Speaking of cope,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s more to reinforce we’ve nothing like enough information for any particular conclusion.

People were adamant that 2nd Edition wasn’t selling. People were adamant that Legions Imperialis wasn’t selling. Some folk just love to whine, and will interpret anything as support for said whine. Ref folk turning up in this thread as Outrage Farmers who, rather conspicuously, have never commented on Heresy stuff prior.

So…yeah. We’ve a single online retailer offering a healthier than normal discount. And that’s all we know.

lmao.

Of course we have enough information for a particular conclusion.
Information: a major retailer has decided to offer a heretofore unprecedented discount on a tentpole product that is still in the preorder window.
Conclusion: a major retailer felt their Saturnine sales were soft enough that they had to sacrifice their expected profits in an effort to achieve acceptable return.

We can make this conclusion based on a wealth of accumulated knowledge, including wildly theoretical leaps like "how stores work"

For some reason you're licking boot and attempting to die on the most logic broiest of hills. "Attention, good sirs," he spake, adjusting his fedora and blue-tinted spectacles. "Is it not merely possible that the owner of Wayland Games is merely a tremendous fan of The Horus Heresy, and is merely engaged in a noble campaign to promote the health and success of said aforementioned tabletopian gaming system, by investisacrificing his own monetary currencies? Merely?"

Yeah dude yeah it's totally possible. It's possible you can drink a gallon of toilet water and get Toiletman superpowers, too. We simply cannot know FOR SURE.

Every edition comes with complaints so it can be hard to tell if this is just the expected or if there are actually enough people put off by the changes that it will not be as successful as previous edition(s). Only time will tell at this point.

 Albertorius wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Oh that's not a good look

What's interesting to me is it implies internet hype/dooming has a massive impact on sales, as I don't see a reason for HH 3.0 to tank other than the leaks of how horrible it is. Aren't we supposed to be the loud minority, either way?

I have seen some cope-adjacent commentary about this. Some thinking seems to be that it's either the units in the box not being greatly appealing for either new players or veterans, or the rules changes turning veterans off.

One source of that is the Lords of War youtube channel (this video). But they also predicted the Saturnine box would be a gangbusters release and then walked it back when they saw the soft sales and started workshopping the excuses I present above.

There's a huge list of reasons it won't be a massive success, the negativity wave is just the icing on the cake really. You have to remember the game is 95% space marines and people are forever fed up of having space marines shoved in their face. For a lot of people 40k is the entry path to 30k, so a lot of them simply lose access to their faction of choice in return for... marines as far as the eye can see.

That was exactly the same for the 2.0 boxes, though, and it seems they sold better, initially at least.

It did because you had a decade or more of HH curious who didn't want to dive in whilst it was all resin, so they grabbed that market chunk with 2.0, there's no assurances that they'll all want the 3.0 box however as they either may dislike saturnine units or simply not need another 40 dudes and a turret etc.

It's also an expensive "what if I give this a go?" which is a big detractor. It's also not really a proper entry product, there's no real division of forces or rules to support the two halves (whatever they may be) playing off against each other. In fact the whole box is basically a giant start collecting to look at it differently, for a sub-game of old 40k that is larger and more expensive to get into.

There have been two marine boxes already, maybe I'm projecting my own feelings on it, but I can't see someone who has built up a force around a particular mark of armor being willing to pay for a big box of even more marines.

Especially when GW decided to just spam the same 5 poses.

Add to that the edition change pessimism and the box seems like a hard sell.

And maybe you can argue the box isn't for existing players, but I don't see HH having the same lifecycle of new player churn as 40k. I think GW miscalculated in that regard.

Dudeface wrote:
It did because you had a decade or more of HH curious who didn't want to dive in whilst it was all resin, so they grabbed that market chunk with 2.0, there's no assurances that they'll all want the 3.0 box however as they either may dislike saturnine units or simply not need another 40 dudes and a turret etc.

It's also an expensive "what if I give this a go?" which is a big detractor. It's also not really a proper entry product, there's no real division of forces or rules to support the two halves (whatever they may be) playing off against each other. In fact the whole box is basically a giant start collecting to look at it differently, for a sub-game of old 40k that is larger and more expensive to get into.

So you think now there's a sort of overabundance then? For the price at least, which I absolutely agree is a turnoff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScarletRose wrote:
There have been two marine boxes already, maybe I'm projecting my own feelings on it, but I can't see someone who has built up a force around a particular mark of armor being willing to pay for a big box of even more marines.

Especially when GW decided to just spam the same 5 poses.

Add to that the edition change pessimism and the box seems like a hard sell.

And maybe you can argue the box isn't for existing players, but I don't see HH having the same lifecycle of new player churn as 40k. I think GW miscalculated in that regard.

More like four, if we count the two HH boardgames that came filled to the brim with marines for about half as much as this box.

 Albertorius wrote:

That was exactly the same for the 2.0 boxes, though, and it seems they sold better, initially at least.

Big issue I can see is that 2.0 box was plastic spartan and contemptor plus a ton of infantry that could be used in 40k armies as well at the time, so there were 2 markets for the box, not just hh players

The Saturnine is not a very attractive design, it looks mostly like all that 40k Primaris Toy Ghak...

I agree, not many need more Marines, or a new (not needed) unit like the Saturnine, or the new Dread.

Buchpreisbindung is indeed, a law.

 Altruizine wrote:
Speaking of cope,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s more to reinforce we’ve nothing like enough information for any particular conclusion.

People were adamant that 2nd Edition wasn’t selling. People were adamant that Legions Imperialis wasn’t selling. Some folk just love to whine, and will interpret anything as support for said whine. Ref folk turning up in this thread as Outrage Farmers who, rather conspicuously, have never commented on Heresy stuff prior.

So…yeah. We’ve a single online retailer offering a healthier than normal discount. And that’s all we know.

lmao.

Of course we have enough information for a particular conclusion.
Information: a major retailer has decided to offer a heretofore unprecedented discount on a tentpole product that is still in the preorder window.
Conclusion: a major retailer felt their Saturnine sales were soft enough that they had to sacrifice their expected profits in an effort to achieve acceptable return.

We can make this conclusion based on a wealth of accumulated knowledge, including wildly theoretical leaps like "how stores work"

For some reason you're licking boot and attempting to die on the most logic broiest of hills. "Attention, good sirs," he spake, adjusting his fedora and blue-tinted spectacles. "Is it not merely possible that the owner of Wayland Games is merely a tremendous fan of The Horus Heresy, and is merely engaged in a noble campaign to promote the health and success of said aforementioned tabletopian gaming system, by investisacrificing his own monetary currencies? Merely?"

Yeah dude yeah it's totally possible. It's possible you can drink a gallon of toilet water and get Toiletman superpowers, too. We simply cannot know FOR SURE.

Let’s ingnore the rest of your mince.

A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

I’m sure you can see The Underpants Gnomes logic of your claim, yes? Because if you can, you’ll need to try much, much harder to convince me

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

The biggest independent, Warhammer selling online store in UK and Europe feels that they are not getting back their investment on the new HH releases and therefore has deeply discounted them before it's even released, just on the strength of the preorders.

That amounts to what we can see, nothing else regarding the sales of GW itself, or other storefronts (although others seem to be further discounting their stuff too), and of course, it's way too early to say if a full edition of a game is a dud or not just with preorders.

But we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them.

AoD hit more marks than this IMO.
Major plastic boost (Spartan, fully posable Contemptor, another armour mark) was the big one.
Throw in Mk6 being a big nostalgia hit for a lot of people due to Rogue Trader.

Saturnine armour didn't really exist outside of fanwork which was assumed to be one of the older Terminator models.
Mk2 likewise is a cool armour but not the same level of history and iconic look as Mk6.
The gun turret just isn't as big a draw as a big plastic tank and the Saturnine Dread is nowhere near as famous as the Contemptor nor as sought after.
It's like someone had an idea of what nostalgia is conceptually, but hasn't ever actually experienced it.

RazorEdge wrote:

I agree, not many need more Marines, or a new (not needed) unit like the Saturnine, or the new Dread.

You're right, I don't need more Marines (that ship sailed decades ago), Satunine, or the new Saturnine Dread. I want them. It's an important difference.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

The biggest independent, Warhammer selling online store in UK and Europe feels that they are not getting back their investment on the new HH releases and therefore has deeply discounted them before it's even released, just on the strength of the preorders.

That amounts to what we can see, nothing else regarding the sales of GW itself, or other storefronts (although others seem to be further discounting their stuff too), and of course, it's way too early to say if a full edition of a game is a dud or not just with preorders.

But we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them.

And yet…..the four I buy from with varying regularity and preference haven’t.

What’s more likely? Wayland may have over ordered. Wayland might be trying to steal a march and future sales with a deeper discount. Or the game isn’t selling anywhere ever, despite other large online suppliers not deepening their discount?

There are of course other possibilities (maybe Wayland is somehow deep in the financial poop, and need a swift return is an out there, unsupported but ultimately possible explanation) I’ve not covered.

But the Droop Group are out in force. And as with Altruizine, attacking the messenger rather than the message. Which is definitely a sign you’re definitely right and haven’t been given at least pause for thought, whether or not the pause lasts terribly long.

It might very well be a dud. I don’t, and haven’t, ruled that out. But given we’re necessarily dealing with extremely limited factual information? I’m gonna take the piss out of premature doom mongers, doom mongering on account they’ve seemingly eff all better to do.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

The biggest independent, Warhammer selling online store in UK and Europe feels that they are not getting back their investment on the new HH releases and therefore has deeply discounted them before it's even released, just on the strength of the preorders.

That amounts to what we can see, nothing else regarding the sales of GW itself, or other storefronts (although others seem to be further discounting their stuff too), and of course, it's way too early to say if a full edition of a game is a dud or not just with preorders.

But we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them.

And yet…..the four I buy from with varying regularity and preference haven’t.

Yes, that tracks with what you've quoted.

 Altruizine wrote:

Yeah dude yeah it's totally possible. It's possible you can drink a gallon of toilet water and get Toiletman superpowers, too. We simply cannot know FOR SURE.

Not with that attitude you can't, no.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get to drinking!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
Speaking of cope,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s more to reinforce we’ve nothing like enough information for any particular conclusion.

People were adamant that 2nd Edition wasn’t selling. People were adamant that Legions Imperialis wasn’t selling. Some folk just love to whine, and will interpret anything as support for said whine. Ref folk turning up in this thread as Outrage Farmers who, rather conspicuously, have never commented on Heresy stuff prior.

So…yeah. We’ve a single online retailer offering a healthier than normal discount. And that’s all we know.

lmao.

Of course we have enough information for a particular conclusion.
Information: a major retailer has decided to offer a heretofore unprecedented discount on a tentpole product that is still in the preorder window.
Conclusion: a major retailer felt their Saturnine sales were soft enough that they had to sacrifice their expected profits in an effort to achieve acceptable return.

We can make this conclusion based on a wealth of accumulated knowledge, including wildly theoretical leaps like "how stores work"

For some reason you're licking boot and attempting to die on the most logic broiest of hills. "Attention, good sirs," he spake, adjusting his fedora and blue-tinted spectacles. "Is it not merely possible that the owner of Wayland Games is merely a tremendous fan of The Horus Heresy, and is merely engaged in a noble campaign to promote the health and success of said aforementioned tabletopian gaming system, by investisacrificing his own monetary currencies? Merely?"

Yeah dude yeah it's totally possible. It's possible you can drink a gallon of toilet water and get Toiletman superpowers, too. We simply cannot know FOR SURE.

Let’s ingnore the rest of your mince.

A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

I’m sure you can see The Underpants Gnomes logic of your claim, yes? Because if you can, you’ll need to try much, much harder to convince me

The big box for the new edition, which suffers from not being a fomo item (god it hurts to type that), has been allocated to stores based on their expected interest in the big summer release. Wayland is the one with the big discount, yes, but literally nowhere has reported any stock shortfalls, pending orders for 2nd waves or anything of the ilk.

This gives 3 likely outcomes:

1. Stores bought far too much and are in trouble - this is bad for them and bad as an indicator of the success of HH if their sales estimates were off other similar boxes
2. GW made too many - this is bad for GW as they have excess stock and likely over-egged their forecast. It's bad for the game as it leads to lower support
3. It simply isn't that popular - this is bad for everyone

Right. But you’re still not covering all the bases.

How many did GW make? How many did Wayland order? How many has Wayland sold on pre-order? What about the other online discount sellers?

We don’t know. And we’ll never know.

What if Wayland wanted to order, let’s say with a number out my arse purely for demonstration, 1,000 copies. But someone blobbed the order, and typed 3,000?

There, you’re in a quandary. Because if they did over order? You assume there’s no Sale Or Return contract with GW as the seller.

I don’t know and won’t pretend to know what the truth of the matter is, including on the Sale or Return. But I will point out for all the complaints about GW toward 3rd Party Sellers, a lack of Sale or Return isn’t something I recall turning up. Granted, that’s not proof either way.

Ultimately, outside of people with nothing better to do than whine about a company that doesn’t care about them? We’ve nowt beyond simple observation.

I’m happy to admit I’m wrong on these things, if and/or when better and greater information is available. But I’m confident the Droop Group will just flounce away on to the next moan, like nothing ever happened.

I was strongly tempted by the age of darkness box because it seemed like a great deal. I held off because I don't really need more marines and the tank though cool is imo impractically huge, but I did consider buying it a good few times.

With this box I was honestly never that interested. I like the armour on the marines more in this one, but I dislike the Saturnine designs on everything but the dreadnaught and hate the scale creep involved, and I'm not at all interested in gun turrets. Even if I liked that stuff, I still felt it was a worse deal than Age of Darkness, and knowing it's joining the 3 year threadmill makes my perception of the value of the rulebook drop quite a lot (whereas before I saw Heresy as a "stable" game, albeit using an edition of 40K I had negative memories of).

So it's not unbelievable to me that people are just cool on this box because it doesn't represent good value to them.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

The biggest independent, Warhammer selling online store in UK and Europe feels that they are not getting back their investment on the new HH releases and therefore has deeply discounted them before it's even released, just on the strength of the preorders.

That amounts to what we can see, nothing else regarding the sales of GW itself, or other storefronts (although others seem to be further discounting their stuff too), and of course, it's way too early to say if a full edition of a game is a dud or not just with preorders.

But we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them.

And yet…..the four I buy from with varying regularity and preference haven’t.

Yes, that tracks with what you've quoted.

Please don’t edit quotes in that way. I’m happy to assume it was a hamfisted attempt at paraphrasing, but it’s still extremely bad form.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Right. But you’re still not covering all the bases.

How many did GW make? How many did Wayland order? How many has Wayland sold on pre-order? What about the other online discount sellers?

We don’t know. And we’ll never know.

What if Wayland wanted to order, let’s say with a number out my arse purely for demonstration, 1,000 copies. But someone blobbed the order, and typed 3,000?

There, you’re in a quandary. Because if they did over order? You assume there’s no Sale Or Return contract with GW as the seller.

I don’t know and won’t pretend to know what the truth of the matter is, including on the Sale or Return. But I will point out for all the complaints about GW toward 3rd Party Sellers, a lack of Sale or Return isn’t something I recall turning up. Granted, that’s not proof either way.

Ultimately, outside of people with nothing better to do than whine about a company that doesn’t care about them? We’ve nowt beyond simple observation.

I’m happy to admit I’m wrong on these things, if and/or when better and greater information is available. But I’m confident the Droop Group will just flounce away on to the next moan, like nothing ever happened.

We know GW made sufficiently more than they've sold.

We know Wayland bought more than they sold, we know, to the best of my knowledge, this is true of all online retailers.

We know typically launch boxes tend to sell out with GW or cause stock issues.

We know a lot of other kits are out of stock at GW.

What we don't know is whether they wasted production on this vs other kits.

We don't know if GW expected to sell as many as they made.

We don't know numbers for retailers.

This is all very funky and yes, you are right, it is not conclusive evidence of a problem. I would argue its good evidence of it not being a rip roaring success at the least.

I... cut what I was not answering to, and changed styles on all of four words of my own comment to highlight it and show what I was answering?

The rest are just your speculations, which I rather not answer as neither I not you have any actual info about.

I'll say it again: I think we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them, because of their actions. For what reason? I don't know, and I don't care for this specific line of thought, nor do I care for what other stores are doing.

Hope that clears that up.

Again, it all boils down to how many were made, and outside of end customers, who bought or were sold what.

Certainly as a trend, GW seem to have had fewer stock issues in recent months compared to recent history, going back to Indomitus.

As I said at the time, and still maintain, selling out and not having enough for everyone is a nice problem to have, but a Problem all the same.

What we’d need for any kind of accurate comparison are the production and sales numbers for 2nd and 3rd Ed.

But we’re simply never going to have those. Ever. From anyone. Except some Johnny No-Stars off of out of The Internet, who should be considered entirely suspect unless they can name, verify and evidence their source.

And so, our only conclusion? Is that GW have produced More Than Enough.

Why have Wayland offered a deeper discount? Go ask Wayland. You might get a straight answer, you might not. But do brace yourself for the answer not necessarily supporting an existing conclusion, at all.

And again, that answers not to what I was stating. No matter.

But, to your conclusion?

And so, our only conclusion? Is that GW have produced More Than Enough.

...no? Our only conclusion would be that GW sold Wayland More Than Enough, to the point that they're doing a deep discount on the preorders.

Sometimes GW gets their estimations "just right" for a launch period and most people who want a copy get it and there isn't a big nor understock.


Sometimes GW over-estimates and we get overstock

Sometimes GW under-estimates and we get understock.




The latter is often the most troubling for customers and the former for GW. In the end we see all three happening and often as not all three are used to predict and justify that the sky is falling and GW have made the biggest mistake in the world.

Lets not forget this product has a 3 year shelf life at minimum. The actual models in it have a shelf life that can be measured in decades and will generally retain value and could even go up if they are withdrawn from sale in the future.



We also have very little real world understanding of the actual numbers. Unless retailers come forward with hard numbers for us to work with we don't really know how things compare sales wise. Did GW produce VASTLY too many kits; did GW over-supply Wayland; Did Wayland over-order more than normal; is there other stuff going on like GW having a policy that projects which get X finances for their duration get Y amount that must be spent on the starter set

There are a LOT of whatifs and honestly we don't have enough cards in our hands to tell.


Heck it might be the production numbers and prices are 100% on point and what's actually happened is that the market at large is REALLY straining because of the continued problems risen by wars, tariffs and cost of living. So this game could be under-selling but purely because everyone is getting more and more financially drained at large and the big pandemic casual market is burning out because of that.

 Albertorius wrote:
I... cut what I was not answering to, and changed styles on all of four words of my own comment to highlight it and show what I was answering?

The rest are just your speculations, which I rather not answer as neither I not you have any actual info about.

I'll say it again: I think we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them, because of their actions. For what reason? I don't know, and I don't care for this specific line of thought, nor do I care for what other stores are doing.

Hope that clears that up.

We can conclude nothing.

There are many possible reasons why Wayland might’ve increase their discount. I’ve suggested some possibilities, and hopefully made it clear those were by no means the only possibilities.

But we’ve Bad Faith Actors in this very thread desperate to pretend their claim isn’t only The Truth, but The Only Possibility.

Again, I’m perfectly happy to be wrong, should further evidence and information come to light. Will the Droop Group do so? No. They’ll just slink off into the peanut gallery once again. Because their only interest appears to be hating a company which doesn’t even know or care that they exist, any more than said company knows or cares that I exist.

OTOH, for retailers over buying is a very bad thing, as it freezes money on non-moving assets. Which would explain Wayland's move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I... cut what I was not answering to, and changed styles on all of four words of my own comment to highlight it and show what I was answering?

The rest are just your speculations, which I rather not answer as neither I not you have any actual info about.

I'll say it again: I think we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them, because of their actions. For what reason? I don't know, and I don't care for this specific line of thought, nor do I care for what other stores are doing.

Hope that clears that up.

We can conclude nothing.

There are many possible reasons why Wayland might’ve increase their discount. I’ve suggested some possibilities, and hopefully made it clear those were by no means the only possibilities.

But we’ve Bad Faith Actors in this very thread desperate to pretend their claim isn’t only The Truth, but The Only Possibility.

Again, I’m perfectly happy to be wrong, should further evidence and information come to light. Will the Droop Group do so? No. They’ll just slink off into the peanut gallery once again. Because their only interest appears to be hating a company which doesn’t even know or care that they exist, any more than said company knows or cares that I exist.

Alright then, I guess I'm a bad faith actor then, now.

 Overread wrote:
Sometimes GW gets their estimations "just right" for a launch period and most people who want a copy get it and there isn't a big nor understock.


Sometimes GW over-estimates and we get overstock

Sometimes GW under-estimates and we get understock.




The latter is often the most troubling for customers and the former for GW. In the end we see all three happening and often as not all three are used to predict and justify that the sky is falling and GW have made the biggest mistake in the world.

Lets not forget this product has a 3 year shelf life at minimum. The actual models in it have a shelf life that can be measured in decades and will generally retain value and could even go up if they are withdrawn from sale in the future.



We also have very little real world understanding of the actual numbers. Unless retailers come forward with hard numbers for us to work with we don't really know how things compare sales wise. Did GW produce VASTLY too many kits; did GW over-supply Wayland; Did Wayland over-order more than normal; is there other stuff going on like GW having a policy that projects which get X finances for their duration get Y amount that must be spent on the starter set

There are a LOT of whatifs and honestly we don't have enough cards in our hands to tell.


Heck it might be the production numbers and prices are 100% on point and what's actually happened is that the market at large is REALLY straining because of the continued problems risen by wars, tariffs and cost of living. So this game could be under-selling but purely because everyone is getting more and more financially drained at large and the big pandemic casual market is burning out because of that.

Replying to say if I could give a thumbs up, I would.

Hi everyone,
Not posted on DakkaDakka for an age but just wanted to post and give some information. I am the owner of Wayland btw.

GW’s new release policy is a million times better than it used to be and gives us and other retailers time to estimate demand and order new releases.

We use historic data and try and gauge interest in new releases in a number of ways, normally we get it right. Sometimes we don’t. This is one of those times we got it wrong. No matter the discussions about the product, I think we had enough information to get it right, but this time we were over optimistic. Demand of this release is not where we expected it to be. And rather than sit on large amounts of stock, tying space and cash up for a long tail, we wanted to make sure we moved more stock than we had so launched the promotion. One thing we have already done and communicated to customers that had already ordered is that they would be getting store credit or vouchers for the difference if they had ordered at our original price as we don’t want customers feeling they have overpaid.

We have no idea what other retailers have ordered and generally we pay no attention, but I know we ordered a very large amount. So rather than see that cash tied up, we have made a change to make sure it’s moved.

We have to pay for stock before launch either by utilising credit with GW or cash, so one way or another it is tied up for however long it takes to sell through the stock and then realising a profit.

One other point is that GW are shifting to a new manufacturing facility and we I think were too wary of supply issues whilst they did it. So ordered more than we should have to last.

Hope that helps.

Rich

So there is that.

Also, mighty fine of you guys to match the discount for everyone. That's classy.

If we take it at face value. Apologies, but career has made me a suspicious Bar Steward.

But I’ll assume it’s on the level?

Does GW, or does GW not, offer Sale or Return? Either for cash or credit?

Please note I’m not asking to see a copy of any contract, as that’s frankly a wild request for such a trivial matter. But an answer either way would help inform.

Was that a question for me?

Sale or return, no, but we wouldn’t do it anyway. Our issue to resolve, not theirs.

Fair enough

Personally the only thing I am interested in with this boxset is the 40 marines and the normal Praetor. The Dreadnought is literally just a bigger Leviathan. Turret is very boring. Saturine Terminators look terrible, as does the Saturine Praetor, and I've no interest in the 3.0 rules at all. Even at £125, I am largely untempted.

Darkpshere are also matching the discount and dropping prices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rich1231 wrote:
Hi everyone,

Love the engagement and much appreciated.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

No one here has concluded the game is a dud. Insane strawman. People have said that one major store appears to be having problems with Saturnine demand, and allowed people to make their own deductive conclusions about what that might mean for other stores and wider demand.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And yet…..the four I buy from with varying regularity and preference haven’t.

Irrelevant. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Beyond that basic logical truth, not every store struggling with demand will react with an extra discount. In a landscape of soft demand many stores will still be able to absorb the loss and/or keep the product in stock forever until it sells for what they originally wanted. Or until they change their mind and discount it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What’s more likely? Wayland may have over ordered. Wayland might be trying to steal a march and future sales with a deeper discount. Or the game isn’t selling anywhere ever, despite other large online suppliers not deepening their discount?

There are of course other possibilities (maybe Wayland is somehow deep in the financial poop, and need a swift return is an out there, unsupported but ultimately possible explanation) I’ve not covered.

Untrue. It is not more likely that Wayland over-ordered or are in paralyzing secret deep. That conclusion depends on you assigning incompetence to them for which their is no evidence (despite your ratlike attempt to question their competence by referring to some apparent webstore issue from 10+ years ago).

Beyond that untruth, no one has said the game isn't selling anywhere. You are continuing to over-correct in an inexplicable effort to defend the health of this game.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Right. But you’re still not covering all the bases.

How many did GW make? How many did Wayland order? How many has Wayland sold on pre-order? What about the other online discount sellers?

We don’t know. And we’ll never know.
...
I’m happy to admit I’m wrong on these things, if and/or when better and greater information is available. But I’m confident the Droop Group will just flounce away on to the next moan, like nothing ever happened.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

What we’d need for any kind of accurate comparison are the production and sales numbers for 2nd and 3rd Ed.

But we’re simply never going to have those. Ever. From anyone. Except some Johnny No-Stars off of out of The Internet, who should be considered entirely suspect unless they can name, verify and evidence their source.

And so, our only conclusion? Is that GW have produced More Than Enough.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

We can conclude nothing.

There are many possible reasons why Wayland might’ve increase their discount. I’ve suggested some possibilities, and hopefully made it clear those were by no means the only possibilities.

But we’ve Bad Faith Actors in this very thread desperate to pretend their claim isn’t only The Truth, but The Only Possibility.

Again, I’m perfectly happy to be wrong, should further evidence and information come to light. Will the Droop Group do so? No. They’ll just slink off into the peanut gallery once again. Because their only interest appears to be hating a company which doesn’t even know or care that they exist, any more than said company knows or cares that I exist.

Quite easy to see your dishonest rhetoric here (and how you're the Worst Faith person on any side of this discussion). Your MO is to ask for impossible evidence (like GW production and sales numbers, or exhaustive private information about a single store) and then to say, "I'm a totally reasonable guy who'd change his totally reasonable opinion if you could only provide me with this impossible-to-acquire evidence." Except you already know your standard of evidence is bullshiit. You also hold any number of opinions that do satisfy that standard of evidence.

By your (knowingly fake ass) standard of evidence we cannot determine that, say, Warhammer Fantasy didn't sell well. We can't see GW's raw internal numbers, guess we can never know for sure!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Certainly as a trend, GW seem to have had fewer stock issues in recent months compared to recent history, going back to Indomitus.

Untrue/unproveable. You're just saying stuff you didn't verify in any way. Interesting that tons of extant HH products are still impossible to buy at the moment, though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If we take it at face value. Apologies, but career has made me a suspicious Bar Steward.

Ladies and gentlemen, The Most Skeptical Man In Wargaming (except when GW does something).

Pick a lane, learn how to evidence, then learn how to debate.

You’ve contradicted yourself at least twice there. I pointed out certain data points and evidence will never be available to us mere smelly plebs. You then base your entire claim on those, and say I’m wrong because I can’t provide them. Try. Harder. Or at least as hard as you can.

And yes. I’m incredibly skeptical, due to career. Hence I’ll continually call you out on your cherry picking bs until the cow’s come home. Via the abattoir. Because that’s how unlikely it is your cows will ever come home. Sausages and Steaks don’t count.

But. Remember. I’m perfectly happy to be wrong (another professional courtesy to the wider world. And professionally, I have been initially wrong and so adapted my view to new facts).

You?

I doubt it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


You’ve contradicted yourself at least twice there. I pointed out certain data points and evidence will never be available to us mere smelly plebs. You then base your entire claim on those, and say I’m wrong because I can’t provide them. Try. Harder. Or at least as hard as you can.

Please tell me WHAT my entire claim is.

I count like 3-4 times in this conversation where you'd completely fabricated strawmen positions on behalf of the people you're scolding. "The game is a dud" etc.

Tell me what my claim is, as you understand it.

I admit to not paying too close attention to it, but when was the last time Wayland dropped to this sort of discount on a pre-order?
And we've now had a confirmation from the owner that its a combination of an overly large order and sales not meeting expectation, so not sure what else can be said on that matter.

Some products for Middle Earth and Legions Imperialis. While I left it too late to act on that box of lovely Solar Auxilia Infantry, even 20% discount is wonderful enough.

 Pacific wrote:
I admit to not paying too close attention to it, but when was the last time Wayland dropped to this sort of discount on a pre-order?
And we've now had a confirmation from the owner that its a combination of an overly large order and sales not meeting expectation, so not sure what else can be said on that matter.

I think it's funny that that confirmation will support both poles of the argument .

"Overzealous LGS orders too much stock"
vs.
"Experienced LGS sees less demand than expected"

edit: I have never heard of any store doing an extra discount, and in fact I thought that the allowable level of discount was governed by terms of trade with GW.

Dark Sphere is also hitting the 35% discount bandwagon, so I think its safe to say this isn't just an isolated issue. I know my locals are having trouble shifting their inventory.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Anyone seeing these discounts stateside?

US trade policy is much more restrictive than in the UK. I dont expect to see anyone advertising discounts like this here in the near term.

The large online discounters in Australia have the maximum allowed discount (21%) and they have plenty in stock for pre-order.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Dark Sphere is also hitting the 35% discount bandwagon, so I think its safe to say this isn't just an isolated issue. I know my locals are having trouble shifting their inventory.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Anyone seeing these discounts stateside?

US trade policy is much more restrictive than in the UK. I dont expect to see anyone advertising discounts like this here in the near term.

IIRC with the previous GW flops, rare though they are, the US got stuck with normal price for a fair while but then everywhere started dumping stuff at massive discounts for Black Friday(likely as loss-leaders to get people into/onto their stores), so perhaps you guys will be getting even nicer deals in a few months. I have seen a few US people online withdrawing their preorders once things started looking a bit wobbly hoping for just that outcome.

I'm not going to buy into the argument over whether there is any evidence that 3rd Edition is under-performing. It's still in its pre-release phase, for a start. But I would be amazed if the online furore over the 3rd Edition changes, together with the selective appeal of the Saturnine models, doesn't make some kind of a dent in GW's projected sales. I would also guess that the more limited appeal of the Saturnine models would be the most important factor, since only a minority of customers are really engaged with what goes in online and potential new Heresy players aren't going to care about lost units or options. By contrast, my recollection of 2nd Edition's release was that the reaction to the AoD boxed set was overwhelmingly positive - even non-Heresy players were excited about it when the first leaked photos appeared. A few die-hards grumbled about the inclusion of the Spartan kit, but it was generally regarded as a great start to a Heresy army. The new boxed set just doesn't have the same broad appeal; if the Saturnine aesthetic isn't to your taste then you probably aren't going to buy the box. Personally, I think the inclusion of the gun battery was a mistake, and it should have been some kind of cool vehicle (like a land speeder, or maybe a Sabre).

The good news from my local shop HH3 related?

Full order arrived today. Nothing missing. Everyone who pre-ordered stuff will get what they ordered. And the shop is happy with the lv of stock they ordered for the shelf.

So it's not all doom & gloom.

one thing to consider here is that this is now the first big HH release after GW split the lines with 40k

40k by itself is a magnitude bigger than anything else, even other GW games, and sales from other model lines are driven to a point by their demand for 40k
With the changes the past years, using anything smaller than a Primaris for Marines fall out of favour and selling Contemptors as alternatives to the classic Dread as well.
The 2nd edition box was appealing to 40k players to a point and being the smaller game this could have still been a larger amount of sales as expected

for the 3rd Edi box, it is missing a tank, if the gun platform would have used a Rhino chassis or would have been a Whirlwind, it would appeal more while at the same time the Saturnine design itself is too big to make it an "addition" for existing army (while it is fine as focus for a new army) from a collectors point (and a gun platform that looks flat compared to the Dread in the box doesn't look good in the shelf either)

add in that the 2nd Edi box looked good to start an army with it on its own, while the 3rd Edi box is much more something you want to split because of the very different design between the models (and for a lot of people it is easier to buy the half they want off ebay over trying to find someone who wants the other half or sell the stuff they don't want)

those are all things that influence sales without taking into account that 3rd Edition got a bad reputation and negative advertising from those who are sopposed to create hype

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And yes. I’m incredibly skeptical, due to career.

And due to career, you just stop posting for a week after being wrong instead of acknowledging it in any way (they're not cutting units and options, guys)

It's possible for GW to fumble, we've seen it with the AoS 3 launch starter (discounted -30% by GW themselves, forcing retailers to match) and AoS 4 launch starter (giving palettes of it away for free)

You won't see Saturnine discounted by GW however, as unlike those boxes it's intended to be available for 3 years anyway.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

All the books are 35% off too.

Not the German ones.

Well, atleast here german ones are discounted.

It's interesting that the community always proclaims one extreme or the other for these things. Either 'roaring success' or 'DoA', but in reality it will be something on a scale in between.

If you think 2nd edition came after a very long-lived original, had possibly one of the most iconic selection of minis (a mega box of beakies! - I knew of people that bought it with no intention to play the game) and as others have said it had a lot of crossover appeal. There was such a widespread excitement about the release.
This set, despite some lovely-looking minis, I think hasn't that wide appeal. It's also expensive, and the 3-year life cycle of 2nd edition I think caught a lot of people flat-footed. We know it has caused discord amongst the veteran gamers who play HH, some of whom favour of it for previously being a port in the storm from 40k's rapid turnover. Being told you cannot play with your toys (even though partially rectified afterwards), the rules being a word-salad and not easily accessible/frightening for newcomers, again I think will not have helped.

So I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say this box will not sell as well as AoD.. but the HH community is massive (I think dwarfing other specialist games, probably ToW too) and even with the splits in community that will result of this game, the game and box will still sell in relatively good volumes.

 Pacific wrote:
I admit to not paying too close attention to it, but when was the last time Wayland dropped to this sort of discount on a pre-order?
And we've now had a confirmation from the owner that its a combination of an overly large order and sales not meeting expectation, so not sure what else can be said on that matter.

It's the first time I've ever seen it, personally, and I use to buy from them.

Not saying it has never happened before, only that I've never seen it, on preorders.

Alchemist are on track to sell through 20% of their supposed allotment in the pre-order period, which to me seems very slow.

The other was already sold out at the start of 2.0

Dark Sphere sees Waylands 35% and raises with 30% on the entire HH-range.

... And meanwhile, I have to lament the fact Wayland doesn't ship to my place anymore. :|

Your move Wayland (I suggest 40% off everything storewide).

JWBS wrote:
Your move Wayland (I suggest 40% off everything storewide).

Hi my wallet has informed me that I have to serve you notice of court action due to you causing "Critical Emotional Distress and Abuse"

Alchemist have now reduced the price to £138 according to their website, although Saturnine is still showing at £150 on the actual item page.

So that's Wayland, Darksphere and Alchemist that have reduced their price during the pre order period.

Unprecedented

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Alchemist have now reduced the price to £138 according to their website, although Saturnine is still showing at £150 on the actual item page.

So that's Wayland, Darksphere and Alchemist that have reduced their price during the pre order period.

Unprecedented

Are we there yet Mad Doc?

Not necessarily, no. We still only have online sellers having something of a price war.

We understand Wayland over ordered, but nothing to say Darksphere or Alchemists are doing anything other than keeping their pricing competitive.

Remember. I’ve not ruled anything out. My entire argument here is people are jumping to conclusions, and pretending there are no other possible explanations or factors.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not necessarily, no. We still only have online sellers having something of a price war.

We understand Wayland over ordered, but nothing to say Darksphere or Alchemists are doing anything other than keeping their pricing competitive.

Remember. I’ve not ruled anything out. My entire argument here is people are jumping to conclusions, and pretending there are no other possible explanations or factors.

I'm not going to fundamentally poo-poo your stance, I'm just curious what you might want to see that could be considered a problem really.

Obviously your threshold is higher than mine, but how much higher I suppose is the question

Honestly? I don’t know.

Locally, I’ve a couple of FLGS. One tends to carry a small selection, typically one of each box as standard stock. The other barely carries anything. Tiny shop, TCG focussed, but can order in anything I want.

So neither of those can really provide me with anything useful in terms of data/evidence. If both sell out? Well, you’re talking maybe five or six big boxes between them.

If stuff languishes on the shelf? Might be a point in support of the naysayers. But it’s still anecdotal.

Local clubs might be more useful there. If nobody is playing? Nobody is playing. I’m in contact with a couple of different clubs, so if both lack 3rd Ed players? Again, could be a point in support of the naysayers.

But there are still factors the serial whiners can’t and won’t consider. It is an expensive box, and money is tight for many folks. That they’ve not bought right now doesn’t mean they’ve no intention of buying it in the future.

As I and others have speculated earlier, it could be that due to the contents, the box isn’t seen as attractive a prospect as the 2nd Ed box.

Well, that and price, which is always a'climbing

 Altruizine wrote:


edit: I have never heard of any store doing an extra discount, and in fact I thought that the allowable level of discount was governed by terms of trade with GW.

My FLGS did this with Vermintide a week after release with the same refund in store credit for people who had already bought theirs. Incidentally, they also saw a massive uptick in AoS sales and players when they did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Anyone seeing these discounts stateside?

My FLGS is selling it for $250, which isn't too bad.

They also sell online and ship.

Once one big online seller cuts prices there is very strong pressure for all others to follow or loose business

(especially as we're still in a preorder period and cancelling an order made from a more expensive place to let you re-order from the new cheap place is going to be fairly simple)

My general take is that this release has been mismanaged.

I mean I am and am-not the target audience. I don't play Horus Heresy. I've flirted with it through 1.0, and 2.0 at least interested me as a relatively cheap (compared with old forgeworld) way to get in. It was interesting to see all the different faction rules, and the models could - at a push - be used in 40k if you wanted. I can see why the product flew off shelves relatively quickly.

By contrast, 3.0 just seems... weird? I don't know if its a function of getting old (40 next year) - but I find it really hard to follow the rules releases. Maybe its because HH and 40k have no diverged to the point of being a different language. The pitch of the various legions doesn't seem half as compelling. Then you have the models themselves which don't seem as impressive - and certainly aren't as obviously transferrable to other games.

Maybe if you are deep into HH it makes more sense - but then you presumably have an army, and another wardrobe full of basic Marines presumably isn't a big attraction.

So... yeah. I'm not sure "edition churn" is that bad - but I'm not really convinced for someone starting out this is an upgrade over 2.0.

Tyel wrote:
My general take is that this release has been mismanaged.

I mean I am and am-not the target audience. I don't play Horus Heresy. I've flirted with it through 1.0, and 2.0 at least interested me as a relatively cheap (compared with old forgeworld) way to get in. It was interesting to see all the different faction rules, and the models could - at a push - be used in 40k if you wanted. I can see why the product flew off shelves relatively quickly.

By contrast, 3.0 just seems... weird? I don't know if its a function of getting old (40 next year) - but I find it really hard to follow the rules releases. Maybe its because HH and 40k have no diverged to the point of being a different language. The pitch of the various legions doesn't seem half as compelling. Then you have the models themselves which don't seem as impressive - and certainly aren't as obviously transferrable to other games.

Maybe if you are deep into HH it makes more sense - but then you presumably have an army, and another wardrobe full of basic Marines presumably isn't a big attraction.

So... yeah. I'm not sure "edition churn" is that bad - but I'm not really convinced for someone starting out this is an upgrade over 2.0.

It's not due to your age, rules release-fatigue is a universal thing regardless of age. It's the main reason I quit 40k, AoS, Underworlds as I just couldn't keep up with the sheer volume of releases and rules changes.

Definitely in a similar boat to yourself. Flirted with HH across the various editions, even have a few characters and stuff in a "maybe someday" stash but 3.0 isn't grabbing me the same way as previous editions. It's also due to the desire to have rulebooks in hand that aren't outdated so quickly.

What they had here - minus the Dreadnought and Quad-turret - was the contents of a board game, like Calth or Prospero.

30K itself would have been better off with a new soft-edition that's backwards compatible with 2nd edition rules.

On top of release fatigue and any specific preference-related issues one might have with the 3.0 design choices, there's the fact that the 3.0 rules are just kind of tiring to read. They're written like contract law documents and we pay people thousands of pounds to read those for us because they're so mind-numbing, so an entire ruleset written in that way is hardly an appealing prospect.

2.5 with what is essentially an integrated FAQ is all that Heresy needed. New models have been released with campaign books, including plastics like Solar Aux.

Saturnine should have been a campaign supplement, not a whole new edition.

^Agreed. Heresy was low maintenance and that was part of its appeal. 1-2 books/yr, and a periodic FOMO box. Wasnt a big hit on my wallet, wasnt a mental drain to keep up with it, didnt feel like a chase, etc. Now theyve already announced the next journal and the first one hasnt even released yet. Its a big jump in how aggressive they are about pushing the game and im starting to think im going to have to cut back on one of these games because its not sustainable to try to play them all anymore.

chaos0xomega wrote:
^Agreed. Heresy was low maintenance and that was part of its appeal. 1-2 books/yr, and a periodic FOMO box. Wasnt a big hit on my wallet, wasnt a mental drain to keep up with it, didnt feel like a chase, etc. Now theyve already announced the next journal and the first one hasnt even released yet. Its a big jump in how aggressive they are about pushing the game and im starting to think im going to have to cut back on one of these games because its not sustainable to try to play them all anymore.

Aside from the fluff changes I wasn't a fan of, this was also why I eventually just gave up on Nucromunda. GW can never seem to settle into a happy medium, it's either stuff gets left as abandonware for years on end or everything's a constant machinegun of Content(tm) that endlessly upends the status quo and makes even houseruling etc difficult because there's no stable base to work from and nobody has enough time to figure out what the actual problems are before the next Thing is being touted(which some people inexplicably continue believing will fix things *this* time). I suppose they have to be given credit for at least choosing one mode - slopstream - over the other rather than their old way of slopstream for popular armies and stagnation for the rest.

Heresy was the last "supported" GW game I play having already withdrawn to old editions of the SGs, WHFB, and 40K(and AT, which is functionally a "dead" game now it's subordinate to LIgma) and I suspect my 30K habits will follow suit now. It's a shame but hey, if GW don't want my money I'm happy to give it to third parties, STL sculptors, and myself to build terrain.

GW is stepping over pounds to get to pence....

Found that i buy more stuff when left to my own devices rather than being "TOLD" that I need to buy more.

Low maintenance was the MAIN appeal for me. Dumping 40k for 30k was an immense relief and I was genuinely excited for 2.0 when it dropped and spent a chunk o' change on new stuff.(most is assembled waiting for paint). Played a ton of games, different events and enjoyed both my IIIrd & XVIIITH and had just started on a Slanneshi Militia & daemons list....

3.0 landed like a wet fart in church for me and now has taken any interest in the game to basically negative amounts.

chaos0xomega wrote:
^Agreed. Heresy was low maintenance and that was part of its appeal. 1-2 books/yr, and a periodic FOMO box. Wasnt a big hit on my wallet, wasnt a mental drain to keep up with it, didnt feel like a chase, etc. Now theyve already announced the next journal and the first one hasnt even released yet. Its a big jump in how aggressive they are about pushing the game and im starting to think im going to have to cut back on one of these games because its not sustainable to try to play them all anymore.

Reading this captures how I feel. I've got plenty of models to keep me going for 1st and 2nd editions of the rules. Baring the odd purchase, I'm off the treadmill. I'll stick with Epic Scale and Necromunda as my last hook to GW for now.

I've spent the last three weeks actively scouring eBay and other sale sites and I haven't seen a spike in the number of HH armies for sale.

Based upon what I've read on various threads on a few sites, I was expecting a giant angry model sell off... so far, it looks like the usual volume.

People might not be happy but they aren't abandoning ship; they just aren't getting on the new one as fast as GW and stores were hoping.

What's likely happening is people dislike a lot of the changes and want to see more solid information not just pre-release info. So more are sitting on the fence. Furthermore they are more likely to just drift into another game and come back to 30K or stick to the current edition and not step up to the new one.

It's the one defence of the 3 year cycle that you can say if GW mucks it up this bad at least in 3 years they might fix it

 Overread wrote:
People might not be happy but they aren't abandoning ship; they just aren't getting on the new one as fast as GW and stores were hoping.

What's likely happening is people dislike a lot of the changes and want to see more solid information not just pre-release info. So more are sitting on the fence. Furthermore they are more likely to just drift into another game and come back to 30K or stick to the current edition and not step up to the new one.

It's the one defence of the 3 year cycle that you can say if GW mucks it up this bad at least in 3 years they might fix it

Yeah, I hardly ever sell off minis any more. It's easier to just hold onto them and later either dust everything off or strip and reuse it for a new army idea.

My Iron Warriors got packed up when I bought a new house last year, they're still sitting in the packing boxes and probably will for a while.

Honestly I think the only time we've seen people abandon models en-mass (not just mothball a game in storage) is when the Old World was killed off.

Before that you've a few other game kills offs like Epic 40K and such where I suspect we also saw it, but probably way less because those were in the infancy of the internet so we didn't have the rapid larger scale information exchange that we do now

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I think the only time we've seen people abandon models en-mass (not just mothball a game in storage) is when the Old World was killed off.

Before that you've a few other game kills offs like Epic 40K and such where I suspect we also saw it, but probably way less because those were in the infancy of the internet so we didn't have the rapid larger scale information exchange that we do now

They also would not have been able to find anyone to buy their stuff without the internet.

Those collections would've been for the attics.

Personal view here.
I am off the HH rules treadmill.
I have the books I need for 2.0, and I have a complete pdf library of the 1.0 as well.
There is little I need to purchase direct from GW to keep going with my Slow Grow Legions of Imperial Fists and Word Bearers projects.
Beyond any plastic versions of existing things, I won't buy anything new. Definitely no books.

But my projects are mine.
Whether they see gameplay or not, I will keep going with them when I want a break from other universes/eras, or a particular book inspires me again.
So no, I wouldn't expect to see firesales from dissatisfied HH players.

I would expect the most disgruntled would form splinter groups and events in the ruleset they prefer.
Heresy is already such a departure from mainline 40k, separated from the meta chasing of the tournament crowd.
It's much easier to continue and ignore pressure from GW itself to change rulesets.
As others have said, the low maintenance aspect is part of the appeal.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I've spent the last three weeks actively scouring eBay and other sale sites and I haven't seen a spike in the number of HH armies for sale.

Based upon what I've read on various threads on a few sites, I was expecting a giant angry model sell off... so far, it looks like the usual volume.

People dump 40k armies because they buy into the Meta (lmao) and then get rid of it because the Meta (again lmao) changes.
People dumped WHFB armies because either real or imagined, the game and the setting had lost full support from GW.

Heresy is still getting new models and new lore, that's all things people can still invest in, even if they hate the rules.

So many factors at play here - who know how many play into what we are or are not seeing?

But it is fun to speculate.

And for someone to tell me where to get 30% - 35% off in the USA, please!

Also, I do love the Saturnine stuff but WHOA, the Scale Creep is real!

Ok, so you still remain unconviced about the chatter I reported about earlier. Fair enough. I suppose I wont be vindicated until you see AOS levels of surplus stock in the stores. Lets get back to this in a few weeks.

My intuition tells me that GW sales are highly concentrated to the first weeks around preorder and release. If significant amount of product doesn't ship by that time, new shiny will already have taken its place and overall sales will be significantly lessened. This is why we're seeing these discounts now. But hey, these are just my personal musings, I've never been a GW till monkey or anything

 Alpharius wrote:
Also, I do love the Saturnine stuff but WHOA, the Scale Creep is real!

Shoulder embiggening technology stops for no man!

Remeber my Words, TOW will see tbhis in 1-2 two Years too... I can see it, and i don't like it.

Maybe in 5 Years, maybe in 10 Years. GW will sooner or later shoot themself into the Leg with their even faster and faster going release mill und thinning down of their Rulesets.... They also can't sell new Stuff to new People for eternity and all time...

I stay wqith 2nd Edition HH, I stay mit LI.

Completely unfounded but Ive heard that GW retailers typically buy their stock at 45% off RRP.
If trends don't reverse course we might feasibly see 40% off from retailers wanting to recoup losses, especially if there's any boxes left by Black Friday.

RazorEdge wrote:
Remeber my Words, TOW will see tbhis in 1-2 two Years too... I can see it, and i don't like it.

that we are going to see a 2nd Edition with a purge on legacy to make room for the very new armies (and current legacy are removed and current old armies become legacy and being removed in 3rd) was obvious early on
something like this should not be a surprise, more like the other way around that if it doesn't happen

Tyel wrote:
Maybe its because HH and 40k have no diverged to the point of being a different language. The pitch of the various legions doesn't seem half as compelling. Then you have the models themselves which don't seem as impressive - and certainly aren't as obviously transferrable to other games.

Maybe if you are deep into HH it makes more sense - but then you presumably have an army, and another wardrobe full of basic Marines presumably isn't a big attraction.

I was in the group of wanting HH 2.0 to be more like 9th edition 40k at the time, as I liked how streamlined it was over 1.0 HH. I also would have preferred that HH 3.0 be more like 10th edition, which I very much enjoy. Alas, we got what looks like a more complicated edition to HH 2.0 at initial glance.

My main army is relatively untouched. I can still take my 3500+ points of Imperial Fists to AdeptiCon as is and play in games of 1500-3000 with few changes. However, I've lost any enthusiasm to finish my Sons of Horus. I'll add the new Dreadnought to my IFs and maybe some terminators. I guess I'm in the cranky Old Timers group mentioned a few pages back. I'll play it, but grudgingly. Because that's what my friends at AdeptiCon are probably doing.

As for the sales, I'm not surprised. 2.0 did have a lot of enthusiasm at the time of release, and I saw more and more new players each year at AdeptiCon. 3.0 seemed to be met with a loud chorus of "Huh?" "What?" Just my anecdotal observations. I'll share my experiences at AdeptiCon next year. I still hope we continue to draw more players. The events there are run very well, at any rate.

Da Boss wrote:I was strongly tempted by the age of darkness box because it seemed like a great deal. I held off because I don't really need more marines and the tank though cool is imo impractically huge, but I did consider buying it a good few times.

With this box I was honestly never that interested. I like the armour on the marines more in this one, but I dislike the Saturnine designs on everything but the dreadnaught and hate the scale creep involved, and I'm not at all interested in gun turrets. Even if I liked that stuff, I still felt it was a worse deal than Age of Darkness, and knowing it's joining the 3 year threadmill makes my perception of the value of the rulebook drop quite a lot (whereas before I saw Heresy as a "stable" game, albeit using an edition of 40K I had negative memories of).

So it's not unbelievable to me that people are just cool on this box because it doesn't represent good value to them.

Hey, you stole my back story!

I really like almost everything in the HH 2.0 box. Goes back to my RTB-01 beakies I've still got stashed away.
If it had been a LR Proteus instead of the Spartan I probably would have bought it already. The FLGS has a couple in stock, maybe they'll mark it down now.

The new box though, hard pass. I'm not thrilled by what I've heard about the new rules, really not thrilled about the 3 year treadmill. Don't like the Saturnine anything, and neutral on the Mk II armour. Also not happy that they seem to have stopped selling the rules in ebooks, and removed the Horus Heresy section entirely from Warhammer Digital.

I bought one of each of the HH boardgames, which means I already have a fair number of guys, but I bought two of the HH 2.0 starters too, and I printed a bunch of Mk IIs already, so I guess I was pretty insulated, and then the 3.0 news started to drip...

Did you get any of these

Nah, I already had enough

I decided to join the holding pattern as I realize that the Armiger tax of 2.0 is going to be replaced with near mandatory Mechanicum Allied forces in 3.0.

I wonder if Warhammer stores will be handing out a Heresy Marine next month as their free model.

They'd need to give a whole sprue at this point

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I decided to join the holding pattern as I realize that the Armiger tax of 2.0 is going to be replaced with near mandatory Mechanicum Allied forces in 3.0.

I wonder if Warhammer stores will be handing out a Heresy Marine next month as their free model.

The mech detahment that is conveniently 50% sold out resin units no less

 Albertorius wrote:
Nah, I already had enough

You already what

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Nah, I already had enough

You already what

Crazy, I know!

Dudeface wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I decided to join the holding pattern as I realize that the Armiger tax of 2.0 is going to be replaced with near mandatory Mechanicum Allied forces in 3.0.

I wonder if Warhammer stores will be handing out a Heresy Marine next month as their free model.

The mech detahment that is conveniently 50% sold out resin units no less

If I can figure out how to build it, I will take my less-than-legitimate Warhound Titan, some Secutarii (aka Skitarii with different guns) and some Knights and call it a day.

If I was to start on a Knight/Titan army right now, I'd go with a Heretic Titan and a shedload of Dark Mechanicum technozombies. I alredy thought of a headcanon for it, where the Princeps turns their captured enemies into more footsoldiers. Loads of kitbash potential for the thralls.

Something about min-maxing turned up to elevensies feels very 40K to me (A God of War followed by a horde). Like that Krieg army I was planning, which would have been all infantry plus one superheav tank. You know the logistics of Astra Militarum right? The Kriegsmen were crawling in mud for years.. asked for a tank, and this is what they got

I still might do a Heretical army like that though.. in LI scale (where kitbashing thralls obviously wont be an option but yeh)

Do they lift the lord of war point cap for knight amd titan armies?

New Heresy toys arrive tomorrow. But, moving house in four weeks, and need to start sifting through stuff.

So I think I’ll be retrieving a rulebook, but otherwise leaving the big boxes untouched,

Horus Heresy downloads – Talons of the Emperor and errata

The roster of units available to Horus Heresy generals will expand further in a few days’ time, when the Legacies of the Age of Darkness arrives as a free PDF download. This extensive document features the rules and points for dozens of classic units, updated for the new edition of the game.

Talons PDF
FAQ

Welcome back Tartaros Power Fists lol.

 Gert wrote:
Welcome back Tartaros Power Fists lol.

And Gorgon combi-bolters! (Now give us the other options back!)

As expected, Custodian guard lost all of their weapon options that weren't in the box
Also, pre release 7 page faq/errata is just crazy.

Well Tartaros terminators got their fists back if anything else.

Also, all Auxilia Malcadors got their point costs dropped. Basic variant 45, others 25-30.

RIP Sisters of Silence. Dunno how many people actually converted all of those units from 2e but they lost all their flavor.

 CragHack wrote:
As expected, Custodian guard lost all of their weapon options that weren't in the box
Also, pre release 7 page faq/errata is just crazy.

Uh, they still have the forgeworld spears?

Sisters of Silence are in a strange spot. GW clearly likes them as they've appeared in video presentations and such - but to date they still have the smallest army range GW has ever done.

There's basically nothing there for them and more surprising is that GW kept them separated and their own thing and didn't just roll them into the Custodes army.



In some ways this new HH reminds me of that 4-6 or 7th edition era of 40K when GW was adding more options and heroes and such to armies but not giving them models. Which all blew up when Chapterhouse hit.
Just that instead of a steady whittling down, GW have gone 100% heavy handed all in one go (with the predictable backlash). I can't honestly be totally against the move but I do feel like they should have done it against a slew of new kits coming out at once - not just one boxed set for launch but a good dozen new kits/updated kits.

chaos0xomega wrote:
RIP Sisters of Silence. Dunno how many people actually converted all of those units from 2e but they lost all their flavor.

 CragHack wrote:
As expected, Custodian guard lost all of their weapon options that weren't in the box
Also, pre release 7 page faq/errata is just crazy.

Uh, they still have the forgeworld spears?

Yes, FW spears are still there. They've gotten better, but now Custodes have 0 options to tackle vehicles (no ability to purchase melta bombs) outside that.

Picked up a few Saturnine terminators from resellers. Looking forward to building them, using the journals to build more and then having them invalidated in 3 years.

 Overread wrote:
Sisters of Silence are in a strange spot. GW clearly likes them as they've appeared in video presentations and such - but to date they still have the smallest army range GW has ever done.

There's basically nothing there for them and more surprising is that GW kept them separated and their own thing and didn't just roll them into the Custodes army.



In some ways this new HH reminds me of that 4-6 or 7th edition era of 40K when GW was adding more options and heroes and such to armies but not giving them models. Which all blew up when Chapterhouse hit.
Just that instead of a steady whittling down, GW have gone 100% heavy handed all in one go (with the predictable backlash). I can't honestly be totally against the move but I do feel like they should have done it against a slew of new kits coming out at once - not just one boxed set for launch but a good dozen new kits/updated kits.

I don't think they needed to do it at all. Chapterhouse is basically an unknown to most present hobbyists. They've shot themselves in the foot and really cut off a massive section of the hobby for a lot of people. Any sales they lose to 3rd party will be completely dwarfed by 3D printing now anyway. GW need to concentrate on retaining people but their behaviour inspires very little loyalty. It's entirely brand strength and they're slowly eroding that too.

Can anyone decipher this?

"The Vanguard (X) Special Rule
Change the second bullet point included as part of this
Special Rule to read as follows:
• If a Unit that includes a majority of Models with the
Vanguard (X) Special Rule has at least one attack made
for it in a Combat that results in one or more enemy
Units that had at least one Model within 3" of an
Objective at the start of that Assault Phase either Falling
Back from Combat or being Massacred."

Delete the ‘Melee’ Trait from the Basic Close Combat Weapon Profile.

The Basic Close Combat Weapon is a Melee Weapon.

Glad that this stupid mistake was fixed right away

 Nicorex wrote:
Can anyone decipher this?

"The Vanguard (X) Special Rule
Change the second bullet point included as part of this
Special Rule to read as follows:
• If a Unit that includes a majority of Models with the
Vanguard (X) Special Rule has at least one attack made
for it in a Combat that results in one or more enemy
Units that had at least one Model within 3" of an
Objective at the start of that Assault Phase either Falling
Back from Combat or being Massacred."

If your Vanguard unit attacks an enemy within 3" of an objective and target Falls Back or is wiped out, you get X victory points.

I guess the original wording is the important part; does it say they all have to have vanguard? Like is this clarifying what happens when a character without vanguard joins a unit with it (like an assault squad)?

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I guess the original wording is the important part; does it say they all have to have vanguard? Like is this clarifying what happens when a character without vanguard joins a unit with it (like an assault squad)?

The original wording has the Majority part but it only calls out Falling Back. This adds "or being massacred". The original wording nets you no points for killing the opponent, now it does.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Do they lift the lord of war point cap for knight amd titan armies?

Not sure: this is everything I know about Titans.

And the super lame bit about how you can't use them in regular games. You can only use them in "Engine Kill" Missions.

You know what, I actually don't mind that. A Titan is a curveball if you whap one out at an event.

Engine Kill missions also give the Titan more to do than just smash my dudes into teensy tiny ickle pieces. They’ve off-board targets to take out as one example.

I’m sufficiently interested to want to try one, especially as a non-Titan owner myself.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Do they lift the lord of war point cap for knight amd titan armies?

Not sure: this is everything I know about Titans.

And the super lame bit about how you can't use them in regular games. You can only use them in "Engine Kill" Missions.

You can use them in regular games via that first option of using it to fill your Primary LoW detachment. It's only if you want to use the Titanicus Primary Detachment that you have to play Engine Kill.

Day -1 faq is wild. Why would anybody pay GW for books anymore?

I expect those Libers will sell even worse than the starter set.

 Tamereth wrote:
Day -1 faq is wild. Why would anybody pay GW for books anymore?

Not the first time it's happened. Won't be the last.

GW seem to struggle to recruit a wide group of playtesters who won't leak stuff...

 Tamereth wrote:
Day -1 faq is wild. Why would anybody pay GW for books anymore?

I expect those Libers will sell even worse than the starter set.

I find this to be quite amusing.


Just reinforces my decision to stay with 2.0.

 Nicorex wrote:
Can anyone decipher this?

"The Vanguard (X) Special Rule
Change the second bullet point included as part of this
Special Rule to read as follows:
• If a Unit that includes a majority of Models with the
Vanguard (X) Special Rule has at least one attack made
for it in a Combat that results in one or more enemy
Units that had at least one Model within 3" of an
Objective at the start of that Assault Phase either Falling
Back from Combat or being Massacred."

Please tell me how something like this gets printed. Jesus H Christ, I thought the rules in Legions Imperialis were badly written.