good ol and way better colorsheme thank you very much.
And while having red trim shoulder pad for the assault and elite unit was always a thing, when you couple it with the weapons and the occasional red crusader seal, it's just way too much.
Also, if anything, these picks just showcase how utterly pathetic the upgrade sprue is. Without chained weapons, knightly helmets tabard or even loincloth, these guys just don't look BT.
Despite trying to appeal to nostalgia by slapping some Blanch art on the codex cover and rolling mini based on it, the rest of their line is just painfully... welp, "primaris generic".
Good thing I'm not afraid of some conversion job and that Forge of Mars is doing an AMAZING job with its 3rd party bits, because otherwise I think I may just have passed on the new BT.
I mostly leave my BT weapons black with lead belcher lining, but I do mix in some white and red weapons for variation. The old 4th edition Codex had a comment about them not eschewing to uniform unit numbering and patterns and often squad make ups would change from mission to mission. IIRC
The Crusade Rules for the BT are miles ahead of the ones for Deathwatch, they really catch the tone and character of the faction well.
GW was really playing it safe early on but each subsequent Codex seems to really be doing excellent work with its Crusade rules.
kronk wrote: I mostly leave my BT weapons black with lead belcher lining, but I do mix in some white and red weapons for variation. The old 4th edition Codex had a comment about them not eschewing to uniform unit numbering and patterns and often squad make ups would change from mission to mission. IIRC
Yeah, I get that there are different crusades and there will be some variation to the schemes even within a unit so that is cool. Just the Red Elite units seem like they forgot that Red is an accent color .
kronk wrote: I mostly leave my BT weapons black with lead belcher lining, but I do mix in some white and red weapons for variation. The old 4th edition Codex had a comment about them not eschewing to uniform unit numbering and patterns and often squad make ups would change from mission to mission. IIRC
Yeah, I get that there are different crusades and there will be some variation to the schemes even within a unit so that is cool. Just the Red Elite units seem like they forgot that Red is an accent color .
Some accents are obviously stronger than others...
kronk wrote: I mostly leave my BT weapons black with lead belcher lining, but I do mix in some white and red weapons for variation. The old 4th edition Codex had a comment about them not eschewing to uniform unit numbering and patterns and often squad make ups would change from mission to mission. IIRC
Nostalgia time - the 2nd edition depiction of them in Codex: Ultramarines had them with blue weapons and the colour of the chest eagle denoting companies.
kronk wrote: I mostly leave my BT weapons black with lead belcher lining, but I do mix in some white and red weapons for variation. The old 4th edition Codex had a comment about them not eschewing to uniform unit numbering and patterns and often squad make ups would change from mission to mission. IIRC
Nostalgia time - the 2nd edition depiction of them in Codex: Ultramarines had them with blue weapons and the colour of the chest eagle denoting companies.
Black Templars were a thing in 2nd edition?
I thought they were introduced as the 3rd Edition's poster boys.
kronk wrote: I mostly leave my BT weapons black with lead belcher lining, but I do mix in some white and red weapons for variation. The old 4th edition Codex had a comment about them not eschewing to uniform unit numbering and patterns and often squad make ups would change from mission to mission. IIRC
Nostalgia time - the 2nd edition depiction of them in Codex: Ultramarines had them with blue weapons and the colour of the chest eagle denoting companies.
Black Templars were a thing in 2nd edition?
I thought they were introduced as the 3rd Edition's poster boys.
They started off as a codex compliant colour scheme in 2nd edition:
Then GW picked them to headline 3rd edition, and the rest is history.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It turns out that this conversion in the BT book is what was mistaken for a new BT Ancient:
kronk wrote: I mostly leave my BT weapons black with lead belcher lining, but I do mix in some white and red weapons for variation. The old 4th edition Codex had a comment about them not eschewing to uniform unit numbering and patterns and often squad make ups would change from mission to mission. IIRC
Nostalgia time - the 2nd edition depiction of them in Codex: Ultramarines had them with blue weapons and the colour of the chest eagle denoting companies.
I still honestly preferred the Ultramarine with red weapons like back in 3rd, that red had a great contrast with the rest of the blue.
Weirdly, that being wrong actually strengthens the rumours, as it means that the person who posted the rumours saw this and assumed it was real, rather than just making something up.
Probably already leaked, but the price of the army set is £125. The same price of the Dominion box so $199. Doesn’t look like any of the other set are going to be up for pre-order this weekend. Sorry I can't attach the price list.
kronk wrote: I mostly leave my BT weapons black with lead belcher lining, but I do mix in some white and red weapons for variation. The old 4th edition Codex had a comment about them not eschewing to uniform unit numbering and patterns and often squad make ups would change from mission to mission. IIRC
Nostalgia time - the 2nd edition depiction of them in Codex: Ultramarines had them with blue weapons and the colour of the chest eagle denoting companies.
Black Templars were a thing in 2nd edition?
I thought they were introduced as the 3rd Edition's poster boys.
They started off as a codex compliant colour scheme in 2nd edition:
Then GW picked them to headline 3rd edition, and the rest is history.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It turns out that this conversion in the BT book is what was mistaken for a new BT Ancient:
While it's a great conversion otherwise, the TacMarine arm looks comically tiny on a Primaris body.
kronk wrote: I mostly leave my BT weapons black with lead belcher lining, but I do mix in some white and red weapons for variation. The old 4th edition Codex had a comment about them not eschewing to uniform unit numbering and patterns and often squad make ups would change from mission to mission. IIRC
Nostalgia time - the 2nd edition depiction of them in Codex: Ultramarines had them with blue weapons and the colour of the chest eagle denoting companies.
Black Templars were a thing in 2nd edition?
I thought they were introduced as the 3rd Edition's poster boys.
They started off as a codex compliant colour scheme in 2nd edition:
Then GW picked them to headline 3rd edition, and the rest is history.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It turns out that this conversion in the BT book is what was mistaken for a new BT Ancient:
While it's a great conversion otherwise, the TacMarine arm looks comically tiny on a Primaris body.
Can't really blame him, really close to the oiginal. It's nice to see some actual love in the designs.
Hey maybe you gents can help me out - in one of the older codexes or rulebooks (I think Codex: Space Marines circa 4th/5th edition, but I'm not positive) I recall there being an image, it was either a painted miniature or a color plate of a Black Templar in a "half-and-half" black and white color scheme (i.e. draw a vertical line down the middle, one side was black the other side was white. IIRC it was accompanied by some flavor text that said something to the effect of "High Marshal So-and-so in the distinctive half and half color scheme of his crusading fleet" or something like that. I've been trying to find that image for reference for a few days now and having no luck, don't remember the name or title of the marine (pretty sure it was a High Marshal but not positive) or anything else really other than the fact that I thought it looked cool and I told myself that if I ever did Templars I would try to do them in that color scheme. Would love it if someone could post the image or at least point me in the right direction of finding it myself.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hey maybe you gents can help me out - in one of the older codexes or rulebooks (I think Codex: Space Marines circa 4th/5th edition, but I'm not positive) I recall there being an image, it was either a painted miniature or a color plate of a Black Templar in a "half-and-half" black and white color scheme (i.e. draw a vertical line down the middle, one side was black the other side was white. IIRC it was accompanied by some flavor text that said something to the effect of "High Marshal So-and-so in the distinctive half and half color scheme of his crusading fleet" or something like that. I've been trying to find that image for reference for a few days now and having no luck, don't remember the name or title of the marine (pretty sure it was a High Marshal but not positive) or anything else really other than the fact that I thought it looked cool and I told myself that if I ever did Templars I would try to do them in that color scheme. Would love it if someone could post the image or at least point me in the right direction of finding it myself.
Quick thumb through my 4/5th codex: Space Marine doesn’t show anything.
Looks like Devout Push is still alive and well in the new codex. The new vow they revealed seems to imply their super-doctrine is either gone or replaced with something different. Also, in terms of the relic-bearers, depending on how much the Seal of Sigismund costs, I feel like it's going to be the most no-brainer choice in most lists with the full re-rolls applying to the whole unit.
soviet13 wrote: Have we seen the sprues for either of the infantry squads yet? I know we've seen the upgrade sprue.
These are the crusader squad sprues
Ok that's the first time I see thos sprues with a resolution decent enough to be able to count stuff.
So let's see:
Initiate:
3 Chainsword
3 Heavy Bolt Pistol (one of them in holster)
3 Auto Bolt Rifle
1 Pyre Blaster
1 Power Sword
1 Power Axe
1 Power Fist
1 Hand Flamer
I'm also counting only 3 set of initiate legs, and 2 set of neophyte legs (same for the back pack), which indicate that this box will contain that sprue twice for 6 initiate and 4 neophytes.
If that's indeed the case then it's a good sprue with all the gear options in there (thanks god no boyz situation here), but then I wonder... why did they add a neophyte bolter on the upgrade sprue, when there's already 2 extra in the box?
chaos0xomega wrote: Hey maybe you gents can help me out - in one of the older codexes or rulebooks (I think Codex: Space Marines circa 4th/5th edition, but I'm not positive) I recall there being an image, it was either a painted miniature or a color plate of a Black Templar in a "half-and-half" black and white color scheme (i.e. draw a vertical line down the middle, one side was black the other side was white. IIRC it was accompanied by some flavor text that said something to the effect of "High Marshal So-and-so in the distinctive half and half color scheme of his crusading fleet" or something like that. I've been trying to find that image for reference for a few days now and having no luck, don't remember the name or title of the marine (pretty sure it was a High Marshal but not positive) or anything else really other than the fact that I thought it looked cool and I told myself that if I ever did Templars I would try to do them in that color scheme. Would love it if someone could post the image or at least point me in the right direction of finding it myself.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hey maybe you gents can help me out - in one of the older codexes or rulebooks (I think Codex: Space Marines circa 4th/5th edition, but I'm not positive) I recall there being an image, it was either a painted miniature or a color plate of a Black Templar in a "half-and-half" black and white color scheme (i.e. draw a vertical line down the middle, one side was black the other side was white. IIRC it was accompanied by some flavor text that said something to the effect of "High Marshal So-and-so in the distinctive half and half color scheme of his crusading fleet" or something like that. I've been trying to find that image for reference for a few days now and having no luck, don't remember the name or title of the marine (pretty sure it was a High Marshal but not positive) or anything else really other than the fact that I thought it looked cool and I told myself that if I ever did Templars I would try to do them in that color scheme. Would love it if someone could post the image or at least point me in the right direction of finding it myself.
Did he have a similarly coloured bike?
Not the black and white space marine on the black and white bike!
chaos0xomega wrote: Hey maybe you gents can help me out - in one of the older codexes or rulebooks (I think Codex: Space Marines circa 4th/5th edition, but I'm not positive) I recall there being an image, it was either a painted miniature or a color plate of a Black Templar in a "half-and-half" black and white color scheme (i.e. draw a vertical line down the middle, one side was black the other side was white. IIRC it was accompanied by some flavor text that said something to the effect of "High Marshal So-and-so in the distinctive half and half color scheme of his crusading fleet" or something like that. I've been trying to find that image for reference for a few days now and having no luck, don't remember the name or title of the marine (pretty sure it was a High Marshal but not positive) or anything else really other than the fact that I thought it looked cool and I told myself that if I ever did Templars I would try to do them in that color scheme. Would love it if someone could post the image or at least point me in the right direction of finding it myself.
Did he have a similarly coloured bike?
Not the black and white space marine on the black and white bike!
Yes, *the* Black and White Space Marine on the Black and White bike.
MajorWesJanson wrote: The neophyte bolted on the upgrade sprue is a one handed one, to pair with the arm carrying an initiates helmet.
Since that helmet comes with a chainsword, I think it's more supposed to be used with the grenade hand...
But still, it's just a very standard, unmarked bolter, its inclusion is the pinnacle of wasting space on a sprue, even more so that the shotgun that SHOULD have been on the crusader sprue.
Today's army showcase article mentions that there's enough chained weapons on the Crusader Squad sprues to outfit your Intercessors as well, which makes me think the whole Combat Patrol can be built with BT bits on every figure (Crusader Squad, 5 Intercessors, upgrade sprue). I am hoping BT are going to get some Kill Team rules that would make the CP box everything you need (plus an Impulsor).
Since I have no experience with them, I'm wondering how previous BT players use Crusader Squads? The mixed armor save unit seems weird, and now I assume the weapon profiles will differ between the models as well. Do Crusader Squads generally get more use as a shooty unit or choppy?
Las wrote: Do we know if neophytes are optional in squads or are they required?
If they're anything like the OG crusader squads, they should be optional, but with how GW makes their kits nowadays I could see that changing to have them require a mandatory base amount for baseline squads.
Las wrote: Do we know if neophytes are optional in squads or are they required?
The same rumours that got essentially everything right said that they are a mandatory part of Primaris Crusader squads. That may not be the case for Firstborn Crusader squads though.
Las wrote: Do we know if neophytes are optional in squads or are they required?
The same rumours that got essentially everything right said that they are a mandatory part of Primaris Crusader squads. That may not be the case for Firstborn Crusader squads though.
I see. I wonder if we'll still have access to vanilla intercessor squads?
Las wrote: Do we know if neophytes are optional in squads or are they required?
The same rumours that got essentially everything right said that they are a mandatory part of Primaris Crusader squads. That may not be the case for Firstborn Crusader squads though.
I see. I wonder if we'll still have access to vanilla intercessor squads?
That's all but confirmed, given how you get them in the Combat Patrol: Black Templars.
That's pretty funny because the Sword Brother is an optional build for the squad, but the kit doesn't supply you with enough 32mm bases to build him as an Initiate.
Marshal Loss wrote: That's pretty funny because the Sword Brother is an optional build for the squad, but the kit doesn't supply you with enough 32mm bases to build him as an Initiate.
Watch GW make him an optional build but force you to take him rulewise.
Marshal Loss wrote: That's pretty funny because the Sword Brother is an optional build for the squad, but the kit doesn't supply you with enough 32mm bases to build him as an Initiate.
Watch GW make him an optional build but force you to take him rulewise.
I think you are forced to take him in a 10 man squad, but if you build a 20 man squad you'll only ever have one - so if somebody buys two boxes to make a full-size Crusader Squad, they'll end up a 32mm base short.
Prometheum5 wrote: Today's army showcase article mentions that there's enough chained weapons on the Crusader Squad sprues to outfit your Intercessors as well, which makes me think the whole Combat Patrol can be built with BT bits on every figure (Crusader Squad, 5 Intercessors, upgrade sprue). I am hoping BT are going to get some Kill Team rules that would make the CP box everything you need (plus an Impulsor).
I've listed what the crusader squad got a bit earlier and saying that there's enough chained weapon to outfit the intersesors is "technically true"... if you want your crusader to use guns rather than swords... which doesn't seem to be the optimal choice.
Spoiler:
I'm glad to see the left hand is separate so we can give him a more imposing clenched fist rather than the weird open hand with rosarius... just a shame they didn't provide said clenched fist on the sprue.
I also like the fact that the shoulder pads are separate, this will met give him a little more pimp that thos rather generic black templar shoulders (again, Forge of Mars is delivering where GW didn't).
Prometheum5 wrote: Today's army showcase article mentions that there's enough chained weapons on the Crusader Squad sprues to outfit your Intercessors as well, which makes me think the whole Combat Patrol can be built with BT bits on every figure (Crusader Squad, 5 Intercessors, upgrade sprue). I am hoping BT are going to get some Kill Team rules that would make the CP box everything you need (plus an Impulsor).
I've listed what the crusader squad got a bit earlier and saying that there's enough chained weapon to outfit the intersesors is "technically true"... if you want your crusader to use guns rather than swords... which doesn't seem to be the optimal choice.
Based on the list I was assuming you'd use the chainswords and pistols on the Crusaders and the chained Auto Bolt Rifles on an Intercessor squad.
Prometheum5 wrote: Today's army showcase article mentions that there's enough chained weapons on the Crusader Squad sprues to outfit your Intercessors as well, which makes me think the whole Combat Patrol can be built with BT bits on every figure (Crusader Squad, 5 Intercessors, upgrade sprue). I am hoping BT are going to get some Kill Team rules that would make the CP box everything you need (plus an Impulsor).
I've listed what the crusader squad got a bit earlier and saying that there's enough chained weapon to outfit the intersesors is "technically true"... if you want your crusader to use guns rather than swords... which doesn't seem to be the optimal choice.
If you get your Crusaders to use all-Chainswords then you'll have 6 Crusader Marine-size Bolters leftover for your Intercessors. Or if you equip your Crusaders with all-Bolters you'll get 6 Marine-sized pairs of Chainswords+Pistols to turn your Intercessors into Assault Intercessors.
Based on the list I was assuming you'd use the chainswords and pistols on the Crusaders and the chained Auto Bolt Rifles on an Intercessor squad.
Works too... but isn't the intercessor squad in the box an assault one?
Edit: Oh nevermind they are indeed standard intercessor (tbh it doesn't really matter, it's just a weapon swap between the two anyway).
beast_gts wrote: So three different base sizes in the same unit - that's a first, isn't it?
Nope. Almost all of the Warcry bands got there a while back. The Unmade actually have 4: 25s, 28s, a 32 and a 40.
Yeah but those aren't really regular units. Just a warband from an entirely different game loosely cobbled together into something vaguely resembling an AoS unit.
My sword brethren are getting put on 32s, regardless of the base they come with. Same with bladeguard and lieutenants. 40s are for gravis, terminators, and primaris captains.
beast_gts wrote: So three different base sizes in the same unit - that's a first, isn't it?
Nope. Almost all of the Warcry bands got there a while back. The Unmade actually have 4: 25s, 28s, a 32 and a 40.
Yeah but those aren't really regular units. Just a warband from an entirely different game loosely cobbled together into something vaguely resembling an AoS unit.
He asked for units that had multiple base sizes, not a 'no true scotsman' argument about what's a 'real' unit.
Ok, so the sprue has 3 Marines and 2 Scouts, and the Sword Brother isn't a whole model, just parts to make one of the regular Marines into the squad leader. And you get two of these sprues. The lack of weapons on the sprue makes sense now.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: If you get your Crusaders to use all-Chainswords then you'll have 6 Crusader Marine-size Bolters leftover for your Intercessors. Or if you equip your Crusaders with all-Bolters you'll get 6 Marine-sized pairs of Chainswords+Pistols to turn your Intercessors into Assault Intercessors.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hey maybe you gents can help me out - in one of the older codexes or rulebooks (I think Codex: Space Marines circa 4th/5th edition, but I'm not positive) I recall there being an image, it was either a painted miniature or a color plate of a Black Templar in a "half-and-half" black and white color scheme (i.e. draw a vertical line down the middle, one side was black the other side was white. IIRC it was accompanied by some flavor text that said something to the effect of "High Marshal So-and-so in the distinctive half and half color scheme of his crusading fleet" or something like that. I've been trying to find that image for reference for a few days now and having no luck, don't remember the name or title of the marine (pretty sure it was a High Marshal but not positive) or anything else really other than the fact that I thought it looked cool and I told myself that if I ever did Templars I would try to do them in that color scheme. Would love it if someone could post the image or at least point me in the right direction of finding it myself.
I don't remember ever seeing Black Templars painted like that in a GW publication. Are you sure that it was Black Templars? Halved black and white is the color scheme of Omega Marines, and while I'm not sure when they were first published, they did feature in the color plates of Insignium Astartes that was released around 4th ed.
I look in on 40K from time to time as i love the lore and models. I paint them occasionally. But i dont play the game.
£125 for 12 small plastic models, 1 walker model and some small cards. Fookin insane. Im not counting the book as the book and rules will be FAQ'ed, updated or changed at some point, so its practically worthless.
Not only is the price mental, its out of step with things they already produce. A Space Marine Combat Patrol box of 17 dudes at the same scale and a floaty tank is £85. Why are you prepared to pay more money for less stuff? Its literally the same stuff.
Or the vangard start collecting box £54
GW models are lovely. But they only get away with the prices because you madlads still buy it.
It just flags that each individual kit on its own is so expensive these days that when you bundled them in one box the price is just too hard to swallow.
You have snipers and heavy dudes in a box of 3 for £30 and characters at £20... The dread is £40 (actually not bad price in comparison with 32mm characters).
Books are all trash bin material for me too so yeah.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Maybe if it had two units of 10 Crusaders, or included the 5-man Sword Brother unit the box would almost be worthwhile.
To be fair, most Army Boxes have been quite gak recently. The Beast Snagga ones had just 3 units, one of which was an EtB sprue doubled up. But at least they it had like, 25 or so minis.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Maybe if it had two units of 10 Crusaders, or included the 5-man Sword Brother unit the box would almost be worthwhile.
To be fair, most Army Boxes have been quite gak recently. The Beast Snagga ones had just 3 units, one of which was an EtB sprue doubled up. But at least they it had like, 25 or so minis.
None of the beastsnaggas are ETB by any measure.
You are probably confusing them for the combat patrol box.
Just wondering why people are losing their gak over this, it's not a surprise. You are still roughly getting the Marshall and cards for free. The 10 man sqd will be $60, the Emp Champ probably $40, redemptor $65, $30 codex supplement, so..... big shocker, it's $200. it's a Combat Patrol plus extra character and codex/cards.
bullyboy wrote: it's a Combat Patrol plus extra character and codex/cards.
Probably because said codex and cards are gonna be outdated in a few weeks because GW never proofreads anything resulting in tons of mistakes and misspellings, and does a crapton of FaQs and balance changes after the release of a Codex. Besides, you can get the rules online.
bullyboy wrote: Just wondering why people are losing their gak over this, it's not a surprise. You are still roughly getting the Marshall and cards for free. The 10 man sqd will be $60, the Emp Champ probably $40, redemptor $65, $30 codex supplement, so..... big shocker, it's $200. it's a Combat Patrol plus extra character and codex/cards.
It just doesn't have the value.
Look at this "key features" description:
JamesWorkshop wrote:Show your zeal by being one of the first to build and paint the new Black Templars models
13 multipart plastic miniatures, including 12 available for the first time in this box
Includes the new edition of Codex Supplement: Black Templars with exclusive cover art, plus datacards and a transfer sheet
Limited stock: pre-order before 8:00am BST on Monday the 11th of October to be guaranteed a copy – for more information, see our Pre-order Promise
Literally the first value claim is to be the first to own. Second to that is 13 models[i].
bullyboy wrote: it's a Combat Patrol plus extra character and codex/cards.
Probably because said codex and cards are gonna be outdated in a few weeks because GW never proofreads anything resulting in tons of mistakes and misspellings, and does a crapton of FaQs and balance changes after the release of a Codex. Besides, you can get the rules online.
pretty much everyone I game with buys the codex, YMMV. If you don't, sure, then this box is not for you but that doesn't make it worthless for those who does buy an army codex.
bullyboy wrote: it's a Combat Patrol plus extra character and codex/cards.
Probably because said codex and cards are gonna be outdated in a few weeks because GW never proofreads anything resulting in tons of mistakes and misspellings, and does a crapton of FaQs and balance changes after the release of a Codex. Besides, you can get the rules online.
So who is forcing these people who do not want the book and cards to buy this box?
My primary observation of the rules is that I envy all the options. BT Primaris characters actually now get a nice selection of loadouts. Also a new weapon option for Primaris vehicles and cool little relics you can give to your squads.
I really wish they would errata at least some of this gear to vanilla marines too. After all, all the Intercessor sergeant melee weapon options only exist via chapter specific upgrade sprues too, yet every chapter gets them. They need to FAQ Primaris Captain weapon options anyway, as the Imperium Magazine captain model comes with a currently illegal loadout.
Goonhammer wrote:Sword Brethren are an odd unit. They’re melee Primaris veterans and have some astoundingly cool models, but that comes at a terrible price – they’ve been bitten by the curse of the model-linked equipment options. As a result, you have to take a weird hodge-podge of melee weapons if you’re buying fancy toys for them, making them hard to specialise...
Goonhammer wrote:Their datasheet also suffers from Kommando Syndrome, where their kit has a ton of cool bits in and the new rules philosophy of “only give them what’s in the kit” means you have to negotiate 12 bullet points to figure out whether one or two guys can have lightning claws.
Goonhammer wrote:Sword Brethren are an odd unit. They’re melee Primaris veterans and have some astoundingly cool models, but that comes at a terrible price – they’ve been bitten by the curse of the model-linked equipment options. As a result, you have to take a weird hodge-podge of melee weapons if you’re buying fancy toys for them, making them hard to specialise...
Goonhammer wrote:Their datasheet also suffers from Kommando Syndrome, where their kit has a ton of cool bits in and the new rules philosophy of “only give them what’s in the kit” means you have to negotiate 12 bullet points to figure out whether one or two guys can have lightning claws.
*sigh*
So much for Sword Brethren...
Geedubs' crippling fear of 3rd party bits strikes again.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hey maybe you gents can help me out - in one of the older codexes or rulebooks (I think Codex: Space Marines circa 4th/5th edition, but I'm not positive) I recall there being an image, it was either a painted miniature or a color plate of a Black Templar in a "half-and-half" black and white color scheme (i.e. draw a vertical line down the middle, one side was black the other side was white. IIRC it was accompanied by some flavor text that said something to the effect of "High Marshal So-and-so in the distinctive half and half color scheme of his crusading fleet" or something like that. I've been trying to find that image for reference for a few days now and having no luck, don't remember the name or title of the marine (pretty sure it was a High Marshal but not positive) or anything else really other than the fact that I thought it looked cool and I told myself that if I ever did Templars I would try to do them in that color scheme. Would love it if someone could post the image or at least point me in the right direction of finding it myself.
I don't remember ever seeing Black Templars painted like that in a GW publication. Are you sure that it was Black Templars? Halved black and white is the color scheme of Omega Marines, and while I'm not sure when they were first published, they did feature in the color plates of Insignium Astartes that was released around 4th ed.
Fairly sure it was Black Templars. It was in a book I owned (which in that period of time probably limits it to either the Core Rulebook or a codex), I've never heard of Insignium Astartes so it definitely was not that. That being said the Omega Marines color plate is roughly similar to what I remember, except that I'm pretty sure it was featured as a converted mini of some sort that was meant to represent some sort of character (it looked pretty badass).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Maybe if it had two units of 10 Crusaders, or included the 5-man Sword Brother unit the box would almost be worthwhile.
To be fair, most Army Boxes have been quite gak recently. The Beast Snagga ones had just 3 units, one of which was an EtB sprue doubled up. But at least they it had like, 25 or so minis.
Technically 5 units. There are 2 10-man Beast Snagga boxes in there, its your choice whether you build them as 2 10-man units or 1 20-man, so 2 units there. Then theres the Squighog guys, which is 1 squad of 3 plus a Nob which is a separate unit, so another 2 units there for a total of 4. And then theres the hero dude with the hair which brings it to 5.
GaroRobe wrote: The sister army box wasn't too bad.
But then they re-released it a few years later for $60-70 less as a combat patrol AND added a rhino.
Sure, the army box had a codex and plain dice, but that codex was replaced during the second sisters wave a few months back
And in a relatively short time, they sprues will be included in Imperium for about £36.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hey maybe you gents can help me out - in one of the older codexes or rulebooks (I think Codex: Space Marines circa 4th/5th edition, but I'm not positive) I recall there being an image, it was either a painted miniature or a color plate of a Black Templar in a "half-and-half" black and white color scheme (i.e. draw a vertical line down the middle, one side was black the other side was white. IIRC it was accompanied by some flavor text that said something to the effect of "High Marshal So-and-so in the distinctive half and half color scheme of his crusading fleet" or something like that. I've been trying to find that image for reference for a few days now and having no luck, don't remember the name or title of the marine (pretty sure it was a High Marshal but not positive) or anything else really other than the fact that I thought it looked cool and I told myself that if I ever did Templars I would try to do them in that color scheme. Would love it if someone could post the image or at least point me in the right direction of finding it myself.
I don't remember ever seeing Black Templars painted like that in a GW publication. Are you sure that it was Black Templars? Halved black and white is the color scheme of Omega Marines, and while I'm not sure when they were first published, they did feature in the color plates of Insignium Astartes that was released around 4th ed.
Fairly sure it was Black Templars. It was in a book I owned (which in that period of time probably limits it to either the Core Rulebook or a codex), I've never heard of Insignium Astartes so it definitely was not that. That being said the Omega Marines color plate is roughly similar to what I remember, except that I'm pretty sure it was featured as a converted mini of some sort that was meant to represent some sort of character (it looked pretty badass).
Beats me. Though if it was indeed a miniature, that would likely put it in a book before 5th ed. I don't quite remember when GW shifted away from having a decicated page for showcasing conversions and non-'Eavy Metal models in codices, but the big time for that was 3rd and 4th ed. I reckon you'll only have a limited number of books to look through if you limit it to core publications:
3rd-5th ed rulebooks.
Codex Space Marines, 3rd ed and 4th ed (likely not the latter, that was Codex Ultramarines in all but name)
Codex Black Templars, 4th ed
Armageddon and Eye of Terror campaign books
Cityfight, maybe Planetstrike
Apocalypse, 1st ed
White Dwarf had a good bit of Space Marine stuff at the time of the Armageddon campaign as well, if you had White Dwarf at the time.What was that, summer 2000? 2001? Index Astartes also had miniature photos at the end of each article, but I don't think what you describe is in Index Astartes Black Templars.
TBH I'm wondering if maybe it was in Codex Dark Angels or Blood Angels (as I owned both) and I'm just remembering the wrong chapter - definitely wasn't in Codex Black Templars as I never owned it. Might have also been 6th ed era.
TLWD: Most of the stuff here is "fluffy but not better than the base marine stuff" (that includes both crusader squads and the sword brethren.
It's not terrible, and for once isn't yet another step on the powercreep ladder that has been 9th so far, but it's also not very mindblowing.
Overall they bring what the primaris have always sorely lacked: more wargear option.
The relic bearer rule is pretty cute tho, will let you pimp up random guy with some nice relics, but as often with 40k, only a handful is very strong while the rest is just a waste of point that could have gone into more bodies on the table.
They did add a cute stratagem for the Land Raider Crusader, but nothing else (a shame, just letting it embark the crusaders or sword brethren primaris would have been a good idea.
And speaking of Sword Brethren... am I crazy or did they just removed the FB Sword Brethren?
bullyboy wrote: it's a Combat Patrol plus extra character and codex/cards.
Probably because said codex and cards are gonna be outdated in a few weeks because GW never proofreads anything resulting in tons of mistakes and misspellings, and does a crapton of FaQs and balance changes after the release of a Codex. Besides, you can get the rules online.
They make these things called "pens" and they're really great for making changes to printed or written text on any type of paper product.
TLWD: Most of the stuff here is "fluffy but not better than the base marine stuff" (that includes both crusader squads and the sword brethren.
It's not terrible, and for once isn't yet another step on the powercreep ladder that has been 9th so far, but it's also not very mindblowing.
Overall they bring what the primaris have always sorely lacked: more wargear option.
The relic bearer rule is pretty cute tho, will let you pimp up random guy with some nice relics, but as often with 40k, only a handful is very strong while the rest is just a waste of point that could have gone into more bodies on the table.
They did add a cute stratagem for the Land Raider Crusader, but nothing else (a shame, just letting it embark the crusaders or sword brethren primaris would have been a good idea.
And speaking of Sword Brethren... am I crazy or did they just removed the FB Sword Brethren?
Since Primaris first came out, I've thought that it's actually a long con. It'll be 5-10 years before the Marine army has the diversity of weapons, units and rules that FB once had. If anyone can confirm, it almost seems like the exact same thing they did with Stormcast in AoS. Only now are the SE armies getting a lot of really cool and diverse weapon and armor options that allow for multiple different playstyles, and it's been what, about 7 years since they came out?
Eldenfirefly wrote: Holy!!! I love their new shock and awe strat!!! can disembark from a land raider after it has moved and then charge! This is so cool !!!
Yep. Nothing quite like a subfaction-locked replication (with a CP cost!) of the basic function of a land raider.
bullyboy wrote: it's a Combat Patrol plus extra character and codex/cards.
Probably because said codex and cards are gonna be outdated in a few weeks because GW never proofreads anything resulting in tons of mistakes and misspellings, and does a crapton of FaQs and balance changes after the release of a Codex. Besides, you can get the rules online.
If you go on illegal copies gw can never make good deal without doing loss. Copiers can alwavs beat gw on value. Books, models, copiers always can do it cheaper.
bullyboy wrote: it's a Combat Patrol plus extra character and codex/cards.
Probably because said codex and cards are gonna be outdated in a few weeks because GW never proofreads anything resulting in tons of mistakes and misspellings, and does a crapton of FaQs and balance changes after the release of a Codex. Besides, you can get the rules online.
If you go on illegal copies gw can never make good deal without doing loss. Copiers can alwavs beat gw on value. Books, models, copiers always can do it cheaper.
Funny how other companies manage to give the rules and stats for free without apparently going bankrupt, then.
Made my pre-order and so far everything I've seen from the rules only makes me more excited to get my hands on it. I'll look past the equipment restrictions for the sword brethren, only because they're an amazing looking unit and i'll probably convert a few up to be Blade Guard anyways.
Decided to pass on the launch box myself. But when the full release comes around I'll be picking up a couple(at least) of the combat patrol boxes and the Sword Brethren. I've got quite a few unbuilt Primaris kits in my pile, so if nothing else the BT specific kits will be a good source of parts to mix in.
bullyboy wrote: it's a Combat Patrol plus extra character and codex/cards.
Probably because said codex and cards are gonna be outdated in a few weeks because GW never proofreads anything resulting in tons of mistakes and misspellings, and does a crapton of FaQs and balance changes after the release of a Codex. Besides, you can get the rules online.
If you go on illegal copies gw can never make good deal without doing loss. Copiers can alwavs beat gw on value. Books, models, copiers always can do it cheaper.
Ever heard the good ol' saying, "Piracy is a service problem"?
I have always loved the law of BT but never got into them. I have decided to buy a this and make a full primaris army of them.
Though I'm not a huge fan of primaris (I prefer my firstborn), I may as well make a full primaris army because I have a gak tonne extra bought for my Deathwatch, my Conquest subscription and left over indomitus stuff that has been sitting on shelves in sprues that I will never use.
I am taking this more as a modelling project for primaris for me (though I made sure to order a gak tonne of the old BT upgrade sprues from various sites for weapon options, extra BT bits etc and some Shapeways Maltese crosses now, before the new upgrade one comes out and then will get multiple of that one as well).
I watched all the reviews/games on Miniwargaming, StickingScorpion82, Tabletop Tactics, Tabletop Titans etc and a few others. They seem ok play wise (even if they lost every game lol on those channels that played), the flavour and conversion opportunities seems super awesome and they look like have a few good tricks up their sleeve after some play testing etc has been done (apart from secondaries).
For Australia and myself, I think the box seems reasonable (if my above predictions looking at other things on their website is correct) and it will be a good project. I am looking forward to it .
How good are the new Crusader sprues...they look like getting back to the old multiple option SM sprues. Getting easier again for kit-bashing from what I can see, is a big reason why I ordered this set, not as much of that mono-pose crap (though still a lot will have to be cut and changed and greenstuffed etc, but getting better). Even the Marshal character has a few options (though is still to posed for me, I foresee a lot of greenstuff and posing in my future).
Ever heard the good ol' saying, "Piracy is a service problem"?
Ever heard the forum rule "Don't promote Piracy"?
GW's very existence is promoting piracy.
Possibly the most idiotic thing you’ve ever said.
A monopolistic juggernaut holding the entire hobby in a chokehold, free to drive prices as high as they can, while consistently reducing the quality and effort they put into their products, whilte simultenously seeking to wipe out all competition whenever they can, even if it's inside their own fanbase?
It's hard to get a better justification of why piracy is good than this.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Because there are no other games companies, no other miniatures ranges, no other paint manufacturers…?
None that make Games Workshop products.
The biggest power moves and cons that GW has ever been able to pull off is to convince most of the general public and wargaming community that GWIS the wargaming hobby.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Because there are no other games companies, no other miniatures ranges, no other paint manufacturers…?
None that make Games Workshop products.
The biggest power moves and cons that GW has ever been able to pull off is to convince most of the general public and wargaming community that GWIS the wargaming hobby.
How very patronising of you. If only GW fans were as clever as you, they’d see the light.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe we should get back to discussing the actual Black Templar releases.
I was torn on whether to buy the army box. I’m a big, big fan of John Blanche’s work so the book was a big draw. The minis look amazing. However, the box just looks very sparse. It was seeing the leak of the combat patrol that tipped the balance. I’m saving my money for that instead.
AduroT wrote: GW forced me to pirate their books if I wanted to keep playing when they stopped selling digital versions and I had to find others supplying those.
Do you not get a code for digital codex with a physical purchase now?
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Because there are no other games companies, no other miniatures ranges, no other paint manufacturers…?
None that make Games Workshop products.
The biggest power moves and cons that GW has ever been able to pull off is to convince most of the general public and wargaming community that GWIS the wargaming hobby.
How very patronising of you. If only GW fans were as clever as you, they’d see the light.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe we should get back to discussing the actual Black Templar releases.
I was torn on whether to buy the army box. I’m a big, big fan of John Blanche’s work so the book was a big draw. The minis look amazing. However, the box just looks very sparse. It was seeing the leak of the combat patrol that tipped the balance. I’m saving my money for that instead.
Spot on. Patronising is the word for that. Lotta people have been in this hobby for decades and like GW because in many ways, they're the best. But we're just sheeple apparently. We don't know about Mierce or Rackham or Illyad or w/e, if we did we'd definitely be spending most of our hobby money on those minis instead of GW, of course. Added bonus, all of the competition of similar quality are cheap as chips too. I even heard the competitors don't even turn a profit, they do it purely for the love.
AduroT wrote: GW forced me to pirate their books if I wanted to keep playing when they stopped selling digital versions and I had to find others supplying those.
I was extremely annoyed by them stopping digital sales. However nobody ‘forced’ you to pirate them. You wanted to keep playing so you wanted to pirate them.
AduroT wrote: GW forced me to pirate their books if I wanted to keep playing when they stopped selling digital versions and I had to find others supplying those.
Do you not get a code for digital codex with a physical purchase now?
He is being facetious...of course get a code etc...
I think people have turned this thread into: they think what they deserve, instead of paying for a privilege/something which is optional...
I hope that Black Templar codex has digital codes, it’s nice and I don’t want it getting messed up in my carry bag.
And y’know, they’re going to FAQ it anyways so I might as well have a version that can be updated easily without resorting to photocopying it or damaging the book.
Getting my box from my FLGS with an additional discount. Only the cards are something I wouldn't get normally, but even then it is still cheaper then buying it solo later.
Despite the apparent consensus on the lifetime of a codex, I like to have a physical copy. Will be good for 2-4 years.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Because there are no other games companies, no other miniatures ranges, no other paint manufacturers…?
None that make Games Workshop products.
The biggest power moves and cons that GW has ever been able to pull off is to convince most of the general public and wargaming community that GWIS the wargaming hobby.
How very patronising of you. If only GW fans were as clever as you, they’d see the light.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe we should get back to discussing the actual Black Templar releases.
I was torn on whether to buy the army box. I’m a big, big fan of John Blanche’s work so the book was a big draw. The minis look amazing. However, the box just looks very sparse. It was seeing the leak of the combat patrol that tipped the balance. I’m saving my money for that instead.
Spot on. Patronising is the word for that. Lotta people have been in this hobby for decades and like GW because in many ways, they're the best. But we're just sheeple apparently. We don't know about Mierce or Rackham or Illyad or w/e, if we did we'd definitely be spending most of our hobby money on those minis instead of GW, of course. Added bonus, all of the competition of similar quality are cheap as chips too. I even heard the competitors don't even turn a profit, they do it purely for the love.
A lot of us do look at other games etc, you have to look at the viability of the game. Like I love the models but if it is going to go out of business soon what is the point in buying??? Like I want to buy Arena Rex, but will give them a few more years and if still around and will buy it.
GW is a main hobby stayer. Cause has the rep and the lastability it will have presence over a small company, in 5 years ye that random company maybe defunct, but I have this model since the 80's from GW and is still good... etc.
Back to topic... as I have stated before for AU the BT box is a great deal and the models are a vast improvement on previous start boxes (as in the sprues being versatile and not as mono-pose).
AduroT wrote: GW forced me to pirate their books if I wanted to keep playing when they stopped selling digital versions and I had to find others supplying those.
Do you not get a code for digital codex with a physical purchase now?
You know the app doesn’t have all the rules in the Codexes, right? It also is missing some books entirely.
AduroT wrote: GW forced me to pirate their books if I wanted to keep playing when they stopped selling digital versions and I had to find others supplying those.
Do you not get a code for digital codex with a physical purchase now?
You know the app doesn’t have all the rules in the Codexes, right? It also is missing some books entirely.
You could... buy a physical book and you know, read it? The only "in game" rules missing from the app are the crusade ones, most of which are only relevant pre or post game.
At the end of the day, there's people that don't want physical copies, be it for preference, space, or due to the book being outdated too quickly. It doesn't really matter.
So, for those, the fact that they come with a partial digital set of rules is inconsequential. A digital copy of the book is a service that GW offered before and has decided to stop offering.
Telling people to "just buy the physical book, and use it when the digital rules are lacking" is missing heavily the point.
Go tell music lovers that to be able to download some (no, not all, for those they'll need to play the physical thing) of the songs on a new album they need to buy a vinyl/casette/CD, and see how they react.
AduroT wrote: GW forced me to pirate their books if I wanted to keep playing when they stopped selling digital versions and I had to find others supplying those.
Do you not get a code for digital codex with a physical purchase now?
You know the app doesn’t have all the rules in the Codexes, right? It also is missing some books entirely.
It was a genuine question. It's been a long while since I bought any codex.
Seems odd to offer a digital version and then miss out rules
Albertorius wrote: At the end of the day, there's people that don't want physical copies, be it for preference, space, or due to the book being outdated too quickly. It doesn't really matter.
So, for those, the fact that they come with a partial digital set of rules is inconsequential. A digital copy of the book is a service that GW offered before and has decided to stop offering.
Telling people to "just buy the physical book, and use it when the digital rules are lacking" is missing heavily the point.
Go tell music lovers that to be able to download some (no, not all, for those they'll need to play the physical thing) of the songs on a new album they need to buy a vinyl/casette/CD, and see how they react.
I totally agree, but it’s a case of want not need. I also want to be able to buy digital codices, but I’m not going to start claiming that I’m “forced” to pirate.
Spectral Ceramite wrote: A lot of us do look at other games etc, you have to look at the viability of the game. Like I love the models but if it is going to go out of business soon what is the point in buying??? Like I want to buy Arena Rex, but will give them a few more years and if still around and will buy it.
Ironically, this is why they won't be around in a few years
Albertorius wrote: At the end of the day, there's people that don't want physical copies, be it for preference, space, or due to the book being outdated too quickly. It doesn't really matter.
So, for those, the fact that they come with a partial digital set of rules is inconsequential. A digital copy of the book is a service that GW offered before and has decided to stop offering.
Telling people to "just buy the physical book, and use it when the digital rules are lacking" is missing heavily the point.
Go tell music lovers that to be able to download some (no, not all, for those they'll need to play the physical thing) of the songs on a new album they need to buy a vinyl/casette/CD, and see how they react.
I totally agree, but it’s a case of want not need. I also want to be able to buy digital codices, but I’m not going to start claiming that I’m “forced” to pirate.
Are you actually able to buy a digital codex? Not the rules in the app. A pdf/ebook/whatever format.
If not, you are forced to pirate it to get it. There's literally no way to give them money for that.
You are forced because that was an option that they have decided to take away. So now, if you want the rules, you have to buy a physical book. And if you want just the rules in the app (even if not all the rules)... well, you also have to buy a physical book.
And if you want a digital book, well, you can go feth yourself.
Albertorius wrote: At the end of the day, there's people that don't want physical copies, be it for preference, space, or due to the book being outdated too quickly. It doesn't really matter.
So, for those, the fact that they come with a partial digital set of rules is inconsequential. A digital copy of the book is a service that GW offered before and has decided to stop offering.
Telling people to "just buy the physical book, and use it when the digital rules are lacking" is missing heavily the point.
Go tell music lovers that to be able to download some (no, not all, for those they'll need to play the physical thing) of the songs on a new album they need to buy a vinyl/casette/CD, and see how they react.
I totally agree, but it’s a case of want not need. I also want to be able to buy digital codices, but I’m not going to start claiming that I’m “forced” to pirate.
Are you actually able to buy a digital codex? Not the rules in the app. A pdf/ebook/whatever format.
If not, you are forced to pirate it to get it. There's literally no way to give them money for that.
You are forced because that was an option that they have decided to take away. So now, if you want the rules, you have to buy a physical book. And if you want just the rules in the app (even if not all the rules)... well, you also have to buy a physical book.
And if you want a digital book, well, you can go feth yourself.
Or, buy the physical book and take photos/scans for personal use as is your right.
Digital versions of the product are just one way or method of distribution, your options currently are: engage in illegal activity, buy a book to physically use/copy for personal use or not play with the latest rules.
Albertorius wrote: At the end of the day, there's people that don't want physical copies, be it for preference, space, or due to the book being outdated too quickly. It doesn't really matter.
So, for those, the fact that they come with a partial digital set of rules is inconsequential. A digital copy of the book is a service that GW offered before and has decided to stop offering.
Telling people to "just buy the physical book, and use it when the digital rules are lacking" is missing heavily the point.
Go tell music lovers that to be able to download some (no, not all, for those they'll need to play the physical thing) of the songs on a new album they need to buy a vinyl/casette/CD, and see how they react.
I totally agree, but it’s a case of want not need. I also want to be able to buy digital codices, but I’m not going to start claiming that I’m “forced” to pirate.
Are you actually able to buy a digital codex? Not the rules in the app. A pdf/ebook/whatever format.
If not, you are forced to pirate it to get it. There's literally no way to give them money for that.
You are forced because that was an option that they have decided to take away. So now, if you want the rules, you have to buy a physical book. And if you want just the rules in the app (even if not all the rules)... well, you also have to buy a physical book.
And if you want a digital book, well, you can go feth yourself.
Or, buy the physical book and take photos/scans for personal use as is your right.
Digital versions of the product are just one way or method of distribution, your options currently are: engage in illegal activity, buy a book to physically use/copy for personal use or not play with the latest rules.
Illegal does not mean immoral, and piracy only became illegal because of big companies.
Still on the fence with the box set, it pretty much comes down to the codex. The models get a deeper discount in the Combat Patrol box and I doubt it will be long before the EC is released separately. So I can either shell out now for the limited cover (I did enjoy my sisters one, even though the book itself was outdated far too soon) or just hold out to buy separately.
Cronch wrote: I think the box underscores just how high GW prices are at this time. 125 gbp for 13 models, 1 of them a dread is not a very attractive deal imo.
Especially when you realize what was in the Indomitus box
Cronch wrote: I think the box underscores just how high GW prices are at this time. 125 gbp for 13 models, 1 of them a dread is not a very attractive deal imo.
I do agree, but I also think it’s a poor choice of models too.
Cronch wrote: I think the box underscores just how high GW prices are at this time. 125 gbp for 13 models, 1 of them a dread is not a very attractive deal imo.
Especially when you realize what was in the Indomitus box
Indomitus pricing is all over the place. The box itself is great value, but you also have the bikes at $60 alone, SM sprue with the bladeguard, chappy, and other elites at $140, the royal court sprue at something like $110, not sure on that one. And Necron warriors where for $5 more you can get the recruit starter and get 5 assault marines and 2 characters.
This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
Sure, and the optic is still (to me!) underscoring how expensive the kits are. 13 models for over 100 pounds is not cheap or reasonable, even if you assume it's not meant to be discount set at all.
But it's not 13 models. Its 13 models plus Codex Supplement and Data Cards.
So realistically it's a CP box (£85), plus Supplement (£17.50), plus Cards (£10) for a total of £112.50. Smack on some Ltd Ed shenanigans for the remaining £'s.
Its hardly brilliant but let's not pretend it's just models here.
zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
Sure, and the optic is still (to me!) underscoring how expensive the kits are. 13 models for over 100 pounds is not cheap or reasonable, even if you assume it's not meant to be discount set at all.
/shrug
Seems in line with industry standards. Infinity packs like Operation Kaldstorm come with 14 minis for 110 GBP before discounts. Less options, much smaller and no hardback book.
It's not cheap, but not unusual (unfortunately?) in this hobby.
And issue was born before. Issue isn't this box is so expensive. Issue is gw models became so expensive. For those this is cheaper.
You don't save money by not buying this. You save by not buying gw models. If you buy gw models might just as well buy this to save cash if you are starting bt army.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Fascinating how the Redemptor can be considered an "older kit" by Marine players, and simultenously be much newer than most Xenos ranges
What I said is as simple and literal as can be. The Redemptor came out before, therefore it’s older.
If you redirected half the time and effort you spend bitching on DakkaDakka into buying and building Xenos kits you might actually get them to make new ones. But until then, they’re going to pander to whatever faction makes them the most money.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Fascinating how the Redemptor can be considered an "older kit" by Marine players, and simultenously be much newer than most Xenos ranges
Yeah, its not like they bundled this with a falcon or vyper. In all reality, marines don't really have old plastic kits that aren't updated so tough to handicap it to an older kit
zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
Sure, and the optic is still (to me!) underscoring how expensive the kits are. 13 models for over 100 pounds is not cheap or reasonable, even if you assume it's not meant to be discount set at all.
/shrug
Seems in line with industry standards. Infinity packs like Operation Kaldstorm come with 14 minis for 110 GBP before discounts. Less options, much smaller and no hardback book.
It's not cheap, but not unusual (unfortunately?) in this hobby.
Kaldstrom also comes with heavy-duty cardstock terrain, basically like Mordheim but even thicker (i'm ignoring guff like dice and rules booklets). Better comparison would be to action packs, which contain 13-15 models for 77 pounds before discounts. None of them is as big as a dread, but it's significantly cheaper proposition.
zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
Sure, and the optic is still (to me!) underscoring how expensive the kits are. 13 models for over 100 pounds is not cheap or reasonable, even if you assume it's not meant to be discount set at all.
/shrug
Seems in line with industry standards. Infinity packs like Operation Kaldstorm come with 14 minis for 110 GBP before discounts. Less options, much smaller and no hardback book.
It's not cheap, but not unusual (unfortunately?) in this hobby.
Sure it is... it only depends on how much you cherry pick. OTOH, if you go compare with other things like Stargrave boxes, well, the deal seems significantly different.
For example, I paid less than half the cost of that box for the three Stargrave boxes plus the Nickstarted freebies.
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zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Fascinating how the Redemptor can be considered an "older kit" by Marine players, and simultenously be much newer than most Xenos ranges
If you redirected half the time and effort you spend bitching on DakkaDakka into buying and building Xenos kits you might actually get them to make new ones. But until then, they’re going to pander to whatever faction makes them the most money.
Sure it is... it only depends on how much you cherry pick. OTOH, if you go compare with other things like Stargrave boxes, well, the deal seems significantly different.
For example, I paid less than half the cost of that box for the three Stargrave boxes plus the Nickstarted freebies.
And the Startgrave stuff is a pretty bad deal compared to Reaper Bones pledges. Even most Zombicide deals. Etc..
Sure it is... it only depends on how much you cherry pick. OTOH, if you go compare with other things like Stargrave boxes, well, the deal seems significantly different.
For example, I paid less than half the cost of that box for the three Stargrave boxes plus the Nickstarted freebies.
And the Startgrave stuff is a pretty bad deal compared to Reaper Bones pledges. Even most Zombicide deals. Etc..
Sure.
So, it's not really "industry standard" is what you're saying?
Even comparing with the Infinity stuff (which is all metal, mind), we're comparing 119 euros (Infinity) against 155 (GW) for a comparable amount of minis. The Infinity sets have scenery, dice, rules, and everything else needed to play, the BT box has the codex and cards.
zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
Sure, and the optic is still (to me!) underscoring how expensive the kits are. 13 models for over 100 pounds is not cheap or reasonable, even if you assume it's not meant to be discount set at all.
/shrug
Seems in line with industry standards. Infinity packs like Operation Kaldstorm come with 14 minis for 110 GBP before discounts. Less options, much smaller and no hardback book.
It's not cheap, but not unusual (unfortunately?) in this hobby.
Sure it is... it only depends on how much you cherry pick. OTOH, if you go compare with other things like Stargrave boxes, well, the deal seems significantly different.
For example, I paid less than half the cost of that box for the three Stargrave boxes plus the Nickstarted freebies.
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zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
A bad deal?
Are they advertising it as some kind of deal? Or are you meaning “I do not think Games workshop models are worth their MSRP” when you say deal?
This box isn’t intended as some kind of deal. It’s a bundle of new products sold at MSRP, with a special cover for the book and a Dreadnought added to entice you to buy into the FOMO.
If it said Battleforce on it, I’d say it’s a bad deal too. Unless those 13 models were Knights for only $200.
zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
Sure, and the optic is still (to me!) underscoring how expensive the kits are. 13 models for over 100 pounds is not cheap or reasonable, even if you assume it's not meant to be discount set at all.
/shrug
Seems in line with industry standards. Infinity packs like Operation Kaldstorm come with 14 minis for 110 GBP before discounts. Less options, much smaller and no hardback book.
It's not cheap, but not unusual (unfortunately?) in this hobby.
Sure it is... it only depends on how much you cherry pick. OTOH, if you go compare with other things like Stargrave boxes, well, the deal seems significantly different.
For example, I paid less than half the cost of that box for the three Stargrave boxes plus the Nickstarted freebies.
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zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
A bad deal?
This box isn’t intended as some kind of deal. It’s a bundle of new products sold at MSRP, with a special cover for the book and a Dreadnought added to entice you to buy into the FOMO.
If anything, that Dreadnought is doing the opposite of enticing people, since it's not a new model, it's avalible separately, has shown up in bundles quite a few times, and it's biggest contribution to the box is jacking up the price. If that Dread were the Sword Brethren i imagine it would make the box more interesting to quite a few people.
zend wrote: Are they advertising it as some kind of deal? Or are you meaning “I do not think Games workshop models are worth their MSRP” when you say deal?
This box isn’t intended as some kind of deal. It’s a bundle of new products sold at MSRP, with a special cover for the book and a Dreadnought added to entice you to buy into the FOMO.
If it said Battleforce on it, I’d say it’s a bad deal too. Unless those 13 models were Knights for only $200.
That is precisely what I mean, only not a generic "games workshop models". I mean that I don't think what you get in that box is worth what they're asking for, irrespective of the MSRP.
zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
Sure, and the optic is still (to me!) underscoring how expensive the kits are. 13 models for over 100 pounds is not cheap or reasonable, even if you assume it's not meant to be discount set at all.
/shrug
Seems in line with industry standards. Infinity packs like Operation Kaldstorm come with 14 minis for 110 GBP before discounts. Less options, much smaller and no hardback book.
It's not cheap, but not unusual (unfortunately?) in this hobby.
Sure it is... it only depends on how much you cherry pick. OTOH, if you go compare with other things like Stargrave boxes, well, the deal seems significantly different.
For example, I paid less than half the cost of that box for the three Stargrave boxes plus the Nickstarted freebies.
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zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
A bad deal?
This box isn’t intended as some kind of deal. It’s a bundle of new products sold at MSRP, with a special cover for the book and a Dreadnought added to entice you to buy into the FOMO.
If anything, that Dreadnought is doing the opposite of enticing people, since it's not a new model, it's avalible separately, has shown up in bundles quite a few times, and it's biggest contribution to the box is jacking up the price. If that Dread were the Sword Brethren i imagine it would make the box more interesting to quite a few people.
Then they wouldn’t have discounted the bundle at all and you’d be crying even harder .
Do I need to link the thread for those new Vanguard/Necron army bundles? I don’t think I do, but I will if you ask.
zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
Sure, and the optic is still (to me!) underscoring how expensive the kits are. 13 models for over 100 pounds is not cheap or reasonable, even if you assume it's not meant to be discount set at all.
/shrug
Seems in line with industry standards. Infinity packs like Operation Kaldstorm come with 14 minis for 110 GBP before discounts. Less options, much smaller and no hardback book.
It's not cheap, but not unusual (unfortunately?) in this hobby.
Sure it is... it only depends on how much you cherry pick. OTOH, if you go compare with other things like Stargrave boxes, well, the deal seems significantly different.
For example, I paid less than half the cost of that box for the three Stargrave boxes plus the Nickstarted freebies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zend wrote: This isn’t a seasonal Battleforce or starter box, it’s three brand new kits bundled with a slightly discounted older kit and a new codex/Warscroll deck. They’re not intending this to be anything other than what they’re selling it as.
A bad deal?
This box isn’t intended as some kind of deal. It’s a bundle of new products sold at MSRP, with a special cover for the book and a Dreadnought added to entice you to buy into the FOMO.
If anything, that Dreadnought is doing the opposite of enticing people, since it's not a new model, it's avalible separately, has shown up in bundles quite a few times, and it's biggest contribution to the box is jacking up the price. If that Dread were the Sword Brethren i imagine it would make the box more interesting to quite a few people.
Then they wouldn’t have discounted the bundle at all and you’d be crying even harder .
Do I need to link the thread for those new Vanguard/Necron army bundles? I don’t think I do, but I will if you ask.
I dunno, it's the same price as the Sisters of Battle and Beast Snagga boxes, and those were both entirely new models, and discounted.
Because that's what this army box is equivalent to, not the recent bundles.
But it won't be worse than my purchase of the sister of battle limited box when I could have bought for 30€ cheaper the Combat Patrol plus a rhino minus a codex I didn't even took out the wrapping plastic before using it.
And they will be in Imperium again for cheaper. Nah man, GW printed products have 0 value outside 100% fluff stuff.
I dunno, it's the same price as the Sisters of Battle and Beast Snagga boxes, and those were both entirely new models, and discounted.
Because that's what this army box is equivalent to, not the recent bundles.
You absolutely would complain that there’s no point to the bundle if they didn’t discount anything. You’re actually hurting your own case, because if you want to go by those standard it’s only slightly “worse” than the Snagga box, and it’s actually better than the Sister’s box in monetary terms.
Snagga: $200 worth of models, codex, cards
Sisters: Maybe $180 worth of models, tops? If they were the full kits of the units it would be $223 worth but they’re shared sprue ETB models with no options whatsoever, $8 worth of dice, codex, cards
Templars: $195 worth of models, codex, cards
Woweee it’s $5 under the value of the models in the Ork box….. so terrible. Funnily enough, it would actually lose a further $5 in value if they swapped the Redemptor for the Sword Brethren.
Love the new Templars, and would love to have scooped them up, but the price is just batdung crazy. I mean, an easy pass when you consider what you’re getting in return for what you’re spending. I sense this will be more and more the case for me going forward.
I dunno, it's the same price as the Sisters of Battle and Beast Snagga boxes, and those were both entirely new models, and discounted.
Because that's what this army box is equivalent to, not the recent bundles.
You absolutely would complain that there’s no point to the bundle if they didn’t discount anything. You’re actually hurting your own case, because if you want to go by those standard it’s only slightly “worse” than the Snagga box, and it’s actually better than the Sister’s box in monetary terms.
Snagga: $200 worth of models, codex, cards
Sisters: Maybe $180 worth of models, tops? If they were the full kits of the units it would be $223 worth but they’re shared sprue ETB models with no options whatsoever, $8 worth of dice, codex, cards
Templars: $195 worth of models, codex, cards
Woweee it’s $5 under the value of the models in the Ork box….. so terrible. Funnily enough, it would actually lose a further $5 in value if they swapped the Redemptor for the Sword Brethren.
My point is literally that 1/3rd of the Black Templars box isn't even Black Templar models, and the entire Ork Box was, y'know, brand new Ork models?
And let's be honest, the Sword Brethren are gonna be 65$ at least. Bladeguard vets are already 50$, and there's just 3 of them.
I've been [playing BT's since 2nd ed., and this set SHOULD be an auto-buy for me, as I'd really like that cover on my codex supplement, but as I really don't need another redemptor I'll give it a miss.
So buy those instead of this Black Templars box. Problem solved.
Not buying any of those. Just saying the Templar's box is not outside of the norm of other company's products in the same market.
And while I'm not specifically buying the Black Templar's box, doesn't mean I am always racing to the bottom price for whatever garbage there is. I am often fine paying more for a prime Steak then Taco Bell sludge, even if it's less value on a pure quantity-divided-by-price-basis.
So buy those instead of this Black Templars box. Problem solved.
Not buying any of those. Just saying the Templar's box is not outside of the norm of other company's products in the same market.
And while I'm not specifically buying the Black Templar's box, doesn't mean I am always racing to the bottom price for whatever garbage there is. I am often fine paying more for a prime Steak then Taco Bell sludge, even if it's less value on a pure quantity-divided-by-price-basis.
And other times, you do that and still get served gak, while the ma and pa restaurant gives you the actual quality for a fraction of the price.
Price =/= quality, so there's no need to "race to the bottom price for whatever garbage there is".
I know he has some of the features of them, but is that Castellan definitely a Firstborn Marine? Have there even been any other Firstborn Marine miniatures released since the Primaris release? I can't remember anything that wasn't Primaris (other than some terminators and characters in board games) over the past few years
Mentlegen324 wrote: I know he has some of the features of them, but is that Castellan definitely a Firstborn Marine? Have there even been any other Firstborn Marine miniatures released since the Primaris release? I can't remember anything that wasn't Primaris (other than some terminators and characters in board games) over the past few years
Castellan Crowe was explictly non-Primaris. Besides, there have been quite a few limited edition Firstborn Characters, like the two Terminators and the Librarian, and it is theorized that the Firstborn Castellan was originally supposed to be a limited edition mini, due to just how much he doesn't fit with the rest.
Castellan Crowe may be first born, but I am curious how he appears in size compared to primaris and other first born marines. Calling him a primaris would have had major implications for the range that GW is probably not ready to admit (less it dampen sales of existing GK).
I’m surprised the Black Templar box is still available. Perhaps it’s the preorder promise preventing scalper purchasing, or perhaps it’s the cost of the box itself (which I admit has kept me from purchasing it).
It could also be that while Templars are popular, they are a subfaction army, while sisters and elves were full armies, and even beastsnaggas are universal orks.
I'm single.
No kids.
No serious medical issues.
I have an amazing job.
200$ for the models I need to start my force.
In addition to the models in the box, and the models I will buy to fill in the rest of the collection, I also tend to factor in enjoyment, modeling, and games played as a part of the cost.
For me, 200$ is fine. For those who it isn't, they won't buy it. Seems like capitalism working as intended to me. What's the big deal?
Were a lot of the folks in this thread that are upset about the cost really going to buy this army in the first place?
I swear nerds just want an excuse to rage about something. They rage at the world , they rage at their families, but mostly, they just rage.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I know he has some of the features of them, but is that Castellan definitely a Firstborn Marine?
It's not. Or at least not exclusively. They specifically gave a primaris lieutenant an option to take the gear that model has. Though non-primaris lieutenants and captains could already take those weapons, so you could use the model to represent them too. Basically it is just a model based on the artwork, and you can use it for whatever you want.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I know he has some of the features of them, but is that Castellan definitely a Firstborn Marine?
It's not. Or at least not exclusively. They specifically gave a primaris lieutenant an option to take the gear that model has. Though non-primaris lieutenants and captains could already take those weapons, so you could use the model to represent them too. Basically it is just a model based on the artwork, and you can use it for whatever you want.
I have to wonder if that still holds up when the model is out and people can compare the anatomy to upscaled Marines and Primaris. It can hardly fit both.
I'm single.
No kids.
No serious medical issues.
I have an amazing job.
200$ for the models I need to start my force.
In addition to the models in the box, and the models I will buy to fill in the rest of the collection, I also tend to factor in enjoyment, modeling, and games played as a part of the cost.
For me, 200$ is fine. For those who it isn't, they won't buy it. Seems like capitalism working as intended to me. What's the big deal?
Were a lot of the folks in this thread that are upset about the cost really going to buy this army in the first place?
I swear nerds just want an excuse to rage about something. They rage at the world , they rage at their families, but mostly, they just rage.
Most people who enjoy the product doesn't even care to post here. There is very few "rage" in reality, it's just that we tend to mostly share what annoys us.
Even I, as a third ed. Black Templar player nostalgic, I can understand concerns about that box that isn't very generous regarding its price and previouses boxes. But one year ago, I was dreaming about a BT army box, with a nice Codex with some John Blanche vibes and some non-generics primaris with tabars and chains and stuff. I was afraid GW would release only a small upgrade sprue (as they did with other chapters), but instead they delivered exactly what I was waiting for. New miniatures are awesome, the book is perfect, and the sprues are decent regarding gear options.
So even if it's not as great value as it could have been, I'm totally buying it. It's not a ripoff as long as you enjoy it, and enjoyment cannot be summarized only by counting minis or calculating discount on separated kits that are always too expensive anyways.
I'm pretty sure every BT player is happy right now, whether they bought the army box or not.
Edit : The Castellan is amazing, I swear I was looking at the famous artwork a few month ago and thinking "why GW doesn't make miniatures that looks like this"... The possibility to play it as a firstborn or primaris is cherry on top.
To add some positivity to try and make Togusa feel a little better, while I didn't have a problem with the new Neophytes per se I wanted to wait for the 360s in the online store before I make up my mind. And I'm happy with how they turned out. I think GW did the bodybuilder physique of Marines justice with them.
I'm single.
No kids.
No serious medical issues.
I have an amazing job.
200$ for the models I need to start my force.
In addition to the models in the box, and the models I will buy to fill in the rest of the collection, I also tend to factor in enjoyment, modeling, and games played as a part of the cost.
For me, 200$ is fine. For those who it isn't, they won't buy it. Seems like capitalism working as intended to me. What's the big deal?
Were a lot of the folks in this thread that are upset about the cost really going to buy this army in the first place?
I swear nerds just want an excuse to rage about something. They rage at the world , they rage at their families, but mostly, they just rage.
Most people who enjoy the product doesn't even care to post here. There is very few "rage" in reality, it's just that we tend to mostly share what annoys us.
Even I, as a third ed. Black Templar player nostalgic, I can understand concerns about that box that isn't very generous regarding its price and previouses boxes. But one year ago, I was dreaming about a BT army box, with a nice Codex with some John Blanche vibes and some non-generics primaris with tabars and chains and stuff. I was afraid GW would release only a small upgrade sprue (as they did with other chapters), but instead they delivered exactly what I was waiting for. New miniatures are awesome, the book is perfect, and the sprues are decent regarding gear options.
So even if it's not as great value as it could have been, I'm totally buying it. It's not a ripoff as long as you enjoy it, and enjoyment cannot be summarized only by counting minis or calculating discount on separated kits that are always too expensive anyways.
I'm pretty sure every BT player is happy right now, whether they bought the army box or not.
Edit : The Castellan is amazing, I swear I was looking at the famous artwork a few month ago and thinking "why GW doesn't make miniatures that looks like this"... The possibility to play it as a firstborn or primaris is cherry on top.
Just to be clear, I understand why people are mad about the price. Just, it's a price I can pay and don't really have a problem doing.
I agree, I started the hobby with Salamanders in 7th and I really, really would like to do them as a primaris force again. But for now, everything is just too generic. I later read Helsreach and completely fell in love with both the Fists and The Templars. So seeing this release made me super excited because I see what I'd like to see with other primaris units. And what I hope to one day see with my Salamanders. Heck, I hope they bring Dorn and Vulkan themselves to the table!
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Geifer wrote: To add some positivity to try and make Togusa feel a little better, while I didn't have a problem with the new Neophytes per se I wanted to wait for the 360s in the online store before I make up my mind. And I'm happy with how they turned out. I think GW did the bodybuilder physique of Marines justice with them.
I see we're at the point in the discussion where certain people try to brag about their income as if it somehow wins arguments? I'm sure there's a bit of "It's a luxury hobby" gatekeeping in there somewhere I missed - there always is.
The whole "it's a lot of money, but I can buy it without caring about value, so it's fine" is pretty indicative of why GW sells through pretty much everything - there's no lack of whales who're more than happy to open wide for whatever GW decide to conjure up; I know it, they seem to know it, GW knows it. I can't really begrudge GW as a business for doing that, more so that a lot of people in this don't seem to really comprehend ascribing value to something.
It's new, it's from GW, it's Space Marine models, therefore nothing else even factors into the brain - point, click, buy. It's just such a weird thought process (or lack of it). Take the Catachan Colonel for instance. I've collected Guard for around 20 years, I loved the model, could I have afforded loads of raffle tickets or bought a £150 markup one off Ebay and not have to worry about it hurting my finances? Yeah sure, but I know that's an utterly ludicrous price and so I won't. On the other hand there'll have been people who won't have blinked twice at it - and even more people if it had been a Marine.
Arbitrator wrote: I see we're at the point in the discussion where certain people try to brag about their income as if it somehow wins arguments? I'm sure there's a bit of "It's a luxury hobby" gatekeeping in there somewhere I missed - there always is.
The whole "it's a lot of money, but I can buy it without caring about value, so it's fine" is pretty indicative of why GW sells through pretty much everything - there's no lack of whales who're more than happy to open wide for whatever GW decide to conjure up; I know it, they seem to know it, GW knows it. I can't really begrudge GW as a business for doing that, more so that a lot of people in this don't seem to really comprehend ascribing value to something.
It's new, it's from GW, it's Space Marine models, therefore nothing else even factors into the brain - point, click, buy. It's just such a weird thought process (or lack of it). Take the Catachan Colonel for instance. I've collected Guard for around 20 years, I loved the model, could I have afforded loads of raffle tickets or bought a £150 markup one off Ebay and not have to worry about it hurting my finances? Yeah sure, but I know that's an utterly ludicrous price and so I won't. On the other hand there'll have been people who won't have blinked twice at it - and even more people if it had been a Marine.
It's just weird to me.
I paid 35.00 USD for my Catachan Colonel. Where are you getting 150$ from?
Arbitrator wrote: I see we're at the point in the discussion where certain people try to brag about their income as if it somehow wins arguments? I'm sure there's a bit of "It's a luxury hobby" gatekeeping in there somewhere I missed - there always is.
I don't know exactly who you are refering too but I don't see any gatekeeping here. Of course Warhammer is an expensive hobby, it has always been. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it for years even as I had no salary yet and very few pocket money. I spent more time being creative and enjoying the few models I had.
Now I'm older, I can afford a "luxury" box, it doesn't mean I don't want other people to enjoy it. If the box price is too high, everybody can still buy the models later separately over the month. They won't be more expensive than existing primaris models I guess.
Arbitrator wrote: The whole "it's a lot of money, but I can buy it without caring about value, so it's fine" is pretty indicative of why GW sells through pretty much everything - there's no lack of whales who're more than happy to open wide for whatever GW decide to conjure up; I know it, they seem to know it, GW knows it. I can't really begrudge GW as a business for doing that, more so that a lot of people in this don't seem to really comprehend ascribing value to something.
Buying something you want / enjoy doesn't mean you don't care about the value. Otherwise, we would all be only buying strict necessary stuff. These are plastic soldier, they litteraly have no value at all for somebody who isn't into the hobby. With such a mindset, even a box like Indomitus is a ripoff.
All GW business is based on hype/enthusiasm regarding their minis, as long as people enjoy it and buy it, they obviously won't stop making it expensive. Just buy what you like and don't buy what you don't. Don't blame people for buying things you don't like enough.
Hey I have a question about the Neophytes: if they're basically same as Scouts, i.e. they don't have their Black Carapace yet, how come they've got all the plugs and that for where they attach to power armour in their arms, head etc? Or have I missed something?
I paid 35.00 USD for my Catachan Colonel. Where are you getting 150$ from?
Because the vast majority were scalped due to the rarity.
I understand. My FLGS got three of them and sold them at 35$ a piece. I liked Catachans and Steel Legion so I bought one on the off chance they ever do a range refresh for Guard and Catachans get new kits.
Nazrak wrote: Hey I have a question about the Neophytes: if they're basically same as Scouts, i.e. they don't have their Black Carapace yet, how come they've got all the plugs and that for where they attach to power armour in their arms, head etc? Or have I missed something?
The cynic in me says this is new coke, where historical references to old coke don't matter (same as with Sisters Repentia having visible plugs despite not being gene seeded up in any way).
Being a bit more charitable, a Primaris Neophyte is probably an intermediary step between Astartes and Primaris Astartes so should already have the black carapace complete with plugs, with scout style carapace armour being handed out until full transition to Primaris and MkX armour compatibility.
Togusa wrote: I understand. My FLGS got three of them and sold them at 35$ a piece. I liked Catachans and Steel Legion so I bought one on the off chance they ever do a range refresh for Guard and Catachans get new kits.
Then you're lucky. Every store I had access to got between 0 and 3, and put them up as random prizes for making orders.
Nazrak wrote: Hey I have a question about the Neophytes: if they're basically same as Scouts, i.e. they don't have their Black Carapace yet, how come they've got all the plugs and that for where they attach to power armour in their arms, head etc? Or have I missed something?
The cynic in me says this is new coke, where historical references to old coke don't matter (same as with Sisters Repentia having visible plugs despite not being gene seeded up in any way).
Being a bit more charitable, a Primaris Neophyte is probably an intermediary step between Astartes and Primaris Astartes so should already have the black carapace complete with plugs, with scout style carapace armour being handed out until full transition to Primaris and MkX armour compatibility.
To give this a slightly less cynical spin: With Black Templars you are not a proper Space Marine until your Initiate says that you are, but you can get your Black Carapace, when the Apothecarius says he deems you ready.
Realistically speaking: Do not look for any form of consistency on the entire topic of Power Armor, Gene Seed and Space Marine reproduction. The publications contradict each other and any form of logic on about any level to a point that not even "it's the warp! 'shrugs' " can explain it anymore. To give some examples:
- Most helmets are smaller than the head that they contain, same goes for thigh armour
- Marines must have extendable shoulder sockets in order to be able to lower their arms
- Schrödingers Gene Seed: Whenever an Apothecary is around, there is someone to harvest their Glands. If he's not, every Marine had them removed after 10 years of service
- Most marines serve for hundreds of years, yet in almost every encounter more than 25% of them die, and more than 50% of scouts never make it to Space Marines
- The Black Carapace is both organic and technologic at the same time and you need plugs in your apendages in order to have faster access to the central nervous system, while you already have that through a direct access to it in your spine
- The Black Carapace is Space Marine only, while there are dozens of direct neurologic link systems already in place that other people can use for operating machinery, and they are simultaniously as efficient and less efficient than a Space Marine at it
- And the classic: Progenoid Glands only contain enough spores to create exactly one set of organs, meaning one Marine can only reproduce to two Marines (after 10 years) and yet (and dew to Schrödingers Gene Seed) every chapter is simultaniously running low on Gene Seed and still able to create new Scouts (of which most die) at the same time. This one has ben sort of retconned though, I think now it's sort of unspecific how many Marines can be created, it is however, whenever mentioned just enough or just not enough, depending on how dramatic the scenery needs to be
Togusa wrote: I swear nerds just want an excuse to rage about something. They rage at the world , they rage at their families, but mostly, they just rage.
Maybe you have been lucky enough that you've never seen actual rage, if this feels like raging to you.
This is a discussion forum, people come here to talk about stuff, not everyone toes the line you like. Maybe deal with it?
I paid 35.00 USD for my Catachan Colonel. Where are you getting 150$ from?
Because the vast majority were scalped due to the rarity.
I just checked ebay for you, there is one right now, available for £50, and others that are not far off that same price.
I don't mind a moan, but we should keep it real.
One out of it's box at £50, but a few months ago you would not have seen one for that price - it would've been snapped up instantly. Even now, the majority boxed are floating around the £80-£200 range.
Let's not pretend a model with a £20 RRP going for those prices is somehow any better because one is going for £50.
I paid 35.00 USD for my Catachan Colonel. Where are you getting 150$ from?
Because the vast majority were scalped due to the rarity.
I just checked ebay for you, there is one right now, available for £50, and others that are not far off that same price.
I don't mind a moan, but we should keep it real.
One out of it's box at £50, but a few months ago you would not have seen one for that price - it would've been snapped up instantly. Even now, the majority boxed are floating around the £80-£200 range.
Let's not pretend a model with a £20 RRP going for those prices is somehow any better because one is going for £50.
When I'm looking to buy an item I tend to buy it for the cheapest price that I can find, like most people.
I just don't pay much attention to the sellers who are trying for the highest price possible. Why would anybody buy those items when there are cheaper ones available?
It seems pointless to me to moan about items priced at the top end of the scale, when others are available that are priced reasonably.
Aeneades wrote: Out of the box Colonel is likely to be a recast so not worth the £50 as the recasters sell them for far less than that.
It was complete with original instructions, brand new on plastic sprue, with the original black plastic inner box packaging. There was no way it was a recast.
But don't take my word for it, it's right there if you check the completed listings (yes, it sold at some point after I mentioned it in this thread).
I ended up ordering a box off ebay. 15% off made the price more reasonable and I can can certainly use another redemptor.
This will be a purely narrative army for me, so I don't expect to flesh it out completely. I'm totally in it for the models, so nice.
Insularum wrote: The cynic in me says this is new coke, where historical references to old coke don't matter (same as with Sisters Repentia having visible plugs despite not being gene seeded up in any way).
So 3rd edition Witch Hunters codex clearly showing these plugs in art is New Coke then?
GiToRaZor wrote: - And the classic: Progenoid Glands only contain enough spores to create exactly one set of organs, meaning one Marine can only reproduce to two Marines (after 10 years) and yet (and dew to Schrödingers Gene Seed) every chapter is simultaniously running low on Gene Seed and still able to create new Scouts (of which most die) at the same time. This one has ben sort of retconned though, I think now it's sort of unspecific how many Marines can be created, it is however, whenever mentioned just enough or just not enough, depending on how dramatic the scenery needs to be
Wasn't there a bit of fluff about inserting the seed into chapter slaves, then harvesting two once it matures, killing them? It was cited as a 'proof' chapter can make even a single set of organs into a few hundred after 50 years and multiple harvests in several discussions here, though I don't remember how official the source was.
For me, 200$ is fine. For those who it isn't, they won't buy it. Seems like capitalism working as intended to me. What's the big deal?
Poor people shouldn't get to enjoy things is a bold take, but sadly not controversial.
We are talking about a hobby, not social healthcare. Wanna go crusading for me because I can't afford a yacht?
Short and non-nuanced answer is yes. The less inequality in the world the better. In this specific instance, as we are not talking about labor and material intensive objects like seafaring ships, I do believe that GW's current prices are basically state-approved scalping, aka capitalism. I'll leave it at this so the thread doesn't get locked for the Evil Politics of Not Wanting People To Die When They Can't Afford Food (because yes, capitalism works the same for all things, including things you need to live, not just toy soldiers).
For me, 200$ is fine. For those who it isn't, they won't buy it. Seems like capitalism working as intended to me. What's the big deal?
Poor people shouldn't get to enjoy things is a bold take, but sadly not controversial.
We are talking about a hobby, not social healthcare. Wanna go crusading for me because I can't afford a yacht?
Short and non-nuanced answer is yes. The less inequality in the world the better. In this specific instance, as we are not talking about labor and material intensive objects like seafaring ships, I do believe that GW's current prices are basically state-approved scalping, aka capitalism. I'll leave it at this so the thread doesn't get locked for the Evil Politics of Not Wanting People To Die When They Can't Afford Food (because yes, capitalism works the same for all things, including things you need to live, not just toy soldiers).
I like a good anti Capitalism rant as much as the next man, but that didn't make a jot of sense.
ok, let's try this: yanking prices for entertainment bad, accessible hobbies good. There is zero reason to make plastic toy soldiers as inaccessible to below middle-class as GW is making it. Pricing out those groups of people out of a hobby for no reason other than more profit also bad.
They go for a mint, and are one of the rarest GW releases in recent history.
I have no idea about AUD$.
I'm saying that if he wants one then he can purchase one right now for £50, rather than $150.
A local Gaming store that sells used models has one sealed in a box for sale for $138. /Anecdote
Yeah, I'm sure that anybody can find examples of crazy prices, but surely anybody who actually wanted to buy one (rather than just moan) would just do what I did: go to ebay and find the best price.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Yeah, I'm sure that anybody can find examples of crazy prices, but surely anybody who actually wanted to buy one (rather than just moan) would just do what I did: go to ebay and find the best price.
Or go to recasters I guess. It's not like any money will go to GW either way. Seeing as you can get it that way for 5 euros...
For me, 200$ is fine. For those who it isn't, they won't buy it. Seems like capitalism working as intended to me. What's the big deal?
Poor people shouldn't get to enjoy things is a bold take, but sadly not controversial.
We are talking about a hobby, not social healthcare. Wanna go crusading for me because I can't afford a yacht?
Short and non-nuanced answer is yes. The less inequality in the world the better. In this specific instance, as we are not talking about labor and material intensive objects like seafaring ships, I do believe that GW's current prices are basically state-approved scalping, aka capitalism. I'll leave it at this so the thread doesn't get locked for the Evil Politics of Not Wanting People To Die When They Can't Afford Food (because yes, capitalism works the same for all things, including things you need to live, not just toy soldiers).
It would be better if you explained how Socialism is better than Capitalism at preventing people from starving to death, but I know this is a big ask so probably just as well you wrap up this this witless screed w/o trying.
Cronch wrote: ok, let's try this: yanking prices for entertainment bad, accessible hobbies good. There is zero reason to make plastic toy soldiers as inaccessible to below middle-class as GW is making it. Pricing out those groups of people out of a hobby for no reason other than more profit also bad.
There is a wide range of very accessible, very cheap plastic soldiers suitable for wargaming out there. People who can't afford GW products are not priced out of the hobby, they're priced out a specific product line.
People aren't entitled to own games workshop products as a matter of course.
Vorian wrote: Price of a finite thing rising when demand exceeds supply is not late stage Capitalism.
Yeah, IDK, it's like not nice business practice and they're basically treating it like a monopoly, exploiting their visibility and using it to charge stupid prices, but it's not a monopoly, it's just the biggest game in town. They're not conspiring to price fix or anything else particularly shady, they're just kinda being jerks and throwing their weight around because they're capitalist (which, for the record, sucks, but is the current economic mode).
Take your business elsewhere and take a fraction of their effectiveness and power away? Work on getting more affordable games some momentum at your club or whatever? I enjoy 40k but have managed to buy nearly entirely used and for pretty cheap, and I play other games. Yeah, there are times when I go "ooh, shiny" at new GW stuff, but if I'm not happy with the price:value ratio (which is nearly all the time), I go elsewhere. You definitely don't need to participate in their pricing scheme nor in their particular dominance over the social participation it allows, and as much as it would be nice for everyone to be able to afford whatever pass time they want, that's not the case, there are other ways to enjoy miniature gaming as a hobby without giving GW a cent, and there are bigger injustices out there than capitalism pooping on this particular desire.
Vorian wrote: Price of a finite thing rising when demand exceeds supply is not late stage Capitalism.
Yeah, IDK, it's like not nice business practice and they're basically treating it like a monopoly, exploiting their visibility and using it to charge stupid prices, but it's not a monopoly, it's just the biggest game in town. They're not conspiring to price fix or anything else particularly shady, they're just kinda being jerks and throwing their weight around because they're capitalist (which, for the record, sucks, but is the current economic mode).
Take your business elsewhere and take a fraction of their effectiveness and power away? Work on getting more affordable games some momentum at your club or whatever? I enjoy 40k but have managed to buy nearly entirely used and for pretty cheap, and I play other games. Yeah, there are times when I go "ooh, shiny" at new GW stuff, but if I'm not happy with the price:value ratio (which is nearly all the time), I go elsewhere. You definitely don't need to participate in their pricing scheme nor in their particular dominance over the social participation it allows, and as much as it would be nice for everyone to be able to afford whatever pass time they want, that's not the case, there are other ways to enjoy miniature gaming as a hobby without giving GW a cent, and there are bigger injustices out there than capitalism pooping on this particular desire.
They are literally only charging what they consider a market rate for what they produce. As they are obliged to do.
If they go too high they won't sell everything they can produce... we are yet to see a that so they are on the right side of competent at the moment.
I uh was actually agreeing with you, I thought. With something like this "only charging what they consider a market rate" is absurdly subjective, and makes them sound like they're somehow scraping by, which is equally ridiculous. If you mean, they're taking as much as they can get away with and doing so because they're beholden to shareholders, yeah, they are, and I don't need to be happy with it or think it's the only way they could have operated.
And we definitely have seen them charge too much, the company floundered for any number of years, which partially contributed to their competition gaining traction.
I was particularly talking about "monopolistic practises", they are just doing what a normal company should be doing. There's nothing monopolistic about it.
Not sure they floundered particularly, when was the last time they were not in profit?
Vorian wrote: I was particularly talking about "monopolistic practises", they are just doing what a normal company should be doing. There's nothing monopolistic about it.
Also I think the world is flat.
Don't quote me on what I didn't write, it's dishonest. They have a corner they're squatting on and exploiting it to its fullest advantage. That efficacy isn't necessary to doing business, it's just one way of doing business that they've chosen and yeah by those standards it's what they should be doing, but that's a very big assumption. Slave labor is also an efficient way of generating capital, that doesn't mean it should be done. (No, this is not in any way suggesting GW practices amount to or are in any way analogous to slave labor. I'm arguing that a single metric of "should" is full of assumptions and reductive.)
Capitalism and Socialism? What the hell are you guys on about?
Can anyone explain to me why the Easy to build dread was discontinued? Cause it would help mitigate the stupid price tag of this box!
And please with no ism's XD
NAVARRO wrote: Capitalism and Socialism? What the hell are you guys on about?
Can anyone explain to me why the Easy to build dread was discontinued? Cause it would help mitigate the stupid price tag of this box!
And please with no ism's XD
Well cost is one thing. It also didn't have most of the weapon options.
The ETB kits also seem to have a more limited lifespan- GW intentionally drops them from the catalog.
NAVARRO wrote: Capitalism and Socialism? What the hell are you guys on about?
Can anyone explain to me why the Easy to build dread was discontinued? Cause it would help mitigate the stupid price tag of this box!
And please with no ism's XD
We're talking about exactly your question. GW can discontinue their discount kit and jack up their "stupid price tag." Some people think GW's obligated to because it makes them the most money and money is good especially when you're in the business of business; others think that kinda makes them dicks because them making more money directly affects consumers by making them pay more or pricing them out of some fun, when GW was already doing fine selling a cheaper version of the kit and making a healthy profit. There, no -ism's!
Have there been any rumors about how this splash release of BTs might portend further marine releases? E.g. It wouldn't be shocking to have a similar scale release for the Dark Angels, Blood Knights, and Space Wolves that would Primaris-ize some of their iconic units, bring a few heroes to scale, and lead to a new and improved upgrade kit.
Wishlisting, you could imagine other niche/legacy chapters like Carcharodons, or productized versions of some of the new native Primaris legions like The Sons of the Phoenix or The Spears of the emperor. Feels like we're getting to the point in the cycle where a new mid-cycle Space Marine release will be in the offing, so was wondering if anyone has heard scuttlebutt?
Vorian wrote: Is monopolistic practises different to them treating it like a monopoly? In any case, they do neither.
GW just charge what people will pay. There's nothing more to it.
Seriously? No.
They have a business to run, which includes things like insurance, a payroll, and shareholders. Then you have advertising, internet promotion and a website to pay for. In addition they have to pay taxes on property, purchase raw materials (some of which are in extreme demand and as such the price has risen dramatically at the moment) as well as pay for global shipping and other things that allow them to do business in other countries, as well as their own.
flaherty wrote: Have there been any rumors about how this splash release of BTs might portend further marine releases? E.g. It wouldn't be shocking to have a similar scale release for the Dark Angels, Blood Knights, and Space Wolves that would Primaris-ize some of their iconic units, bring a few heroes to scale, and lead to a new and improved upgrade kit.
Wishlisting, you could imagine other niche/legacy chapters like Carcharodons, or productized versions of some of the new native Primaris legions like The Sons of the Phoenix or The Spears of the emperor. Feels like we're getting to the point in the cycle where a new mid-cycle Space Marine release will be in the offing, so was wondering if anyone has heard scuttlebutt?
I think, if it happens, it won't be for the DA, BA, or SW--but would be them revamping the smaller supplement books.
flaherty wrote: Have there been any rumors about how this splash release of BTs might portend further marine releases? E.g. It wouldn't be shocking to have a similar scale release for the Dark Angels, Blood Knights, and Space Wolves that would Primaris-ize some of their iconic units, bring a few heroes to scale, and lead to a new and improved upgrade kit.
Wishlisting, you could imagine other niche/legacy chapters like Carcharodons, or productized versions of some of the new native Primaris legions like The Sons of the Phoenix or The Spears of the emperor. Feels like we're getting to the point in the cycle where a new mid-cycle Space Marine release will be in the offing, so was wondering if anyone has heard scuttlebutt?
I think, if it happens, it won't be for the DA, BA, or SW--but would be them revamping the smaller supplement books.
I wonder if some of the other primary chapters like Salamanders, White Scars or Iron Hands could get this kind of treatment? Maybe Deathwatch? Speaking of, I'm honestly surprised it has been so long since we've seen another primarch model.
Deathwatch doesn't need anything. They've gotten too much as is, IMO.
White Scars and Iron Hands already both have unique things outside of their named Primaris guy. WS get the Khan on Bike profile while Iron Hands can turn Dreadnoughts into characters.
Raven Guard, Salamanders, and arguably the Imperial+Crimson Fists could stand to get some kind of 'signature' unit.
Kanluwen wrote: Deathwatch doesn't need anything. They've gotten too much as is, IMO.
Four kits and an upgrade sprue is "too much"? Their Combat Patrol doesn't even have any Deathwatch models in it!!!
Kanluwen wrote: White Scars and Iron Hands already both have unique things outside of their named Primaris guy. WS get the Khan on Bike profile while Iron Hands can turn Dreadnoughts into characters.
The former being an ancient resin conversion to an even more ancient First Born plastic bike kit, and the latter not actually being a model.
Kanluwen wrote: Raven Guard, Salamanders, and arguably the Imperial+Crimson Fists could stand to get some kind of 'signature' unit.
I don't disagree, but I think GW would rather do a Primaris Renaissance with the big three Chapters (BA, DA, and SW) before they do one of the minor ones like, say, Raven Guard.
The upcoming Black Templar's release is the holy grail of WH40K updates. Every single Black Templars kit is being replaced with a new updated kit. The legacy units are staying around, but Plastic Primaris updates are being made for everything.
It would be nice to see this happen for future marine releases, but I'm not holding my breath.
You don't think they'd do a Primaris Sanguinary Guard? Primaris Ravenwing Outrider kit?
Maybe Primaris Ravenwing Outriders can just be an upgrade sprue, so we can get a proper universal Outrider kit that can be taken in unit more than 3 strong, and with actual options. Imagine that!!!
NAVARRO wrote: Can anyone explain to me why the Easy to build dread was discontinued? Cause it would help mitigate the stupid price tag of this box!
Note that the Templars box is the same price as the one for the Sisters, Snaggas and Lumineth starter box. The price for these has been set since their introduction two years ago and barring another price increase, the next time another one of these boxes comes around we'll have just as easy a time guessing a price as we did for the Templars box.
The variable part is what's inside the box. As such putting the ETB Dreadnought in, if it were still around, wouldn't actually decrease box price and we are better off with the full kit.
flaherty wrote: Have there been any rumors about how this splash release of BTs might portend further marine releases? E.g. It wouldn't be shocking to have a similar scale release for the Dark Angels, Blood Knights, and Space Wolves that would Primaris-ize some of their iconic units, bring a few heroes to scale, and lead to a new and improved upgrade kit.
Wishlisting, you could imagine other niche/legacy chapters like Carcharodons, or productized versions of some of the new native Primaris legions like The Sons of the Phoenix or The Spears of the emperor. Feels like we're getting to the point in the cycle where a new mid-cycle Space Marine release will be in the offing, so was wondering if anyone has heard scuttlebutt?
While everybody loves to think that Marines get nonstop new releases, and the second 8th ed codex and supplement bonanza certainly didn't hurt that impression, getting a second codex in the same edition is still a fairly rare thing. In my opinion Black Templars satisfy GW's requirement of a substantial release for a while, and considering all the 8th ed supplements are just as valid in 9th ed and came with a chapter specific miniature upon release, I wouldn't hold my breath for an update similar to Black Templars for the other chapters. They'll get those updates eventually, of course, but it won't be so soon that there'd be any rumors at this time.
Togusa wrote: Speaking of, I'm honestly surprised it has been so long since we've seen another primarch model.
This may be nothing but rumor, but I seem to remember talk a while back that the designers are in no rush to get out more Primarchs, especially on Imperial side where they are said to be happy with the narrative situation of having Girlyman in charge uncontested.
I expect that if and when World Eaters and Emperor's Children get a stand alone codex they'll be accompanied by their Daemon Primarch, but considering the (very deliberate) desolate state Chaos is in at the moment who knows how and when that happens.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Imagine wanting MORE Marine relases instead of literally anything else.
Well, I mean, the people who don't play any of those don't really have a reason to want them instead of more of what they use.
Kind of a logical sentiment, all told.
You don't always have to add "right after other armies in need of updated models are done" or something similar after every wishlist of yours, either. Saying that you want to see Primaris X doesn't mean it has to happen right now or at the cost of other armies.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: You'd think Marine players would be satisfied after a 100+ relases over the course of a few years.
You think the complainers would want to limit their number of complaints to below the number of marine releases. If you're sick of marines, imagine how seeing the same complaints even more than you see marines feels.
a_typical_hero wrote: I'm getting my box early later today. If you have any questions, feel free to write them here and I'll see if I can answer them.
Wow, really? Sweet! What do the other oaths do?
Any cool Strategems and Secondary objectives?
Interesting stories or fluff about Grimaldis and/or Helbrect’s decision to get the Primaris upgrade and/or telling the others to do the same? Any resistance?
Kanluwen wrote: Deathwatch doesn't need anything. They've gotten too much as is, IMO.
White Scars and Iron Hands already both have unique things outside of their named Primaris guy. WS get the Khan on Bike profile while Iron Hands can turn Dreadnoughts into characters.
Raven Guard, Salamanders, and arguably the Imperial+Crimson Fists could stand to get some kind of 'signature' unit.
Guessing that 10th edition will see the introduction of more jump pack Primaris units, Primaris flyers, etc. It's one of the last big gaps in the range and will be a great moment for Corvus' crew!
a_typical_hero wrote: I'm getting my box early later today. If you have any questions, feel free to write them here and I'll see if I can answer them.
Wow, really? Sweet! What do the other oaths do?
Any cool Strategems and Secondary objectives?
Interesting stories or fluff about Grimaldis and/or Helbrect’s decision to get the Primaris upgrade and/or telling the others to do the same? Any resistance?
Vows: Suffer Not the Unclean to Live
- Melee attacks against non-Vehicle units automatically wound on unmodified hit rolls of 6.
- If you charge, you have to charge the closest non-Aircraft unit within 12" that is not already engaged.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of cover.
Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch
- If the enemy got any Psyker, you get +3" of movement in your first turn.
- Re-roll 1s to wound against psykers in melee.
- You can't perform actions, if an enemy Psyker is within 18" of you.
Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds
- You always count as having the Assault doctrine active.
- Add 1 to your attacks characteristic, which is not cumulative with Shock Assault.
- You can't fall back.
Noteworthy Stratagems: For the Emperor's Honour!
- You select one of yours and an enemy Character in engagement range. The enemy can only target your character for that phase.
Bombastic Delivery
- One litany is automatically inspiring and you can recite one in addition (you have to roll for the second).
Note that RAW you can recite two per phase with this, even without taking a Master of Sanctity.
Champion of the Feast
- One Sergeant or Sword Brother gets +1A +1W and +1WS.
Strength of Conviction
- A unit gains Obsec for one round.
Shock and Awe
- Disembark from a Land Raider Crusader AFTER it moved. You can still charge.
Secondary Objectives: Bathe Your Blade In The Blood Of Your Foe
- Like the Blood Angel one where you get points for killing a Character in melee with your Character.
Allow Not The Worship Of Unclean Idols
- You get points for flipping objectives that were controlled by your enemy.
Carry Out Your Vows
- 1st part is killing more units in melee than you lose during one turn.
- 2nd part is dependent on the Vow you took. For example you have to have units above Half-strenght in your enemies deployment zone.
Regarding Helbrecht and Grimaldus SPOILER WARNING:
Spoiler:
- Torchbearer fleets from the Indomitus Crusade had problems finding the Templars, due to their scattered nature.
- It was expected BT would not like Primaris stuff because they are so unpredictable and temperamentally.
- Guilliman personally met Helbrecht on the Eternal Crusader.
- Helbrecht is an instant fan girl of Guilliman, as he is a living son of the God-Emperor.
- At the same time, Helbrecht thought Guilliman is coming to lecture them and bring more boring rules to abide to with him.
- Helbrecht is fully aware of how divergent the BT are and that Big G could easily scold them for many things.
- Helbrecht easily accepted Primaris tech and attributes a spark of divinity into it that G is uncomfortable with.
- G reminds H about his duty to the wider Imperium, instead of only chasing after Ghazkull, to which H promotes several Sword Brethren to Marshalls to create new crusades, which are bolstered by the Primaris reinforcements.
- A funny remark is that some Crusades are so far ahead of where they are supposed to be, because they are SO ZEALOUS, that they can't be reached by the Primaris reinforcements.
- Word on the street is that BT have an especially high success rate in crossing the Rubicon as a reward of their faith.
I only skimmed through it, but I couldn't find any story explaining how Helbrecht and Grimaldus became Primaris. I assume they just crossed the Rubicon.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.
Regarding Helbrecht and Grimaldus SPOILER WARNING:
Spoiler:
- Torchbearer fleets from the Indomitus Crusade had problems finding the Templars, due to their scattered nature.
- It was expected BT would not like Primaris stuff because they are so unpredictable and temperamentally.
- Guilliman personally met Helbrecht on the Eternal Crusader.
- Helbrecht is an instant fan girl of Guilliman, as he is a living son of the God-Emperor.
- At the same time, Helbrecht thought Guilliman is coming to lecture them and bring more boring rules to abide to with him.
- Helbrecht is fully aware of how divergent the BT are and that Big G could easily scold them for many things.
- Helbrecht easily accepted Primaris tech and attributes a spark of divinity into it that G is uncomfortable with.
- G reminds H about his duty to the wider Imperium, instead of only chasing after Ghazkull, to which H promotes several Sword Brethren to Marshalls to create new crusades, which are bolstered by the Primaris reinforcements.
- A funny remark is that some Crusades are so far ahead of where they are supposed to be, because they are SO ZEALOUS, that they can't be reached by the Primaris reinforcements.
- Word on the street is that BT have an especially high success rate in crossing the Rubicon as a reward of their faith.
I only skimmed through it, but I couldn't find any story explaining how Helbrecht and Grimaldus became Primaris. I assume they just crossed the Rubicon.
I love how both Helbrecht and Guilliman were surprised who the meeting went. I don't think Helbrecht is fanboying Guilliman. He may be a son of the Emperor, but the animosity between him and Dorn is mentioned rather clearly.
Anyway I explains quite nicely why the Templars accept the Primaris (Helbrecht sees it as a gift from the Emperor) and the bit of the high success rate of the Templars crossing the Rubicon is great (too stubborn to die - I'm sure Grimaldus is proud of his brethren).
Helbrecht promoting some of his swordbrethren to marshals is also great, as it is the perfect tie in for a your dudes Primaris army.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.
Huh.
That's... probably true. GW's rules writing drives me up the bend.
Got my box set today, I was a bit surprised to find that the sprues kinda filled up the space in the box - they definitely could have put more in there, but it wasn't as empty as I would have thought considering the low model count of the box.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.
That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:
If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.
Sigh. We need a 10th edition purely so that the people writing the AoS rules can write the rulebook. Why define the "benefits of cover" as something besides the most obvious meaning of the term if that definition is irrelevant to the majority of times you use the term "benefits of cover"?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Do you really want that rule that limits unit size in AoS ported over to 40k?
The game already has an MSU issue now that GW decided that a "horde" is anything with 6 or more models. That rule would worsen it.
That rule was desperately needed in AoS. Way too many armies were breaking the balance of the game by min/maxing unit sizes. It's not needed in 40K, so it's unlikely that they would bring it over.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Do you really want that rule that limits unit size in AoS ported over to 40k?
The game already has an MSU issue now that GW decided that a "horde" is anything with 6 or more models. That rule would worsen it.
I didn't say to change the rules. Just to write them in a way that makes sense - that you can follow. None of this "a unit is receiving the benefits of cover when they're within 3" of an obstacle or in area terrain. By the way we use this 2 times in heavy and light cover, every single other place you see anything about receiving the benefits of cover means something completely different. have fun!"
Also, I don't mind that rule in AoS. Oh no, I went from being able to take units of 40 zombies to units of 60 zombies, but only 2 of them. The horror! My Kharadron Overlords whomst never reinforce a unit!! no! My Gloomspite Gitz opponent still places 120 goblins + 40 squigs on the table, just in slightly different configurations than before.
Rihgu wrote: Also, I don't mind that rule in AoS. Oh no, I went from being able to take units of 40 zombies to units of 60 zombies, but only 2 of them. The horror! My Kharadron Overlords whomst never reinforce a unit!! no! My Gloomspite Gitz opponent still places 120 goblins + 40 squigs on the table, just in slightly different configurations than before.
It hasn't been a horrible rule, in any case.
In AoS, sure, but many units in 40k start at size 5 (some even lower). Porting this rule over to 40k as it exists now would mean that you'd be limited in how many full Marine squads one could take - one of the core building blocks on the game.
This is what I fear whenever I see someone say that they should bring the rules from one game across to another.
Rihgu wrote: Also, I don't mind that rule in AoS. Oh no, I went from being able to take units of 40 zombies to units of 60 zombies, but only 2 of them. The horror! My Kharadron Overlords whomst never reinforce a unit!! no! My Gloomspite Gitz opponent still places 120 goblins + 40 squigs on the table, just in slightly different configurations than before.
It hasn't been a horrible rule, in any case.
In AoS, sure, but many units in 40k start at size 5 (some even lower). Porting this rule over to 40k as it exists now would mean that you'd be limited in how many full Marine squads one could take - one of the core building blocks on the game.
This is what I fear whenever I see someone say that they should bring the rules from one game across to another.
I understand, but again. It was a needed rule in AoS. It isn't needed in 40K so I don't think they would bring it over.
alextroy wrote: If anything, 40K needs the opposite, a rule forcing you to take larger than minimum units.
Get rid of the 6 or more crap in 9th, and that might take care of itself (somewhat). No coherency nonsense with units 6-10 in size, no extra-horde mechanics. Don't punish people for taking standard sized squads, basically. Make it so the horde rules apply to actual hordes*.
And if compulsory Troops choices had to be max size, then that might help there as well. No more 3x3 Rippers and other nonsense (of course that would also be solved by making it so Rippers can't be compulsory choices, which in turn could be codified by making it so all Swarms can't be compulsory, which in turn is the reason why USRs are a good thing, and on and on we go down the rabbit hole... ).
*I am fully cognisant of the fact that any number chosen as the break point between "not a horde" and "horde" will always be arbitrary, be it 10+ or 12+ or 15+ or whatever. I just think that, perhaps, the standard size of squad for so many armies (10) should not be considered a horde (even a small one) and that 6-10 is FAR too low a threshold.
alextroy wrote: If anything, 40K needs the opposite, a rule forcing you to take larger than minimum units.
Get rid of the 6 or more crap in 9th, and that might take care of itself (somewhat). No coherency nonsense with units 6-10 in size, no extra-horde mechanics. Don't punish people for taking standard sized squads, basically. Make it so the horde rules apply to actual hordes*.
And if compulsory Troops choices had to be max size, then that might help there as well. No more 3x3 Rippers and other nonsense (of course that would also be solved by making it so Rippers can't be compulsory choices, which in turn could be codified by making it so all Swarms can't be compulsory, which in turn is the reason why USRs are a good thing, and on and on we go down the rabbit hole... ).
*I am fully cognisant of the fact that any number chosen as the break point between "not a horde" and "horde" will always be arbitrary, be it 10+ or 12+ or 15+ or whatever. I just think that, perhaps, the standard size of squad for so many armies (10) should not be considered a horde and that 6-10 is FAR too low a threshold.
True. Not having psychology rules that punish you more for having larger units would also help. (And also more elite multi-wound units lose more for each failure, as multiple wounds just vanish into the ether each time)
20 man crusader squads are hilarious from this perspective, though at least you can nominate the scouts to despawn.
That's a separate issue with the previous-described "lose more" system that GW calls "morale", a system that has nothing to do with actual morale (or suppression/pinning troops, as it should do) and more with giving players another avenue to cause even more damage to their opponent, but in a method that bypasses all the game's standard methods of causing damage (toughness, saving throws, wounds and damage).
Weirdly though, it's the 6-10 horde thing that I'd change first about 40k given the chance, not the bogus Morale rules.
Why did they keep the FB Crusader squad, but remove the FB Sword Brethren Squad? I spent a good 5 minutes trying to figure out why there were no plasma cannons on the crusader sprue only to realize their are two different profiles.
I really wish they would just squat the FB stuff and be done with it.
Togusa wrote: Why did they keep the FB Crusader squad, but remove the FB Sword Brethren Squad? I spent a good 5 minutes trying to figure out why there were no plasma cannons on the crusader sprue only to realize their are two different profiles.
I really wish they would just squat the FB stuff and be done with it.
Togusa wrote: Why did they keep the FB Crusader squad, but remove the FB Sword Brethren Squad? I spent a good 5 minutes trying to figure out why there were no plasma cannons on the crusader sprue only to realize their are two different profiles.
I really wish they would just squat the FB stuff and be done with it.
A. Slow FB squat
B. FBSB were Finecast and they are discontinuing that slowly as well
C. Forces old models off the current scene, thus forcing old players to buy their latest models instead of using old ones
D. Cuts out the 2nd hand market option for the unit, temporarily increasing their sales from meta chasers.
E. They no longer have to support the old unit with balanced rules and can move them to Legends for a slow death so they can claim the moral high ground of still technically supporting them for the current edition.
Togusa wrote: Why did they keep the FB Crusader squad, but remove the FB Sword Brethren Squad? I spent a good 5 minutes trying to figure out why there were no plasma cannons on the crusader sprue only to realize their are two different profiles.
I really wish they would just squat the FB stuff and be done with it.
Aren't FB sword brethren just Vanguard Veterans?
This. Firstborn Sword Brethren can easily be represented using the VV datasheet, while Firstborn Crusaders cannot. That's why.
Togusa wrote: Why did they keep the FB Crusader squad, but remove the FB Sword Brethren Squad? I spent a good 5 minutes trying to figure out why there were no plasma cannons on the crusader sprue only to realize their are two different profiles.
I really wish they would just squat the FB stuff and be done with it.
Aren't FB sword brethren just Vanguard Veterans?
This. Firstborn Sword Brethren can easily be represented using the VV datasheet, while Firstborn Crusaders cannot. That's why.
Well that at least makes a little sense. But man, this book is so light. They didn't even make data sheets for Castellans or Marshalls, instead they just added wargear to the "captain" and "Lieutenant" vanilla codex. There are literally 6 data sheets in this book. Three characters(Helbrecht, Grimm and the Champion), Crusaders (FB and Primaris) and Sword Brethren. I will say the editing was much better in this book than what was in my Salamanders Supplement.
The models are unbelievably gorgeous though. Overall I'm pretty happy with the box set. In talking with a friend, for any who have the book there is a picture on page 42 that is of what will be this factions Combat Patrol box. This is confirmed because the Ork and Sisters boxes matched the ones on the same combat patrol pages in their books. For those without the book, it's 5 Intercessors, a Marshall, 10 Crusaders and an impulsor. When paired with the starter set it should make for a pretty decent force for those who aren't in the competitive spirit. The rules in the book seem good, at first glance everything looks playable. I'm pretty impressed with that, usually I would expect there to be some broken AF stratagem or something like that.
Togusa wrote: Well that at least makes a little sense. But man, this book is so light. They didn't even make data sheets for Castellans or Marshalls, instead they just added wargear to the "captain" and "Lieutenant" vanilla codex. There are literally 6 data sheets in this book. Three characters(Helbrecht, Grimm and the Champion), Crusaders (FB and Primaris) and Sword Brethren. I will say the editing was much better in this book than what was in my Salamanders Supplement.
Honestly that makes sense, given how loaded the SM core book already is. It's not really like they need many more units.
Togusa wrote: Well that at least makes a little sense. But man, this book is so light. They didn't even make data sheets for Castellans or Marshalls, instead they just added wargear to the "captain" and "Lieutenant" vanilla codex. There are literally 6 data sheets in this book. Three characters(Helbrecht, Grimm and the Champion), Crusaders (FB and Primaris) and Sword Brethren. I will say the editing was much better in this book than what was in my Salamanders Supplement.
Honestly that makes sense, given how loaded the SM core book already is. It's not really like they need many more units.
Yeah, I was just expecting they'd have data sheets in this book. As it is, rules wise it could have (and should have) been a free PDF.
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.
That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:
If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.
edit: got page number wrong, corrected
Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover
Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.
You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.
That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:
If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.
edit: got page number wrong, corrected
Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:
Spoiler:
Question, what is written in the actual supplement does not specify light or dense cover. It only says "Each time an enemy model makes an attack against this unit, this unit does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack."
I think the core SM book precludes them from taking LIBRARIAN units, but that's about it. Given the two variants of Crusader Squads, I'm a little surprised they don't lose access to Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, Intercessors and Assault Intercessors.
Also, Togusa, you are familiar with what a Codex Supplement is, right?
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