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 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

1-the comparison to the BA and other first primaris wave is... shaky. IMHO it's pretty clear at that point they were most interested in rationalizing the SM line, players didn't react well with spending, and we've been seeing years of backpedaling, returning to stuff like crazy-ornate storm shields and other grimdark do-dads, and now full marine faction-themed kits, and marines have for ages had the disproportionate number of those: this isn't so much BA players were happy with it, as they weren't and it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

t.

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.
Having said that I'm not begrudging Templar fans this release- it looks great, I'm just shocked they ae complaining about it.

Curious to see what the other two vows will be.

My guess:
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
+ Get an invul save
- Can't benefit from light cover

Suffer Not the Unclean to Live
+1 to wound rolls in melee
- Always fight last

 silverstu wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

1-the comparison to the BA and other first primaris wave is... shaky. IMHO it's pretty clear at that point they were most interested in rationalizing the SM line, players didn't react well with spending, and we've been seeing years of backpedaling, returning to stuff like crazy-ornate storm shields and other grimdark do-dads, and now full marine faction-themed kits, and marines have for ages had the disproportionate number of those: this isn't so much BA players were happy with it, as they weren't and it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

t.

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.
Having said that I'm not begrudging Templar fans this release- it looks great, I'm just shocked they ae complaining about it.

Well, it depends on why, I think. Complaining at getting stuff, sure, thats odd.
Complaining that the sculpts aren't very good? Or the bits are stuffed with scout stuff that will raise the price significantly? That seems more understandable- much the same way people were underwhelmed by the plastic banshee sculpts despite how great it should have felt to get them in plastic after all these years.

Voss wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

1-the comparison to the BA and other first primaris wave is... shaky. IMHO it's pretty clear at that point they were most interested in rationalizing the SM line, players didn't react well with spending, and we've been seeing years of backpedaling, returning to stuff like crazy-ornate storm shields and other grimdark do-dads, and now full marine faction-themed kits, and marines have for ages had the disproportionate number of those: this isn't so much BA players were happy with it, as they weren't and it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

t.

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.
Having said that I'm not begrudging Templar fans this release- it looks great, I'm just shocked they ae complaining about it.

Well, it depends on why, I think. Complaining at getting stuff, sure, thats odd.
Complaining that the sculpts aren't very good? Or the bits are stuffed with scout stuff that will raise the price significantly? That seems more understandable- much the same way people were underwhelmed by the plastic banshee sculpts despite how great it should have felt to get them in plastic after all these years.

To be fair, the only reason the previous upgrade sprue had so much stuff in it, was because, well, Black Templars never had a plastic infantry kit, and now they have two. So, naturally, all the good bits from the old upgrade sprue migrated to the dedicated kits.

 silverstu wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.

Ya see- I explicitly acknowledged marine entitlement. But, as Voss pointed out, you've still got the right to not like how GW makes your space mans look. The complaint wasn't "not enough" the complaint was "not right." And if it was a generic marine unit (in the bloated core codex) it would still be a valid if shrug-worthy complaint, but a themed subfaction is much more specific both aesthetically and as a proportion of total volume (where they are pretty limited with specific options).

Voss wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
#1 issue for 40k atm is that you have too many sources of rules - I don't mean too many rulebooks (though thats a problem too), I just mean that you can generate modifiers, abilities, buffs, etc. from too many places, many of them unintuitive. The worst is things like Canticles and stuff in the Admech codex that change every goddamned round.

Also, Abhor the Witch just seems absolutely awful compared to Accept Any Challenge

Well i can see use for it in some matchups and as you know opponent when you decide it's easy enough to use it when it's worth it.

Question is, is it ever worth it? Is +3 move ONCE per game worth giving your opponent the ability to turn off all your actions just for units existing? That it works only in the first movement phase and not later when you can steal objectives or something makes it even worse.

Re-roll 1s to wound on psykers is trivial or redundant (to more universal abilities that marines can just get), so will almost never matter.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's a tradition for Abhor the Witch to suck. It wouldn't feel right if it suddenly was good.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Spoiler:

Voss wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Yes, because you ARE entitled! And in the way that only Marine players can be. Imagine getting more things for your sub-sub-faction than several actual factions, in addition to the hundreds of recent Marine relases, and all you do in response is whinge and complain.

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

1-the comparison to the BA and other first primaris wave is... shaky. IMHO it's pretty clear at that point they were most interested in rationalizing the SM line, players didn't react well with spending, and we've been seeing years of backpedaling, returning to stuff like crazy-ornate storm shields and other grimdark do-dads, and now full marine faction-themed kits, and marines have for ages had the disproportionate number of those: this isn't so much BA players were happy with it, as they weren't and it's a return to years of conditioned expectation (or, phrased above, entitlement)

t.

Ya see- you are mentioning marine players not being happy with waves and new waves coming when other factions haven't had any waves or the model support being a single character and maybe a squad.. its a bit oblivious to how well maitre players are catered for relative to other factions.
Having said that I'm not begrudging Templar fans this release- it looks great, I'm just shocked they ae complaining about it.

Well, it depends on why, I think. Complaining at getting stuff, sure, thats odd.
Complaining that the sculpts aren't very good? Or the bits are stuffed with scout stuff that will raise the price significantly? That seems more understandable- much the same way people were underwhelmed by the plastic banshee sculpts despite how great it should have felt to get them in plastic after all these years.

To be fair, the only reason the previous upgrade sprue had so much stuff in it, was because, well, Black Templars never had a plastic infantry kit, and now they have two. So, naturally, all the good bits from the old upgrade sprue migrated to the dedicated kits.

Mostly a good way of looking at it, I think. Templars certainly get a load of specific bits with this release.

It's worth considering though that design paradigms now and fifteen years ago differ significantly. Marines then had far greater interchangeability and fewer variations like the myriad plus one bolt weapons we have now, and the old Templars upgrade sprue felt a lot more valuable because it could be applied almost universally. The new sprue has far greater limitations. Having one of each relic is cool. Having multiples isn't worth much. Weapons specific to Scouts don't account at all for the very large variety of Primaris kits that already exist and only upgrade a single new kit that could have had those bits instead. Chained weapons don't exist because providing even one of each Primaris bolt weapon would take up an entire sprue on its own. Getting most of the interchangeability on Primaris from heads and shoulder pads, the ratio of those to other stuff on the sprue does not bode well for the eventual price of the sprue nor repeat buys to get enough of the desirable bits for a whole army.

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

Voss wrote:
Re-roll 1s to wound on psykers is trivial or redundant (to more universal abilities that marines can just get), so will almost never matter.

Not really easy to cover everything. They could drop LTs for something else and then it's all upside against Thousand Sons and GK.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

To be fair, the only reason the previous upgrade sprue had so much stuff in it, was because, well, Black Templars never had a plastic infantry kit, and now they have two. So, naturally, all the good bits from the old upgrade sprue migrated to the dedicated kits.

When you're right, you're right. Good point!

 bullyboy wrote:
It wouldn't bother me if they would just release the burden on the land raider and stormraven. I could care less about rhinos and razorbacks (torn on drop pods, but probably should be allowed too). Primaris crusader squad should be allowed in a damned Land Raider Crusader!!

This is what you get for using Steroid Bois instead of Proper Marines...

Have to wonder if the ancient in the latest article picture is the rumored BT ancient. Which is just the blade guard ancient with some bits swapped in. Not the first time leaks have mistaken an already released model for something new.

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

As a minor quibble...

Black Templars have been a "Codex" chapter since they got rolled back in however long ago. They had every single release that everyone else did. From Centurions to Primaris, they've been there. They just haven't gotten things that match their aesthetic.

Fast forward to now and they're getting:
-A dedicated Lieutenant(Castellan) in Primaris and non-Primaris forms as a model.
-Helbrecht
-Grimaldus
-Crusader Squad
-Sword Brethren
-One of the most significant upgrade frames to date, which includes Chapter/Crusade Relics and a whole other weapon option for the Neophytes within the Crusader Squad.

By comparison? If you weren't Ultramarines or one of the snowflake books, you got...
-Primaris named character
-Upgrade sprue, doubled, that had standard options and shoulder pads with an itty bitty transfer sheet that could maybe do a single squad.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Now, all you need to do is remember your Space Marine rules, your Chapter rules, your current Combat Doctrine, how your Chapter affects said Combat Doctrine, your Vow, your Passion, the aura from the Warlord Trait, and the Castellan, and the Marshall and the prayer from the Chaplain, and the strat you played at the start of the round! So accessible!!!

You forgot yours stratagems too.

I've started playing in 3rd, and back then playing the game was way, WAY more straightforward, and yet way more strategical (the removal of vehicle facing and templates just totally annihilated the positioning strategy side of the game, but they had to remove it because that was "too complicated").

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

-Upgrade sprue, doubled, that had standard options and shoulder pads with an itty bitty transfer sheet that could maybe do a single squad.

Some chapters got a single upgrade sprue and only that, like Ultramarines or Blood Angels, and some like Raven Guard or White Scars got the doubled up upgrade sprue and transfers. I assume that's because Marine kits come with Ultramarine and BA and DA transfers by default?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Honestly, IDK... yeah, marine players can seem and be entitled, but

Fun fact, I'm not even a space marine player, I'm a god damn necron (from their 3rd ed days) and Tyranid player mainly. The only marines I ever cared about where the BT and I haven't played them since their codex days in 3rd.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
and then you're really just talking about someone who felt those didn't match what they felt were those details, noting that it will probably be quite a while before we see anything else for the army so this is what they've got.

Nah, he's just being an ass. A petty, childish, and sadly whitekhnighty ass.

Every single things I said in my post is objectively undisputable, and that's why he defaulted on the very sad ad hominem (is anyone really taking stuff like "entitled" seriously anyway?) and whataboutism.

Voss wrote:
Well, it depends on why, I think. Complaining at getting stuff, sure, thats odd.
Complaining that the sculpts aren't very good? Or the bits are stuffed with scout stuff that will raise the price significantly? That seems more understandable- much the same way people were underwhelmed by the plastic banshee sculpts despite how great it should have felt to get them in plastic after all these years.

Hey look, someone that actually pay attention to what has been said rather than being an ass!

HN wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
and then you're really just talking about someone who felt those didn't match what they felt were those details, noting that it will probably be quite a while before we see anything else for the army so this is what they've got.

Nah, he's just being an ass. A petty, childish, and sadly whitekhnighty ass.

If you asked anyone else here, they'd probably call me a petty, childish ass, yes, but also an extreme black knight, and complain about me gaking up half the threads with hating on GW.

I just think complaining about the Marine relases, when they're without a doubt the most supported army in Warhammer history and have had hundreds of relases in the time other armies had a big round 0, is just laughable. And there isn't really any better word for it other than entitlement.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:


If you asked anyone else here, they'd probably call me a petty, childish ass, yes, but also an extreme black knight, and complain about me gaking up half the threads with hating on GW.

I see that you are indeed very full of yourself and not just a bit egotistic.
Also, I literally couldn't care less about what "other marines" get, by yelling "BUT MARINES GOT A LOT SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT" you are doing the exact opposite of being "a black knight" (what a moronic lingo), you are just excusing GW gakky job.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I just think complaining about the Marine releases, when they're without a doubt the most supported army in Warhammer history and have had hundreds of releases in the time other armies had a big round 0, is just laughable. And there isn't really any better word for it other than entitlement.

Again, what does these "hundreads of releases" have to do with the actual QUALITY of the specific one in question?

Again, I'm mainly a Tyranid and Necron player, so just shove your "entitled marine player" bit up your ass and try to pull your head of of it while you are at it to answer that question :
What exactly does the volume of other marine release has to do with the quality of a specific release?

Just because they got a lot of it mean that SUDDENLY you cannot say ANYTHING bad about it?
Are you for real?

So I guess now the Necrons can't say anything about their Destroyer lord and base Lord minis or how half the new stuff they got is monopose without gear options because it was made for Indomitus without any thought for the solo release they may have later, because "they got a LOT more release than eldars"?
Do you even realize how stupid that whataboutism gak is or are you just too far gone for that?

The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

HN wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:


If you asked anyone else here, they'd probably call me a petty, childish ass, yes, but also an extreme black knight, and complain about me gaking up half the threads with hating on GW.

I see that you are indeed very full of yourself and not just a bit egotistic.
Also, I literally couldn't care less about what "other marines" get, by yelling "BUT MARINES GOT A LOT SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT" you are doing the exact opposite of being "a black knight" (what a moronic lingo), you are just excusing GW gakky job.

There are no "other marines". Black Templars are just Marines painted Black. That's all they ever were, and that's what all chapters always were, Marines painted diffrently.

[quote=[HN] 800235 11231192 null]

 SergentSilver wrote:
How much you want to bet they make the Primaris 3W with 10thEd in a couple years, then send all remaining FB to Legends at the start of 11thEd a couple years after that? It'll give them just enough time to make Primaris copies of every FB unit so they can say they aren't taking any options away while forcing all long time SM players to restart their collection due to all FB models being unplayable. That way they can sell everyone the same products they already had under a slightly new appearance and with Primaris post-it noted into the name.

Nah, that would just break the game and risk alienating too many people for no reason.
The simple fact that they gave all marines 2W is a proof that their plan of making "supa marine" didn't worked as well as they hoped and they lost a lot more players in the process than they expected.

I think the obvious path they are going toward is simply to erase the whole distinction between FB and Primaris, just like they removed the distinction between Cataphractii and Tartaros to roll them under the "relic" tag.
A marine will be just a marine again without distinction of generation, the primaris will just be MK10 armor and that's it.

They are probably going to just remove all the FB from sale at some point OR (more probably) use HH2.0 to roll out true scalled FB that are the same size than primaris, because everyone know that the primaris thing has alienated quite a decent chunk of their consumers and the only way to fix that is to bring back the old marin looks.

They may even rerelease the intercessors and other primaris units to make them mixed other mark of armors that have been truescalled, and everyone will pretend the whole primaris thing never really happen, or was just "a new armor type" and nothing much.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

Ultramarines upgrade sprue was part of the initial run which also included BA, DA, and SW. Those sets were more intended to allow for you to "customize" the initial Primaris Captain and Intercessors+Gravis models.

Each of those(including Ultramarines, whatever people might attempt to argue) received a unique Lt model to boot. SW got theirs with Tooth and Claw, Wake the Dead saw the Ultramarines in All But Product Info Lt, DA+BA got theirs with their codices before that.

beast_gts wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Big chungus Castellan confirmed to be Primaris by rhe Warcom team on twitter

Bah! Got a link? (They said yesterday he wasn't, as did Knotley and some other GW staffers...)

Http://m.imgur.com/ia7uQRA

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

There are no "other marines". Black Templars are just Marines painted Black. That's all they ever were, and that's what all chapters always were, Marines painted diffrently.

Aight, so you are just going to dodge the question.
How about you just sit down and shut up then, since you clearly don't have anything to say?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

Ultramarines upgrade sprue was part of the initial run which also included BA, DA, and SW. Those sets were more intended to allow for you to "customize" the initial Primaris Captain and Intercessors+Gravis models.

Each of those(including Ultramarines, whatever people might attempt to argue) received a unique Lt model to boot. SW got theirs with Tooth and Claw, Wake the Dead saw the Ultramarines in All But Product Info Lt, DA+BA got theirs with their codices before that.

To be fair, is there any diffrence aesthetically between a generic Marine and an Ultramarine? They don't really have anything unique about them. The laurel wreaths, the Roman-style crests, the baltea-style dangly bits, none of those are unique to Ultramarines, you get them on generic characters, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers, Black Templars, what have you.

Pretty much the only way GW can denote a Marine as Ultramarine-specific is by spamming the logo all over them.

[quote=[HN] 800235 11231630 null]

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

There are no "other marines". Black Templars are just Marines painted Black. That's all they ever were, and that's what all chapters always were, Marines painted diffrently.

Aight, so you are just going to dodge the question.
How about you just sit down and shut up then, since you clearly don't have anything to say?

Abaddon303 wrote:
11 posts in and you're already telling people to shut up. You'll fit in perfectly on Dakka...

Because my post count actually matter in the topic at hand... how exactly?
Is there a rule somewhere that specify you have to have a certain post count to point out logical inconsistency in someone else posts?
Should I wait 50 posts to gain the right to point out when someone makes argument in bad faith based on inconsistent logic and covered by selectively ignoring part of posts they respond to or is that something I can do after reaching 100 posts?

Do I need to start spamming every thread with "I'm here too guys" post like he do so I too can have an over inflated post count? How does this works, please tell me, and while we are at it, explain to me the concept of derailing thread since you seem to know about it.

Also, I was wondering... did you even realized that I only told him to "shup up" after he clearly signaled he wasn't willing to actual answer direct question to defend his previous statements, or were you just too focused on jumping to some easy conclusion to realize that?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

As a minor quibble...

Black Templars have been a "Codex" chapter since they got rolled back in however long ago. They had every single release that everyone else did. From Centurions to Primaris, they've been there. They just haven't gotten things that match their aesthetic.

There is a reason why I wrote "releases specific to them".

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

Ultramarines upgrade sprue was part of the initial run which also included BA, DA, and SW. Those sets were more intended to allow for you to "customize" the initial Primaris Captain and Intercessors+Gravis models.

Each of those(including Ultramarines, whatever people might attempt to argue) received a unique Lt model to boot. SW got theirs with Tooth and Claw, Wake the Dead saw the Ultramarines in All But Product Info Lt, DA+BA got theirs with their codices before that.

To be fair, is there any diffrence aesthetically between a generic Marine and an Ultramarine? They don't really have anything unique about them. The laurel wreaths, the Roman-style crests, the baltea-style dangly bits, none of those are unique to Ultramarines, you get them on generic characters, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers, Black Templars, what have you.

Pretty much the only way GW can denote a Marine as Ultramarine-specific is by spamming the logo all over them.

Kinda, somewhat, mostly yes, but not exactly.

If you look at how Ultramarines and Marines in general developed the aesthetic of the Big Four is embodied by and later derived from the 2nd ed Captain models with the rest of the Marines sharing the generic model line with a fitting color scheme and painted details. Throughout 2nd ed the Big Four got special characters and three of them (which is to say, not Ultramarines) metal sculpts for units that further defined their look. 3rd ed started to broaden the visual definitions in model form with bits for some of the other first founding chapters and Black Templars. The "Roman style" for Ultramarines outside of characters didn't see representation until the Honor Guard models of 4th ed. 3rd and 4th ed also added special characters for the first founding chapters (with the exception of Iron Hands), Black Templars and Crimson Fists.

For all intents and purposes Ultramarines have always been generic Marines with blingy characters. It was always implied that a generic Marine is a perfectly good representation of an Ultramarine as what the baseline is for Marines, and divergent Marines/chapters were measured by how they were different to that.

What complicates things is that while the lower ranked Ultramarines serve as a baseline from which others deviate and define their own, unique look, the same simply isn't true once you consider the officers that have a look to them that is very much their own and that does not form any baseline. They're blinged up in a style specific to Ultramarines in a way that is no different to how a Space Wolf character is blinged up to represent the Space Wolves style. When you consider how we got to the varying chapter styles, that is by throwing some of the details present on characters on normal Marines, it's not as simple as saying that Ultramarines and generic Marines are one and the same. There has simply been a historic omission of less blingy lower Ultramarine rank bits.

That's just the model side as well. With time, and especially after GW decided to describe the Horus Heresy down to the tiniest detail and let authors run wild with it, chapters/legions and their appearance, including the Ultramarines, have seen a massive increase in definition and divergence from what in the model department for practical reasons has to be represented by a generic look that can fit any chapter or legion.

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

As a minor quibble...

Black Templars have been a "Codex" chapter since they got rolled back in however long ago. They had every single release that everyone else did. From Centurions to Primaris, they've been there. They just haven't gotten things that match their aesthetic.

There is a reason why I wrote "releases specific to them".

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The Ultramarines upgrade sprue was pretty bad too though. A Caesar cut, a tiny blade, and then generic Bald head, 80s auspex, and a purity seal.

Ultramarines upgrade sprue was part of the initial run which also included BA, DA, and SW. Those sets were more intended to allow for you to "customize" the initial Primaris Captain and Intercessors+Gravis models.

Each of those(including Ultramarines, whatever people might attempt to argue) received a unique Lt model to boot. SW got theirs with Tooth and Claw, Wake the Dead saw the Ultramarines in All But Product Info Lt, DA+BA got theirs with their codices before that.

To be fair, is there any diffrence aesthetically between a generic Marine and an Ultramarine? They don't really have anything unique about them. The laurel wreaths, the Roman-style crests, the baltea-style dangly bits, none of those are unique to Ultramarines, you get them on generic characters, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers, Black Templars, what have you.

Pretty much the only way GW can denote a Marine as Ultramarine-specific is by spamming the logo all over them.

Kinda, somewhat, mostly yes, but not exactly.

If you look at how Ultramarines and Marines in general developed the aesthetic of the Big Four is embodied by and later derived from the 2nd ed Captain models with the rest of the Marines sharing the generic model line with a fitting color scheme and painted details. Throughout 2nd ed the Big Four got special characters and three of them (which is to say, not Ultramarines) metal sculpts for units that further defined their look. 3rd ed started to broaden the visual definitions in model form with bits for some of the other first founding chapters and Black Templars. The "Roman style" for Ultramarines outside of characters didn't see representation until the Honor Guard models of 4th ed. 3rd and 4th ed also added special characters for the first founding chapters (with the exception of Iron Hands), Black Templars and Crimson Fists.

For all intents and purposes Ultramarines have always been generic Marines with blingy characters. It was always implied that a generic Marine is a perfectly good representation of an Ultramarine as what the baseline is for Marines, and divergent Marines/chapters were measured by how they were different to that.

What complicates things is that while the lower ranked Ultramarines serve as a baseline from which others deviate and define their own, unique look, the same simply isn't true once you consider the officers that have a look to them that is very much their own and that does not form any baseline. They're blinged up in a style specific to Ultramarines in a way that is no different to how a Space Wolf character is blinged up to represent the Space Wolves style. When you consider how we got to the varying chapter styles, that is by throwing some of the details present on characters on normal Marines, it's not as simple as saying that Ultramarines and generic Marines are one and the same. There has simply been a historic omission of less blingy lower Ultramarine rank bits.

That's just the model side as well. With time, and especially after GW decided to describe the Horus Heresy down to the tiniest detail and let authors run wild with it, chapters/legions and their appearance, including the Ultramarines, have seen a massive increase in definition and divergence from what in the model department for practical reasons has to be represented by a generic look that can fit any chapter or legion.

Fair enough, i rest my case.

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

And importantly, unlike many other Marines Black Templars got no model releases specific to them in those fifteen years so Templar players are only now catching up to the brave new world players of more supported chapters already had time to adapt to and complain about. It'll pass, but this is the time if ever there was one to voice concerns over Primaris Templar kits.

As a minor quibble...

Black Templars have been a "Codex" chapter since they got rolled back in however long ago. They had every single release that everyone else did. From Centurions to Primaris, they've been there. They just haven't gotten things that match their aesthetic.

There is a reason why I wrote "releases specific to them".

Right, but it's important to note that it's been how long since they were a separate codex?

That's more of why I said what I did. Up until Primaris Shrike, Raven Guard hadn't seen anything outside of FW since Shrike got a model in the first place. They didn't even have transfers available in the boxed sets. Salamanders hadn't seen anything since Vulkan He'stan, Iron Hands since the Firstborn upgrade pack way in the day, etc. Only the Dornian Chapters and Successors plus Ultramarines, in the main codex, would commonly see releases.

Given that Black Templars had that ridiculously packed upgrade set though, I can understand why it was thought they didn't really "need" releases once they got rolled into the book.

On a non argument front, does it look like they changed the neck sockets of the neophytes/scouts? The neophyte heads on the upgrade sprue look like they have the standard marine neck instead of the alternate one used on the FB scout kits. If it is, that means it is now possible to do straight head swaps with the rest of the marine range, especially helmets

chaos0xomega wrote:
Also, Abhor the Witch just seems absolutely awful compared to Accept Any Challenge

The more things change...